Existence of Jesus?

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Tess_marie

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I posted this in Traditional Catholicism, and I just realized it was the wrong place. If anyone knows how to delete a thread they’ve started please let me know.

Anyway, I’m an 18 year old girl who was raised in a traditional Catholic family. However, lately, I’m finding that my faith is seriously dwindling.

I’m starting to even doubt the existence of Jesus at all. I’ve read that all of the records that reference Him outside of the bible were written only years after he died, and that there are no historical records of Him while he was living. I’ve read that He was not included in the Roman censuses, and that there’s no evidence to say that King Herod every ordered the murder of children.

I’ve also read that there’s not even evidence of His trial with Pontus Pilate.

This is all so disturbing to me. If he was important enough to split time into two (BC and AD), how could there not be more historical records of His existence?

I’m so depressed about my lack of faith. I feel like I’m so close to not believing anymore, and that scares me because what else will I have to live for?

Does anyone have any advice for me? Or can anyone answer my doubts about the existence of Jesus? Please pray for me. Thank you and God bless.
 
Jesus existed. Jews and Muslims both believe he existed.

Also, Tacitus, a pagan scholar of the time of Jesus mentions a person he calls “Christus”. Another like Tacitus mentions “Chrestus” causing problems for Emprorer Claudius around 50 AD.

Tacitus said " Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular"

Pliny the Younger, Governor of the Provice of Pontus wrote an letter to Emporor Trajan mentioning Christians who worshiped “Christus”, around 112AD.

Suetonius said this "“As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he Claudius ] expelled them [the Jews] from Rome”.

Josephus, a jew wrote: “About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease to follow him, for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.”
 
Tess, I wish I had an answer for you, but I do not. I can tell you I have struggled with the same thing myself at times and still do. I think it is natural for us to have doubts. I think the problem arises when we have despair, which is a direct sin against the virtue of hope.

I would recommend talking to a priest or deacon. These are not uncommon questions that you raise, but they are important and you need to be sure you get the right answers.

I will pray for you!
 
whenever i have doubts i always remember that is satan trying to get us to deny the Savior
 
I will pray for you as well. I have had similar doubts before, which in the end helped spur my entrance into full communion with Rome as a Catholic! After a great deal of despair, of reading and research of my own, I think that the end story here is that it is the Jesus mythers who are clearly fighting the battle against the overwhelming weight of the evidence. The references that the earlier poster gave are a good start, but there are more…even the majority of skeptics in the end accept the existence of Jesus because of the many extra-biblical accounts of him from writers such as Josephus (his writings likely were partly interpolated, but a large majority of scholars accept their overall veracity), as well as the multitudes of early church writers and persons, apostles, early church fathers, etc. who wrote very early about the Christian message. St. Paul wrote in the early 50’s and 60’s AD, then there’s Polycarp of Smyrna, Clement of Rome, and St. Ignatius who all wrote letters with gospel references, learned from St. John the Apostle, and were martyred early on. Inatius wrote in the beginning of the second century, Clement likely in around 70 AD.

Basically, the extra-biblical record is full of very early testimony to Jesus’ existence and his message, from christian authors and Roman pagan and Jewish sources. The question to ask is: what is the likely explanation for all of this? Does it make sense that ALL of these historians, writers, politicians, etc. from all over the Empire were just coincidentally making up the same stories for fun? What reasonable alternative explanation for the record of history, which is one of this message and Jesus’ teachings spreading like a wildfire all across the known world, is there other than that he did exist, and reliably did do and say much of what is written in the gospels, at the very least?

Basically, you have to ask: what would the historical record look like, the evidence, if Jesus didn’t exist? I would submit that it would NOT look anything like what we have as a record today. The other thing to remember is that, sadly, much of the writings of history from antiquity are lost. We have fragments of writings from people like Pliny the Elder compared to what we KNOW from those fragments he actually wrote. There could be MANY interesting things in the histories written by such men that we know nothing of because they were lost.

Bless you in your journey!
 
“Jesus” may not have existed as he is depicted in the bible, but it’s a commonly held belief that there was a great scholar (Yeshua or something like that, I’m sure it started with a Y) living around that time that taught similar beliefs to what the bible claims Jesus taught.

The other option being of course, that neither actually existed and its entirely made up. Personally, I find that hard to beleive, most traditions have their roots somewhere, and I think that “Jesus” is an idolized version of the scholar Yeshua.
 
