Ex-wife sleeps with 13 year old son in the same bed

[BlueEyedLady]

Contemporary America, in its stubborn naivety, has also been known to normalize some things that are plainly inappropriate, not to mention some which are plainly disordered.

NAMBLA, anyone?

I would just like to point out that NAMBLA was never normalized. It was a small, fringe group that is now defunct. At its very best it was a joke for the rest of western society, at worst it was one of the most reviled organizations to ever grace the earth.

 

[KellyPalmer]

This is not about what skirt length is modest or whether beards should be trimmed or not. This primordial stuff! Secular society even gets this one! What, you think the story of Oedipus was made up by some up-tight Catholics?

Research around and get back to us when you find an actual society where the teen-aged boys sleep up against their mothers. If you can find even one, I’ll find a hundred where the teen boys wouldn’t be caught dead sleeping near the older women, at least not those who are under about 75 yo, let alone cuddled up with Mom. There are psycho-physiological reasons for that.

“Up against their mothers”…“cuddled up with Mom”…a bit exaggerated, eh? Pretty much every civilization up until modern times – 13 year olds did not sleep alone. What do you want from this child? The poor thing has undergone trauma at the hands of parents who didn’t put his needs first despite the fact that he had less abilities to cope as a child with an underdeveloped brain. It’s terrible what children of broken homes have to go through. Making him sleep alone is going to help how? There’s no need to be “up against someone” when you share a bed. It’s giving security to the child…a child that need that now perhaps more than ever. Would it be possible for you to research and get back to us with the studies showing that bed-sharing with a parent at age 13 is harmful?

 

[KellyPalmer]

Contemporary America, in its stubborn naivety, has also been known to normalize some things that are plainly inappropriate, not to mention some which are plainly disordered.

NAMBLA, anyone?

Sure, that’s very true. I think that’s the case with expecting children to sleep alone.

 

[KellyPalmer]

EasterJoy, this book has a “Look Inside” feature on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Our-Babies-Ourselves-Biology-Culture/dp/0385483627. If you check it out, there are anthropological details about sleep habits around the world. It states that Japanese parents sleep with their children into the teenage years and never expect anyone in the household to sleep alone. Just one example.

 

[EasterJoy]

“Up against their mothers”…“cuddled up with Mom”…a bit exaggerated, eh? Pretty much every civilization up until modern times – 13 year olds did not sleep alone. What do you want from this child? The poor thing has undergone trauma at the hands of parents who didn’t put his needs first despite the fact that he had less abilities to cope as a child with an underdeveloped brain. It’s terrible what children of broken homes have to go through. Making him sleep alone is going to help how? There’s no need to be “up against someone” when you share a bed. It’s giving security to the child…a child that need that now perhaps more than ever. Would it be possible for you to research and get back to us with the studies showing that bed-sharing with a parent at age 13 is harmful?

A) There is a world of difference between sleeping alone and sleeping with your mother.

B) This particular 13 year old is living in a society where none of his friends sleep with their mothers, their sisters, their aunts, or their grandmas. He’s in his society, a society like many others in the course of history–and I would argue the vast majority of societies–both Western, Eastern, Northern, and Southern, not in some society that you cannot name, a society where a boy his age would have been ceremoniously removed from his mother by now. In our own society, there are more boys being sexually abused by their mothers than there are sleeping innocently with their mothers on a nightly basis.(Again: Find a single mental health care professional or sociologist or anyone else on the planet not pulling these family sleeping mats out of their imaginations who says otherwise!!

Thirteen year olds do not gain security by sleeping with their parents. They gain security by being assured that they can sleep without their parents. Find me a man who says it was otherwise for him when he was thirteen…just one!

Even such a man could not deny: The boy could sleep with his brother. I had hoped not to get vivid, but the boy should be spared the experience of being in bed with his mother when he has his first nocturnal emission. Better to go through that with big bro in attendance.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

This is not about what skirt length is modest or whether beards should be trimmed or not. This primordial stuff! Secular society even gets this one! What, you think the story of Oedipus was made up by some up-tight Catholics?

