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He_Man
Guest
Sure she does. Martin Luther, Sinead O’Connor, John Calvin, George Carlin. All pillars of society.
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Via_Dolorosa
Guest
Sinead O’Connor was a victim of abuse before we even knew it was going on. That’s why she did wha she did on SNL.
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/25/AR2010032502363.html
My question is why didn’t we figure this out before 2000 in Boston?
K
kimmielittle
Guest
Ms O’Connor was a victim of State abuse, parental abuse, as well, wasn’t she? Who placed her at Magdalen? Who taught her to shoplift? Yet, her actions on SNL were directed at who?
Personally, I see Ms. O’Connors’ action, on SNL, one of self promotion.
She can claim what ever she wants…BUT if her reasoning had an ounce of truth…It gives anyone who has experienced ANY sort of hardship in life, an excuse.
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TedDC
Guest
I’m just wondering, why are you so obsessed with this issue? You even have it in your signature.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
Regarding the piece the Tribune published, here are the only three “opinions” they printed in their commentary section. I tells us how bad things really are in this culture:
This is in response to “Excommunicate me, please” (Commentary, Aug. 4), by Sheila O’Brien, a justice of the Illinois Appellate Court, Chicago. If O’Brien is excommunicated, I hope she will not leave the church; we need all the faithful we can get to work and make things right. The church belongs to all of its members. Deep in our being, there are marks, called indelible signs, a metaphor for “especially important spiritual events” that happen to us through life and tie us to the church. People are very concerned with the sins of church members. We need to do all we can to safeguard each other from injustices and hatred wherever it is found. I know some people who are working tirelessly for justice. How can one leave a family so self-giving because of the sins of some? It is true that Catholic Church policy regarding women, celibacy, gender preference and the like creates unnecessary problems and shows that church policy is flawed. We don’t like to see people being excommunicated or leaving because of these problems. We want to keep the family together; there is too much work to do.
— Bernard Wheel, Oak Park
Congratulations to Sheila O’Brien for her excellent and pointed concern. Many of us feel this way and thank her for expressing for us why we are staying with the fight for the good of bettering our church.
— Kathleen Quinn, Gary
Sheila O’Brien articulates the painful place where she finds herself regarding the Catholic Church. She can’t stay and she can’t leave, so, in traditional form, she remains passive, wanting the bishops to do the nefarious deed of excommunicating her. She will bear no stain of sin. There is a long-standing, orthodox teaching of the church known as the supremacy of conscience. If one cannot, in good conscience, follow the rules as stated, such as the prohibitions of the use of birth control or the practice of homosexuality, then the moral demands are on that person to follow his/her conscience. This principle is seldom taught but remains at the heart of Catholic moral teaching. So O’Brien does know what to do. Following her true conscience carries with it grief but also deep peace.
— Kathleen Whalen FitzGerald, Antioch, Dominican nun for 14 years, wife and mother
chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-vp-0811voicelettersbriefs-20100811,0,293287.story
This is in response to “Excommunicate me, please” (Commentary, Aug. 4), by Sheila O’Brien, a justice of the Illinois Appellate Court, Chicago. If O’Brien is excommunicated, I hope she will not leave the church; we need all the faithful we can get to work and make things right. The church belongs to all of its members. Deep in our being, there are marks, called indelible signs, a metaphor for “especially important spiritual events” that happen to us through life and tie us to the church. People are very concerned with the sins of church members. We need to do all we can to safeguard each other from injustices and hatred wherever it is found. I know some people who are working tirelessly for justice. How can one leave a family so self-giving because of the sins of some? It is true that Catholic Church policy regarding women, celibacy, gender preference and the like creates unnecessary problems and shows that church policy is flawed. We don’t like to see people being excommunicated or leaving because of these problems. We want to keep the family together; there is too much work to do.
— Bernard Wheel, Oak Park
Congratulations to Sheila O’Brien for her excellent and pointed concern. Many of us feel this way and thank her for expressing for us why we are staying with the fight for the good of bettering our church.
