Explain the justice of hell.

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Finite and eternal are two different things. ‘Finite’ is a human expression. We often use human terms to explain what is not human because of our limited language. We human like certainty and like finite answers to questions because that is how we think. We don’t think in terms of eternal, or a better word may be ‘unending’ because of our human understanding that everything has a beginning and an end. As human, we cannot really comprehend eternity. To illustrate, we accept space has no end - but can we really comprehend something without an end? Can we really get our heads around what it means physically? Not really, because everything we know has a beginning and an end. In addition, God does not have desires in a human sense because God is not human. Therefore, God does not think in human terms and does not apply human reasoning to situations.
Perhaps so, but is it not also true that it is difficult to imagine one’s life coming to an end with nothing afterwards? This appears to be an inability to think in finite terms regarding our own mortality; infinite seems perfectly fine.
A person who rejects God has no desire to be with Him eternally. That desire is eternal and not something they think at a certain point in time in their life for an infinite number of reasons. I don’t think anyone would be sent to hell for a difference of opinion with God.
What if you are very, very wrong about this? Did God not lay out many commands that were worthy of death in Old Testament times? Did he not appear to be extremely judgmental? Would one expect a being that is claimed to be eternal and unchanging to change its mind and become suddenly pliable?
Do we not all have differences of opinion with God at many points in time throughout our lives?
A difference of opinion is not necessarily rejection. In addition, is the person rejecting God Himself, or the image of God others have created? We are all a little guilty of creating God in our own image, presuming to know what He thinks, wants and desires, and what He is like. We create a God that we want, one that meets with our approval and will do what we think is right which may not be who God is at all. Would such a person be necessarily evil throughout? That is something only God can know. The strange thing about human nature is there are people who are capable of evil acts with an evil intention, yet at the same time are capable of great good with a good intention.
Agreed.
It is certainly strange to imagine a person who would believes God exists, that He is goodness and love yet rejects Him. What we have been told is it can happen. As James says in his epistle, ‘So you believe in God do you? The ‘demons’ believe and shudder.’ I’m not going to into a debate as to whether the devil is a actual person and all that. The point I would take from it is real person or an illustrative character of evil, God’s opposite, Satan knew Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God yet rejected him.
OK.
Depends what you mean by ‘dislikes God.’ Why do they 'dislike God? Do they dislike the image of God that has been created, or God Himself? Can you dislike something you do not believe exists? Alternatively, it is possible to love many things and not God.
Our family are people we live with and know intimately. We engage with them and have a willingness to love them because they are our family irrespective of their faults and failings. One cannot know God unless one has a desire to engage Him and enter into a relationship with Him. If someone throughout their lives has no desire to enter into a relationship with God or engage him, that may be rejection. However only God can know.
Is it not true to say there are times when we don’t love our family? Does this mean we reject them? At a certain point in time when our relationship with them is not good, perhaps. It is fair to say the same follows with God because relationships are hard work.
Like I said, salvation is not about timing.
I would posit that it is impossible to definitively dislike God both for your well reasoned consideration: “can you dislike something you do not believe exists” as well as because God’s character is completely unknown. All one is truly able to do is dislike the image of God that is presented to them or the image of God they have created.

Given this logical situation, however, is it reasonable to assume that any can actually truly like God?
Did Jesus suggest those who merit Hell are in the majority? Do they literally burn? These things depend on your point of view and interpretation of scripture.
Is Jesus’ testimony credible? If one’s interpretation is other than God’s intention, why would God make no effort to enlighten the one? Particularly if the wrong interpretation might lead to the loss of one or many souls? Are souls so surplus a commodity to the creator that the loss of a miserable few here and there are not particularly noteworthy?
I don’t think damnation is a ‘right.’ I don’t God adheres to the ECHR or the American Constitution. 😃
Someone who is in hell is someone who God knows will not change their mind. In my view, if they would change their mind they would not be there, they would be in purgatory.
Why would God create a soul that he knew in advance would not change its mind?
Because from a Catholic perspective, repentance is ongoing. We do not believe in repentance as a one off act that covers sins for all time.
OK.
 
