Expecting Baby #7 and thinking about the future

[Mintaka]

I have mentioned this before on other threads about NFP… But it is important to remember that until early modern times (and a lot later in places like Ireland, and nowadays in Eastern churches), it was usual for married couples to fast from sex during a large part of the year, as a discipline of the Church, on pain of sin. (And that came down from Judaism.)

Advent, Lent, Fridays, Saturday night before Mass, often Wednesdays too…

So yes, NFP is basically asking for less “continence” than your average medieval peasant couple was asked to do. And endless fertility was not the way it worked for everyone. (Although sure, there were some big medieval families from well-nourished women who spent a lot of time with their husbands.)

So clearly the Church asking for openness to children is not demanding that married couples have sex like a machine. Quite the opposite.

 

[Emeraldlady]

In what ways?

The Church had first hand witness and responsibility for the tragic cases because it is a fact that the majority of children in orphanages and under the watch of the Church’s social outreach charities of the day, were not technically orphans but children that couldn’t be properly cared for in mostly large families.

 

[13pollitos]

Really? The only reason is they were in large families? Any proof of that would be appreciated.

 

[TheLittleLady]

What God gives us and what we simply arrange of our own free will are two different things.

Spacing children through moral means is not somehow “distrusting God”.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2370

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation . For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

 

[Emeraldlady]

Really? The only reason is they were in large families? Any proof of that would be appreciated.

This is a report from more recent times but I’ll search for stats from the past. There are many many anecdotes though in the news about children who recall their time in orphanages in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s who were there because their families just weren’t able to cope with large families.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...y-orphans-this-group-wants-to-help-them-30313

 

[TheLittleLady]

When threads take this turn, we often get to the debate over if poor people are supposed to have kids. Let’s not go there, because every parent has a moral right to have children. A couple discerns themselves if they can welcome children now or if they should abstain.

 

[13pollitos]

Spacing children through moral means is not somehow “distrusting God”.

I don’t doubt that. I just don’t like the idea of implying that large families are in someway less likely to properly care for their children. Most of the people I know that are not great parents have only one or two kids.

 

[13pollitos]

But why is it assumed that it is due to the number of children and not the circumstances? Very few large families disintegrate due to another child and instead it was heading that way for years over many other issues. Many families that only have one or two kids have had their children placed in care as well.

 

[13pollitos]

THANK YOU. I agree parents need to decide with God and it is no one else’s business. It just seems so wrong to me that large families are so discouraged both online and in real life, but that does not mean I do not like small families as well! I have only given birth to two children, the others were adopted. Nothing wrong with accepting that God has other plans even if you wanted more. People just need to remember that following God’s will sometimes requires us to sacrifice our own desires. God knows how badly my husband and I would have loved to have had many, many more kids than we do so yes it does go both ways.

 

[Emeraldlady]

But why is it assumed that it is due to the number of children and not the circumstances? Very few large families disintegrate due to another child and instead it was heading that way for years over many other issues. Many families that only have one or two kids have had their children placed in care as well.

Lets stick to the real problem then instead of going off on that line as has been suggested. There is a problem that besieges some Catholic communities and cultures of what Pope Francis called ‘ideological colonisation’. He connected that with what could be irresponsibility in family planning and bear in mind I’m conscious of the OP’s conundrum. She mentioned that her mother was an influence in her feeling of obligation to have lots of children. Even on this thread a poster has said that nfp is not allowable.

 

[13pollitos]

irresponsibility in family planning

If that is what the pope had in mind he had a VERY poor way of saying it. It was very gross what he said. A “well planned family” is not immune to the problems that lead to disfunction either. Many people find resilience hard regardless of how well they planned their lives out. When families have very unexpected hardships fall on them, they either comfort each other and bounce back or they crumble.

Trying to have as many children as possible is not and never has been a catholic belief. The church has never found that to be a goal of marriage. Her mom may not have been understood or may have been wrong. We don’t know because mom hasn’t told us what she truly believes or why. Neither having or avoiding children due to outside pressure has been spoken against by several popes so it really doesn’t matter what her mom thinks. The church makes it clear it’s not her place to decide. There was a time however that large families were embraced by the church as generous. Responsible parenthood referred to the care of children not the amount of children.

Pope Francis called ‘ideological colonisation’.

I looked up ideological colonization and found several instances of Pope Francis using that term to describe gender theory, abortion, etc. He used it to describe abortion and birth control programs being pushed on African countries and school books teaching gender theory and gay marriage.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/11/21/pope-francis-ideological-colonization-blasphemy-god/

From the link:

“Francis has used the term “ideological colonization” to describe what he sees as a form of oppression of developing societies by affluent ones, especially the West, through imposing an alien worldview or set of values on poorer societies, often by making adoption of those values a condition of humanitarian or development aid.“

Disagreeing with your mom, your spouse, fellow posters on the internet, or other Catholics in real life is not ideological colonization. It simply means you disagree.

 

[Anicette]

I agree with you @13pollitos, what put on the term “ideological colozation” is not a lack of birth control because of religious conviction against it.

Ideological colonization is trying to impose cultural norms on others countries/foreign people of the Western world. For eg, Obianuju Ekeocha (who represents the Holy See an UN conferences) use this term to describe imposition of modern birth control methods on African people, or imposition of birth rate reduction over some African governments as a condition to continued to keep their aids to developement given by some western countries.

idelogical colinization can include pression put on governments by some europeans countries/western organization to recognized a legal right to an abortion in safe conditions, or social recognization of homosexuality to maintain these developement fundings.

 

[Emeraldlady]

In Pope Francis interview on ‘ideological colonization’ he raised the danger of irresponsible childbearing based on the false belief that to be a good Catholic means to have a lot of children. I think it is disingenuous not to acknowledge that that ideology exists in the minds of some Catholics and causes problems with catechising children and newcomers. And distress to those who don’t feel they can legitimately call it quits at any point before menopause.