— Kathleen Quinn, Gary
Sheila O’Brien articulates the painful place where she finds herself regarding the Catholic Church. She can’t stay and she can’t leave, so, in traditional form, she remains passive, wanting the bishops to do the nefarious deed of excommunicating her. She will bear no stain of sin. There is a long-standing, orthodox teaching of the church known as the supremacy of conscience. If one cannot, in good conscience, follow the rules as stated, such as the prohibitions of the use of birth control or the practice of homosexuality, then the moral demands are on that person to follow his/her conscience. This principle is seldom taught but remains at the heart of Catholic moral teaching. So O’Brien does know what to do. Following her true conscience carries with it grief but also deep peace.
— Kathleen Whalen FitzGerald, Antioch, Dominican nun for 14 years, wife and mother
chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-vp-0811voicelettersbriefs-20100811,0,293287.story
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He_Man
Guest
What I don’t get about the people who whine about feeling “left out in the cold”, and feeling “disenfranchised”, is that their solution is to simply make changes that will leave others (often times, the majority) feeling disenfranchised.
So you want to to promote changes to you’ll feel more accepted and welcome, but in doing so, you are okay with making others feel disenfranchised?
How does this compute, at any level? By definition, unless the Church members themselves have absolute allegiance to the guidance of the Holy Father, regardless of their own opinions, THERE WILL ALWAYS be people who feel “distant” and “left out,” since people will never agree 100%.
That’s why the military succeeds. Your opinion isn’t required; your obediance is.
So for those who feel the Church is wrong, what is the solution to this dilemma? How do NOT alienate ANYONE?
S
saveusfromhell
Guest
i wonder why do people still want to be catholics and yet don’t believe in it’s teachings.
their is many christian religions that better suit their beliefs.
no long believe in the real pressence in the eucharist,
women priest
celibacy
pro choice
contraception
no infallable teaching of docterine
all these are accepted in many christian faiths, instead of them changing, they want us to change to their faith.
the main problem is the day a pope accepts any of the above he wil be labelled the antichrist,
their is many christian religions that better suit their beliefs.
no long believe in the real pressence in the eucharist,
women priest
celibacy
pro choice
contraception
no infallable teaching of docterine
all these are accepted in many christian faiths, instead of them changing, they want us to change to their faith.
the main problem is the day a pope accepts any of the above he wil be labelled the antichrist,
J
Jimmy_Martello
Guest
Some of the responses I received about my post regarding the judge in Illinois warrant a response, though I doubt what I am about to write makes any difference to anyone. Still, I feel obliged to respond.
1.) The conscience is only part of the equation in determining what is true, and for the conscience to be open to the Truth…that being Objective Truth, not relative truth…it must be properly formed by the Deposit of the Faith, the Church. This illuminated conscience must, if it is authentically formed, be submissive to the legitimate authority of the Church which is the Magisterium in union with the Holy See. An authentically formed conscience would not feel compelled to be in conflict with the Church on matters of revealed Truth.
2.) There needs to be a distinction made between the “institutional Church”, which is her human dimension, and the “Transcendent Church”, which is the divine nature imbued in the Church, making her the Body of Christ…the Faithful.
As Jesus Christ was both fully human and fully Divine in the same person, so too the Church experiences this mystery. This is why sinful men and women in the Church can do awful things either in the name of the Church or as members of the Body of Christ, and still have legitimate authority and roles in the Church. Their flawed humanity doesn’t define the Church, it only forms the reason the Church exists.
I have often heard it said, that if the Church were only a group of people in communion with one another and not the Divine Communion instituted by Jesus Christ, built upon the Rock of Peter and the truth Peter spoke, which is in Matt. 16:18-19, we would have ceased to exist a long time ago as victims of our own foolishness.
But we are still here, precisely because the Church is an institution of Divine Nature designed to instruct and inform the consciences of humanity as it pertains to the Will of God in matters of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Authority, and Sacred Tradition.
All three pillars must be present in the formation of an enlightened, truthful conscience and genuine Truth.
3.) The problems within the Church that plagues the judge, and us all for that matter, are serious and repugnant. But they are not problems which are systemic to the Church herself, but to the flawed human nature that is found in any “institution”.
Statistically, pedophilia isn’t any higher among Catholic clergy than in any other human institution, and is, in fact, lower than is found in family relatives, step-parents, public schools, sporting venues, and government monitored foster care and juvenile detention facilities. These are facts that can be found easily through crime statistics on government and watchdog websites and through the FBI.