Matthew 5: 43 - 48

"You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This is how God loves and wants us to imitate this love ourselves. Since we are made in His image and likeness, He’s already wired us to be predisposed naturally to want to be with Him. Not to mention His great sacrifice for our benefit. Therefore, If one spends this life going away from God, ungrateful for what has been done for them, why should that person be surpriseed their fate for all eternity is not only seperation from God but from any perk even the slightest perk. God eternalizes the direction that person was going in. God didn’t force that direction. The person chose that.
Might not the reason they may be surprised that God might condemn them to Hell to be found in your quote above?

If being good only to those who are good to one is not being perfect as God is perfect, might one not expect God to follow his own advice? Instead, if one finds only that God treats those who have been good to him with goodness and those who have been evil to him with evil, is he not breaking his own perfect standard?
 
Why would a super intelligent and loving being decide to punish people forever based on what they believe about what they can not be sure about or fully understand? Why does it make sense to reward faith, when its lack of basis in proof and observable certainty makes it arbitrary, and usually just whatever somebody’s parents believed? Why make the punishment for what people do in their life infinitely disproportional to what they have done, based instead on a simple black and white arbitrary qualification?
I haven’t had a chance to read the other responses, so regrets if this is a repeat:

There is no justice in Hell. Hell could possibly be defined as injustice itself. The sole just characteristic of Hell that I can think of is that the people who are there want to be there since they don’t want to be with God - and God lets them.

Since the denizens of Hell are exactly where they want to be, they are there justly.
 
Might not the reason they may be surprised that God might condemn them to Hell to be found in your quote above?

If being good only to those who are good to one is not being perfect as God is perfect, might one not expect God to follow his own advice? Instead, if one finds only that God treats those who have been good to him with goodness and those who have been evil to him with evil, is he not breaking his own perfect standard?
Consider this analogy… There are two men on a journey. Man #1 knows the way to the promised land and wants to lead the other Man #2 there with him. Man #1 asks Man #2 to follow him. Man #2 spits in his face and insists on going his own way. Man #1 begs him turn around and warns him if you continue that way you will walk straight off of a cliff, and will never make it back up. Man #2 continues to ignore him and goes his own way. No matter how much Man 1 begs, Man #2 continues on the path to his death, and sure enough eventually reaches the cliff and falls to his death.

Was Man #1 not good to Man#2 even though he spit in his face and ignored his every warning? God is good to us all, but if we choose to ignore his warning, then who is responsible for our fall? We have no one to blame except ourselves, just as Man #2 has no one to blame except himself. It was his choice not to believe Man #1. And it did not matter whether or not Man #2 had any reason to disbelieve the cliff’s existence, his belief did not change the reality that the cliff existed. Are you willing to take that risk?
 
Perhaps so, but is it not also true that it is difficult to imagine one’s life coming to an end with nothing afterwards? This appears to be an inability to think in finite terms regarding our own mortality; infinite seems perfectly fine.
Lets say for the moment this point stands up: that people do not think of their own mortality in finite terms due to an inability. It does not explain why they have that inability. Is that inability due to indoctrination? Perhaps. There are people who believe many things, even aside from the existence of God, due to the fact they have been conditioned to do so. However, to believe every human who has ever existed from the dawn of time until now does not think in finite terms regarding their own morality due to an inability, would be, to say the least, a huge generalization.

The good book does say somewhere, I think its in the Psalms, that immortality has been written into our hearts by God. It is what makes humans distinct from animals. As far as we know, animals do not have a desire for immorality or exhibit a desire to worship a higher being. You don’t see many animals with high intelligence; such as apes or dolphins building churches and praying. 😃 Animals would appear to accept the finality of death more readily than humans.
What if you are very, very wrong about this? Did God not lay out many commands that were worthy of death in Old Testament times? Did he not appear to be extremely judgmental? Would one expect a being that is claimed to be eternal and unchanging to change its mind and become suddenly pliable?
There’s every possibility I am wrong. What I have said is based on my understanding at the moment. It’s not what I have always thought and there’s every possibility I may see things differently in the future. I’ve changed my mind about many things during my life and consequently, have invented my own little saying - ‘never say never because never is a very long time.’