The idea that Jesus never existed has been rejected by any serious historical scholars. Anything you have read with any such “evidence” is nothing short of fabrication.
Consider: where did you read this? is it a reliable resource? what sources did they reference? are the sources reliable? who wrote it? what agenda could they have?
These are always important to consider.
If we believed everything that we read without questioning it then the earth is flat, Jews are plotting to take over the world and the FDA is part of a conspiracy to make people fat.
If you’re struggling, go speak to your priest. You could even look into taking part in RCIA - even though it is designed for converts I took it as Confirmation preparation and my mother’s friend went with me purely to ‘brush up’ on matters of the faith.
 
That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels. How is it that a made-up character could change a world that had been mostly pagan for many years before that time? Why would so many Jews suddenly convert to Christianity so early on if Jesus never existed? If they never seen Him or any miracle he ever performed why would they abandon their religions to follow some imaginary character? And what about the gentiles that were unfamiliar with the Jewish God? What could possibly have made them convert to Christianity and abandon their gods? What was it that they saw that caused so many of them to convert?

Could a person who never lived have affected human history so remarkably? The historical result of Jesus’ activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognized by the chief civilizations of the world, dates from his birth. Even calendars today are based on the year that Jesus was thought to have been born. Dates before that year are listed as B.C., or before Christ. Dates after that year are listed as A.D., or anno Domini (in the year of our Lord).

Critics, nevertheless, point out that all that we really know about Jesus is found in the Bible. No other contemporary records concerning him exist. But this is simply not true. Although references to Jesus Christ by early secular historians are meager, such references do exist. See the previous post by mcrow. I won’t repeat everything here already referenced in that post, but I will site a couple and include sources.

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus referred to the stoning of “James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.” (THE JEWISH ANTIQUITIES, JOSEPHUS, BOOK XX, SEC. 200)

Tacitus, a Roman historian who lived during the latter part of the first century C.E., wrote: “Christus [Latin for “Christ”], from whom the name [Christian] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.”—THE COMPLETE WORKS OF TACITUS (NEW YORK, 1942), “THE ANNALS,” BOOK 15, PAR. 44.

With reference to early non-Christian historical references to Jesus, THE NEW ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA states: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus "(1976), MACROPÆDIA, VOL. 10, P. 145.

As it did with the Hebrew Scriptures, archaeology has brought to light many interesting artifacts in support of the written record contained in the Christian Greek Scriptures. For instance, Pontius Pilate Inscription. It was in 1961 that the first archaeological find was made with reference to Pontius Pilate. (the person who put Jesus to death) This was a stone slab located at Caesarea, which bore in Latin the name of Pontius Pilate

To put is simply, if we are to doubt the historicity of Jesus, we must also doubt the historicity of ones like, Alexander the Great and Napoleon, as there is more evidence of Jesus’ existence than of theirs.
 
Insight said:
The text is from the Acts of Pilot:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Pilate

The claims that it is a forgery are only based on weak arguements of writing style. These writings were considered by the church as useful, but not divinely inspired.

God Bless
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Igh, I’m sorry, but it is widely acknowledged as a forgery by serious scholars. Read your own link please, it states that the oldest part of the work was composed in the Second Century, i.e. well after the death of Tiberius and Pilate.
 
Thank you to all who have answered so far. I’m feeling a bit better. On Saturday, I plan on going to Confession and talking with a priest there. Is it normal for a person to go to Conression, more for advice then to confess sins? That’s what I plan on doing. I’ll still confess sins though. But, is that okay to do?
 
Blacksword said:
Igh, I’m sorry, but it is widely acknowledged as a forgery by serious scholars. Read your own link please, it states that the oldest part of the work was composed in the Second Century, i.e. well after the death of Tiberius and Pilate.
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“may have been composed in the late 2nd century”, It may not have been the original letter, but a hand transcribed copy made in the second century. They didn’t have photocopy machines in those days, records were routinely hand copied.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Acta_Pilati_%28Acts_of_Pilate%29

God Bless
 
Tess_marie said:
I posted this in Traditional Catholicism, and I just realized it was the wrong place. If anyone knows how to delete a thread they’ve started please let me know.

Anyway, I’m an 18 year old girl who was raised in a traditional Catholic family. However, lately, I’m finding that my faith is seriously dwindling.

I’m starting to even doubt the existence of Jesus at all. I’ve read that all of the records that reference Him outside of the bible were written only years after he died, and that there are no historical records of Him while he was living. I’ve read that He was not included in the Roman censuses, and that there’s no evidence to say that King Herod every ordered the murder of children.

I’ve also read that there’s not even evidence of His trial with Pontus Pilate.

This is all so disturbing to me. If he was important enough to split time into two (BC and AD), how could there not be more historical records of His existence?

I’m so depressed about my lack of faith. I feel like I’m so close to not believing anymore, and that scares me because what else will I have to live for?