I’m sure the judge and those critics of the Church would not call for an end to families, step-parents, public schools, sporting events, foster care, juvenile detentions or advocate for a pluralistic approach to how these institutions function on a daily basis.
The only reason we are so outraged by revealed transgressions of bishops, clergy, and religious in the Catholic Church, is because: a.) Such transgressions are completely contrary to everything the Church is and represents; and b.) The Church is both society’s largest public target and represents the epitome of counter-culture. Celibacy and Chastity, the Natural Moral Law, submission to institutional authority on matters as intimate as sex, family, faith, and personal responsibility all go against the cultural norms.
To be frank, we don’t like others telling us what is right and wrong, especially since they reject everything popular culture deems as “normal”.
We especially find distasteful those flawed persons who challenge us as individuals to surrender to an outside authority. So, since we can’t kill the message…we attack the messengers. We revel in their failures or use them as leverage to force changes we may find more palatable and compatible to our own versions of what truth should be. We become part of the tyranny of relativism under the banner of justice, which is neither just nor true. It is actually fundamentally selfish and intrinsically flawed, but it is conventional, democratic, popular, and freeing…in a demented sort of way.
It isn’t the exercise of the conscience and free will, but the killing of it. We truly do, excommunicate ourselves in the name of conscience when it is not fully formed.
1.) The conscience is only part of the equation in determining what is true, and for the conscience to be open to the Truth…that being Objective Truth, not relative truth…it must be properly formed by the Deposit of the Faith, the Church. This illuminated conscience must, if it is authentically formed, be submissive to the legitimate authority of the Church which is the Magisterium in union with the Holy See. An authentically formed conscience would not feel compelled to be in conflict with the Church on matters of revealed Truth.
2.) There needs to be a distinction made between the “institutional Church”, which is her human dimension, and the “Transcendent Church”, which is the divine nature imbued in the Church, making her the Body of Christ…the Faithful.
As Jesus Christ was both fully human and fully Divine in the same person, so too the Church experiences this mystery. This is why sinful men and women in the Church can do awful things either in the name of the Church or as members of the Body of Christ, and still have legitimate authority and roles in the Church. Their flawed humanity doesn’t define the Church, it only forms the reason the Church exists.
I have often heard it said, that if the Church were only a group of people in communion with one another and not the Divine Communion instituted by Jesus Christ, built upon the Rock of Peter and the truth Peter spoke, which is in Matt. 16:18-19, we would have ceased to exist a long time ago as victims of our own foolishness.
But we are still here, precisely because the Church is an institution of Divine Nature designed to instruct and inform the consciences of humanity as it pertains to the Will of God in matters of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Authority, and Sacred Tradition.
All three pillars must be present in the formation of an enlightened, truthful conscience and genuine Truth.
3.) The problems within the Church that plagues the judge, and us all for that matter, are serious and repugnant. But they are not problems which are systemic to the Church herself, but to the flawed human nature that is found in any “institution”.
Statistically, pedophilia isn’t any higher among Catholic clergy than in any other human institution, and is, in fact, lower than is found in family relatives, step-parents, public schools, sporting venues, and government monitored foster care and juvenile detention facilities. These are facts that can be found easily through crime statistics on government and watchdog websites and through the FBI.
I’m sure the judge and those critics of the Church would not call for an end to families, step-parents, public schools, sporting events, foster care, juvenile detentions or advocate for a pluralistic approach to how these institutions function on a daily basis.
The only reason we are so outraged by revealed transgressions of bishops, clergy, and religious in the Catholic Church, is because: a.) Such transgressions are completely contrary to everything the Church is and represents; and b.) The Church is both society’s largest public target and represents the epitome of counter-culture. Celibacy and Chastity, the Natural Moral Law, submission to institutional authority on matters as intimate as sex, family, faith, and personal responsibility all go against the cultural norms.
To be frank, we don’t like others telling us what is right and wrong, especially since they reject everything popular culture deems as “normal”.