The God of the Old Testament is very judgmental one. My take on it, is that is the image of God the Israelites had. The world they lived in was full of judgmental Gods who were actually pretty mean, and divine retribution from a God was a very common belief among other cultures and peoples the Israelites would have had regular contact with. Consequently, this would have impacted on their image of God. That is how I would explain the contrast between the image of God of the OT, and the image of God in the NT. God was never really known until he revealed in the Incarnation. The Israelites had knowledge of the divine law, but they had many misunderstandings in terms of who God really is because He had not yet been revealed in flesh.

Many commands were worthy of death in the OT. However, firstly the OT is God’s revelation expressed in human language. In the second instance, are these commands directly from God, or are they a human interpretation of God’s Revelation? When we read the OT, are we reading what was directly spoken by God, or the words of a prophet for example, attempting to explain what God has revealed to them? All depends on how you read and interpret the OT. To explain, when God revealed in his divine law that adultery and murder were morally wrong, did he also reveal these crimes must be punished with death, or is it a human interpretation and application to the principle God revealed? In my personal opinion, the only words we can be God actually spoke Himself are the 10 commandments. Everything else is Gods Revelation expressed in human language and according to human understanding. To illustrate further, there are occasions when the OT uses the phrase, ‘this is what the Lord has said,’ and on other occasions it reads, ‘Moses said.’ Therefore, is God speaking or is Moses speaking? If Moses is speaking, is Moses recounting what God revealed in human language, or is he offering his own opinion on a matter? There are times Paul says this in the NT. Sometimes he says ‘I am speaking to you as to the Lord,’ and other times he says ‘I am speaking to you as to my own opinion.’
Given this logical situation, however, is it reasonable to assume that any can actually truly like God?
Those who believe God has touched their lives and they have had personal encounters with Him can, because they have engaged Him on personal and intimate level.
Is Jesus’ testimony credible? If one’s interpretation is other than God’s intention, why would God make no effort to enlighten the one? Particularly if the wrong interpretation might lead to the loss of one or many souls? Are souls so surplus a commodity to the creator that the loss of a miserable few here and there are not particularly noteworthy?
God does enlighten. However, one must be open to being enlightened. Paul uses the illustration of clay. There is clay that is malleable the potter can work with and shape and make into a work of art. There is clay that is a hard lump (in the case of humans by their own choice) and the potter can do nothing with it.
Why would God create a soul that he knew in advance would not change its mind?
Catholics do not believe he does. That believe was Calvin’s concept of predestination. Therefore, its a question you would need to take up with someone who accepts Calvin’s concept of predestination - not a Catholic. 😉
 
I haven’t had a chance to read the other responses, so regrets if this is a repeat:

There is no justice in Hell. Hell could possibly be defined as injustice itself. The sole just characteristic of Hell that I can think of is that the people who are there want to be there since they don’t want to be with God - and God lets them.

Since the denizens of Hell are exactly where they want to be, they are there justly.
Well I think I already said this, but if I have, here it is again for you. I don’t not want to be with god, I don’t think god exists. You seem to be onboard with almost every other believer, in assuming that the unbeliever actually does believe your god exists, and is in some sort of rebellion or denial. Which is not true; we sincerely think your god does not exist. That does not equate to us not wanting anything to do with your god, if he did exist. But belief in your god is a prerequisite for any sort of desire to be with or without your god.
 
Well I think I already said this, but if I have, here it is again for you. I don’t not want to be with god, I don’t think god exists. You seem to be onboard with almost every other believer, in assuming that the unbeliever actually does believe your god exists, and is in some sort of rebellion or denial. Which is not true; we sincerely think your god does not exist. That does not equate to us not wanting anything to do with your god, if he did exist. But belief in your god is a prerequisite for any sort of desire to be with or without your god.
I believe the confusion comes from your actions. How can someone say they do not want to be with God if they truly do not believe in the existence of God? Why would this same person also bother debating the justice of Hell if Hell is about as real to them as the land of misfit toys? Do you debate the justice of the land of misfit toys? Would you spend time debating the justice of the land of misfit toys? From what I can see is the above comment is an unbeliever trying to excuse their unbelief; which just seems like an odd thing for a true unbeliever to do.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas offers a succint and logical explanation of the justice of hell:

Prem. I: No one is condemened to hell without having committed a mortal sin.
Prem. II: For a sin to be mortal, it must be freely and delibrately chosen.
Concl.: Therefore, no one is condemned to hell without freely and deliberately choosing it.

