Explain the justice of hell.

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That’s pretty much how I would see God.

Is he? Can it be considered just to desire perfection from what is imperfect? If we were capable of being perfect, would Christ ever had needed to come?

What is the point of the story of the flood? What was the authors intention? The key to discerning the authors intention is in the structure of the text. It’s constructed in a very specific way that was common in Ancient Near East writings. There’s a name for it which eludes me at the moment. It’s set out in a particular pattern - this happened, that happened until it comes to the authors point of the whole story. Then it works backwards - kind of like repeating everything that has been said in the build up to the point of the story but in reverse. I’m explaining this very badly, but you can see the construction in the text. The point of the story is, ‘God remembered Noah.’ Yes, the story does mention divine retribution - a common belief in the Ancient Near East. If it was divine retribution, drowning all the animals who had done nothing to deserve it doesn’t make sense. However, neither does drowning all the people if it was divine retribution if they were later to be forgiven and enter heaven. Now some would say none of those drowned at the flood would enter heaven. However, we don’t know that. So why drown people if they are later going to be saved and if not, could God not just have painlessly put them out of existence? Strange story indeed.

The tale is possible because there is evidence of flooding. It may have been a consequence of ice caps melting at the end of the Ice Age, it may have been a localized flood. Ancient civilizations - Babylonians, Eskimos to mention but a view - have myth narratives or legends of a flood. My take on it is the flood was something that was going to happen anyway, and Noah and his family were saved because God had communicated to Noah how to survive the flood. That means of survival was open to all because the account tells us how Noah preached about the impending flood. Most didn’t believe him and chose not to heed his warning. The point of the story is Noah believed in God, was saved because he followed what God said, and God remembered him. That’s the significance of the story. Not how many animals Noah took into the Ark or what it looked like.
Is it not a fair point that societies viewed God in this light for much of history? If one is to place a particular esteem in an ancient text and to ascribe it believability because it comes from those who were necessarily closer to the origins of mankind than are we, how is it possible to at the same time delve therein and discard most of its main narratives due to a view that they were born out of ignorance?

More specifically, if the ancients:
  1. Misunderstood God’s inner whisperings
  2. Confused the order of importance with God’s commandments (there are over 600)
  3. Were in error about God’s basic temperament
  4. Routinely made up entire events and blended history with legend
How is it that they are to be ascribed credibility in the rest? If the claim of God’s existence is sandwiched among admitted absurdities, why is even this revelation not considered one more exaggerated or erroneous story? Why might one claim their works to be God-inspired while at the same time seemingly knowing that they are not to be believed?
 
Apologies for commitments having so delayed my response to you!
Is this to mean you have an actual life outside of these forums? Preposterous! 😉
After Jesus’ death AND RESURRECTION, His apostles/disciples stood quite convinced–to the extent that untold numbers of them willingly martyred themselves for faith in Him. Their powerful, passionate witness has, throughout the ages, fostered belief in those not privy to their firsthand “proof.”
But did not the disciples hide themselves away after the crucifixion? Is it not true that they only rallied themselves to such preaching after both witnessing Christ resurrected and having their foreheads singed by the Holy Spirit?

Had neither of these events transpired was it evident that any among them had sufficient faith to begin such pursuits unaided?
I don’t know, because Jesus said, “Seek and you shall find.” Was the prayer offered with a hopeful (rather than challenging) heart? Was it offered in a spirit of sincerely desiring friendship (rather than bargaining)? Was it offered so earnestly that quantities of time were devoted to quietly “listening” for an answer?
It is possible my prayers were more expectant than hopeful, but no less faith-filled. It is not true that a friendship was desired: I came in peace and submission. Time was available to receive instructions, but none were forthcoming.

It eventually came into my mind that perhaps God merely did not require my services since he was apparently screening my calls. Later it entered my mind that he was apparently missing in action.
I can only speak for the Catholic Church, but it is not about the money. No one keeps tabs on who gives what except for tax-deductibility documentation (and then only if you choose not to contribute anonymously). One can be an active member of a parish his entire life without having given a dime (but it would be highly unlikely that his heart would remain unmoved to do so). And while we are encouraged to engage in sacrificial giving (“tithing”), the church begs only 6% of the stereotypical 10% tithe (5% to support one’s parish and 1% to support the ministries of the diocese in which the parish resides); we are encouraged to give the remaining 4% to charities of our choosing. Truly, the Catholic Church isn’t after your 10%, only your salvation!
Ah, this is an interesting means of encouraging one to join the Catholic Church: from a point of view of cost savings! 😉
FAITH is a virtue, not lack of skepticism–and the two cannot be the same. One who fully understands something is not skeptical of it–and full understanding leaves no room for faith! Perhaps Almighty God, creator of heaven and earth and everything in between, wishes for us to be humble enough to allow for the possibility of an intelligence greater than our own, to admit that the particulars of His being and His ways might be beyond our grasp.
It is possible. Indeed, this was my original consideration in the matter. But then it was that I came to reflect upon the life of cattle.

Cattle seemingly trust their provider and lend no thought to the next stage of their journey. It is only after they have climbed the ramp and made to stare into their ultimate destiny that they realize that their master’s provision for them was not born out of love or kind concern, but a single, utilitarian purpose.

It was a short journey from that realization to the question: “Why might God wish for us to behave akin to cattle?”

If he wished for a real and fulfilling relationship would he not expect potentially more than docile obedience? Would not obedience without question strike him as decidedly dull and routine? Are we not considering God to be the creative genius capable of so much thought and design? If so, why might he be satisfied to surround himself with the non-inquisitive? Would he not have potentially more interest in creating skeptics so that he might later astound them with the truths of which they were merely touching the surface?