 

[13pollitos]

In Pope Francis interview on ‘ideological colonization’ he raised the danger of irresponsible childbearing

Do you have a link because I have not seen this. Only the inflight interview when he gave that horrible quote. I am not saying you are wrong, I just would like to read that myself. Everything I came across speaking of ideological colonization had to do with affluent societies and poor societies or schools imposing gender theory on children and that sort of thing.

ETA: Even in articles I have found about the inflight interview from Asia where he spoke in unfortunate terms about motherhood, when he mentions ideological colonization it is referencing government policies imposed on weaker societies and not used in the way you suggest

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

In Pope Francis interview on ‘ideological colonization’ he raised the danger of irresponsible childbearing

Do you have a link because I have not seen this. Only the inflight interview when he gave that horrible quote. I am not saying you are wrong, I just would like to read that myself. Everything I came across speaking of ideological colonization had to do with affluent societies and poor societies or schools imposing gender theory on children and that sort of thing.

ETA: Even in articles I have found about the inflight interview from Asia where he spoke in unfortunate terms about motherhood, when he mentions ideological colonization it is referencing government policies imposed on weaker societies and not used in the way you suggest

That was all part and parcel of the inflight interview.

10.CHURCH’S RESPONSE TO CRITICISM OF ITS STANCE ON BIRTH CONTROL

Christoph Schmidt (CIC): How does the Church respond to the criticisms about its position on birth control given that the world population is growing so much. And to the criticism that the poverty in the Philippines is due to the fact that Filipino women have an average of 3 children each?

PF: I think the number of 3 (children) per family that you mentioned, it is the one experts say is important to keep the population going,. three per couple. When it goes below this, the other extreme happens, like what is happing in Italy. I have heard, I do not know if it is true, that in 2024 there will be no money to pay pensioners (because of) the fall in population.

Therefore, to give you an answer, they key word is the one the Church always uses all the time and even I use it: it is responsible parenthood. how do we do this? With dialogue. Each person with his pastor seeks how to do that responsible parenthood.

That example i mentioned shortly before about that woman who was expecting her eighth (child) and already had seven who were born with caesareans. That is an irresponsibility (That woman might say) ‘no but I trust in god’ But God gives you methods to be responsible. Some think that, excuse me if i use that word, that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits. No. Responsible parenthood! This is clear and that is why in the church there are marriage groups, there are experts in this matter, there are pastors, one can seek and i know so many, many ways out that are licit and that have helped this. You did well to ask me this.

Another thing in relation to this is that for the most poor people, a child is a treasure. It is true that you have to be prudent here too but for them a child is a treasure. (Some would say) ‘God knows how to help me’ and perhaps some of them are not prudent, this is true. Responsible paternity but let us also look at the generosity of that father and mother that see a treasure in every child.

 

[13pollitos]

I take issue with the things he says about the mom for many reasons. One being the disturbing words he uses but also because he is using his position to pressure someone into using NFP when it is up to no one but the couple and God. No one should be pressured to have or not have children. It isn’t anyone’s place to do that. But no where in this does he suggest that some catholics impose ideological colonization on other Catholics against responsible parenthood.

 

[13pollitos]

My hope is he was just sloppy in trying to say that people can use NFP to space and avoid children while also trying to say that it should be noted that 3 children per couple (higher than average) can help societies stay afloat and poor people having children aren’t irresponsible. I just know a great many women were deeply hurt with what he said and how he said it. Generosity is a good thing for Catholic couples to strive towards and that generosity looks different for each of us. A lady I go to church with has 10 kids. Eight were C-sections. I know she was very hurt and considered leaving the church after this interview. She told me that she was hurt so badly because it is implied that all women recover in the same way as others and that simply isn’t true. She consulted her dr before each and every pregnancy to see his thoughts on her recovery. Her mom had three C-sections and was advised not to have anymore children so she didn’t. She said that so often women who have C-sections already feel bad that things didn’t happen naturally for them and the added criticism of being irresponsible from the pope of all people for having those C-sections nearly crushed her. She’s a strong woman and has remained faithful to the Church; however, she is much more reserved in her service to it.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I take issue with the things he says about the mom for many reasons. One being the disturbing words he uses but also because he is using his position to pressure someone into using NFP when it is up to no one but the couple and God. No one should be pressured to have or not have children. It isn’t anyone’s place to do that. But no where in this does he suggest that some catholics impose ideological colonization on other Catholics against responsible parenthood.

He is not pressuring someone into NFP. That is why the comments have to be taken in relation to the whole issue that is being addressed by that interview. Catholicism rejects certain means of ‘family planning’ but that does not mean that Catholics are obliged to have children without any planning. He uses the example of a woman in dire circumstances that he obviously knows something about, to demonstrate the wrongness of deferring responsibility to an ideology that denies free will. It is the flip side of the coin that takes God out of the picture in family planning, that takes our part out of the picture.

 

[thelibrarian]

I suggest you invest in a fertility monitor. Many women utilize them in addition to NFP to achieve pregnancy - but it can also help you to avoid pregnancy. You may be “off” in your calculations if you get busy and are not paying attention, or your cycle is thrown off. It is a qualified purchase under many HSA health savings account plans and they run I think $150-300 but far less expensive to any permanent birth control you might be tempted to contemplate.

 

[Emeraldlady]

The OP seems to be feeling crushed under the weight of pressure to have a lot of children to be a good Catholic as well. She expresses a sadly common sentiment among those catechised in certain strict Catholic circles. People need reassurance that while artificial family planning is forbidden, family planning itself is not forbidden and we are not bad Catholics for finding our limit in under 10 children.