Research around and get back to us when you find an actual society where the teen-aged boys sleep up against their mothers. If you can find even one, I’ll find a hundred where the teen boys wouldn’t be caught dead sleeping near the older women, at least not those who are under about 75 yo, let alone cuddled up with Mom. There are psycho-physiological reasons for that.

India and Thailand immediately come to my mind. I’ve personally shared multi-generational sleeping quarters with Thai families where grandparents, parents, kids (including teenagers), babies, and maids all slept on shared sleeping mats in one room.

In Calcutta I visited an Anglo-Indian Catholic family who all slept in the same room - parents and the kiddos - even though all the kids had their own bedrooms. They just preferred to sleep together.

 

[EasterJoy]

India and Thailand immediately come to my mind. I’ve personally shared multi-generational sleeping quarters with Thai families where grandparents, parents, kids (including teenagers), babies, and maids all slept on shared sleeping mats in one room.

In Calcutta I visited an Anglo-Indian Catholic family who all slept in the same room - parents and the kiddos - even though all the kids had their own bedrooms. They just preferred to sleep together.

His 15 year old brother isn’t there, and neither is his grandma. They’re sleeping alone.

That cannot be forgotten: This is not a family bed. This is Mom and one boy who is just approaching puberty. Big difference.

 

[robotsarecool]

As someone who has had the misfortune of having incest in her family, I have insight many may lack. Generally sexual abuse of children does not start out of the blue. There is generally a build up to it (commonly called grooming). I don’t know what is happening in this situation, but the situation is fishy. Also I know that sometimes after divorce, sometimes parents end up having one of their children be a “surrogate spouse”. I have seen this happen as well. Also with a child of the age of puberty, hormones are raging and it can lead to confusing situations even with family members. Sometimes siblings end up “messing around” (this happened with my husbands two younger siblings), sometimes children develop sexual feelings for family members especially when you are sharing a room or bed.

 

[KellyPalmer]

A) There is a world of difference between sleeping alone and sleeping with your mother.

B) This particular 13 year old is living in a society where none of his friends sleep with their mothers, their sisters, their aunts, or their grandmas. He’s in his society, a society like many others in the course of history–and I would argue the vast majority of societies–both Western, Eastern, Northern, and Southern, not in some society that you cannot name, a society where a boy his age would have been ceremoniously removed from his mother by now. In our own society, there are more boys being sexually abused by their mothers than there are sleeping innocently with their mothers on a nightly basis.(Again: Find a single mental health care professional or sociologist or anyone else on the planet not pulling these family sleeping mats out of their imaginations who says otherwise!!

Thirteen year olds do not gain security by sleeping with their parents. They gain security by being assured that they can sleep without their parents. Find me a man who says it was otherwise for him when he was thirteen…just one!

Even such a man could not deny: The boy could sleep with his brother. I had hoped not to get vivid, but the boy should be spared the experience of being in bed with his mother when he has his first nocturnal emission. Better to go through that with big bro in attendance.

A. It sounds like there aren’t a lot of other options. If they had a big Catholic family, there would be lots of other options but a broken home and 1 sibling doesn’t leave much. I have no idea if they explored the idea of the 2 brother sleeping together but given our culture, there’s a good chance the 15yo didn’t want to. Either way…I just don’t see a problem with him sleeping in the same bed with his mom or his 15 yo brother.

B. You haven’t proven that none of his friends sleep with a female relative and even if that’s the case, so what? Sorry but I see no value in conforming to a society on arbitrary matters such as this. Romans 12:12 tells us not to be conformed the ways of this world. As a mother, I would be way more concerned about the needs of my child than whether it was what his friends were doing. Again, I refer you to the book that I linked earlier. In it, the author names 50 different cultures where all the children (boys and girls) sleep with the mother and the father sleeps in a different location. This whole sleeping separately thing didn’t start happening until about 200 years ago.