If so, why might his own words explicitly state that doubt would be rewarded with hellish torment? Why so serious a punishment for something which could be nothing but harmless to his almighty power?

Seeking the answer to this question has led me to the present consideration: either God exists and decidedly dislikes individuals of my temperament (therefore requiring a complete overhaul of my character) or he does not. Neither option strikes this one as particularly palatable at present.
Whaddaya think?
I think I am pleased you took the time to return.
 
There are only 2 choices. Heaven or hell. Both are for eternity.
Should one choose the Christian Heaven, the Islamic Heaven, the Sikh Heaven, the Hindu Heaven, the Zoroaster Heaven, or any of the other Heavens associated with some of the other 1000 plus deities imagined by mankind?
Comparing Jesus and Mohammed is for another thread.
I am not certain such a thing will be allowed without the thread being terminated without warning, as has been my previous experience with other such topics.
Viewing the events

Obviously It wasn’t Ishmael’s fault that Abraham had him though Hagar the slave and not through Sara his wife. Islam traces their line of descendants from Abraham through Ishmael. However, there is no covenant in that direction. There is a blessing though for Ishmael asked by Abraham, and it was given.

Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

Here’s what’s important though. God’s covenant is through the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Sara, Abraham’s wife… … not through Ishmael and his line

  1. *]Exodus 2:24
    God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob.

  1. *]Leviticus 26:42
    I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.
    *]2 Kings 13:23
    But the LORD was gracious to them and had compassion and showed concern for them because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To this day he has been unwilling to destroy them or banish them from his presence.
    This lineage won’t be undone. This line is the direction one is to follow to it’s fulfillment …Jesus

    Does this not suggest that God is content to watch the conflict among his children unfold as predicted? Is this not suggestive of one who is largely disinterested in the means so long as the intended outcome is still achieved?
 
Is it not a fair point that societies viewed God in this light for much of history?
Not to my knowledge. Relatively speaking, the OT covers short, historical time span relatively speaking.
If one is to place a particular esteem in an ancient text and to ascribe it believability because it comes from those who were necessarily closer to the origins of mankind than are we, how is it possible to at the same time delve therein and discard most of its main narratives due to a view that they were born out of ignorance?
I couldn’t comment on that line of reasoning. Christians believe God revealed Himself to the authors of the bible, and that Revelation inspired them to write about it. I don’t know anything about believing them because they were closer to the origins of mankind.
More specifically, if the ancients:
  1. Misunderstood God’s inner whisperings
  2. Confused the order of importance with God’s commandments (there are over 600)
  3. Were in error about God’s basic temperament
  4. Routinely made up entire events and blended history with legend
How is it that they are to be ascribed credibility in the rest? If the claim of God’s existence is sandwiched among admitted absurdities, why is even this revelation not considered one more exaggerated or erroneous story? Why might one claim their works to be God-inspired while at the same time seemingly knowing that they are not to be believed?
Did I actually say all that? I don’t believe I did. If you have drawn this conclusion from what I said, it illustrates perfectly what we have been talking about. Either I had the intention to mislead you, I don’t know what I’m talking about, you don’t understand what I’m talking about, you are intentionally distorting what I said, or what you have posted are your own thoughts and not based on an interpretation of anything I said and I have misunderstood. Phew! I’m out of breath after all that! :coolinoff:

I won’t post a long response to this question, as it has already been addressed, and we’ll end up going round in circles repeating the same things over and over. However, as you know I love to recount stories a final note.

My son is playing about on his laptop just beside me. He just looked up his name on the internet to see what it would say. Do you know what he found? The exact words he saw on the screen, and I saw too, were - ******* (My son’s christian name and surname) doesn’t exist. Apparently, neither does my younger son, and in fact neither do I - not the first time a computer has asserted I do not exist. As minkymurph is not my name, (am I lying by using that name? :hmmm:) it could be argued the person you have encountered on the internet does not in fact exist. Therefore, you are free to believe I am not a real person. By the same token, I am free to believe you don’t exist. 😃

In addition, as we know nothing about each other outside what we have written, we are free to jump to all sorts of conclusions in relation to one another’s character.

:irish3: ☘️ :irish3:
 
Should one choose the Christian Heaven, the Islamic Heaven, the Sikh Heaven, the Hindu Heaven, the Zoroaster Heaven, or any of the other Heavens associated with some of the other 1000 plus deities imagined by mankind?
There is only one heaven, and one savior. Salvation is through Jesus alone. If one is saved, who is not in good standing in the Catholic Church, that’s* if* they are saved, Jesus is the only one who saves them. Not Mohammed, not anyone else, or any other system.
J:
I am not certain such a thing will be allowed without the thread being terminated without warning, as has been my previous experience with other such topics.
Truth is not squishy. It’s absolute. There’s not a bunch of opinions all being equal. Hell exists. As does heaven. And what qualities are needed for both. No one ends up in either accidentally. Everyone will be judged by the life they’ve led and how they believed
J:
Does this not suggest that God is content to watch the conflict among his children unfold as predicted? Is this not suggestive of one who is largely disinterested in the means so long as the intended outcome is still achieved?
He didn’t create the conflict. Given what He did for us while we were up to our collective eyeballs in sin, to bring about the possibility of peace and salvation, His actions, are proof beyond all doubt He loves His Children beyond compare. He taught us personally how to live and what He wants of us. And He wants our reciprocal love in return. He’s absolutely and perfectly just. That’s why there is heaven and hell.
 
