T
total_Catholic
Guest
staycatholic.com/
socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/06/catalogue-index-catholic-apologetics.html
catholicbible101.com/
Hope this helps. Stay firm my friend. TRUST ME, I’VE BEEN THERE.
- Status
socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/06/catalogue-index-catholic-apologetics.html
catholicbible101.com/
Hope this helps. Stay firm my friend. TRUST ME, I’VE BEEN THERE.
I
iepuras
Guest
- No. Look outside the West. Christianity is growing in Africa and Asia and strengthening in Eastern Europe. There is persecution in the Middle East, Africa, China and many other places. The blood of the martyrs strengthens the True Faith.
- Absolutely. There is *nothing *in my previous faith that I want to return to. Why would I ever consider going back? It was false. I now receive my Lord in the Eucharist. Where else *can *I go?
- The parish where I was baptized, while large, has a good sense of community if you make an effort to participate in more than just Mass. We now attend a Byzantine parish and have a real feeling of community there. I have friends at the other parish and we are still involved in certain things there simply because it is closer than our Byzantine parish.
Do I have any regrets? Absolutely not. I do not regret converting for one second. When I started on the road home to the Catholic Church, I didn’t know the price I would have to pay. If I knew then what I know now, I would still go down that road. Truth is what is important to me. I have my Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. What else could I possibly need and where else could I possibly go?
C
CaliLobo
Guest
UPDATE:
So I met with the deacon of my parish today. Unfortunately it only led to more confusion.
To paraphrase, he said:
So I met with the deacon of my parish today. Unfortunately it only led to more confusion.
To paraphrase, he said:
- There is no requirement in Catholicism that we vote against SSM and abortion rights. If gay people love each other, they should be able to get civilly married. The only thing that is required for Catholics is that priests do not perform the sacrament of matrimony for a gay couple. (Which has been my thesis on CAF)
- In general, there is no one size fits all doctrine when it comes to politics, because life is so complicated. Although Catholics are opposed to abortion, there is room for a policy that allows abortion in some circumstances, including protecting women from dangerous underground abortions. (Another thesis of mine on CAF)
- People need to consult with their informed conscience when making decisions, including those about contraception. If their informed consciences lead them to a certain direction, it is okay, even if there is written doctrine elsewhere that says it is a sin. God is a loving God, and he will not send people to hell simply because they did not mechanically follow the law in all circumstances.
- The Church is a big church and there is room for conservative and liberal.
- All that matters is that we have a relationship with God, no matter what our faith is. This is because when we meet God when we die, God will not ask whether we were Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc. All He will ask is whether we lived a virtuous life. That is why cafeteria Catholicism is okay. (So evangelism is not a big deal? RCIA is not a big deal? Should we let Islam take over Europe?)
- Vatican II was a much need liberalization of the Church, to bring in fresh air, according to John XXIII. Since then, conservatives have attempted to undermine it, and were almost successful with the election of Benedict. Benedict reversed much of the progress of Vatican II, and Francis is allowing the Church to move forward again. (The program directors are quite enthusiastic about Vatican II.)
- In almost all divorce situations, one can make a finding that there never was a valid marriage to begin with, often due to immaturity and lack of knowledge of the sacrament of matrimony.
R
Rau
Guest
The deacon is a fraud, or you are not being truthful.UPDATE:
So I met with the deacon of my parish today. To paraphrase, he said:
I was really upset about #3, #5, and #6. Any thoughts? Told you this RCIA program was vanilla. If what this deacon said was true, was all the posting I’ve done on CAF over the last few years all for nothing??
