W
Wyatt
Guest
Luther was a dingbat.
The End.
Next topic.
The End.
Next topic.
- Status
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Well that solves everything. Heck, who even needed the Reformation. Luther could’ve just said “Pope Leo X is a dingbat.”
Actually, I think he probably did.
Oh well.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
J
jesusluv
Guest
I’ve tried, trust me. I’ve even mentioned that every topic title is basically a sum up of how wrong a particular Protestant belief is with a question of how anyone could possibly believe it. The response is simply that “the faith is being defended”.
A defense of the Catholic faith is all well and good, but that would mean that someone was on the offense and you were defending against that offense. On the non-Catholic forum, we have thread after thread of calling protestants out with an attack on any given belief, or the lack of belief in a Catholic doctrine.
R
reen12
Guest
quote: JimmyB
and read a couple of biographies, 30 years ago.
The sole reason [pun?] that Luther escaped the
fate of Hus and Savanarola, was because
Frederick the Elector, of Saxony, [Frederick the Wise]
had his agents swoop up Luther, as Luther
was on his way home from the Diet of Worms -
and these agents deposited Luther in Wartburg
Castle, to keep him safe.
I don’t at all see Luther’s influence as primarily that of an agent of religious change.
Luther was part of a much larger change taking place, at the time.
Rise in nationalism, rise of a middle class, rise of capitalism,
with Luther bidding farewell to Rome, when it came to Rome’s power.
[different issue than Rome’s authority.]
Basically, Luther broke the power of Rome.
Not over a period of years - rather, decades.
For the first time, in 400 years, [roughly] - since the East waved goodbye,
over Rome’s arrogance - in defining the order of the procession of the Trinity -
one man, Luther, said *‘enough.’ *And made it stick.
What Luther let loose, in the world, was the thought that an individual,
not a corporate entity, has the authority to both assess,
and to determine, what he/she will accept as realtiy -
this new thought gaining strength, as time went forward.
Luther, himself, never understood this, I don’t think.
The century after Luther, saw the beginnings of what
would be called the Enlightenment - this eventuating in
the ‘scientism’ of our own day. [Nothing, that cannot be ‘proved’,
empirically, is granted ‘truth value.’]
To see Luther, solely thru the lens of Catholicism, Lutheranism,
or the other Christian Churches, is to miss the boggling change that Luther wrought.
The individual - not corporate* anything* - was now the ‘locus of control.’
An interior locus, not an exterior locus. This was a huge change.
Forget ‘religion.’ I’m looking at the effects, nearly 500 years later.
‘modern’ = 1500 A.D., in terms historic.]
What fascinates, in terms of Martin Luther, was his own assumption of authority - making himself the locus of control - which simply resumed the previous pattern, of an exterior locus.
The theology of the Catholic Church is air-tight - when it
comes to the canons of logic. Grant certain premises,
appeal to Scripture, and Catholic theology is found to
be logically ‘elegant,’ and perfectly gorgeous, in so many ways.
Since the ‘proof-texts’ [scripture] are held in common,
[Luther tossed the letter of James -on what authority?]
a skilled defender of the doctrines of Catholicism
always ‘wins,’ in debate - in terms of the canons of logic.
The secular world looks on, as these exchanges take place -
As far as Luther and ‘hate,’ one thinks of Savanarola,
and two companions, being hung from a large cross, with a huge fire
ignited below them. Rome, using the gov’t - to effect their brutal execution -
so Rome did not have their blood on her hands [echoes of Pontius Pilate?] -
making certain that all three bodies were completely consumed, so there would
be no tissue or bone remaining, by which to create ‘relics’ of these three ‘heretics,’
or ‘martyrs’ - depending on one’s religious beliefs.
This kind of wretched behavior, was not limited to the Catholic Church.
There’s enough stomach churning activity, to go round, in these terms,
given the actions of some of the other Christian Churches, as time went forward.
In any event, God spare us all from another theocracy. Period.
“You can always tell those being done good to -
by the haggard expressions on their faces.”
quote: reen12, from another thread
ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SFxXNtXRL.jpg
Mother of 14 children, Anne would have been better off, had she conveyed her views in a whisper. :coffeeread:
[At one point, in Christian history, you never could tell when the forces of light and goodness would light a pile of sticks, at your bound feet…the more to give off the light of truth?] An ‘illuminating’ period, in the course of Christian history?
Stake burning was not limited to Holy Mother Church - and her warm embrace of some of her children - which some of her children found too hot to handle.
Who knows?
Maybe these fervid followers, of the Prince of Peace - got the
flames of the stake confused with tongues of fire. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
Le cœur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît pas.
reen12
Used to have 1/2 the collected works of Luther,
and read a couple of biographies, 30 years ago.