But did not the disciples hide themselves away after the crucifixion? Is it not true that they only rallied themselves to such preaching after both witnessing Christ resurrected and having their foreheads singed by the Holy Spirit? Had neither of these events transpired was it evident that any among them had sufficient faith to begin such pursuits unaided?
There was nothing TO preach until Jesus was resurrected, until He conquered death for us–THAT is the Good News. One cannot share with others that which one does not yet know. (And let me anticipate your reply of “How can we know for ourselves unless we ourselves have seen the proof?” by saying that often we are convinced by the respected testimony of others–especially those who have willingly died for what was proven to them.)
It is possible my prayers were more expectant than hopeful, but no less faith-filled. It is not true that a friendship was desired: I came in peace and submission. Time was available to receive instructions, but none were forthcoming.
Well, God rewards hopeful persistence…
It eventually came into my mind that perhaps God merely did not require my services since he was apparently screening my calls. Later it entered my mind that he was apparently missing in action.
God does not REQUIRE anything from us; He has no needs. He does, however, DESIRE our “services” (as in serving one another, as that is love, and He is love).
Ah, this is an interesting means of encouraging one to join the Catholic Church: from a point of view of cost savings!
Well, you know…whatever it takes! 🙂 In fairness though, you raised the money issue; I was just putting it in perspective!
It is possible. Indeed, this was my original consideration in the matter. But then it was that I came to reflect upon the life of cattle.
Cattle seemingly trust their provider and lend no thought to the next stage of their journey. It is only after they have climbed the ramp and made to stare into their ultimate destiny that they realize that their master’s provision for them was not born out of love or kind concern, but a single, utilitarian purpose.
It was a short journey from that realization to the question: “Why might God wish for us to behave akin to cattle?”
Hmmm… Really? This was your best analogy (or were you just very tired when you posted it)? It is so “apples and oranges” as to be appear to be a non sequitor. I think I’ll just move along…
If he wished for a real and fulfilling relationship would he not expect potentially more than docile obedience? Would not obedience without question strike him as decidedly dull and routine? Are we not considering God to be the creative genius capable of so much thought and design? If so, why might he be satisfied to surround himself with the non-inquisitive? Would he not have potentially more interest in creating skeptics so that he might later astound them with the truths of which they were merely touching the surface?
I know it is challenging to think of God outside of our human experience and human traits, but, again, God does not NEED interesting cocktail party conversation or intellectual stimulation. He is “interested” in our acceptance of his amazing offer to eternally share in his divine life and love.
If so, why might his own words explicitly state that doubt would be rewarded with hellish torment? Why so serious a punishment for something which could be nothing but harmless to his almighty power?
You say “punishment,” Catholics say “natural consequence.” But this already has been discussed (nearly ad nauseum) (and apparently to no effect!).
Seeking the answer to this question has led me to the present consideration: either God exists and decidedly dislikes individuals of my temperament (therefore requiring a complete overhaul of my character) or he does not. Neither option strikes this one as particularly palatable at present.
This is your best observation yet (with one nuanced change: God LOVES all individuals but dislikes some things about us and can help us change).
I think I am pleased you took the time to return.
Me too! Have a good day.
 
There is only one heaven, and one savior. Salvation is through Jesus alone. If one is saved, who is not in good standing in the Catholic Church, that’s* if* they are saved, Jesus is the only one who saves them. Not Mohammed, not anyone else, or any other system.
**Upon what factual basis do you make so sweeping and all encompassing a statement? Do you have any objective or quantified facts to buttress this? If so, I’d sure as heck like to hear them!! **
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steve_b:
There is only one heaven, and one savior. Salvation is through Jesus alone. If one is saved, who is not in good standing in the Catholic Church, that’s* if* they are saved, Jesus is the only one who saves them. Not Mohammed, not anyone else, or any other system.
S:
**Upon what factual basis do you make so sweeping and all encompassing a statement? Do you have any objective or quantified facts to buttress this? If so, I’d sure as heck like to hear them!! **
You say you’re searching? Where have you been looking so far? You’re not familiar with what Jesus taught?
S:
What is “truth”? What you deem absolute can certainly be argues as being opinion. Again, upon what factual basis do you make such significant claims? If something is “absolute” should it logically follow that the assertion is undeniable and universally accepted?
Quoting Pontius Pilate isn’t a good way to start. How long have you been searching? What drew you to a Catholic website?
 
Not to my knowledge. Relatively speaking, the OT covers short, historical time span relatively speaking.
Were not all societies of that epoch equally convinced of the need to appease their gods? It is this general consideration to which the original question referred.
I couldn’t comment on that line of reasoning. Christians believe God revealed Himself to the authors of the bible, and that Revelation inspired them to write about it. I don’t know anything about believing them because they were closer to the origins of mankind.
Is it not possible that God might reveal himself to any number of individuals today, many of whom might take it upon themselves to write such inspiration in a book or other work? Why then is it that the Church does not pursue these same narratives with the same certainty with which they ascribe God’s involvement in the Bible? Is it not possibly because the Bible is more ancient and therefore closer to mankind’s origins? Is not most ancient lore esteemed for this reason?
Did I actually say all that? I don’t believe I did. If you have drawn this conclusion from what I said, it illustrates perfectly what we have been talking about. Either I had the intention to mislead you, I don’t know what I’m talking about, you don’t understand what I’m talking about, you are intentionally distorting what I said, or what you have posted are your own thoughts and not based on an interpretation of anything I said and I have misunderstood. Phew! I’m out of breath after all that! :coolinoff:
Was not your position that many of the stories in the Bible were not real? In the case of the “lying spirits” purportedly sent by God to confuse Ahab, was not your conclusion that the Old Testament author was merely using some invention in describing what he considered to be the likely cause of the confusion rather than that God actually sent lying spirits?