I don’t think you’ve proven that a 13 yo can’t gain security by sleeping in the same bed with his mother. Assuring someone that they can do something doesn’t mean that they actually can with any level of security. Just stating something doesn’t make it a fact. But this tends to be the American way of parenting. I applaud the OP’s ex-wife for thinking differently there.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

“Up against their mothers”…“cuddled up with Mom”…a bit exaggerated, eh? Pretty much every civilization up until modern times – 13 year olds did not sleep alone. What do you want from this child? The poor thing has undergone trauma at the hands of parents who didn’t put his needs first despite the fact that he had less abilities to cope as a child with an underdeveloped brain. It’s terrible what children of broken homes have to go through. Making him sleep alone is going to help how? There’s no need to be “up against someone” when you share a bed. It’s giving security to the child…a child that need that now perhaps more than ever. Would it be possible for you to research and get back to us with the studies showing that bed-sharing with a parent at age 13 is harmful?

In our culture, in this country, SIBLINGS may have slept in the same bed, head-to-foot, but that was a condition mainly of poverty. The parents did not sleep with the children unless it was some kind of dire situation.

Look, it really doesn’t matter what any other culture does or did at any point in history. The OP is uncomfortable with this and feels it is inappropriate. It is HIS SON, and HIS CALL. Most of us understand why he is uncomfortable, because we would, too. Neither one of my sons would have joined me in bed when they were 13. This is ABNORMAL for this family and for most families. We just don’t do it.

Why people have to justify ANY possible behavior here on CAF…I just don’t get it.

 

[KellyPalmer]

In our culture, in this country, SIBLINGS may have slept in the same bed, head-to-foot, but that was a condition mainly of poverty. The parents did not sleep with the children unless it was some kind of dire situation.

Look, it really doesn’t matter what any other culture does or did at any point in history. The OP is uncomfortable with this and feels it is inappropriate. It is HIS SON, and HIS CALL. Most of us understand why he is uncomfortable, because we would, too. Neither one of my sons would have joined me in bed when they were 13. This is ABNORMAL for this family and for most families. We just don’t do it.

Why people have to justify ANY possible behavior here on CAF…I just don’t get it.

I disagree. It’s not his call. He divorced his wife and when their son is in her custody, it’s HER call. It’s unfortunate that you don’t get it but I think if you put some effort into understanding, you would. If people can come on here in an outrage about this, other can post that they think it’s fine. It’s especially important for those of us on this side of the fence to comment b/c there have been talks about contacting CPS and a lawyer. What a terrible thing to do to his family!!! Over something that is not harmful. You and I will just have to agree to disagree but I am free to post my comments even if you don’t get it. I feel it’s important to do so.

 

[KellyPalmer]

In our culture, in this country, SIBLINGS may have slept in the same bed, head-to-foot, but that was a condition mainly of poverty. The parents did not sleep with the children unless it was some kind of dire situation.

Also, this is inconsistent with the research that I have done. Can you please provide a source for this claim?

 

[terrig]

Well, as the mom of a son with ADHD, they are delayed at least 18 mos. chronologically, but that doesn’t apply to their bodies. Their bodies mature at the same rate as their peers. Their mental and emotional maturation is much slower. Which makes for a very difficult and tricky time when they reach the outward age of 15 and it’s time to learn to drive…Just imagine handing the keys to a 13 year old!

.

Interesting. My 6 year-old grandson has ADHD and he seems less mature for his age too. I didn’t realize it could be as much as 18 mos.

 

[mafh]

I disagree. It’s not his call. He divorced his wife and when their son is in her custody, it’s HER call. It’s unfortunate that you don’t get it but I think if you put some effort into understanding, you would. If people can come on here in an outrage about this, other can post that they think it’s fine. It’s especially important for those of us on this side of the fence to comment b/c there have been talks about contacting CPS and a lawyer. What a terrible thing to do to his family!!! Over something that is not harmful. You and I will just have to agree to disagree but I am free to post my comments even if you don’t get it. I feel it’s important to do so.

I think you need to calm down a bit. We are all responding to the OP’s specific situation. Co-sleeping can be perfectly fine, or it can be a red flag, depending on the circumstances. In this specific situation, we have a single female parent co-sleeping with a male child on the cusp of puberty, another older child in the house who is not co-sleeping, and an absence of a cultural or familial tradition of co-sleeping. Futhermore, we know that the co-sleeping child has other problems, that he is requesting this of his mother, and that the mother may not have great parenting skills. It is quite a different situation from, say, a happy, functional family comprised of co-sleeping mother, father, an 8-year-old, and a 10-year-old, especially when the family is from a co-sleeping culture. Context matters a great deal.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Interesting. My 6 year-old grandson has ADHD and he seems less mature for his age too. I didn’t realize it could be as much as 18 mos.

