Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[Apologia100]

Another thread regarding saints outside the Church spurned me to start this thread. The topic is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, or “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.

With regard to option 2 of the poll, water baptism with Catholic intent.

 

[Jenlyn]

When you say baptized, baptized by who?

What about those who convert on their deathbed?

 

[Michael_C]

The Cathecism says you do not have to be Catholic to go to heaven. All you Catholics out there don’t go anywhere, it’s a technicallity.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Famous last words: you don’t have to

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH****

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

IV. HELL** **

[1033](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1033.htm’) We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

[1035](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1035.htm’) The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[tru_dvotion]

[1036](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1036.htm’) The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

[1037](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1037.htm’) God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

 

[SPOKENWORD]

cc169. Salvation comes from God ALONE. The church is not the author of our salvation.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I did not vote. On the philosophical level I agree, any baptized person in the sate of grace can enter heaven. Any would include non-Catholics of course. But show me a man or woman living out a life WITHOUT MORTAL sin on their souls? No such animal exists my friends! Wake up! This is DEADLY serious. This is our faith, this is our Catechism, it bears the seal of the II Vatican Council and the name of John Paul II is on its front page.

 

[beng]

Lets examine the options given

Full membership within the Roman Catholic church before death is necessary for salvation
This is correct. Not partial but FULL

One must be baptised before judgment to be considered for Heaven.
This is incorrect because not all baptized people are united FULLY with the Catholic Church which is the only body of Christ

The Church includes some that don’t claim membership
This is incorect. A quick look at Mystici Corporis, Humani Generis, Satis Cognitum, Ott’s Fundamental of Catholic will clarify this easily.

The Church must exist for those of “good will” to be able to get to Heaven. The phrase is therefore best interpreted as "without the church there is no salvation"
Good will is such a vague meaning. Therefore this option is not feasible.

 

[Apologia100]

Well, thanks for identifying yourself as a Feyeenite. That was easy.

beng:

Lets examine the options given

Full membership within the Roman Catholic church before death is necessary for salvation
This is correct. Not partial but FULL

One must be baptised before judgment to be considered for Heaven.
This is incorrect because not all baptized people are united FULLY with the Catholic Church which is the only body of Christ

The Church includes some that don’t claim membership
This is incorect. A quick look at Mystici Corporis, Humani Generis, Satis Cognitum, Ott’s Fundamental of Catholic will clarify this easily.

The Church must exist for those of “good will” to be able to get to Heaven. The phrase is therefore best interpreted as "without the church there is no salvation"
Good will is such a vague meaning. Therefore this option is not feasible.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

cc169. Salvation comes from God ALONE. The church is not the author of our salvation.

First of all, that red bolded sentence is never in the CCC.

Second of all, the Catholic Church IS the body of Christ:

**His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Apostolic Exhortation
Evangelii Nuntiandi
On Evangelization in the Modern World
December 8, 1975

“Not without sorrow can we hear people continually claiming to love Christ but without the Church; to listen to Christ but not to the Church; to belong to Christ but outside of the Church. the absurdity of this dichotomy is clearly evident in this phrase of the Gospel: ‘Anyone who rejects you, rejects me’.” **

 

[beng]

More

**MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI **ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON THE MISTICAL BODY OF CHRIST

1. If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church [12] - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the _expression “the Mystical Body of Christ” - an _expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers.
2. That the Church is a body is frequently asserted in the Sacred Scriptures. “Christ,” says the Apostle, “is the Head of the Body of the Church.”[13] If the Church is a body, it must be an unbroken unity, according to those words of Paul: “Though many we are one body in Christ.”[14] But it is not enough that the Body of the Church should be an unbroken unity; it must also be something definite and perceptible to the senses as Our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, in his Encyclical Satis Cognitum asserts: "the Church is visible because she is a body.[15] Hence they err in a matter of divine truth, who imagine the Church to be invisible, intangible, a something merely “pneumatological” as they say, by which many Christian communities, though they differ from each other in their profession of faith, are untied by an invisible bond.

After the above encyclicals some liberal still try to demean the teaching of the Church. So Pius XII came down hard on them again.

HUMANI GENERIS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII

1. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, **which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.
2. These and like errors, it is clear, have crept in among certain of Our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science. To them We are compelled with grief to repeat once again truths already well known, and to point out with solicitude clear errors and dangers of error.**

 

[beng]

Apologia100:

Well, thanks for identifying yourself as a Feyeenite. That was easy.

Which part makes me a Feeyenite?

Do you even know Feyenite position?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Requote. CCC169 And not in the church as if she were the author of our salvation.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Requote. CCC169 And not in the church as if she were the author of our salvation.

Of course the Church is not the author. Yet the merit of salvation is given fully to the Church.

Read Paul VI’s word.

 

[pnewton]

Jenlyn:

When you say baptized, baptized by who?

What about those who convert on their deathbed?

Or while being crucified next to Christ?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

Of course the Church is not the author. Yet the merit of salvation is given fully to the Church.

Read Paul VI’s word.

So what part of this statement do you not understand? Salvation comes from God ALONE.

 

[pnewton]

**819 **“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.

The Catechism is a sure norm for understanding the Catholic faith.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

So what part of this statement do you not understand? Salvation comes from God ALONE.

Here’s a question:

Can a person be saved by Christ and not through the Church?

 

[beng]

pnewton:

Originally Posted by CCC
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.

The Catechism is a sure norm for understanding the Catholic faith.

Element of sanctification and truth does not saved. It only compels people to unity with the Catholic Church.

 

[pnewton]

And again

[818](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/818.htm’) "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272