If an Old Testament prophet might misunderstand God’s meaning; a story such as Job be accepted to be allegorical; God’s personality made out to be that of a warlord when he is supposedly humble and loving; and various commandments within the Old Testament be stressed as being worthy of death (such as homosexuality) only to later be ignored; would one be wrong in asking:

If the ancients:
  1. Misunderstood God’s inner whisperings [via mis-recorded prophecies]
  2. Confused the order of importance with God’s commandments (there are over 600) [via commandments that were once stressed to be worthy of death, but are no longer observed]
  3. Were in error about God’s basic temperament [via consistently painting God earlier as jealous and war-like and later as loving and peaceful]
  4. Routinely made up entire events and blended history with legend [via such stories as Job, Noah, Jonah, Genesis, etc.]
How is it that they are to be ascribed credibility in the rest? If the claim of God’s existence is sandwiched among admitted absurdities, why is even this revelation not considered one more exaggerated or erroneous story? Why might one claim their works to be God-inspired while at the same time seemingly knowing that they are not to be believed?

May one more small example be permitted to help illustrate the above?

Consider the tale of Ishmael, half-brother of Isaac. In most biblical accounts, Ishmael is described as being a “wild a.s.s. of a man, his hand shall be against every man and every man will be against him.” This is certainly one possible translation, but would it be surprising to also understand that an equally valid translation of the same passage could read: “he will be a fruitful man: his hand shall be with every one and every man’s had shall be with him.”

These two disparate renderings are possible due to the fact that the original Hebrew text was recorded without vowels. As such, a mere insertion of different vowels will yield startlingly different concepts. The first suggests that God would be displeased with Ishmael and is disparaging to his descendants (namely the Arabs), while the second suggests a far more positive esteem and outlook.

Given the understandable controversy over such a passage (and many others like it), how is it possible to afford the Bible enough credibility to place one’s soul on the line in defense of it?
I won’t post a long response to this question, as it has already been addressed, and we’ll end up going round in circles repeating the same things over and over. However, as you know I love to recount stories a final note.
My son is playing about on his laptop just beside me. He just looked up his name on the internet to see what it would say. Do you know what he found? The exact words he saw on the screen, and I saw too, were - ******* (My son’s christian name and surname) doesn’t exist. Apparently, neither does my younger son, and in fact neither do I - not the first time a computer has asserted I do not exist. As minkymurph is not my name, (am I lying by using that name? :hmmm:) it could be argued the person you have encountered on the internet does not in fact exist. Therefore, you are free to believe I am not a real person. By the same token, I am free to believe you don’t exist. 😃
In addition, as we know nothing about each other outside what we have written, we are free to jump to all sorts of conclusions in relation to one another’s character.
:irish3: ☘️ :irish3:
Was not the point of God’s Bible to allow mankind to become better acquainted with his reality? Is that same point the purpose of these forums?
 
Were not all societies of that epoch equally convinced of the need to appease their gods? It is this general consideration to which the original question referred.
Yes, they were which was my point. It would be unrealistic to conclude the image of God, which is a different thing to understanding of God, held by the Israelites was not to and extent influenced by nations of people around them.
Is it not possible that God might reveal himself to any number of individuals today, many of whom might take it upon themselves to write such inspiration in a book or other work?
It’s not only possible it happens. Many write books on theology, prayers or engage in acts because they are inspired. However, inspiration and Revelation are not the same. Aquinas wrote how humans can come to a knowledge of God purely by their own reasoning. However, he reasoned human knowledge of God has limitations. Gaining insight into what Aquinas termed, ‘higher truths’ - for example the Trinity - cannot be understood purely by human reasoning alone, but can only be known through Divine Revelation - in other words, revealed by God Himself - and the only way we can develop any understanding of these Divine truths are through engagement with the Holy Spirit, as it is the Holy Spirit that gives understanding. Catholics believe the bible contains Divinely Revealed truths - truths revealed by God himself and these truths would not have been known if God had not revealed them. The bible is both Revelation and inspiration. Revelation by God which inspired authors to write about this Revelation.
Why then is it that the Church does not pursue these same narratives with the same certainty with which they ascribe God’s involvement in the Bible?
I don’t really understand this.
Is it not possibly because the Bible is more ancient and therefore closer to mankind’s origins? Is not most ancient lore esteemed for this reason?
Not to my knowledge. Maybe you’ve read something or heard something I haven’t. There are writings that are much older than the bible which would be closer to the origins of human life. The writings of OT were recognized as inspired prior to the birth of the Church.
The Apostles, as Jews, would have believed they were inspired, and they were always recognized as inspired. The Church didn’t decide they were inspired at a later time. The books of the NT were also always considered to be inspired. Two reasons they were placed in the Canon of Scripture, (not the only reasons) is because they were always believed to be inspired, and were written either by those who were closest to the Apostles, - their disciples who would have heard the message of the Gospel from the Apostles, eg. Mark, - or the Apostles themselves, who were closest to Christ and heard the Gospel directly from him, eg: Matthew .
Was not your position that many of the stories in the Bible were not real?
No it wasn’t. Shows how easy it is to attribute a meaning to written words the author did not intend. 😃

What I was eluding to is certain details may have an allegorical meaning, and may exaggerated or colorfully elaborated for effect, as any good story teller would do, and the finer details of the story are not intended to be taken literally. When reading scripture it is important to ascertain the literary form of the particular passage we are reading. For example, did Jesus intend his parables to be taken literally? I would say he didn’t as it wasn’t the purpose of teaching in parables. I’m sure you’ve heard of Aesop’s fables. In the story of the tortoise and the hare, does Aesop want the audience to believe a tortoise can run faster than a hare? Of course not. The moral of that story is, ‘slow and steady wins the race.’

