Experience some last-minute resistance before being Catholic

[gracepoole]

Without trying to sound disrespectful, when you described the rock music at the Evangelical service you attended, I literally said “Ewww” out loud. Some Catholics are into this kind of thing and it’s largely personal preference – but your comment that the “passion was palpable” is sort of creepy to a lifelong Catholic (albeit one who has spent long periods struggling with her faith). To each his own, I guess. Having grown up in parishes that tried to modernize the liturgy through “new” music, I’ll pass. Mass isn’t supposed to be a party – it’s a solemn recreation and memorialization of Christ’s death. I don’t recall any descriptions of people partying at the foot of the crucifix in the Bible. But surely you’re aware of this – you’ve said you think you likely know more than others included in RCIA, including your sponsor.

As for your deacon, again I’m confused. It’s true that much of what he said isn’t in line with Church teachings. But given your previous comments about abortion and same-sex marriage as alluded to by other posters, I’m not seeing why this is a problem for you? You’re attending a liberal parish – yes, these exist. I’m surrounded by many Catholics – both in and out of my family – who are progressive Catholics. I really don’t care to offer judgement on these folks at the moment but they aren’t the only Catholics out there. If you’re dissatisfied with what this deacon said, the RCIA experience, etc. at your local parish, find another. (You will have to give up the hope of rock music in Mass, however, if you make such a switch – conservative and traditionally minded Catholics don’t typically go for rocking out in the pews.

Perhaps it’s time for you to answer questions instead of posing them. I still don’t have any idea why you’re in RCIA or why you wanted to become Catholic in the first place. Whenever someone here notes that the Church is the one true faith founded by God and not some random man, or whenever someone reminds you that at Mass, you receive the actual body and blood of Christ and not some pale and lifeless representation, you respond with more complaints about music, community, women… All things that again are obviously somewhat ridiculous when compared with what others are telling you.

 

[PJM]

=Rau;12805838]Then you would have us believe the Deacon stands in opposition to his Church?

I allowed your first inference to pass; BUT as a FYI; over the years I have known and known of Deacons and others of this ELK more than than I care to share.

AND I AM a Lifelong Informed Practicing Roman Catholic.

I co-taught RCIA for 3 years as part of a team of 4: two of which came very close to fitting this description.

SADLY, I have ZERO doubt of this posters veracity:shrug:

God Bless you,

Patrick.

 

[jimcav]

Why do I get the feeling that if the Holy Father himself gave you all the time you needed and answered all of your questions, I would hear you say-

Well, that sounds pretty cool and all Holy Father, but you just don’t have pretty girls here, and that Christian rock band at the mega church just rocks! You should listen sometime!

Your questions have been answered thoroughly and eloquently here, yet your questions remain the same and you are still so confused? Hmmmm…

As gracepool said - Perhaps it’s time for you to answer questions instead of posing them.

Hey cali, have you given a link to this thread to your RCIA class and deacon? They should know about your “doubts”…

 

[EnglishTeacher]

If those were actually the replies that you received from your deacon (and I believe you, although it is terrible that a deacon is not better informed in the faith), why don’t you look for a different parish–one that is solid and orthodox? It sounds as though you might benefit from going through RCIA a second time, but I don’t think it will do any good to repeat the process at your current parish. Find a good parish that will teach the Catholic faith in all its fullness and without apology.

 

[CaliLobo]

"Jon S:

If your looking for God, looking for receiving his grace in the sacraments, looking to be molded into a saint, then become Catholic…When your primary focus is in the right place, I imagine a lot of your other needs will be met too.

Thanks for the kind words.

But given your previous comments about abortion and same-sex marriage as alluded to by other posters, I’m not seeing why this is a problem for you? You’re attending a liberal parish – yes, these exist. I’m surrounded by many Catholics – both in and out of my family – who are progressive Catholics. I really don’t care to offer judgement on these folks at the moment but they aren’t the only Catholics out there. If you’re dissatisfied with what this deacon said, the RCIA experience, etc. at your local parish, find another…

Perhaps it’s time for you to answer questions instead of posing them. **I still don’t have any idea why you’re in RCIA or why you wanted to become Catholic in the first place. ** Whenever someone here notes that the Church is the one true faith founded by God and not some random man, or whenever someone reminds you that at Mass, you receive the actual body and blood of Christ and not some pale and lifeless representation, you respond with more complaints about music, community, women… All things that again are obviously somewhat ridiculous when compared with what others are telling you.

I told you why I’m in RCIA.