Furthermore, when we fully understand the greatness of God, we will only then understand that hell is a fitting punishment to those who would offend such a Being.
 
Well I think I already said this, but if I have, here it is again for you. I don’t not want to be with god, I don’t think god exists. You seem to be onboard with almost every other believer, in assuming that the unbeliever actually does believe your god exists, and is in some sort of rebellion or denial. Which is not true; we sincerely think your god does not exist. That does not equate to us not wanting anything to do with your god, if he did exist. But belief in your god is a prerequisite for any sort of desire to be with or without your god.
Problem is that your belief or disbelief in God has zero effect on the reality of whether or not he exists. Your are taking a gamble.

If you are right and we are wrong:
  1. you win the benefits of not having to live by any moral code other than your own desires.
  2. we are making sacrifices for no real reason. We will die and nothing will happen, never even realizing we were wrong.
BUT if we are right and you are wrong:
  1. you still get whatever benefits you gained by living according to your own will. But these are minimal considering the possibility of eternity in Hell.
  2. we still must make sacrifices in our lives to do God’s will, but again these are minimal considering the possibility of eternal life in Heaven with God.
Not believing is a gamble with high risk and low reward. Believing and following Gods will is a high reward, wih the only risk being dying and nothing happens.

Disclaimer: the Catholic Church never states that it is certain that any specific person is going to Hell. That is not our decision to make, and we do not know know what happens at the moment of death. Maybe God offers one last chance to repent and follow Him, maybe not. We will not know until we get there. The Catholic Church just promotes the guidelines Chist gave us to live by on this earth, to give us the best possibility of eternal life with God.
 
I haven’t had a chance to read the other responses, so regrets if this is a repeat:

There is no justice in Hell. Hell could possibly be defined as injustice itself. The sole just characteristic of Hell that I can think of is that the people who are there want to be there since they don’t want to be with God - and God lets them.

Since the denizens of Hell are exactly where they want to be, they are there justly.
Is God’s stipulation that either a soul is able to successfully join him in Heaven or else suffer eternally, just? Why only two options from a being comprised solely of love?
 
Is God’s stipulation that either a soul is able to successfully join him in Heaven or else suffer eternally, just? Why only two options from a being comprised solely of love?
As Catholics we believe in Purgatory. Once in Pergatory, eventually you will end up in Heaven after being purged of our attachment to sin. Topic for a different thread though…
 
Consider this analogy… There are two men on a journey. Man #1 knows the way to the promised land and wants to lead the other Man #2 there with him. Man #1 asks Man #2 to follow him. Man #2 spits in his face and insists on going his own way. Man #1 begs him turn around and warns him if you continue that way you will walk straight off of a cliff, and will never make it back up. Man #2 continues to ignore him and goes his own way. No matter how much Man 1 begs, Man #2 continues on the path to his death, and sure enough eventually reaches the cliff and falls to his death.

Was Man #1 not good to Man#2 even though he spit in his face and ignored his every warning? God is good to us all, but if we choose to ignore his warning, then who is responsible for our fall? We have no one to blame except ourselves, just as Man #2 has no one to blame except himself. It was his choice not to believe Man #1. And it did not matter whether or not Man #2 had any reason to disbelieve the cliff’s existence, his belief did not change the reality that the cliff existed. Are you willing to take that risk?
Would you permit a correction of the analogy?

If the first man were to represent God, then it would be necessary to point out that he was also the creator of the land and capable of eliminating cliffs as needed. It would also be necessary to alter his appearance so that he was not actually physically present, but invisible. His discourse would also necessarily be less direct given that he might send as representatives any of a thousand vultures who might each parrot a different message and hint at a different direction.

Might it not then be understandable when the second man eventually grows frustrated with all of the confusion and eventually gives up any attempt to follow the conflicting, whimsical advice of the one he has never actually seen, but merely heard represented in myriad different ways?

Might his subsequent falling from a cliff not be largely the responsibility of the one who chose not to speak clearly enough to make his warnings meaningful, but instead made a spectacle of the ordeal for his own enigmatic purposes?