The sole reason [pun?] that Luther escaped the
fate of Hus and Savanarola, was because
Frederick the Elector, of Saxony, [Frederick the Wise]
had his agents swoop up Luther, as Luther
was on his way home from the Diet of Worms -
and these agents deposited Luther in Wartburg
Castle, to keep him safe.
I don’t at all see Luther’s influence as primarily that of an agent of religious change.
Luther was part of a much larger change taking place, at the time.
Rise in nationalism, rise of a middle class, rise of capitalism,
with Luther bidding farewell to Rome, when it came to Rome’s power.
[different issue than Rome’s authority.]
Basically, Luther broke the power of Rome.
Not over a period of years - rather, decades.
For the first time, in 400 years, [roughly] - since the East waved goodbye,
over Rome’s arrogance - in defining the order of the procession of the Trinity -
one man, Luther, said *‘enough.’ *And made it stick.
What Luther let loose, in the world, was the thought that an individual,
not a corporate entity, has the authority to both assess,
and to determine, what he/she will accept as realtiy -
this new thought gaining strength, as time went forward.
Luther, himself, never understood this, I don’t think.
The century after Luther, saw the beginnings of what
would be called the Enlightenment - this eventuating in
the ‘scientism’ of our own day. [Nothing, that cannot be ‘proved’,
empirically, is granted ‘truth value.’]
To see Luther, solely thru the lens of Catholicism, Lutheranism,
or the other Christian Churches, is to miss the boggling change that Luther wrought.
The individual - not corporate* anything* - was now the ‘locus of control.’
An interior locus, not an exterior locus. This was a huge change.
Forget ‘religion.’ I’m looking at the effects, nearly 500 years later.
‘modern’ = 1500 A.D., in terms historic.]
What fascinates, in terms of Martin Luther, was his own assumption of authority - making himself the locus of control - which simply resumed the previous pattern, of an exterior locus.
The theology of the Catholic Church is air-tight - when it
comes to the canons of logic. Grant certain premises,
appeal to Scripture, and Catholic theology is found to
be logically ‘elegant,’ and perfectly gorgeous, in so many ways.
Since the ‘proof-texts’ [scripture] are held in common,
[Luther tossed the letter of James -on what authority?]
a skilled defender of the doctrines of Catholicism
always ‘wins,’ in debate - in terms of the canons of logic.
The secular world looks on, as these exchanges take place -
between members of various Christian Churches, with a sense of wonder.
Debating points that have no ‘truth value,’ empirically, in it’s world.
[keeping in mind that the ‘doctrines’ of secular humanism are
triumphant, in our own day.]
As far as Luther and ‘hate,’ one thinks of Savanarola,and two companions, being hung from a large cross, with a huge fire
ignited below them. Rome, using the gov’t - to effect their brutal execution -
so Rome did not have their blood on her hands [echoes of Pontius Pilate?] -
making certain that all three bodies were completely consumed, so there would
be no tissue or bone remaining, by which to create ‘relics’ of these three ‘heretics,’
or ‘martyrs’ - depending on one’s religious beliefs.
This kind of wretched behavior, was not limited to the Catholic Church.
There’s enough stomach churning activity, to go round, in these terms,
given the actions of some of the other Christian Churches, as time went forward.
In any event, God spare us all from another theocracy. Period.
“You can always tell those being done good to -
by the haggard expressions on their faces.”
quote: reen12, from another thread
trying to keep his light under a bushel? - or Anne Hutchinson, who miscarried, after being hectored by her fellow Christians, when she was put on trial - for months - including imprisonment, by a perfectly odius bunch of believers, before being exiled from the colony.
ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SFxXNtXRL.jpg
Mother of 14 children, Anne would have been better off, had she conveyed her views in a whisper. :coffeeread:
[At one point, in Christian history, you never could tell when the forces of light and goodness would light a pile of sticks, at your bound feet…the more to give off the light of truth?] An ‘illuminating’ period, in the course of Christian history?
Stake burning was not limited to Holy Mother Church - and her warm embrace of some of her children - which some of her children found too hot to handle.
Who knows?
Maybe these fervid followers, of the Prince of Peace - got the
flames of the stake confused with tongues of fire. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
Le cœur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît pas.
reen12
po18guy
Well-known member
Here’s what I learned from recent posts:
This might take a while.
- Jimmy is filled with anger/hatred/contempt.
- I’m treated with “more respect” on forums where all agree with me.
- The mods let him get away with murder.
- The Catholic church is terrible, all through history.
- Mean, corrupt popes that kept free thinkers under their thumb.
- Luther was Europe’s, indeed western civilization’s savior, and built the modern world almost single-handedly.