We especially find distasteful those flawed persons who challenge us as individuals to surrender to an outside authority. So, since we can’t kill the message…we attack the messengers. We revel in their failures or use them as leverage to force changes we may find more palatable and compatible to our own versions of what truth should be. We become part of the tyranny of relativism under the banner of justice, which is neither just nor true. It is actually fundamentally selfish and intrinsically flawed, but it is conventional, democratic, popular, and freeing…in a demented sort of way.
It isn’t the exercise of the conscience and free will, but the killing of it. We truly do, excommunicate ourselves in the name of conscience when it is not fully formed.
S
sharmin
Guest
I don’t think she is being overly dramatic? I have seen others on this board WAY more dramatic!! LOL I don’t agree with her points, but I think I think she is entitled to her feelings, as a Catholic.
C
CMatt25
Guest
I assume then you question too why the Church considers these people Catholic.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
The Church considers those people Catholic by virtue of the indelible sign of Baptism.I assume then you question too why the Church considers these people Catholic.
However. . .does the Church consider them good Catholics? Faithful Catholics? Practicing Catholics?
**Or does She consider them 'failing Catholics? Disloyal Catholics? Lapsed Catholics? Dissenting Catholics? Erring Catholics? **
**Those little adjectives can be necessary. **
**After all, there is a difference between the public professions of their personal beliefs of their Catholic faith from, say, Nancy Pelosi, Catholic, and Mother Teresa, Catholic. **
Both are Catholic by virtue of baptism, but they are not equal in their obedience to Catholic teaching. They are so unequal that to label either as ‘only’ Catholic without any further qualification would lead to an observer believing that Catholics teach hundreds of absolutely contradictory doctrines!
C
CMatt25
Guest
Thank you Tantum for recognizing Catholic is a legitimate noun for both.
I think most based in reality already know Catholics do not equally adhere. Peace and God bless you.
S
saveusfromhell
Guest
cmatt why do you assume to know what i think?
but for example if someone no longer believes in the real prescense and goes up and recieves communion, as many i know do, one man told me he reserves the right to do this. A discussion started by him because the priest asked people at christmas not to recieve if not in good standing with church.
they do this knowing people in the pew beside them consider the eucharist God. is this not a form of mocking there belief in the real prescense. recieving while openly professing it to be just a piece of bread?
by there own non belief in the list above if they were to die unrepented we know what the church teaches happens to them. so why not join a church that is in line with what they believe? why do they expect us to conform to their beliefs.
but for example if someone no longer believes in the real prescense and goes up and recieves communion, as many i know do, one man told me he reserves the right to do this. A discussion started by him because the priest asked people at christmas not to recieve if not in good standing with church.
they do this knowing people in the pew beside them consider the eucharist God. is this not a form of mocking there belief in the real prescense. recieving while openly professing it to be just a piece of bread?
by there own non belief in the list above if they were to die unrepented we know what the church teaches happens to them. so why not join a church that is in line with what they believe? why do they expect us to conform to their beliefs.
N
Nordar
Guest
Why even bother going to Mass, why even recieve The Eucharist if you don’t believe? that is just so absurd.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Because in the posts of yours that I’ve read you seemed to accept all teaching. And the definition of Catholic is what it is. God bless and peace!
C
CMatt25
Guest
Why go to Mass?
You’re surely not advocating only those who believe in the physical RP should go to Mass! 
To your 2nd question perhaps those who receive, follow Christ in Jn 6:37 (He turns no one away who is called) and they believe He is truly present in at least spirit? I’m just trying to think of a possible reason. Peace.
S
saveusfromhell
Guest
two possible secnarios to what your saying you believe in RP but able to justify what these people do to our LORD GOD. or you don’t believe in RP which is it?Why go to Mass?
I suggest you think about what you are saying before you answer.
E
estesbob
Guest
Because they feel it gives them more credibility when the ctiticize the Church when they cllaim to be Catholic.
S
saveusfromhell
Guest
yes i do believe in all the teachings of the church. Do i want the catholic church to kick people out who don’t believe in all i do most definatly no, you assume wrong.
it’s tongue in cheek comment pionting out the absurdity of catholics wanting to change the view of our church to suit themselves
imagine a soccer team deciding they no longer believed in playing by the rules set out by fifa how crazy the situation would get.
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