Should one applaud the first individual as he stands, finally revealed, at the top of the cliff and looks down wrathfully on the second for advice not followed?
 
Problem is that your belief or disbelief in God has zero effect on the reality of whether or not he exists. Your are taking a gamble.
But its not a gamble if I have no control over what I think is true.
If you are right and we are wrong:
  1. you win the benefits of not having to live by any moral code other than your own desires.
  2. we are making sacrifices for no real reason. We will die and nothing will happen, never even realizing we were wrong.
But number 1 is not the reason I don’t believe. I don’t believe because I don’t think its true. Number 1 could only be considered, at least by me, a benefit that only comes after the fact that I don’t believe. Its not the other way around.
BUT if we are right and you are wrong:
  1. you still get whatever benefits you gained by living according to your own will. But these are minimal considering the possibility of eternity in Hell.
  2. we still must make sacrifices in our lives to do God’s will, but again these are minimal considering the possibility of eternal life in Heaven with God.
Sure, but from my stance, I could suffer the same consequences if Islam is correct, and we both go to Muslim hell. I simply have no reason to think your religion is any more true than Islam, Judaism, etc… This is why Pascal’s Wager fails.
Not believing is a gamble with high risk and low reward. Believing and following Gods will is a high reward, wih the only risk being dying and nothing happens.
Again, its not a gamble because it is not a choice on my part.
Disclaimer: the Catholic Church never states that it is certain that any specific person is going to Hell. That is not our decision to make, and we do not know know what happens at the moment of death. Maybe God offers one last chance to repent and follow Him, maybe not. We will not know until we get there. The Catholic Church just promotes the guidelines Chist gave us to live by on this earth, to give us the best possibility of eternal life with God.
And I am not worried about the afterlife if there is a god, I don’t think god will care what I believed about what I could not know. But yes, there is only one way to find out, and that is to die. Maybe its nothing, maybe I go to heaven along with everybody under the judgement of an eternally correcting and forgiving god (perhaps murderers are made to not want to murder in heaven somehow, and are only given a finite punishment, etc.), or perhaps I go to a hell from one of the religions that believes in it. I still have no reason to think any of these are more likely than the others, other than the fact that an intelligent and loving god would, in my opinion, not make the latter options possible.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas offers a succint and logical explanation of the justice of hell:

Prem. I: No one is condemened to hell without having committed a mortal sin.
Prem. II: For a sin to be mortal, it must be freely and delibrately chosen.
Concl.: Therefore, no one is condemned to hell without freely and deliberately choosing it.

Furthermore, when we fully understand the greatness of God, we will only then understand that hell is a fitting punishment to those who would offend such a Being.
An interesting argument, but upon what empirical basis are these claims made? Lacking objective proof are they not mere opinion?

Also, to what extent do these points factor in what science is only recently exploring- the degree to which certain traits & thought processes are hard wired or genetic? For example, there are people who have chemical imbalances or mental illness who years ago, perhaps in Aquinas’ world, would have been deemed as sinners or even possessed.

Has anyone thought or accounted for the fact that ancient Biblical passages & primitive medieval interpretations thereof were made long before modern science, math & more? Why have almost all facets of our life & common human experience evolved except the world’s larger religions, who too often remain firmly in the middle ages. Look no further then Islam for arguably the best example. Is Christianity all that different? If yes, how so?
 
