Existence of Jesus?

[ryanoneil]

Don’t fret to much about your faith being challenged. It makes us investigate and explore. Did you know the earliest biography of Alexander the Great was written 400 years after his death? Not that it is the perfect comparison, but I think you get my point. Jesus existed.

 

[Jerome81]

I posted this in Traditional Catholicism, and I just realized it was the wrong place. If anyone knows how to delete a thread they’ve started please let me know.

Anyway, I’m an 18 year old girl who was raised in a traditional Catholic family. However, lately, I’m finding that my faith is seriously dwindling.

I’m starting to even doubt the existence of Jesus at all. I’ve read that all of the records that reference Him outside of the bible were written only years after he died, and that there are no historical records of Him while he was living. I’ve read that He was not included in the Roman censuses, and that there’s no evidence to say that King Herod every ordered the murder of children.

I’ve also read that there’s not even evidence of His trial with Pontus Pilate.

This is all so disturbing to me. If he was important enough to split time into two (BC and AD), how could there not be more historical records of His existence?

I’m so depressed about my lack of faith. I feel like I’m so close to not believing anymore, and that scares me because what else will I have to live for?

Does anyone have any advice for me? Or can anyone answer my doubts about the existence of Jesus? Please pray for me. Thank you and God bless.

Hi Tess, I feel for you because you are under a malicious attack from Satan, he wants to tear you faith apart! Pray to prayer st. michael the archangel for protection

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen…

As for the existence of Jesus, the evidence for the existence of Jesus is overwhelming, actually, no serious scholar doubts that Jesus existed. These guys have given you some great links, you should definitely check out tektonics.org/jesusexisthub.html

 

[JackQ]

I posted this in Traditional Catholicism, and I just realized it was the wrong place. If anyone knows how to delete a thread they’ve started please let me know.

Anyway, I’m an 18 year old girl who was raised in a traditional Catholic family. However, lately, I’m finding that my faith is seriously dwindling.

I’m starting to even doubt the existence of Jesus at all. I’ve read that all of the records that reference Him outside of the bible were written only years after he died, and that there are no historical records of Him while he was living. I’ve read that He was not included in the Roman censuses, and that there’s no evidence to say that King Herod every ordered the murder of children.

I’ve also read that there’s not even evidence of His trial with Pontus Pilate.

This is all so disturbing to me. If he was important enough to split time into two (BC and AD), how could there not be more historical records of His existence?

I’m so depressed about my lack of faith. I feel like I’m so close to not believing anymore, and that scares me because what else will I have to live for?

Does anyone have any advice for me? Or can anyone answer my doubts about the existence of Jesus? Please pray for me. Thank you and God bless.

When I read the words of Jesus in the Gospels, then hear from others that Jesus didn’t really say those things, I always reply: “Then tell me who did say these things, and I will follow him.”

 

[Tess_marie]

Hi Tess, I feel for you because you are under a malicious attack from Satan, he wants to tear you faith apart! Pray to prayer st. michael the archangel for protection

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen…

As for the existence of Jesus, the evidence for the existence of Jesus is overwhelming, actually, no serious scholar doubts that Jesus existed. These guys have given you some great links, you should definitely check out tektonics.org/jesusexisthub.html

Thank you so much!

 

[Tess_marie]

When I read the words of Jesus in the Gospels, then hear from others that Jesus didn’t really say those things, I always reply: “Then tell me who did say these things, and I will follow him.”

I like that response.

 

[theistgal]

Re: the Josephus quote, please be aware that most historians think it was embellished.

After all, if Josephus really believed that Christ was more than “just a man”, why didn’t he become a Christian? Because he didn’t.

 

[Stylites]

This is all so disturbing to me. If he was important enough to split time into two (BC and AD), how could there not be more historical records of His existence?

Your comment about splitting time was quite to the point.

In all fairness to Jesus, the area of His earthly life was not the center of the known world, but a backwater place probably detested by the Roman rulers of His day. While His deeds in the region were all great events, such as the multiplication of the loaves and fishes, the miraculous cures, and the never-before-seen raising of the dead, His influence shook the world only after He was raised up, in the way His Apostles reacted to His teachings and resurrection. They streamed out into the far corners of the world, and transformed it by their faith and witness. It may have taken a few hundred years of persecutions and armies of martyrs willing to die for Christ, but in the end the Roman Empire, which was the most powerful, repressive, feared and hated system, fell to the onslaught of love which Christ instituted.

The calendar might have been changed immediately had Jesus lived and taught and performed His miracles in Rome, but as it is, it took about 700 years for a monk to place year zero at the purported year of Christ’s birth.

 

[Tess_marie]

Your comment about splitting time was quite to the point.