- There is no requirement in Catholicism that we vote against SSM and abortion rights. If gay people love each other, they should be able to get civilly married. The only thing that is required for Catholics is that priests do not perform the sacrament of matrimony for a gay couple. (Which has been my thesis on CAF)
- In general, there is no one size fits all doctrine when it comes to politics, because life is so complicated. Although Catholics are opposed to abortion, there is room for a policy that allows abortion in some circumstances, including protecting women from dangerous underground abortions. (Another thesis of mine on CAF)
- People need to consult with their informed conscience when making decisions, including those about contraception. If their informed consciences lead them to a certain direction, it is okay, even if there is written doctrine elsewhere that says it is a sin. God is a loving God, and he will not send people to hell simply because they did not mechanically follow the law in all circumstances.
- The Church is a big church and there is room for conservative and liberal.
- All that matters is that we have a relationship with God, no matter what our faith is. This is because when we meet God when we die, God will not ask whether we were Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc. All He will ask is whether we lived a virtuous life. That is why cafeteria Catholicism is okay. (So evangelism is not a big deal? RCIA is not a big deal? Should we let Islam take over Europe?)
- Vatican II was a much need liberalization of the Church, to bring in fresh air, according to John XXIII. Since then, conservatives have attempted to undermine it, and were almost successful with the election of Benedict. Benedict reversed much of the progress of Vatican II, and Francis is allowing the Church to move forward again. (The program directors are quite enthusiastic about Vatican II.)
- In almost all divorce situations, one can make a finding that there never was a valid marriage to begin with, often due to immaturity and lack of knowledge of the sacrament of matrimony.
R
Rau
Guest
Then you would have us believe the Deacon stands in opposition to his Church?
W
WilliamOK
Guest
I scanned through so I might have missed some things you said in the thread, but one thing that I agree with is that there is a lot more diversity in the Catholic church than most people outside Catholicism realize. But every church has human flaws. Even if you stay Protestant there are going to be some things you are dissatisfied with.
It sounds like you might just need to find a better Catholic parish. Are there other parishes within driving distance?
It sounds like you might just need to find a better Catholic parish. Are there other parishes within driving distance?
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
The advice the deacon gave you was horrible advice. Absolutely ridiculous. I’m hopeful u misunderstood but wouldn’t be surprised if he meant if and believed it. Men aren’t perfect…even priests and deacons. Seek out a parish that has faithful pastoral staff.
C
casslean
Guest
I’m sorry, but I do doubt the veracity of some of your answers. Do I think you are being deliberately dishonest? No. Do I think you have a tendency to spin what you hear? Yes. Your attitude in this thread has strongly suggested that to me.
That having been said, nothing in your answers, even if they were entirely true, would give me pause. You need to separate the Church, with her teachings and her truth, from the people within the Church. People are imperfect; the Church is not. The truth offered by the Catholic Church is not.
I will not be engaging any further on this thread, because my own baptism is drawing very near, and I am taking this time to more fully embrace this faith and the joy it has brought to my life.
That having been said, nothing in your answers, even if they were entirely true, would give me pause. You need to separate the Church, with her teachings and her truth, from the people within the Church. People are imperfect; the Church is not. The truth offered by the Catholic Church is not.
I will not be engaging any further on this thread, because my own baptism is drawing very near, and I am taking this time to more fully embrace this faith and the joy it has brought to my life.
P
PJM
Guest
What he told you is a LIE; as I have shown by posting Instrudtions from the USCCBI was really upset about #3, #5, and #6. Any thoughts? Told you this RCIA program was vanilla. If what this deacon said was true, was all the posting I’ve done on CAF over the last few years all for nothing??
United Sates Catholic Bishops Conference
#11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church’s Magisterium. It is intended to serve “as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries”.
#2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.
#891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
#890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
SSA was not an issue when this Catechism was written
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
God Bless you,
Patrick
C
CaliLobo
Guest
What I said regarding the deacon is what I got out of the conversation. If I misquoted him, I will take responsibility. But I believe my paraphrase of his words is quite accurate.
I don’t know what I did to lose your trust. But my confusion is real. I am about to visit an Evangelical church later today to confirm that the CC is the direction I want to go.