I would be of the opinion the book of Jonah is a literary work. There are many ‘morals of story’ in Jonah, and this is the purpose of telling the story, and these morals are what the author wants the audience to understand -not, ‘it scientifically possible for a man to survive in the stomach of a big fish.’ The story of Jonah may be based on a real person and actual events, or they may not. It’s not important to the author or the audience of the time, any more than it was important to author and audience if Androcles was a real person who really pulled a thorn out of lions paw. However, my position is also there is no such thing as a true story. Jack and the Beanstalk is reputed to be the only true story in existence as it is based on pure imagination. All other stories are based on real life. To illustrate, while Dickens works and characters are fictional, they are based on the realities of the world he lived in, and give us great insight into what the world of Dickens was like.
 
In the case of the “lying spirits” purportedly sent by God to confuse Ahab, was not your conclusion that the Old Testament author was merely using some invention in describing what he considered to be the likely cause of the confusion rather than that God actually sent lying spirits?
No, that was not my conclusion. My conclusion is one should not base one’s opinions concerning either God’s Revelation or the intention of the authors of scripture on one word translated from ancient Hebrew into modern English. If my words suggested otherwise, please excuse my literary clumsiness. Just as well I’m not writing God’s Revelation. 😃
You seem stuck on this word lying. I am not an expert on ancient Hebrew by any stretch of the imagination, so I have to rely on Google. :rolleyes: Admittedly, not the most reliable source, but here’s what I found -

*The problem is not with the text but with our view of a lie. The Hebrew word for “lied” in Numbers 23:19 is kazav (Strong’s # 3576). By looking at another verse using this same word we will see that this word does not literally mean “lie”. Isaiah 58:11 says; “you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters never fail”. The word “fail” is the same word kazav. *
If an Old Testament prophet might misunderstand God’s meaning; a story such as Job be accepted to be allegorical; God’s personality made out to be that of a warlord when he is supposedly humble and loving; and various commandments within the Old Testament be stressed as being worthy of death (such as homosexuality) only to later be ignored; would one be wrong in asking:

If the ancients:
  1. Misunderstood God’s inner whisperings [via mis-recorded prophecies]
  2. Confused the order of importance with God’s commandments (there are over 600) [via commandments that were once stressed to be worthy of death, but are no longer observed]
  3. Were in error about God’s basic temperament [via consistently painting God earlier as jealous and war-like and later as loving and peaceful]
  4. Routinely made up entire events and blended history with legend [via such stories as Job, Noah, Jonah, Genesis, etc.]
How is it that they are to be ascribed credibility in the rest? If the claim of God’s existence is sandwiched among admitted absurdities, why is even this revelation not considered one more exaggerated or erroneous story? Why might one claim their works to be God-inspired while at the same time seemingly knowing that they are not to be believed?
I think I’ve pretty much addressed this - because they encountered God who revealed Divine truths to them and inspired them to write - not because they were excellent literary skills and they would never get anything wrong.
May one more small example be permitted to help illustrate the above?
Of course. 😃
Consider the tale of Ishmael, half-brother of Isaac. In most biblical accounts, Ishmael is described as being a “wild a.s.s. of a man, his hand shall be against every man and every man will be against him.” This is certainly one possible translation, but would it be surprising to also understand that an equally valid translation of the same passage could read: “he will be a fruitful man: his hand shall be with every one and every man’s had shall be with him.”

These two disparate renderings are possible due to the fact that the original Hebrew text was recorded without vowels. As such, a mere insertion of different vowels will yield startlingly different concepts. The first suggests that God would be displeased with Ishmael and is disparaging to his descendants (namely the Arabs), while the second suggests a far more positive esteem and outlook.

Given the understandable controversy over such a passage (and many others like it), how is it possible to afford the Bible enough credibility to place one’s soul on the line in defense of it?
Excellent points. In this area I would say we’re on the same page. If the actual words of scripture were so important, God would not only have to make sure the author made no mistakes, but also the translator. If God made sure of this, all translations would read the same. Translations of the bible are subject to human fallibility. They are also subject to the translators own particular perceptions and bias. Scripture does have a literal meaning, but as you quite rightly point out, problems with translation require caution concerning a literal reading.
 
There is only one heaven, and one savior. Salvation is through Jesus alone. If one is saved, who is not in good standing in the Catholic Church, that’s* if* they are saved, Jesus is the only one who saves them. Not Mohammed, not anyone else, or any other system.
Would not a Muslim claim differently? What might make such a claim less credible?
Truth is not squishy. It’s absolute. There’s not a bunch of opinions all being equal. Hell exists. As does heaven. And what qualities are needed for both. No one ends up in either accidentally. Everyone will be judged by the life they’ve led and how they believed
Though it is understandable to be judged based on one’s actions, how is it just to judge one based on beliefs? Where might the evil be found in being mistaken?
He didn’t create the conflict. Given what He did for us while we were up to our collective eyeballs in sin, to bring about the possibility of peace and salvation, His actions, are proof beyond all doubt He loves His Children beyond compare. He taught us personally how to live and what He wants of us. And He wants our reciprocal love in return. He’s absolutely and perfectly just. That’s why there is heaven and hell.
Yet, in spite of such efforts, he strangely did nothing to ensure allegedly false religions did not compete with his own. Further, he did not even complete his own conversion of the Jews–most of whom would not convert for fear of offending God The Father. Does it not seem strange that the almighty creator of the universe would fail to have a comprehensive strategy to bring all of his people under one set of laws and beliefs?

Would this not suggest that he either could not do so (failure) or did not care enough to do so (apathy)? Is there an alternate means of viewing this problem? What might have been the loving and caring solution one might underline instead?
 
Given the understandable controversy over such a passage (and many others like it), how is it possible to afford the Bible enough credibility to place one’s soul on the line in defense of it?
I wouldn’t place my soul on the line to defend one particular word or sentence in the bible, or my own understanding of a particular passage of scripture.
Was not the point of God’s Bible to allow mankind to become better acquainted with his reality? Is that same point the purpose of these forums?
In my view yes, the point of the bible is to allow mankind to become better acquainted with his reality. It is also a record of how others encountered God’s reality, and struggled with it. It does contain Divine truths about God, but contains many other things - moral values, songs of praise, poems, history. It is also a book of guidance, Jesus frequently preached concerning right living. I’m not sure about the book of Numbers, I don’t know what we’re supposed to get out of a big list of names.
 