In all fairness to Jesus, the area of His earthly life was not the center of the known world, but a backwater place probably detested by the Roman rulers of His day. While His deeds in the region were all great events, such as the multiplication of the loaves and fishes, the miraculous cures, and the never-before-seen raising of the dead, His influence shook the world only after He was raised up, in the way His Apostles reacted to His teachings and resurrection. They streamed out into the far corners of the world, and transformed it by their faith and witness. It may have taken a few hundred years of persecutions and armies of martyrs willing to die for Christ, but in the end the Roman Empire, which was the most powerful, repressive, feared and hated system, fell to the onslaught of love which Christ instituted.

The calendar might have been changed immediately had Jesus lived and taught and performed His miracles in Rome, but as it is, it took about 700 years for a monk to place year zero at the purported year of Christ’s birth.

So, the whole BC/AD thing wasn’t put into action until the year 700? I’m a bit confused by what you mean.

 

[sojo]

The historical Jesus (Yeshua) did exist and was acknowledged by the Jews and early Christians. More research on your part will with the helpful information others have provided will help you with this.

Of much more concern (speaking as a Jewish convert to Christianity) is: was the man Jesus really God? For this there are only two answers - 1) did He indeed rise from the dead on the 3rd day as He Himself said He would, and/or 2) do you have a personal revelation or experience that He is still alive and active in your life.

Now the first possibility really stumped me for a long time. I mean, rise from the dead? Really? Did Christians really believe that? But on closer inspection of the facts, I had to admit that something pretty stupendous happened for these rather cowardly and uneducated apostles to suddenly be lit on fire. But what that “something” was… I wasn’t ready to commit.

But then I prayed this prayer (or something close to it), “Jesus, if you are really real and out there… you were/are a Jew like me so you must understand how this whole Jesus AND God thing sounds, to say nothing of the whole rising from the dead thing, and don’t even get me started on what the Holy Spirit is supposed to be about. So here’s the thing - if you WANT me to believe, send me a sign. Make it clear. I really am too dumb to understand slight whisperings of the spirit or some such. Just drop a frickin billboard on my head, OK? Fine. And if you are really real, and really God, I’ll follow you. I promise. Amen.”

Honestly - my actual prayer was just like that or even more raw.

And honestly… He did drop a billboard on me head. To be honest, the Holy Spirit sent a whole series of little hints and nudges that should have done the trick, but I was set in my ways and firm in my old mind set. Looking back, I realize I’ve been hounded by the Holy Spirit for most of my adult life and somehow managed to set it all aside. Spiritually dumber than dirt, that was me.

So my advice is talk to Him. Talk to the Big Guy - one or all three persons of the Big Guy. He can take it, He doesn’t need flowery talk, you can just ask Him. And if He wants you, He’ll let you know. If you are quiet and open to it, He’ll send you a nice message somehow. But warning: if you are stupid and thick-headed like me, He may drop a billboard on your head.

 

[Blacksword]

Re: the Josephus quote, please be aware that most historians think it was embellished.

After all, if Josephus really believed that Christ was more than “just a man”, why didn’t he become a Christian? Because he didn’t.

True, but most also accept that the passage at issue is substantially accurate also. Essentially they feel a few embellishments or additions were added, but the point is the passage still talks specifically about Jesus and the alleged miracles he performed. There’s a separate African translation of the passage that comes from a different tradition that contains much of the same language, adding much more weight to it’s overall veracity as an account of Jesus outside the Bible, which is what the skeptic wants.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I’ve never really understood why people say “there are no historical references to Jesus outside the Bible.” Aside from the pagan and Jewish references cited above, and the writings of the early Church fathers (google “The Didache”), the Bible isn’t a single book - it is a collection of canonical texts from the era just after the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is a large number of texts attesting to the historicty of Jesus. There are more texts containing references to Him written in the period after his death when there were still people alive who remembered Him than there are for most any other figure of the ancient world who is generally considered to be historical.

Good luck in your study and research!

 

[KWR_1]

I posted this in Traditional Catholicism, and I just realized it was the wrong place. If anyone knows how to delete a thread they’ve started please let me know.

Anyway, I’m an 18 year old girl who was raised in a traditional Catholic family. However, lately, I’m finding that my faith is seriously dwindling.

I’m starting to even doubt the existence of Jesus at all. I’ve read that all of the records that reference Him outside of the bible were written only years after he died, and that there are no historical records of Him while he was living. I’ve read that He was not included in the Roman censuses, and that there’s no evidence to say that King Herod every ordered the murder of children.

I’ve also read that there’s not even evidence of His trial with Pontus Pilate.

This is all so disturbing to me. If he was important enough to split time into two (BC and AD), how could there not be more historical records of His existence?

I’m so depressed about my lack of faith. I feel like I’m so close to not believing anymore, and that scares me because what else will I have to live for?