Does anyone have any advice for me? Or can anyone answer my doubts about the existence of Jesus? Please pray for me. Thank you and God bless.
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There are several references to Jesus outside the Bible.
  1. Josephus, an early Jewish historian. His mention of Jesus is often said to be a forgery, but while there are obvious Christian additions, one can reconstruct the original text by examining Josephus’s writing patterns (done by apologist JP Holding in “Shattering the Christ Myth”) The reconstruction goes something like this:
    “As this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds and a teaher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews and among many of Gentile origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out.”
  2. Tacitus, a Roman historian, wrote:
    “But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.”
  3. Pliny the Younger, Governor of Bithynia wrote:
    *They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. *
 
For your question as to why there aren’t more references to Jesus in historical records, here are a few reasons, taken from apologist JP Holding:
*1) As far as the historians of the day were concerned, he was just a “blip” on the screen. Jesus was not considered to be historically significant by historians of his time. He did not address the Roman Senate, or write extensive Greek philosophical treatises; He never travelled outside of the regions of Palestine, and was not a member of any known political party. It is only because Christians later made Jesus a “celebrity” that He became known.
Sanders, comparing Jesus to Alexander, notes that the latter “so greatly altered the political situation in a large part of the world that the main outline of his public life is very well known indeed. Jesus did not change the social, political and economic circumstances in Palestine (Note: It was left for His followers to do that!) …the superiority of evidence for Jesus is seen when we ask what he thought.”
Harris adds that “Roman writers could hardly be expected to have foreseen the subsequent influence of Christianity on the Roman Empire and therefore to have carefully documented” Christian origins. How were they to know that this minor Nazarene prophet would cause such a fuss?
2) Jesus was executed as a criminal, providing him with the ultimate marginality. This was one reason why historians would have ignored Jesus. He suffered the ultimate humiliation, both in the eyes of Jews (Deut. 21:23 - Anyone hung on a tree is cursed!) and the Romans (He died the death of slaves and rebels.).
On the other hand, Jesus was a minimal threat compared to other proclaimed “Messiahs” of the time. Rome had to call out troops to quell the disturbances caused by the unnamed Egyptian referenced in the Book of Acts. In contrast, no troops were required to suppress Jesus’ followers.
To the Romans, the primary gatekeepers of written history at the time, Jesus during His own life would have been no different than thousands of other everyday criminals that were crucified.
3) Jesus marginalized himself by being occupied as an itinerant preacher. Of course, there was no Palestine News Network, and even if there had been one, there were no televisions to broadcast it. Jesus never used the established “news organs” of the day to spread His message. He travelled about the countryside, avoiding for the most part (and with the exception of Jerusalem) the major urban centers of the day. How would we regard someone who preached only in sites like, say, Hahira, Georgia?
4) Jesus’ teachings did not always jibe with, and were sometimes offensive to, the established religious order of the day. It has been said that if Jesus appeared on the news today, it would be as a troublemaker. He certainly did not make many friends as a preacher.
5) Jesus lived an offensive lifestyle and alienated many people. He associated with the despised and rejected: Tax collectors, prostitutes, and the band of fishermen He had as disciples.
6) Jesus was a poor, rural person in a land run by wealthy urbanites. Yes, class discrimination was alive and well in the first century also! *
 
Finally, if this continues to be a burden on your faith, I highly recommend the book “Shattering the Christ-Myth” by J.P. Holding who does just that, shatters the theory that Jesus never existed.

Or, there’s his web page on the subject:
tektonics.org/jesusexisthub.html

God bless!
 
I’m just going to address your situation directly. This is a matter of Faith. Faith is a theological virtue, i.e., it is a gift from God. No amount of evidence will force you to believe in Jesus; you must be accepting of Faith from God, you must want to believe in God and in Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten son, before you are able to start believing. You must want to believe before you can believe, then you may read apologetics, historical documents, and the such to further deepen your Faith, while keeping a healthy prayer-life in order to believe in Jesus.
 
tulliusatellus said:
I’m just going to address your situation directly. This is a matter of Faith. Faith is a theological virtue, i.e., it is a gift from God. No amount of evidence will force you to believe in Jesus; you must be accepting of Faith from God, you must want to believe in God and in Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten son, before you are able to start believing. You must want to believe before you can believe, then you may read apologetics, historical documents, and the such to further deepen your Faith, while keeping a healthy prayer-life in order to believe in Jesus.
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It isn’t that I don’t believe. I do believe, and I desire to believe more strongly, but I’m just really doubting right now. Much of what I’ve read here though has helped me, and I think I can get through this.
 
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