This might take a while.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
P
Peter_J
Guest
Why don’t you just ignore him?
R
reen12
Guest
quote: po18guy
quote: reen12
quote: TriuneUnity
Bingo!!!
quote: reen12
- was now the ‘locus of control.’
An interior locus, not an exterior locus. This was a huge change.
Forget ‘religion.’ I’m looking at the effects, nearly 500 years later.
‘modern’ = 1500 A.D., in terms historic.]
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Why would he? We are both Catholics and I like **po18guy. **He does an excellent job, as do many others here in defending the Catholic faith. I am not in disagreement with him.
Is it appropriate or charitable, to try to encourage discourse among other members here at CAF?
If people “play within the rules” here? Should they be censored because you or others here (in general), disagree with that particular member or his posting style?
Responses to these threads here, answer many questions and they don’t always have to do with a particular thread. Tolerance or the lack there-of, appears to be an issue in many of these threads. I have also noticed a common theme, which occurs in society, in general today and that is, if someone doesn’t get there way, the name-calling starts. Call me old fashion but I don’t get it?
The topic for this thread is - EXSURGE DOMINE - Condemning The Errors Of Martin Luther.
Please stay on topic… thank you.
Peace.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Blah blah blah blah…
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello TriuneUnity, you should save this one, I’m sure you could find an occasion or two, where you could use this one on me…
I thought of it many times and was tempted to use it on some here but didn’t, because this type of response isn’t really a response… It is funny though.
Be nice to my buddy po18guy…
Peace
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
haha, Jimmy…I don’t think I’ve agreed with any of the main posts you’ve put up here but I haven’t ever felt the need to blah blah blah you LOL.Hello TriuneUnity, you should save this one, I’m sure you could find an occasion or two, where you could use this one on me…
I thought of it many times and was tempted to use it on some here but didn’t, because this type of response isn’t really a response… It is funny though.
Be nice to my buddy po18guy…
Peace
po18’s accusation has been answered and refuted so many times, there really isn’t any point in trying.
R
reen12
Guest
From soley curiosity, TriuneUnity, do you hold that
Catholic theology is not air-tight - given the canons of logic?
-Christ tells Peter: ‘Upon this rock…’
-He promises the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit,
for his church
-Someone had to follow Peter. If the Church jumped the rails - from the get-go - does this not indicate, of logical necessity - that the Holy Spirit did not give guidance, for nearly 1500 years?
How do any of the Reformation churches confront the sheer logic, of Catholic theology?
I can honestly say, that I see no way - given the gospels,
and the canons of logic - that any Reformation Church
can possibly think that their own theology is ‘correct,’
and Rome’s in error.
Judaism remains the true faith. For there is no way that Catholicism reflects divinity.
Best,
reen12
Catholic theology is not air-tight - given the canons of logic?
-Christ tells Peter: ‘Upon this rock…’
-He promises the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit,
for his church
-Someone had to follow Peter. If the Church jumped the rails - from the get-go - does this not indicate, of logical necessity - that the Holy Spirit did not give guidance, for nearly 1500 years?
How do any of the Reformation churches confront the sheer logic, of Catholic theology?
I can honestly say, that I see no way - given the gospels,
and the canons of logic - that any Reformation Church
can possibly think that their own theology is ‘correct,’
and Rome’s in error.
Judaism remains the true faith. For there is no way that Catholicism reflects divinity.
Best,
reen12
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Well, to answer your question, I would NOT want the Middle Ages back. Haven’t you ever watched “Braveheart,” man? lol…In all seriousness, the brutality, constant political turmoil, lack of human rights, subjugation of the peasantry by rich and ruthless nobles, and execution for religious disagreement are not something I’d like to live through. The stagnating sciences and poor technology led to plague after plague and very poor standard of living. Kings ruled by ‘divine right’ and slaughtered at will. Nobles would turn on a dime if granted hereditary titles and land. It was a frightening world.
Now I can anticipate a response here: but nowdays we have abortion? We have homosexual ‘marriage,’ and we have genocides in the world? We have all sorts of problems, but the thing is, we have CHOICES AND FREEDOM. I’d rather CHOOSE to be a Catholic anyday than be forced at the point of a sword as was the case with kings like Clovis and Charlemagne. Those guys were renowned for spreading Christianity with violence and beheadings. We Catholics love to romanticize the Medievel age because the entire Western world was Catholic. I hear ya, it would be nice to see a unified Christianity in the West like one would see back then. But the price is too high for me. Father Groeschel says that Catholicism is best when it is persecuted because the real believers shine and fight for their faith, are strengthened by their faith, and are willing to die for it while the phony Catholics and cafeteria folks run for the hills.