Does anyone have any advice for me? Or can anyone answer my doubts about the existence of Jesus? Please pray for me. Thank you and God bless.

We all have doubts, but as far as Jesus existing yes he did exist. We know this because of the testimony of the Apostles and other writings. If there was one person that wrote something down about a Jesus and no other people had written about that person then such a person would be easy to disprove as ever having to existed.
Now how accurate the Bible is will be for you to decide. For myself I look at the Bible as an attempt by man to understand God & the universe we live in. IMHO. YMMV.

 

[Blacksword]

“may have been composed in the late 2nd century”, It may not have been the original letter, but a hand transcribed copy made in the second century. They didn’t have photocopy machines in those days, records were routinely hand copied.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Acta_Pilati_%28Acts_of_Pilate%29

God Bless

And that site indicates that “scholars agree in assigning it to the Fourth Century”. Look, if you wish to accept it as accurate, fine, but serious scholars do not, not even Catholic or Protestant ones. If this work was even moderately accepted as a matter of veracity, then there would be absolutely no scholars doubting the existence of Jesus, or of even much of the actual text of his miracles and ministry in the gospels. It is simply too good to be true, and also not necessary, as there are the other MUCH better attested sources of evidence as to Jesus’ existence than this. That’s why NO apologist that I have ever heard, whether an evangelical like William Lane Craig, or a Catholic like Jimmy Akin, ever appeals to the Acts of Pilate or this letter as viable evidence. If it was accepted as probative and good evidence, they would use it in their arguments.

I have read on this subject ALOT, and have actually never even heard of this writing being brought up in discussion by any writers.

 

[wiggbuggie]

sorry to hear your problems, I had doubt too im guessing we all do at sometime in our life but here is what I thought and came up with do you believe Socrates existed or plato? what about Confucious? these are people who existed way before Jesus time and everyone agreees that were real people. not only that they founded a movement or philosophy and had disciples too:
Confucius=Founder of Confucianism
Gautama Buddha=Founder of Buddhism

so then my question is who would be the founder of christianity? since it has the word christ in it certainly Jesus existed and had diciples to teach his teachings

not to mention the book of daniel says that the messiah (Jesus) will come at 32 AD
alphanewsdaily.com/mathprophecy1.html

 

[Anthony_V]

sorry to hear your problems, I had doubt too im guessing we all do at sometime in our life but here is what I thought and came up with do you believe Socrates existed or plato? what about Confucious? these are people who existed way before Jesus time and everyone agreees that were real people. not only that they founded a movement or philosophy and had disciples too:
Confucius=Founder of Confucianism
Gautama Buddha=Founder of Buddhism

so then my question is who would be the founder of christianity? since it has the word christ in it certainly Jesus existed and had diciples to teach his teachings

not to mention the book of daniel says that the messiah (Jesus) will come at 32 AD
alphanewsdaily.com/mathprophecy1.html

Some of the theology in there is inaccurate, actually. But thanks for sharing! That’s very interesting.

 

[vsedriver]

So, the whole BC/AD thing wasn’t put into action until the year 700? I’m a bit confused by what you mean.

yes, every society has it’s own time keeping scale. That’s why the Chinese have a New Year in Feb. The Jews have their own year count and the Roman’s counted their years with the year 0 as the year Rome was founded.

Western society which became almost entirely Christian began to record history with the year of Christ’s birth. AD stands for Anno Domini or the Year of our Lord.

 

[Khalid]

As a corollary, except for writings attributed to Caesar, there is no evidence whatsoever that Julius Caesar ever existed. Same for Marcus Aurelius 300 years after Jesus died. There is no evidence at all, outside of a fragmentary list (the donation of Antony) and Plutarch’s Lives of the Twelve Caesars that Augustus Caesar, Tiberius Caesar, or Nero Caesar ever existed.

Do you doubt that Caesar existed? The evidence for Jesus’ historical existence is far better than for the Caesars. There’s not a serious scholar on the face of the planet who doubts Jesus’ actual historical existence, although some doubt His divinity, being Atheistic in outlook. Only crackpot conspiracy theorists doubt the historical Jesus.

If you have doubts about God, there are many ways to rectify that: the Five Ways of Thomas Aquinas, the Argument from Design, the Argument from Absolute Morality as used by CS Lewis, the Argument from Transcendence, the Argument from Belief: the existence of a creator-God can be proven conclusively with no recourse to any historical documents, nay, anything outside of the logical capacities of your own rational mind.

Once you are firm in your faith in God, the Creator, who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, the faith in Jesus follows naturally as the only possible extension and reconciliation of these three properties. The Argument from Incompatible Attributes arises and is espoused by those who do not understand the nature of God’s sacrifice in the Paschal mystery of Jesus. Early Jewish attempt to reconcile the three omnis with the world as we perceive it are found in the Book of Job and Qoheleth.