It will be my job to figure out how to wrap my brain around the Catholic Church’s teachings, and how to practice them. However, it’s a problem for me because there is confusion as to what the Church’s teaching is in the first place!

jimcav:

Why do I get the feeling that if the Holy Father himself gave you all the time you needed and answered all of your questions, I would hear you say-

Well, that sounds pretty cool and all Holy Father, but you just don’t have pretty girls here, and that Christian rock band at the mega church just rocks! You should listen sometime!

Your questions have been answered thoroughly and eloquently here, yet your questions remain the same and you are still so confused? Hmmmm…

As gracepool said - Perhaps it’s time for you to answer questions instead of posing them.

Hey cali, have you given a link to this thread to your RCIA class and deacon? They should know about your “doubts”…

Pope Francis has been a source of confusion and consternation, not clarity. And the posts on CAF prove it. The secular left and gay community honestly thinks Francis will change moral teachings.

Don’t you understand how much trust I am breaking by posting this stuff? I’m surprised my cover hasn’t been blown by my post history on CAF.

Fortunately, some of you are understanding the gravity of the problem, so it is worth it…

 

[CaliLobo]

If those were actually the replies that you received from your deacon (and I believe you, although it is terrible that a deacon is not better informed in the faith), why don’t you look for a different parish–one that is solid and orthodox? It sounds as though you might benefit from going through RCIA a second time, but I don’t think it will do any good to repeat the process at your current parish. Find a good parish that will teach the Catholic faith in all its fullness and without apology.

This is my second go at it. The first time was much better. We got free copies of the CCC, and read parts together. The instructor didn’t waver in his convictions. That alone is awesome.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Thanks for the kind words.

I told you why I’m in RCIA.

It will be my job to figure out how to wrap my brain around the Catholic Church’s teachings, and how to practice them. However, it’s a problem for me because there is confusion as to what the Church’s teaching is in the first place!

Pope Francis has been a source of confusion and consternation, not clarity. And the posts on CAF prove it. The secular left and gay community honestly thinks Francis will change moral teachings.

Don’t you understand how much trust I am breaking by posting this stuff? I’m surprised my cover hasn’t been blown by my post history on CAF.

Fortunately, some of you are understanding the gravity of the problem, so it is worth it…

I understand where you are coming from, and I don’t doubt that your questions and concerns are honest. I will pray for you as you continue in your RCIA journey, that you find peace about becoming a Catholic, and that you get the answers and the clarity that you are looking for. Although it is probably not the easiest thing to do at this point, finding a better, more orthodox parish would really be worth it.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

This is my second go at it. The first time was much better. We got free copies of the CCC, and read parts together. The instructor didn’t waver in his convictions. That alone is awesome.

I didn’t see your reply before I posted my last answer, sorry. The first time does sound better. Is that instructor gone now?

 

[Rau]

UPDATE:

Yesterday I visited an Evangelical church for what could be the second-to-last time as a non-Catholic.

This is a church that only started a few months ago but is able to fill up a high school assembly room twice every Sunday.

Everything was as I expected. A two hour service, and over 30 minutes of great rock music. The passion was palpable. Too much to be completely fake. People lifting arms, jumping, dancing, bobbing heads, I started bobbing my head myself.

There was more zeal in that assembly room at that moment than possibly in my entire Catholic diocese combined.

The church is likely brimming with confidence, thinking it is doing the right things to convert the whole city and beyond. It may very well do so. It is well connected; it has already arranged with an NBA team (!) to perform worship music after a basketball game, to be attended by several churches in my area. They have other social events to bring people to hang out together in a downtown bar/lounge in my city. They have mastered the use of social media, art, and video to enhance communication as well.

It is clear, once again I am a witness to how Evangelical churches are mastering the art of fostering community. No wonder why young adults flock to this stuff and not Mass, because community is what young people want. The Catholics have much to learn in this area.

The crowd is mostly young adults but not overwhelmingly. I could become a member, join a small group, make a ton of friends through this church, and be reasonably happy.

But I don’t know. The fact that I’ve never been able to date in an Evangelical church, I really think there’s a reason for that. History might repeat itself and I might end up disappointed in Evangelical community once again.

Your thoughts?

Sounds like great entertainment, if that is what you are looking for.

 

[CaliLobo]

I didn’t see your reply before I posted my last answer, sorry. The first time does sound better. Is that instructor gone now?

No. But I moved out of state. Maybe I’ll contact him.

 

[Rau]

…It will be my job to figure out how to wrap my brain around the Catholic Church’s teachings, and how to practice them.