It’s usually at least one chronological year. It becomes more evident as they go through elementary years. The funny thing is that you will sometimes see older students with ADD or ADHD befriend the ADHD student a year or two under their grade. And then the younger one will step up and act a little more mature, so they kind of meet in the middle of their ages. For example, one of my older son’s classmates really hit it off with my younger son, who was 2 years under her class. This can be a beneficial relationship for both students. Hmmmmm…that makes me wonder if a mentor program might work…just for students with ADD/ADHD…interesting thought.

Some people have good success with social classes, but depending on where you are located, these can be hard to find, and harder to drag your kid to. Obviously, it’s going to take a LOT of work for them to “get” the simple lessons we all absorb without effort, such as table manners and not interrupting others or being a nuisance. It takes a LOT of repetition, which takes a lot of patience!

As I said earlier, it can be challenging for a teen with ADHD. They are less mature emotionally, can be very vulnerable to teasing and bullying, yet they want to fit in with their peers and have privileges such as driving. I told my younger son that he very likely would NOT be ready for driver training at 15 and that I would make that decision when the time came, so he was somewhat prepared for it. He happened to be in the throes of rebellion at that point, so driving was completely off the table. In fact, he just got his first license at age 18, as a senior in high school. I have no regrets about holding back on driving.

Well, this is OT and I apologize to Armor of Light. But I was getting annoyed with the response to his problem anyway, especially since he already got what he needed and will take action based on his knowledge of his ex-wife and his son.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

His 15 year old brother isn’t there, and neither is his grandma. They’re sleeping alone.

That cannot be forgotten: This is not a family bed. This is Mom and one boy who is just approaching puberty. Big difference.

I was answering this: Research around and get back to us when you find an actual society where the teen-aged boys sleep up against their mothers. Yes, I have lived in situations where teenagers sleep with their mothers. “Up against” I don’t know about, but I have lived in and traveled in societies where there is nothing untoward with adolescents sharing close sleeping quarters with family of the opposite sex.

In the end, though, it doesn’t matter one bit how other societies or even other families in this society arrange their sleep. What matters is that the OP’s son is safe.

And to that end, none of us has the whole story. Hashing out whether one situation is abuse or incest or both based what one anonymous party says online is unproductive. The only people who would be in a position to make that determination - to get at what’s really going on here - and take any kind of authoritative action if it’s needed, are trained professionals who have who have access to everyone involved: the child, the mom, and the dad.

To the OP: If you suspect there is something fishy happening at mom’s house, you need to share everything you know with your attorney and follow your attorney’s advice to the letter. If you know your son is being abused at mom’s house - he tells you that mom touches him or whatever - contact the police, social services, and your attorney ASAP.

Luna

 

[KellyPalmer]

I think you need to calm down a bit. We are all responding to the OP’s specific situation. Co-sleeping can be perfectly fine, or it can be a red flag, depending on the circumstances. In this specific situation, we have a single female parent co-sleeping with a male child on the cusp of puberty, another older child in the house who is not co-sleeping, and an absence of a cultural or familial tradition of co-sleeping. Futhermore, we know that the co-sleeping child has other problems, that he is requesting this of his mother, and that the mother may not have great parenting skills. It is quite a different situation from, say, a happy, functional family comprised of co-sleeping mother, father, an 8-year-old, and a 10-year-old, especially when the family is from a co-sleeping culture. Context matters a great deal.

I disagree with the majority of your assertions. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking for this in any context except for one where the parent should not have any custody with a child which is not the case here. The only reason I have possibly given you to single me out and request that I calm down is the use of exclamation marks after recalling that there has been much talk about calling CPS and hiring a lawyer. And that was after being ridiculously questioned about why I have to give my opinion. You haven’t given me any reason to change the way I feel about that.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

All true.