I can present these arguments myself, but I believe it would be better if you looked them up in their original sources, and read the context surrounding them for a more full and complete, and unshakable, understanding.

 

[Khalid]

but their are floodgates in the sky and the world is flat. That is a true appearance of the world. Unless you’ve never stood in a real heavy downpour which is like having someone open flood gates and if you look across your land it sure does look flat with maybe a few hills and even mountains. But you don’t get the sense of a ‘round’ world.

Perception can be just as true as fact.

The 73 books of the Bible were all written by different authors, or about 40 authors at that. There is no relation between Genesis and the New Testament insofar as the authorship goes: they are separated by almost 1500 years. Imagine writing about the world during King Arthur’s time.

The Holy Spirit moves the authors to write salvific truth, not absolute scientific truth. The Bible is not a book of science, and many Protestants don’t seem to see that. The authors write from the scientific perspective of their own time and knowledge, with the eternal salvific knowledge of God from the Holy Spirit. The Bible is infallible in matters relating to faith, but not inerrant in all aspects.

(Note: this is not an endorsement of my particular views, but it is within the range of acceptable, viz. not heretical, views, as taught by the Holy Magisterium. I personally do hold the Genesis account to be accurate, and as such account myself an old-Earth creationist or a theistic evolutionist [commonly called with some alterations, “intelligent design”, today]).

The Bible is composed of 73 books, each as distinct as any book you might find at a bookstore today. They are bound together because of a common theme, not because of a common author, or common level of education, or a common time-period etc.

Even in the New Testament, St Mark seems barely literate, but he still composes a beautiful Gospel, and St Luke is so exceedingly literate and beautiful in prose that he would be nominated for a Pulitzer Prize today. St Paul has the feel of someone who is hyper-educated and beyond simple literacy, but always in a rush while dictating his letters.

**Imagine if Jesus said, “Disciples, I tell ye in truth, that the stationary energy of a given object is equal to its mass multiplied by the speed of the Light that passes between the Earth and the Sun, multiplied by itself: and I say unto ye, this is the sum of the rest energy and kinetic energy of the object of which I spake.”
**
If he had, there wouldn’t be any Christianity today, for he’d never have gathered any disciples.

Adding my above post so it’s read:

As a corollary, except for writings attributed to Caesar, there is no evidence whatsoever that Julius Caesar ever existed. Same for Marcus Aurelius 300 years after Jesus died. There is no evidence at all, outside of a fragmentary list (the donation of Antony) and Plutarch’s Lives of the Twelve Caesars that Augustus Caesar, Tiberius Caesar, or Nero Caesar ever existed.

Do you doubt that Caesar existed? The evidence for Jesus’ historical existence is equal to or better than for the Caesars of Rome. There’s not a serious scholar on the face of the planet who doubts Jesus’ actual historical existence, although some doubt His divinity, being Atheistic in outlook. Only crackpot conspiracy theorists doubt the historical Jesus.

If you have doubts about God, there are many ways to rectify that: the Five Ways of Thomas Aquinas, the Argument from Design, the Argument from Absolute Morality as used by CS Lewis, the Argument from Transcendence, the Argument from Belief: the existence of a creator-God can be proven conclusively with no recourse to any historical documents, nay, anything outside of the logical capacities of your own rational mind.

Once you are firm in your faith in God, the Creator, who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, the faith in Jesus follows naturally as the only possible extension and reconciliation of these three properties. The Argument from Incompatible Attributes arises and is espoused by those who do not understand the nature of God’s sacrifice in the Paschal mystery of Jesus. Early Jewish attempt to reconcile the three omnis with the world as we perceive it are found in the Book of Job and Qoheleth.

I can present these arguments myself, but I believe it would be better if you looked them up in their original sources, and read the context surrounding them for a more full and complete, and unshakable, understanding.

 

[TimothyH]

I will pray for you as well. I have had similar doubts before, which in the end helped spur my entrance into full communion with Rome as a Catholic!

Bless you in your journey!

I was kinda thinking this and smiling to myself a little. Not that I was smiling because Tess_marie is in a state of dispair but that this might be right where she needs to be, right where God wants her.

Sometimes we have to go to that dark place before we can come out into the light on the other side. Sometimes we have to enter the tomb with Jesus before we can rise with him in the ressurection, know what I mean? Its a rough place to be but sometimes we have to go there.

In my journey, it wasn’t doubt about Jesus’ existence but doubt about God’s ability to free me from sin. When he did, after many years of struggle, it left absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. I hope the same is true for Tess_marie, that she comes out on the other side with a rock solid, unshakable faith in not only the existence of Jesus, but of exactly who he is and what that means to her personally.

And for that I will pray.

-Tim-

 

[Tess_marie]

Thank you for your responses khalid and timothy h. You’ve been helpful!