You seem stuck on this word lying. I am not an expert on ancient Hebrew by any stretch of the imagination, so I have to rely on Google. :rolleyes: Admittedly, not the most reliable source, but here’s what I found -

*The problem is not with the text but with our view of a lie. The Hebrew word for “lied” in Numbers 23:19 is kazav (Strong’s # 3576). By looking at another verse using this same word we will see that this word does not literally mean “lie”. Isaiah 58:11 says; “you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters never fail”. The word “fail” is the same word kazav. *
Apologies, I left this bit out in my other post.

The original meaning of kazav is “Vain words spoken to deceive, cause failure or disappoint. What does not function within its intended capacity” (Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible). A spring that does not flow is a “lying” spring because it does not function properly. One who gives vain words is a “liar” and one who causes disappointment in another through his words is also a “liar”.
 
Would not a Muslim claim differently? What might make such a claim less credible?
Always consider the credibility of the source .
J:
Though it is understandable to be judged based on one’s actions, how is it just to judge one based on beliefs? Where might the evil be found in being mistaken?
The whole point of Divine revelation is God teaching His children the truth. and not believe things that aren’t true. If He didn’t give us the truth, then there is no foul in getting things wrong.
J:
Yet, in spite of such efforts, he strangely did nothing to ensure allegedly false religions did not compete with his own. **Further, he did not even complete his own conversion of the Jews–**most of whom would not convert for fear of offending God The Father. Does it not seem strange that the almighty creator of the universe would fail to have a comprehensive strategy to bring all of his people under one set of laws and beliefs?
Let’s face it, people in general, not just the Jews, can be headstrong and ungrateful.

Today’s Mass readings.

Responsorial Psalm, *Psalms 81:6-8, 8-9, 10-11, 14, 17 *
*6 'I freed his shoulder from the burden, his hands were able to lay aside the labourer’s basket. *
*7 You cried out in your distress, so I rescued you. 'Hidden in the storm, I answered you, I tested you at the waters of Meribah.Pause *
*8 Listen, my people, while I give you warning; Israel, if only you would listen to me! *
*9 'You shall have no strange gods, shall worship no alien god. *
*10 I, Yahweh, am your God, who brought you here from Egypt, you have only to open your mouth for me to fill it. *
*11 'My people would not listen to me, Israel would have none of me. *
14 at one stroke I would subdue their enemies, turn my hand against their opponents.

Pretty ungrateful…right? Did God give up doing good for His children? No

Fast forward

Jesus said He came specifically for the lost tribe of Isreal. He gave them 1st shot. How did they do compared to the time of the writing of the Psalms? Anything change? Some converted, most didn’t.

I think the point is, God is always putting His hand out. But we have free will. Free will is what makes us culpable in the end for what we choose to do and believe.
J:
Would this not suggest that he either could not do so (failure) or did not care enough to do so (apathy)? Is there an alternate means of viewing this problem?* What might have been the loving and caring solution one might underline instead*?
Look at the Crucifixion. He loved us immensley, beyond compare…

http://us.cdn3.123rf.com/168nwm/robodread/robodread1109/robodread110900970/10590445-crucifixion.jpg
 
There was nothing TO preach until Jesus was resurrected, until He conquered death for us–THAT is the Good News. One cannot share with others that which one does not yet know. (And let me anticipate your reply of “How can we know for ourselves unless we ourselves have seen the proof?” by saying that often we are convinced by the respected testimony of others–especially those who have willingly died for what was proven to them.)
Did not the disciples remain sequestered even after Jesus’ departure? Was it not finally necessary to light a fire on their heads in order to finally ensure their cooperation?
Well, God rewards hopeful persistence…
While this one perhaps disparages ignored silence. Since God requires nothing would it be at all surprising to consider that he may choose to ignore some and communicate with others? Alternately, if such inconsistent communication skills might be considered in character with a perfect and loving being of true consistency, how differently might one expect an imperfect being to react?
God does not REQUIRE anything from us; He has no needs. He does, however, DESIRE our “services” (as in serving one another, as that is love, and He is love).
Why might such a being have desires? Additionally, assuming it requires nothing, why is it so insistent on obedience? Why is it so zealous that one place it above all other things in his/her life?
Well, you know…whatever it takes! 🙂 In fairness though, you raised the money issue; I was just putting it in perspective!
Hmmm… Really? This was your best analogy (or were you just very tired when you posted it)? It is so “apples and oranges” as to be appear to be a non sequitor. I think I’ll just move along…
Truly? Is this analogy so different from Christ’s own teaching that his followers should be akin to sheep? Why might Jesus have been so disparaging towards goats (creatures with independent minds) and so fond of sheep (creatures unable to think for themselves)?

Analogies asides, the core of the question is this: given the Christian is honing a skill-set in order to appropriately enter Heaven, what is the purpose of this skill-set? Consider: why might an infinite being of infinite creative genius be content merely to while away eternity with a select band of individuals garnished from a planet that will eventually pass into oblivion–from a veritable pin-prick in time? Would not, logically, such a being have much more in store for those he has so gathered?

What might one expect one’s future tasks to be based upon the skill-sets honed during this life-time?
I know it is challenging to think of God outside of our human experience and human traits, but, again, God does not NEED interesting cocktail party conversation or intellectual stimulation. He is “interested” in our acceptance of his amazing offer to eternally share in his divine life and love.
Perhaps, but such an existence would still strike this one as exceedingly dull. Initially it may certainly appear fantastic, but after 18 billion years it must certainly wear thin.