Yes. Upon careful consideration and the good advice you people have given I have decided that a conversation directly with him is the way to go. I can’t be there to help enforce it, but I will inform her that we have had a talk and I fully support her efforts to deny him this request if it comes up again. He has always been a couple of years behind in maturity it seems…not just after the divorce. Thanks you guys!

I need your (name removed by moderator)ut and conscience check as I do not have any friends.

Thought at this point that quoting Armor of Light (the OP) would put an end to the debate. He states that he will talk to his son and his ex wife about the issue.

He got what he needed and is doing what makes sense for his family.

 

[terrig]

In our culture, in this country, SIBLINGS may have slept in the same bed, head-to-foot, but that was a condition mainly of poverty. The parents did not sleep with the children unless it was some kind of dire situation.

Agree with you. My siblings and I both slept with our parents due to poverty and culture. It’s common in Mexican culture for children to sleep with their parents but only when they are small. I slept with my sister till I left home. My brothers slept together in the same bed too. My parents didn’t have a big enough house for 6 people. I really didn’t think there was anything wrong with parents sleeping with young childern till I became more Americanized. When I got a divorce I did sleep with my 3 year old son but only till the age of 4. I don’t think there’s anything with a girl sleeping with her mother. I’ve slept with my grown daughter when visiting her. I’ve known parents that sleep with their kids because they let them sleep with them as babies and toddlers. It’s hard to make a toddler that used to sleeping with you to sleep by himself. My grandson was 4 before he could do that. However, for a 13 year old boy to sleep with his mother and to want to is definitely a problem.

 

[EasterJoy]

A. It sounds like there aren’t a lot of other options. If they had a big Catholic family, there would be lots of other options but a broken home and 1 sibling doesn’t leave much. I have no idea if they explored the idea of the 2 brother sleeping together but given our culture, there’s a good chance the 15yo didn’t want to. Either way…I just don’t see a problem with him sleeping in the same bed with his mom or his 15 yo brother.

B. You haven’t proven that none of his friends sleep with a female relative and even if that’s the case, so what? Sorry but I see no value in conforming to a society on arbitrary matters such as this. Romans 12:12 tells us not to be conformed the ways of this world. As a mother, I would be way more concerned about the needs of my child than whether it was what his friends were doing. Again, I refer you to the book that I linked earlier. In it, the author names 50 different cultures where all the children (boys and girls) sleep with the mother and the father sleeps in a different location. This whole sleeping separately thing didn’t start happening until about 200 years ago.

I don’t think you’ve proven that a 13 yo can’t gain security by sleeping in the same bed with his mother. Assuring someone that they can do something doesn’t mean that they actually can with any level of security. Just stating something doesn’t make it a fact. But this tends to be the American way of parenting. I applaud the OP’s ex-wife for thinking differently there.

Who said the 15 year old was ever asked and why is sleeping in his own bed not an option? What, is the “child” of thirteen going to breast feed for security, too? Why ever not? I mean, I can’t prove that would hurt him, either!

I don’t know where you get this idea that there is no option but to have a teen sleep with his mom. I also don’t know where we get this idea that the world cultures where families sleep together in the same room wouldn’t find it a bit off if “favorite” boy was in the habit of sleeping next to Mom when he was sexually mature, which this kid will be soon if he isn’t already. Sleeping in the same room and an adolescent male sleeping right next to a grown woman are two very different things.

I also don’t know what kind of insecurity would have ever made it a good idea for me, a girl, to sleep with my Dad at the age of 13, particularly not if my dad were divorced and my other sister would not be joining us! Thirteen year olds don’t appreciate where that could go, but adults should. He can’t see this coming, but this is a situation that could have a bad effect on his psyche, not a good one. It could make his prospects for a healthy marriage lower, not higher. The hoped-for gains simply do not justify the known risks.

Again: I don’t know anybody who deals with the problems of broken families professionally who will fail to see the dangers in this. If the ex-wife says this is a good idea, OP, I’d ask her to find a family therapist to talk to you and convince you. I don’t think she’ll find one, but maybe in the looking the therapist will talk her out of it.