I’m not saying that democracy should be the way of the Catholic Church but it is the protestant thinking of individual freedom and Luther’s writings that yielded the open, free, choice-driven democracies we have. Instead of converts with a sword, we convert through EWTN, Catholic Answers Forums, testimony to friends, prayer, and faith.
Do I think we should VOTE what we want God to be? No way. That’s why I’m Catholic. I actually wish we’d STOP so much meddling in the Mass each day by lay folks. I wish we could go back to Latin, have only communion on the TONGUE, and have NO Eucharistic ministers/helpers!! But I think there needs to be more laity involved in other ministries and it wouldn’t bother me if the churches had vestries similar to Anglicanism where the ‘folks’ could make some administrative decisions about NON-theological issues around their local parishes.
The Protestant Reformation was a blessing and a curse. It was a rough blow to Catholicism. As a result, Trent happened and the Church cleaned up its act.
The problem with Catholicism is there is very little oversight. Molesters had free reign for too long because of crooked bishops covering their tracks. Maybe we need more transparency and it wouldn’t bother me if we were just a bit less top-heavy at times.
God Bless, Jimmy
P
Peter_J
Guest
Hi gurney,
You make some great points. Just two things I’d like to mention.
First when you say
You make some great points. Just two things I’d like to mention.
First when you say
I think you’re actually describing a very some minority of Catholics.
I think that, in most of those cases, the bishops were well-intentioned, even if they in fact handled things badly. In other words, those bishops were basically good people, not “crooked”.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
What area of Catholic theology are you referring to? Since the basics of Christianity are taught by Catholicism, I would argue that much of it is airtight. Some or much of it isn’t.
I
inchrist101
Guest
Yet another meaningless post from Jimmy B. Jimmy you have such a thing for Luther. If you are so confident in your faith then why write so much about Luther 
It’s really getting old. Matter of fact the horse stopped screaming years ago so stop beating it.
It’s really getting old. Matter of fact the horse stopped screaming years ago so stop beating it.
R
reen12
Guest
I appreciate your reply, TriuneUnity.Thank you.
Exsuge Domine is irrelevant, in matters of faith.
One must needs accept the CC as infallible teacher -
for the document to have ‘standing.’
The other point being: the canons of logic state that one is
not to be called upon - to defend a negative.
One is solely called upon, in this realm - to defend a positive = an assertion.
'Luther was in error."
“Your Thoughts” - on *Exsurge Domine *were invited.
Effort must be extended - by the one making an assertion -
much further ‘upstream,’ doctrinally - before any later document
may be proferred for consideration… in the sense that others are
then called upon, to ‘refute’ material in same.
Based on what you are saying, TriuneUnity, I may actually be correct -
that a ‘quiet Reformation’ is taking place, guided by
the sensum fidei, where doctrine changes not,
yet practice does - relegating much of doctrine to both
obscurity and irrelevance.
We see this in the ‘neglect’ of the sacrament of reconcilitation,
in the simple dismissal of the assertion that the priest
is ‘mediator,’ as one turns back to God in repentance.
[the *teshuva.]
‘Logic’ created Limbo. Said not to be an ‘official’
teaching of the Church, it was taught, with rigor,
nonetheless. Happily, this ‘non-official’ teaching is
still available to be viewed. [Even the CCC conveys
an ‘urgency’ that is interesting to note.]
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
The final paragraph has not a dull word in it.
Thanks again, TriuneUnity.
reen12
Exsuge Domine is irrelevant, in matters of faith.
One must needs accept the CC as infallible teacher -
for the document to have ‘standing.’
The other point being: the canons of logic state that one is
not to be called upon - to defend a negative.
One is solely called upon, in this realm - to defend a positive = an assertion.
'Luther was in error."
“Your Thoughts” - on *Exsurge Domine *were invited.
Effort must be extended - by the one making an assertion -
much further ‘upstream,’ doctrinally - before any later document
may be proferred for consideration… in the sense that others are
then called upon, to ‘refute’ material in same.
Based on what you are saying, TriuneUnity, I may actually be correct -
that a ‘quiet Reformation’ is taking place, guided by
the sensum fidei, where doctrine changes not,
yet practice does - relegating much of doctrine to both
obscurity and irrelevance.
We see this in the ‘neglect’ of the sacrament of reconcilitation,
in the simple dismissal of the assertion that the priest
is ‘mediator,’ as one turns back to God in repentance.
[the *teshuva.]
‘Logic’ created Limbo. Said not to be an ‘official’
teaching of the Church, it was taught, with rigor,
nonetheless. Happily, this ‘non-official’ teaching is
still available to be viewed. [Even the CCC conveys
an ‘urgency’ that is interesting to note.]
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
The final paragraph has not a dull word in it.
Thanks again, TriuneUnity.
reen12
- Status