It also does not strike this one as logical: that a God habituated to infinities might choose anything finite as a reward.
You say “punishment,” Catholics say “natural consequence.” But this already has been discussed (nearly ad nauseum) (and apparently to no effect!).
Is it perhaps because none have yet explained precisely how Jesus’ unambiguous warnings of punishment at his behest were transformed into the self-incriminating natural consequence of Catholic lore? How did an active judgement become a passive result?
This is your best observation yet (with one nuanced change: God LOVES all individuals but dislikes some things about us and can help us change).
How might it be said that God may love one if their existing character and temperament are not to his liking? What portion of the individual is logically left for God to love?

If one should transform these characteristics, is one the same individual as he was before?

Consider an Alzheimer’s patient: are they the same individual with the disease as they were without? Might one conceive of a scenario in which one might have come to love the latter, but not the former?
 
Yes, they were which was my point. It would be unrealistic to conclude the image of God, which is a different thing to understanding of God, held by the Israelites was not to and extent influenced by nations of people around them.
But was not the Old Testament written during such a time? How credible is it then for determining an understanding of God if it projects so disparate an image? If not particularly useful for determining this understanding, for what purpose is it included in a modern Bible (where presumably the understanding of God has progressed beyond these ancient origins)?
It’s not only possible it happens. Many write books on theology, prayers or engage in acts because they are inspired. However, inspiration and Revelation are not the same. Aquinas wrote how humans can come to a knowledge of God purely by their own reasoning. However, he reasoned human knowledge of God has limitations. Gaining insight into what Aquinas termed, ‘higher truths’ - for example the Trinity - cannot be understood purely by human reasoning alone, but can only be known through Divine Revelation - in other words, revealed by God Himself - and the only way we can develop any understanding of these Divine truths are through engagement with the Holy Spirit, as it is the Holy Spirit that gives understanding. Catholics believe the bible contains Divinely Revealed truths - truths revealed by God himself and these truths would not have been known if God had not revealed them. The bible is both Revelation and inspiration. Revelation by God which inspired authors to write about this Revelation.
The Bible has no appendices to suggest that God has continued to inspire mankind with an ever clearer rendering of his nature. The Church does not read from such texts at Mass and so seemingly does not allot them the same level of credibility as might be given a reading from Isaiah, for example.

Why might one conclude this to be the case if not because of the latter’s closer proximity to some specific origins? Would not Aquinas’, being more modern, possibly suggest that they were more developed and therefore more accurate than those of any of the Old Testament authors? Why would not the Church pursue an agenda of accuracy over seeming nostalgia?
Not to my knowledge. Maybe you’ve read something or heard something I haven’t. There are writings that are much older than the bible which would be closer to the origins of human life. The writings of OT were recognized as inspired prior to the birth of the Church.
The Apostles, as Jews, would have believed they were inspired, and they were always recognized as inspired. The Church didn’t decide they were inspired at a later time. The books of the NT were also always considered to be inspired. Two reasons they were placed in the Canon of Scripture, (not the only reasons) is because they were always believed to be inspired, and were written either by those who were closest to the Apostles, - their disciples who would have heard the message of the Gospel from the Apostles, eg. Mark, - or the Apostles themselves, who were closest to Christ and heard the Gospel directly from him, eg: Matthew .
Yet even these worthies apparently failed to encapsulate as refined a message as might be found in the writings of later doctors of the Church. Why then is their script more noteworthy than that of later authors?

If this is due to proximity to the source, is this not then suggestive that their message must be assessed to be more accurate than later formulations from authors further removed? If so, why would one be so prepared to discard the positions put forward by their coverage of certain subjects in favor of more modern ones espoused by current authors?

To be specific, why might one discard St. Luke’s clear imagery of Jesus as judge in favor of a later author’s assessment that Jesus does not judge, but merely observes the natural self-judgment of the individual? The former places Jesus in an active role (one in which he bears a responsibility for the outcome), whereas the latter allows him a passive role (one in which he merely observes what is necessary–and beyond his apparent control).
 
No it wasn’t. Shows how easy it is to attribute a meaning to written words the author did not intend. 😃

What I was eluding to is certain details may have an allegorical meaning, and may exaggerated or colorfully elaborated for effect, as any good story teller would do, and the finer details of the story are not intended to be taken literally. When reading scripture it is important to ascertain the literary form of the particular passage we are reading. For example, did Jesus intend his parables to be taken literally? I would say he didn’t as it wasn’t the purpose of teaching in parables. I’m sure you’ve heard of Aesop’s fables. In the story of the tortoise and the hare, does Aesop want the audience to believe a tortoise can run faster than a hare? Of course not. The moral of that story is, ‘slow and steady wins the race.’

I would be of the opinion the book of Jonah is a literary work. There are many ‘morals of story’ in Jonah, and this is the purpose of telling the story, and these morals are what the author wants the audience to understand -not, ‘it scientifically possible for a man to survive in the stomach of a big fish.’ The story of Jonah may be based on a real person and actual events, or they may not. It’s not important to the author or the audience of the time, any more than it was important to author and audience if Androcles was a real person who really pulled a thorn out of lions paw. However, my position is also there is no such thing as a true story. Jack and the Beanstalk is reputed to be the only true story in existence as it is based on pure imagination. All other stories are based on real life. To illustrate, while Dickens works and characters are fictional, they are based on the realities of the world he lived in, and give us great insight into what the world of Dickens was like.
Thank you for the clarification, but kindly understand that the point being examined was not the difference between the terms allegory and non-real. In the humble expectations of this author, both may be seen as equivalent for the purposes of this inquiry.