That sounds to me as though you seek a way to appear to comply without compromising the things you really believe. I could be wrong.

However, it’s a problem for me because there is confusion as to what the Church’s teaching is in the first place!…Pope Francis has been a source of confusion and consternation, not clarity. And the posts on CAF prove it.

Is there really confusion? Seems you knew the Deacon was sprouting home-grown nonsense - that is, you weren’t really confused.

The secular left and gay community honestly thinks Francis will change moral teachings.

You see some express that thought - though those that do so don’t appear to be people with much knowledge of the Catholic faith.

Don’t you understand how much trust I am breaking by posting this stuff? I’m surprised my cover hasn’t been blown by my post history on CAF.

How much trust did that Deacon break? He deserves to be called on it - not named in public, but if you’d told me you were so shocked you felt the need to challenge him, and to take the matter to his superiors, I would find that entirely reasonable.

Fortunately, some of you are understanding the gravity of the problem, so it is worth it…

I may be a bit slow - there seem to be a number of problems, and I’m not sure which one you refer to here…

 

[gracepoole]

I told you why I’m in RCIA.

You wrote:

I began RCIA because I feel the Church always knocking on my door. I agree with much of the theology and its Biblical interpretations.

“Much” of its theology? Or all of it? And what do pretty women and rock music have to do with any of this? This is why confusion remains about why you’re in RCIA and why you profess to want to be Catholic.

It will be my job to figure out how to wrap my brain around the Catholic Church’s teachings, and how to practice them. However, it’s a problem for me because there is confusion as to what the Church’s teaching is in the first place!

Holy cow. If you’re looking for real confusion about theological and biblical teachings, it would seem that sticking with Protestantism is the way to go. Again, I don’t mean to be disrespectful to all Protestants. But there’s only one Christian church that has maintained the same teachings for over 2000 years. Though some within her have failed and continue to fail at upholding her teachings, the Church has not changed.

Pope Francis has been a source of confusion and consternation, not clarity. And the posts on CAF prove it. The secular left and gay community honestly thinks Francis will change moral teachings.

I’ve really no interest in defending the Holy Father against criticisms from anyone. He’s not American and is a representative of Christ – terms like “left” and “right” are meaningless in this context. He hasn’t changed anything doctrinal. I’m not sure what CAF posts you’ve been reading about him but perhaps it’s time to refrain from doing so. People often want to inject into their faith their own thoughts on what is good or evil. Better to die to self. **That **is a noble, truly Catholic goal but an extremely hard one.

I really can’t guess what you’re looking for. A church that agrees with you or a church that requires you to bend your will to it? A church that’s all about truth or a church that’s fun? A church that has ceaselessly commemorated Christ’s sacrifice or a church that wants its attendees to feel good all the time? These really are genuine either/or questions.

Don’t you understand how much trust I am breaking by posting this stuff? I’m surprised my cover hasn’t been blown by my post history on CAF.

Fortunately, some of you are understanding the gravity of the problem, so it is worth it…

Your “cover”?

 

[DakiniArtist]

Don’t worry guys; it’s charitable popcorn.

 

[PJM]

=CaliLobo;12809242]UPDATE:

Yesterday I visited an Evangelical church for what could be the second-to-last time as a non-Catholic.

This is a church that only started a few months ago but is able to fill up a high school assembly room twice every Sunday.

Everything was as I expected. A two hour service, and over 30 minutes of great rock music. The passion was palpable. Too much to be completely fake. People lifting arms, jumping, dancing, bobbing heads, I started bobbing my head myself.

There was more zeal in that assembly room at that moment than possibly in my entire Catholic diocese combined.

The church is likely brimming with confidence, thinking it is doing the right things to convert the whole city and beyond. It may very well do so. It is well connected; it has already arranged with an NBA team (!) to perform worship music after a basketball game, to be attended by several churches in my area. They have other social events to bring people to hang out together in a downtown bar/lounge in my city. They have mastered the use of social media, art, and video to enhance communication as well.

It is clear, once again I am a witness to how Evangelical churches are mastering the art of fostering community. No wonder why young adults flock to this stuff and not Mass, because community is what young people want. The Catholics have much to learn in this area.

The crowd is mostly young adults but not overwhelmingly. I could become a member, join a small group, make a ton of friends through this church, and be reasonably happy.