But in relation to God might it not be supposed that we are all very “stupid” indeed?
It would be foolish to assume that one must have an infinite knowledge and wisdom to be culpable of anything. We have a conscience, do we not? And is it possible to violate this conscience? If the answer is yes, then we have a culpability to a greater or lesser extent. Now, the formation of that conscience is another matter, but for the subject at hand it would be foolhardy to assume that we aren’t held up to a moral standard of sorts! And certainly someone as tender-hearted as yourself could understand that. We are designed for love.
Is this to mean that he neither loves them enough to take action, nor does he appreciate their discomfort? How could a being of love be so disconnected from such agonies?
The action, my friend, has been taken! Was he not knocking at the door their entire life? Did he not love them into existence, and with the very same love sustain them until their death? It is my opinion that Christ is suffering far more than any of the souls in hell by our rejection of him.
Was not your earlier position that God does not love as we do? If not, how is it that we are specifically designed to receive this love for which we have no correlation or understanding? Is not the concept of a loving father, obedient son, and personified loving spirit understandable? Is not the structure of a loving family equally understandable? If so, in what way is God’s loving nature different from ours?
Excellent question. This is the mystery of grace. We aren’t quite sure how it works. All we know is that, while it does not internally change our nature, it elevates our nature to the virtue of God’s. In such a way, the chasm of virtue between us is conditionally bridged, and we may become intimate with him.
Why would an almighty creator god of love be required to deprive any of Heaven in order to treat differently those destined for Hell? Is it beyond his ability to create two Heavenly orders, for example? If not, is not his solution of Hell solely at his own discretion? If so, what type of personality requires that one’s enemies suffer whilst they, in turn, enjoy great satisfaction and happiness?
Damnation is not a necessity. The possibility of damnation, however, is indeed necessary. And the reality of that possibility lies on the shoulders of the creature, not the creator. Keep heart, though. While, like I said earlier, I’m not too much into speculation on matters that aren’t immediately necessitous, I think it would be reasonable to assume that most souls are indeed saved. Most, likely by the skin of their teeth moments before their death; but none-the-less, we have a tendency to turn a contrite heart towards God in seemingly hopeless circumstances.
If it were true that God provides more grace than is required for the salvation of all, why are not all saved?
Not all scholastic theologians will give you the same answer (as there are many different types of answers). In our feeble intellect, wrapping our brains around the grand scheme of things is quite difficult. I think this article might give you some food for though on this subject. If you feel inclined to, we can look into this a little deeper. This will outline a lot of the differences between Catholic scholasticism, mainstream Protestantism, and Calvinism/Evangelicalism.
Is it fair to assume that God provides more (intellect or grace) to those whom he likes best? If not, why was Satan, who was provided with the greatest intellect and outward beauty, deemed God’s favored creation? Alternately, why would God deprive his favored of the attributes most necessary to their salvation? If one might assume that God so provides, might not his lack of provision suggest that he does not care as greatly for animals of the lower orders? Would such not clearly suggest that God does not like dogs?
Oh dear… Of course not! We, as humans, have a tendency to always look at things in light of relativity. We look at patterns, sequences, classifications, structures, etc. in an attempt to simplify things so that we may understand it. We’re always thinking of things in relations to us. God’s love, however, cannot be simplified in light of our understanding. In this way, he perfectly loves each nature in a way that is proper to it.
I think I used “grace” (earlier) in a confusing context. Grace is a free gift. It comes from the latin word gratia. This can mean many things-- including the possession of qualities, friendship with God etc. In terms of salvation, it is a free gift from God that, upon like free response, sanctifies the receiver more unto like Christ.
In terms of Lucifer, he was favored by God in the sense of his qualities. He was brilliant, he was beautiful, he was charismatic, etc. Before time, God had this idea of an angel named Lucifer. Lucifer, being an idea, was not inherently deserving of being himself with such qualities; all glory and honor is due to God. In this sense, Lucifer received the grace of such qualities. In relations to the other angels, we don’t know how much salvific grace he received; we at least know it was sufficient, in light of God’s benevolence.
 
Would you permit a correction of the analogy?

If the first man were to represent God, then it would be necessary to point out that he was also the creator of the land and capable of eliminating cliffs as needed. It would also be necessary to alter his appearance so that he was not actually physically present, but invisible. His discourse would also necessarily be less direct given that he might send as representatives any of a thousand vultures who might each parrot a different message and hint at a different direction.

Might it not then be understandable when the second man eventually grows frustrated with all of the confusion and eventually gives up any attempt to follow the conflicting, whimsical advice of the one he has never actually seen, but merely heard represented in myriad different ways?

Might his subsequent falling from a cliff not be largely the responsibility of the one who chose not to speak clearly enough to make his warnings meaningful, but instead made a spectacle of the ordeal for his own enigmatic purposes?