The point might be more clearly illustrated in this manner: whereas throughout history none have ever considered the parables of Jesus to be literally true events, many, many throughout history have considered those portions of the Bible labelled allegorical by some today to have been true tales. Indeed, many still regard them as such today–and not all of these are restricted to the protestant ranks.

So it is that this one inquires: if what today appears allegorical had a previous history of being understood literally, what other concepts within the same works might be understood today as literal, but may be understood by subsequent generations as allegorical? What device within the texts makes any clear distinction between the two?

Happy St. Patrick’s Day! :irish2:
 
But was not the Old Testament written during such a time?
Yes, it was.
How credible is it then for determining an understanding of God if it projects so disparate an image? If not particularly useful for determining this understanding, for what purpose is it included in a modern Bible (where presumably the understanding of God has progressed beyond these ancient origins)?
That depends very much on why one thinks the purpose the books of the OT were intended to serve. It’s credible for determining human understanding of God, and the development of human understanding of Revelation.
The Bible has no appendices to suggest that God has continued to inspire mankind with an ever clearer rendering of his nature.
Should it?
The Church does not read from such texts at Mass and so seemingly does not allot them the same level of credibility as might be given a reading from Isaiah, for example.
No it doesn’t. God inspires humans in many ways. I recently listened to the story of a Methodist lady who felt inspired by God to work in Africa as a midwife. She has written an autobiography. Her story was fascinating, and I would say the Holy Spirit was operative in her life and inspiring her. However, her autobiography could not be classified as Divine Revelation. One may be inspired by God in many ways to do many things. However a better term is perhaps moved or prompted to distinguish this action of the Holy Spirit from a Revelation of Divine truths. Divine Revelation contains truths about God that could not be discovered or comprehended by human reason alone. That’s one of the distinguishing feature of Revelation and why humans struggle to express certain beliefs in human language.
Why might one conclude this to be the case if not because of the latter’s closer proximity to some specific origins? Would not Aquinas’, being more modern, possibly suggest that they were more developed and therefore more accurate than those of any of the Old Testament authors? Why would not the Church pursue an agenda of accuracy over seeming nostalgia?

Yet even these worthies apparently failed to encapsulate as refined a message as might be found in the writings of later doctors of the Church. Why then is their script more noteworthy than that of later authors?

If this is due to proximity to the source, is this not then suggestive that their message must be assessed to be more accurate than later formulations from authors further removed? If so, why would one be so prepared to discard the positions put forward by their coverage of certain subjects in favor of more modern ones espoused by current authors?

To be specific, why might one discard St. Luke’s clear imagery of Jesus as judge in favor of a later author’s assessment that Jesus does not judge, but merely observes the natural self-judgment of the individual? The former places Jesus in an active role (one in which he bears a responsibility for the outcome), whereas the latter allows him a passive role (one in which he merely observes what is necessary–and beyond his apparent control).
I must apologize but I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Please don’t think I’m being rude, but I really don’t understand what you have written here, and don’t know where you’re coming from.
 
Thank you for the clarification, but kindly understand that the point being examined was not the difference between the terms allegory and non-real. In the humble expectations of this author, both may be seen as equivalent for the purposes of this inquiry.

The point might be more clearly illustrated in this manner: whereas throughout history none have ever considered the parables of Jesus to be literally true events, many, many throughout history have considered those portions of the Bible labelled allegorical by some today to have been true tales. Indeed, many still regard them as such today–and not all of these are restricted to the protestant ranks.
That’s true. There are people whose interpretation of scripture would be very literal, and others would not interpret scripture so literally. My position would be there are passages of scripture that are taken literally that the author did not intend to be taken literally.
So it is that this one inquires: if what today appears allegorical had a previous history of being understood literally, what other concepts within the same works might be understood today as literal, but may be understood by subsequent generations as allegorical? What device within the texts makes any clear distinction between the two?
Your question is a good one. I’m not an expert on this by any stretch of the imagination, it’s more of a kind of hobby.
However, I’ll give your question a go.

The literary form and construction of the text are indicative of an allegorical meaning or a literal meaning. The historical backdrop of scripture is also an influencing factor as to interpretation. Catholics also believe scripture has a dynamic character. What that means is it has a past, present and future meaning.

To illustrate - I would guess you have heard the saying, ‘Raining cats and dogs.’ When we use this expression, do we mean it literally? Of course not, it’s a metaphor. However, at one time it had a literal meaning. When people lived in houses with thatched roofs, small animals used to sleep in the thatch and sometimes fell out of it - that’s were the saying comes from. Another example is, ‘throwing the baby out with the bathwater.’ When people bathed by the fire in a tin bath, the whole family used the same water. The man of the house bathed first, and the last person to be bathed was the baby. By which time, the water was pretty dirty and sometimes the baby literally did get thrown out with the bathwater. I could give you any number of examples of this kind of thing as it’s a bit of a hobby of mine.

I can also recall a parable of Jesus that had some literal meaning, and was based on another parable. A lot of Jesus parables were based on parables the Israelites were already familiar with and he adapted them to teach the Kingdom of God to help people understand. I can’t remember all the details now, but I think it was the parable about the enemy sowing darnel among his neighbors wheat. There was some law in first century Rome concerning sowing darnel, (or weeds) in a neighbors field. Sowing darnel in a neighbors field did happen and was punishable by law.

What I’m saying is a parable or literary work can have a variety of meanings, and may actually be intended to have, all of which may be true in the context to which they relate. So in answer to your question, yes, works that might be understood as literal today, may be understood by subsequent generations as allegorical, and both understandings may be acceptable.
Happy St. Patrick’s Day! :irish2:
And to you. :irish2:

If your interested, I can also tell you were many others sayings such as ‘dead ringer,’ and ‘upper crust’ come from.😃
 
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