W
without
Guest
If you are conflicted then take another year and attend RCIA a second time. Be sure you are ready and are able to believe everything in the creed and to follow the teachings of the magisterium. If you are not then wait until you do.
It seems you are asking others for an answer that only you can provide.
T
the_phoenix
Guest
I believe you, CaliLobo.
I am very sorry you ran into this kind of a deacon.
I will pray for the deacon’s conversion, so that he will follow the Pope
and the Teachings of the Church.
I am a cradle Catholic.
And yes, I have lost friends due to following my religion.
In fact, I once lost a full-time, permanent job due to following my religion …
I started some threads here on CAF in the Prayer Intentions section of the forum
years ago when it happened.
And I’m single, and it looks like that’s going to be for life.
And it can seem sometimes that some Protestant churches appear to be more friendly.
But I’m staying Catholic.
Jesus in the Eucharist is worth it.
Sounds like you need to look for a good parish
where they teach actual Catholic beliefs
instead of relativism and situational ethics.
Acknowledge God.
Take the next right step.
Be a sign of hope to those around you.
~~ the phoenix
I am very sorry you ran into this kind of a deacon.
I will pray for the deacon’s conversion, so that he will follow the Pope
and the Teachings of the Church.
I am a cradle Catholic.
And yes, I have lost friends due to following my religion.
In fact, I once lost a full-time, permanent job due to following my religion …
I started some threads here on CAF in the Prayer Intentions section of the forum
years ago when it happened.
And I’m single, and it looks like that’s going to be for life.
And it can seem sometimes that some Protestant churches appear to be more friendly.
But I’m staying Catholic.
Jesus in the Eucharist is worth it.
Sounds like you need to look for a good parish
where they teach actual Catholic beliefs
instead of relativism and situational ethics.
Acknowledge God.
Take the next right step.
Be a sign of hope to those around you.
~~ the phoenix
UPDATE:
So I met with the deacon of my parish today. Unfortunately it only led to more confusion.
To paraphrase, he said:
I was really upset about #3, #5, and #6. Any thoughts? Told you this RCIA program was vanilla. If what this deacon said was true, was all the posting I’ve done on CAF over the last few years all for nothing??
- There is no requirement in Catholicism that we vote against SSM and abortion rights. If gay people love each other, they should be able to get civilly married. The only thing that is required for Catholics is that priests do not perform the sacrament of matrimony for a gay couple. (Which has been my thesis on CAF)
- In general, there is no one size fits all doctrine when it comes to politics, because life is so complicated. Although Catholics are opposed to abortion, there is room for a policy that allows abortion in some circumstances, including protecting women from dangerous underground abortions. (Another thesis of mine on CAF)
- People need to consult with their informed conscience when making decisions, including those about contraception. If their informed consciences lead them to a certain direction, it is okay, even if there is written doctrine elsewhere that says it is a sin. God is a loving God, and he will not send people to hell simply because they did not mechanically follow the law in all circumstances.
- The Church is a big church and there is room for conservative and liberal.
- All that matters is that we have a relationship with God, no matter what our faith is. This is because when we meet God when we die, God will not ask whether we were Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc. All He will ask is whether we lived a virtuous life. That is why cafeteria Catholicism is okay. (So evangelism is not a big deal? RCIA is not a big deal? Should we let Islam take over Europe?)
- Vatican II was a much need liberalization of the Church, to bring in fresh air, according to John XXIII. Since then, conservatives have attempted to undermine it, and were almost successful with the election of Benedict. Benedict reversed much of the progress of Vatican II, and Francis is allowing the Church to move forward again. (The program directors are quite enthusiastic about Vatican II.)
- In almost all divorce situations, one can make a finding that there never was a valid marriage to begin with, often due to immaturity and lack of knowledge of the sacrament of matrimony.
R
Rau
Guest
Cali - do you recall reading a document (from the relevant Vatican authority) posted on CAF that declared the obligations of Catholics in respect of these matters? Did the good Deacon mention that to you? I have trouble believing that a Deacon could be this ignorant, or would utter these ideas were he not ignorant of the facts.