Should one applaud the first individual as he stands, finally revealed, at the top of the cliff and looks down wrathfully on the second for advice not followed?
First of all, God does not look down wrathfully at those who have taken the fall. His heart is filled with sorrow. But he cannot change the decisions we make, because he gave us free will. Without such free will, we could not choose to follow him, we would be forced, which is not loving.

He cannot remove the cliff, as it would not be just. There once was a world with no “cliff”, the Garden of Eden. But we chose to abandon God anyway, so now we must choose to seek Him.

I feel your pain in regards to all of the conflicting advice and misconceptions out there. That’s why Christ gave us the Catholic Church to guide us, and to do so with consistency, using tools such as the Bible to help us along the way.

I am not claiming to have all the answers, and I realize a lot of this will not make a whole heck of a lot of sense if you don’t even believe in God. It’s discouraging to attack the dilemma with reason alone, the burden is too much for anyone. That’s why a " leap of faith" is required. Thats when God truly does start speaking very clearly. You can’t expect to hear a clear message from someone you don’t even believe in.
 
Lets say for the moment this point stands up: that people do not think of their own mortality in finite terms due to an inability. It does not explain why they have that inability. However, to believe every human who has ever existed from the dawn of time until now does not think in finite terms regarding their own morality due to an inability, would be, to say the least, a huge generalization.
And yet even if only a minority were able, would it not cause difficulties for the statement: “we are unable to visualize infinities”?
You don’t see many animals with high intelligence; such as apes or dolphins building churches and praying. 😃
Is this not odd considering all of creation supposedly calls out praises for its creator?
Animals would appear to accept the finality of death more readily than humans.
Yet many higher order mammals appear to mourn their dead.
There’s every possibility I am wrong. What I have said is based on my understanding at the moment. It’s not what I have always thought and there’s every possibility I may see things differently in the future. I’ve changed my mind about many things during my life.
Fair enough.
The God of the Old Testament is very judgmental one. My take on it, is that is the image of God the Israelites had. The world they lived in was full of judgmental Gods who were actually pretty mean, and divine retribution from a God was a very common belief among other cultures and peoples the Israelites would have had regular contact with. Consequently, this would have impacted on their image of God. God was never really known until he revealed in the Incarnation. The Israelites had knowledge of the divine law, but they had many misunderstandings in terms of who God really is because He had not yet been revealed in flesh.
Many commands were worthy of death in the OT. However, firstly the OT is God’s revelation expressed in human language. In the second instance, are these commands directly from God, or are they a human interpretation of God’s Revelation? When we read the OT, are we reading what was directly spoken by God, or the words of a prophet for example, attempting to explain what God has revealed to them? All depends on how you read and interpret the OT. To explain, when God revealed in his divine law that adultery and murder were morally wrong, did he also reveal these crimes must be punished with death, or is it a human interpretation and application to the principle God revealed? In my personal opinion, the only words we can be God actually spoke Himself are the 10 commandments. Everything else is Gods Revelation expressed in human language and according to human understanding. To illustrate further, there are occasions when the OT uses the phrase, ‘this is what the Lord has said,’ and on other occasions it reads, ‘Moses said.’ Therefore, is God speaking or is Moses speaking? If Moses is speaking, is Moses recounting what God revealed in human language, or is he offering his own opinion on a matter? There are times Paul says this in the NT. Sometimes he says ‘I am speaking to you as to the Lord,’ and other times he says ‘I am speaking to you as to my own opinion.’
This is a fair possibility, but did Jesus ever countermand any of the dictates of scripture? Did he clarify a singly instance in which God was alleged to have made outrageous demands (such as the merciless massacre of the Canaanites)? Instead, when given the strongest opportunity possible to distance himself from any portion of it, what was his response other than to validate the entire work by claiming not one dash amongst the texts need be changed?

Did not the Holy Spirit also allegedly play a role in ensuring that the Old Testament remain as a testament to God’s words and acts? Might not one have expected the Holy Spirit to reject large swaths of these texts as being falsely attributed to God if it truly were the case? Might not one have expected this Advocate to especially object to the claim that God would send lying spirits to thwart his enemies–for, after all, if God might lie to his enemies, how might one be certain that his word is always true even to the stalwart?