But I don’t know. The fact that I’ve never been able to date in an Evangelical church, I really think there’s a reason for that. History might repeat itself and I might end up

My friend you absolutely NEED to get past what “FEELS good” and move on to what IS GOOD! They may have reat music BUT thet DON"T HAVE JESUS Christ like we Catholics DO:thumbsup::

**Liturgy is NOT about us; it IS ABOUT God and the Worship we ALONE can, and therefore MUST give unto Him. Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21 **

God BLESS you!

Patrick

 

[CaliLobo]

“Much” of its theology? Or all of it? **And what do pretty women and rock music have to do with any of this? ** This is why confusion remains about why you’re in RCIA and why you profess to want to be Catholic.

You dismiss my concerns as ridiculous, and say the Sacraments should outweigh all of this.

But I hope you don’t underestimate how paramount of an issue the wife search is for me and the helplessness I feel sometimes, because I feel I’m doing the best I can and still failing. The other day, another woman rejected me, and my desire to turn to Catholicism may be a small part of it (she doesn’t care for organized religion and says the church is full of hypocrites, which isn’t false).

I am very concerned that conversion will severely reduce my dating pool, and if rejections continue, I may have to turn away from the faith to find my wife.

To put it bluntly, I want children, and I want a mother for my children, what can I say.

This is why I have my concerns about the lack of community in a Catholic parish.

And I’ve checked out Catholic Match. There are quite a few attractive women, but very few within 50 miles of me…

gracepoole:

Holy cow. If you’re looking for real confusion about theological and biblical teachings, it would seem that sticking with Protestantism is the way to go. Again, I don’t mean to be disrespectful to all Protestants. But there’s only one Christian church that has maintained the same teachings for over 2000 years. Though some within her have failed and continue to fail at upholding her teachings, the Church has not changed.

I’ve really no interest in defending the Holy Father against criticisms from anyone. He’s not American and is a representative of Christ – terms like “left” and “right” are meaningless in this context. He hasn’t changed anything doctrinal. I’m not sure what CAF posts you’ve been reading about him but perhaps it’s time to refrain from doing so. People often want to inject into their faith their own thoughts on what is good or evil. Better to die to self. **That **is a noble, truly Catholic goal but an extremely hard one.

All you have to do is check out all the CAF posts about the Synod last fall. People are honestly convinced, secular and Catholic, that Francis is gonna change the Church teaching on divorce and remarriage.

There is already a heap of confusion (“Who am I to judge?”), and if Francis changes Church teaching, it will only fuel the fire of the Protestant churches. (“See, the Catholic Church isn’t the original after all!”)

The big lovers and supporters of Francis are the liberals who want to see Church teaching changed. No doubt about it. Catholic liberals demonize Benedict.

I’m concerned I’ll be joining a confused church.

gracepoole:

I really can’t guess what you’re looking for. A church that agrees with you or a church that requires you to bend your will to it? A church that’s all about truth or a church that’s fun? A church that has ceaselessly commemorated Christ’s sacrifice or a church that wants its attendees to feel good all the time? These really are genuine either/or questions.

PJM made a great point that it’s not all about what feels good. I agree.

But I just visited another Protestant church in LA (this one is more mainline). Whoever said mainline churches are declining is lying. They are thriving. Protestant churches are thriving because they know that these questions aren’t either-or questions.

I feel like I would be entering a Church that is in shambles, whereas the Protestants are thriving and doing much more to put Christ’s teachings into practice all around the world. This, despite them not having the doctrinal fullness of the truth.

Gracepoole, do you honestly believe that taking the Sacraments, with no other interaction with the community of believers, will lead you to a fulfilling spiritual life?

You are unrealistic if you say yes to this question. The twelve disciples were like brothers.

Maybe I’ll go parish hopping…

 

[Rau]

…The other day, another woman rejected me, and my desire to turn to Catholicism may be a small part of it (she doesn’t care for organized religion and says the church is full of hypocrites, which isn’t false).

Perhaps the larger part of why she “rejected” you ought to be examined?

I am very concerned that conversion will severely reduce my dating pool, and if rejections continue, I may have to turn away from the faith to find my wife.

Is this a US thing - the Christian denomination is ascertained at an early state in a relationship and on that basis, the other party is rejected? Though I note you seem to have no such attitude with respect to the women with which you socialise.

This is why I have my concerns about the lack of community in a Catholic parish

. Not clear how that’s relevant.

And I’ve checked out Catholic Match. There are quite a few attractive women, but very few within 50 miles of me…

Consider moving.