*“10. If it is true that all Catholics are obliged to oppose the legal recognition of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are obliged to do so in a particular way, in keeping with their responsibility as politicians. Faced with legislative proposals in favour of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are to take account of the following ethical indications.”*Source: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
This is expressed as a personal view. Did the good Deacon mention that the Church has never expressed such a view? Did he direct you to any authentic Church teaching on the subject, such as:
*14. Divine law and natural reason, therefore, exclude all right to the direct killing of an innocent man. However, if the reasons given to justify an abortion were always manifestly evil and valueless the problem would not be so dramatic. The gravity of the problem comes from the fact that in certain cases, perhaps in quite a considerable number of cases, by denying abortion one endangers important values to which it is normal to attach great value, and which may sometimes even seem to have priority. We do not deny these very great difficulties. It may be a serious question of health, sometimes of life or death, for the mother; it may be the burden represented by an additional child, especially if there are good reasons to fear that the child will be abnormal or retarded; it may be the importance attributed in different classes of society to considerations of honor or dishonor, of loss of social standing, and so forth. We proclaim only that none of these reasons can ever objectively confer the right to dispose of another’s life, even when that life is only beginning. With regard to the future unhappiness of the child, no one, not even the father or mother, can act as its substitute- even if it is still in the embryonic stage- to choose in the child’s name, life or death. The child itself, when grown up, will never have the right to choose suicide; no more may his parents choose death for the child while it is not of an age to decide for itself. Life is too fundamental a value to be weighed against even very serious disadvantages.[21]*Source: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
See also: CCC 2270-2271
Did the good Deacon suggest that an “informed conscience” can be diametrically opposed to Church doctrine of which you are fully aware? The following may guide you on this topic - you might like to read it, and the references it makes to the CCC and other documents.
cuf.org/2004/04/going-gods-way-the-churchs-teaching-on-moral-conscience/
4) The Church is a big church and there is room for conservative and liberal.
I don’t believe one is doomed for being in the “wrong” Church. That is not the same as choosing a Church on the wrong grounds, or departing from the moral principles that don’t suit.
Vatican II was in the early 60s. Many changes to various practice and disciplines were promulgated - doctrines were not changed. Some people strenuously object to the Mass not being always in Latin and there are “conservatives” who’d like to go back to that. So?
Another personal opinion I suppose?
The statements attributed to the Deacon depart from Catholic teaching in several ways.
C
CaliLobo
Guest
UPDATE:
Yesterday I visited an Evangelical church for what could be the second-to-last time as a non-Catholic.
This is a church that only started a few months ago but is able to fill up a high school assembly room twice every Sunday.
Everything was as I expected. A two hour service, and over 30 minutes of great rock music. The passion was palpable. Too much to be completely fake. People lifting arms, jumping, dancing, bobbing heads, I started bobbing my head myself.
There was more zeal in that assembly room at that moment than possibly in my entire Catholic diocese combined.
The church is likely brimming with confidence, thinking it is doing the right things to convert the whole city and beyond. It may very well do so. It is well connected; it has already arranged with an NBA team (!) to perform worship music after a basketball game, to be attended by several churches in my area. They have other social events to bring people to hang out together in a downtown bar/lounge in my city. They have mastered the use of social media, art, and video to enhance communication as well.
It is clear, once again I am a witness to how Evangelical churches are mastering the art of fostering community. No wonder why young adults flock to this stuff and not Mass, because community is what young people want. The Catholics have much to learn in this area.
The crowd is mostly young adults but not overwhelmingly. I could become a member, join a small group, make a ton of friends through this church, and be reasonably happy.
But I don’t know. The fact that I’ve never been able to date in an Evangelical church, I really think there’s a reason for that. History might repeat itself and I might end up disappointed in Evangelical community once again.
Your thoughts?