1 Kings 22:23
Those who believe God has touched their lives and they have had personal encounters with Him can, because they have engaged Him on personal and intimate level.
Assuming that such claims are legitimate…
God does enlighten. However, one must be open to being enlightened. Paul uses the illustration of clay. There is clay that is malleable the potter can work with and shape and make into a work of art. There is clay that is a hard lump (in the case of humans by their own choice) and the potter can do nothing with it.
Is not the potter responsible for the maintenance of his clay? Is not its lack of malleability his responsibility for having allowed dryness to set in? Why would God blame the clay when it was he who withheld the water?
Catholics do not believe he does. That believe was Calvin’s concept of predestination. Therefore, its a question you would need to take up with someone who accepts Calvin’s concept of predestination - not a Catholic. 😉
If God is omniscient, would he not have known from the beginning of time exactly how each and every soul would progress? Additionally, does God not intervene in certain Earthly cases at the behest of prayer? Juxtaposed, how is it explicable that God is able to both foresee the results of his lack of intervention (Hell) and yet at the same time choose inaction? Would a loving parent merely watch as a freight train bore down on their child heedlessly walking the tracks, regardless of how rebellious the teenager?
 
I believe the confusion comes from your actions. How can someone say they do not want to be with God if they truly do not believe in the existence of God? Why would this same person also bother debating the justice of Hell if Hell is about as real to them as the land of misfit toys? Do you debate the justice of the land of misfit toys? Would you spend time debating the justice of the land of misfit toys? From what I can see is the above comment is an unbeliever trying to excuse their unbelief; which just seems like an odd thing for a true unbeliever to do.
Are there giant churches dedicated to this land? Are there entire hierarchies of individuals giving their whole lives to the spread of its message? Are friends and associates constantly warning one of the peril of not heeding the message? Is one’s family among the most ardent of believers, often spending countless hours of prayer offered for the conversion of the one?

Might I compliment you on your very compelling toad? Also, it was interesting seeing your post formatting: so centered it appeared poetic. 😉
 
St. Thomas Aquinas offers a succint and logical explanation of the justice of hell:

Prem. I: No one is condemened to hell without having committed a mortal sin.
Prem. II: For a sin to be mortal, it must be freely and delibrately chosen.
Concl.: Therefore, no one is condemned to hell without freely and deliberately choosing it.

Furthermore, when we fully understand the greatness of God, we will only then understand that hell is a fitting punishment to those who would offend such a Being.
Might one not then have commended Stalin for his perfect justice?

Prem. I: Only traitors to the state are arrested and tortured.
Prem. II: To be a traitor, traitorous acts must have been freely and deliberately committed.
Concl.: Therefore, no one is arrested and tortured without freely and deliberately choosing it.

Supposing one did not choose to commit traitorous acts, must they then, by default, be said to love Stalin and his perfect justice and wish to reside with him in his palace for the rest of their days?
 
Problem is that your belief or disbelief in God has zero effect on the reality of whether or not he exists. Your are taking a gamble.

If you are right and we are wrong:
  1. you win the benefits of not having to live by any moral code other than your own desires.
  2. we are making sacrifices for no real reason. We will die and nothing will happen, never even realizing we were wrong.
BUT if we are right and you are wrong:
  1. you still get whatever benefits you gained by living according to your own will. But these are minimal considering the possibility of eternity in Hell.
  2. we still must make sacrifices in our lives to do God’s will, but again these are minimal considering the possibility of eternal life in Heaven with God.
Not believing is a gamble with high risk and low reward. Believing and following Gods will is a high reward, wih the only risk being dying and nothing happens.

Disclaimer: the Catholic Church never states that it is certain that any specific person is going to Hell. That is not our decision to make, and we do not know know what happens at the moment of death. Maybe God offers one last chance to repent and follow Him, maybe not. We will not know until we get there. The Catholic Church just promotes the guidelines Chist gave us to live by on this earth, to give us the best possibility of eternal life with God.
If God is pure love, what is the greatest thing one might fear if encountering him after death? Might one merely feel a moment of chagrin before God embraces the one and proceeds to point out all of the instances in the one’s life where he was supported by God unawares? Alternately, if God is not pure love, but is instead Biblically vindictive, might not a coexistence with such a one for an eternity be the purest torment?
 
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