All you have to do is check out all the CAF posts about the Synod last fall. People are honestly convinced, secular and Catholic, that Francis is gonna change the Church teaching on divorce and remarriage. There is already a heap of confusion (“Who am I to judge?”), and if Francis changes Church teaching, it will only fuel the fire of the Protestant churches. (“See, the Catholic Church isn’t the original after all!”)

But, you know teaching isn’t going to change. Disciplines, yes.

I’m concerned I’ll be joining a confused church.

You know how some of the Protestant churches handle confusion - the choose to accept all opinions. The Lutheran ELCA admit they are not able to reach an opinion on the morality of same sex sexual relationships!

 

[Xantippe]

I haven’t read your whole thread yet, so apologies for any repetition, but here are some initial thoughts (I’m a convert and RCIA grad myself–class of '98):

1. You don’t need to ride the RCIA conveyor belt through to joining the Church this Easter. Feel free to hop off and get on again in the fall as you work through stuff.
2. You can learn everything you need to know about “hot button” issues with a little home study. Your program probably should do more, but it honestly doesn’t need to be contraception-abortion-marriage all the time.
3. All that other “stuff” is important–it’s part of the culture of the family you are looking to join. (By the way, I love “The Bad Catholic’s Guide” books–they’re very, very funny.) Day to day, all of that stuff will be very important. You don’t need to know every single fact or devotion (nobody can), but the more you know, the more comfortable and at home you’ll be.
4. You aren’t going to miss out on all of the goodness of your Protestant past, because you are bringing a lot of what is good with you (and hopefully leaving the bad far, far behind).
5. You’ve mentioned before that there was a certain amount of superficiality in some of your old church relationships. I would suggest that you’ll find out who was actually your friend (rather than just your church buddy) when you convert.
6. There are lots of good-looking Catholic women, but you’re correct that it may be harder to find an opportunity to meet them. But, you haven’t found it all peaches and cream in the Evangelical world, either, in that respect.
7. I think you’re correct on the prevalence of contraception among the Catholic faithful, but the average Catholic is not having lots of abortions or lots of divorces. In fact, quite the contrary–the Catholic divorce rate in the US is one of the lowest in the US.
8. Politics is a very small part of a well-lived life.
9. Regarding liturgy–I would encourage you to not convert until you have warmer feelings about the stuff that you now think of as worthless externals.
10. “In Protestantism, holy and manmade traditions are only upheld if they are useful to bringing people to Christ in today’s world. If they are obsolete, then they should be removed or updated. Isn’t that a better approach?”

a. I don’t know that that’s true. My parents’ Assemblies of God church has introduced an Advent wreath (!) and my United Methodist sacred music professor/liturgy geek friend tells me that Ash Wednesday services are getting to be a big deal. In our area, there’s a type of Baptist that gets called “Bapto-Catholic” because they are so keen on liturgy and historical Christianity. Also, conversations with my Presbyterian 5-point Calvinist friends suggests that they aren’t very keen on the newest, shiniest thing–they looooove their hymnals. I think you’re thinking of a slice of Evangelical Christianity, as opposed to US Protestantism as a whole.

b. How can we be so sure what is or isn’t important when looking at traditions? It’s like looking at a living organism and trying to figure out which organs are unnecessary–a mistake might well be fatal.

1. “Because Reformation theology holds that man has a sinful nature, and by nature desires to flee from what is holy, Reformed Christians are better able to understand the mass apostasy of today’s world and know what to do to preach to it.”

I haven’t read that article, but I haven’t noticed that Presbyterians are doing better than Catholics with regard to engaging the culture.

Speaking of sinful nature and mass apostasy, do google “Orthodox Grumpy Cat.” You’ll have a better day!

More later.

 

[pianistclare]

Is it possible to be saved as a Protestant?

What encouragement can you give me to continue onward? What can I get in Catholicism that I cannot get elsewhere?

the real Presence of Christ Himself in the Eucharist.
For that alone, you should convert.

The Catholic church teaches that you do no have to be Catholic to go to heaven.
But when Catholic, you are held to a high standard. just the sort of standards that you appear to be seeking. No other Church has the Sacraments that give us grace and the tools to attain heaven.

This world is fleeting. If you are seeking perfection in this world, you should pattern your life after some of the Saints.

 

[pianistclare]

If you’re using the churches as a dating service, no wonder you’re disillusioned.
Hint: Your parish is not in the business of finding you a wife.

 

[Colorad007]

There are plenty of parishes with attractive young women and young adult groups. They are usually the most liturgically and doctrinally serious parishes, too, so you can knock out two birds with one stone.