Yesterday I visited an Evangelical church for what could be the second-to-last time as a non-Catholic.
This is a church that only started a few months ago but is able to fill up a high school assembly room twice every Sunday.
Everything was as I expected. A two hour service, and over 30 minutes of great rock music. The passion was palpable. Too much to be completely fake. People lifting arms, jumping, dancing, bobbing heads, I started bobbing my head myself.
There was more zeal in that assembly room at that moment than possibly in my entire Catholic diocese combined.
The church is likely brimming with confidence, thinking it is doing the right things to convert the whole city and beyond. It may very well do so. It is well connected; it has already arranged with an NBA team (!) to perform worship music after a basketball game, to be attended by several churches in my area. They have other social events to bring people to hang out together in a downtown bar/lounge in my city. They have mastered the use of social media, art, and video to enhance communication as well.
It is clear, once again I am a witness to how Evangelical churches are mastering the art of fostering community. No wonder why young adults flock to this stuff and not Mass, because community is what young people want. The Catholics have much to learn in this area.
The crowd is mostly young adults but not overwhelmingly. I could become a member, join a small group, make a ton of friends through this church, and be reasonably happy.
But I don’t know. The fact that I’ve never been able to date in an Evangelical church, I really think there’s a reason for that. History might repeat itself and I might end up disappointed in Evangelical community once again.
Your thoughts?
C
casslean
Guest
What are you looking for? God or a good time?
Music, dancing, lots of young adults? Weighing your chances of finding good dating opportunities? Is this really about the spiritual experience for you? Because nowhere in your description did I read anything about where you felt like you were best able to connect to God.
I attended an ecumenical service on Friday night that the CWL was participating in with the other churches in the area. The choir was exceptional. There was a DVD played which was lovely. But I couldn’t find the place in myself where I felt like I could speak to God and hear him speaking to me. The words were empty.
You’re comparing churches like they’re dance clubs. I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
Music, dancing, lots of young adults? Weighing your chances of finding good dating opportunities? Is this really about the spiritual experience for you? Because nowhere in your description did I read anything about where you felt like you were best able to connect to God.
I attended an ecumenical service on Friday night that the CWL was participating in with the other churches in the area. The choir was exceptional. There was a DVD played which was lovely. But I couldn’t find the place in myself where I felt like I could speak to God and hear him speaking to me. The words were empty.
You’re comparing churches like they’re dance clubs. I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
W
WilliamOK
Guest
I agree with this, for what it’s worth.
Another idea - and I’m not sure how smart this is - but I’ve heard of one guy that I respect that actually does this …
What about attending both the Catholic and the Protestant church for a while ? The best of both worlds. I know that you kind of have to make a choice eventually about what you really believe. And it is not a trivial matter, because sometimes you find yourself in situations where you have to pull back from, say, participating in something that would be faking if you don’t really believe it. But if you’re just attending, … I don’t know maybe this is an option? I’ve never actually done it myself, but as I said somebody I respect does it and it seems to work for him. He is a Catholic, but he goes to Evangelical church regularly too.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
I got to agree with the last few posters.
If your looking for a date maybe try some online dating site.
If your looking for a social club, maybe the Kiwanis club or something.
If your looking for a concert venue…maybe go to some small clubs.
If your looking for a nice sermon…try some lectures online or at a local college.
But
If your looking for God, looking for receiving his grace in the sacraments, looking to be molded into a saint, then become Catholic…When your primary focus is in the right place, I imagine a lot of your other needs will be met too.
If your looking for a date maybe try some online dating site.
If your looking for a social club, maybe the Kiwanis club or something.
If your looking for a concert venue…maybe go to some small clubs.
If your looking for a nice sermon…try some lectures online or at a local college.
But
If your looking for God, looking for receiving his grace in the sacraments, looking to be molded into a saint, then become Catholic…When your primary focus is in the right place, I imagine a lot of your other needs will be met too.
- Status