Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

This is a mute argument. The Precious Blood of Christ is only available through the office of licitly ordained priest and not through one’s creative imagination.

There you go again playing God.I see, Jesus shed His blood for RCC members only.Interesting? Talk about imagination !!

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

There you go again playing God.I see, Jesus shed His blood for RCC members only.Interesting? Talk about imagination !!

He wrote “only available”

 

[Mamamull]

tru_dvotion:

I did not vote. On the philosophical level I agree, any baptized person in the sate of grace can enter heaven. Any would include non-Catholics of course. But show me a man or woman living out a life WITHOUT MORTAL sin on their souls? No such animal exists my friends! Wake up! This is DEADLY serious. This is our faith, this is our Catechism, it bears the seal of the II Vatican Council and the name of John Paul II is on its front page.

There is invincible ignorance. Mortal sin on a soul that doesn’t understand or wasn’t taught properly.

I cringe when I look back at where my faith life used to be. I thought I was a devout Catholic. I was active in the Mass in my parish. Except, I had the Barney (big purple kiddie dinosaur) Catechism - “I love you. You love me. We’re a happy family.”

I converted in 1986 and didn’t know diddly squat about a faith I thought I loved. Thank God for Mother Angelica and EWTN, I wouldn’t have found Catholic Answers or Fr. Corapi or any of the wonderful opportunities to learn my faith.

I was ingorant – I see so many wasted years, but now I am doing my best. I always remember a Fr. Mitch Pacwa, when asked about the judgement who would make it to heaven, “I am just in sales, not management.”

We aren’t even in sales – so we don’t have to worry. Seriously, we can quote rules, but you know, Jesus is a contradiction to the human heart. We just can’t understand the fullness of His mercy and love for us.
It is my job to see that I do my best to get to heaven through Christ’s love and mercy. I also have to help my family members do the same, but I don’t have to worry about the rest of world, save in my prayers.

 

[tru_dvotion]

There is invincible ignorance. Mortal sin on a soul that doesn’t understand or wasn’t taught properly.

Not kind and certainly not correct:

1. I disagree with your post, but I would never call you ignorant.
2. Even children before the age of reason are aware between right and wrong. Adults most certainly are aware when they injure others. There is a moral law, there are the 10 Commandments and anyone with half a brain will understand that lying, stealing, coveting etc are mortal sins. Amazingly large percentages of good people fail on these accounts.

 

[pnewton]

tru_dvotion:

… and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church" does not exempt them from any of the rules of the Church. … I see no exemption from the responsibility living their life and concluding it in the of grace. Do you?

Yes, they are exempt from some of the rules of the Catholic Church. For example, non-Catholics do not follow the Catholic form of marriage. They do not have to (and are forbidden) to receive the Eucharist once a year. Many of the laws of the Church do not extend past the visible membership

On a different level, there is no moral examption. In this you are correct that just to claim one is once saved always saved does not make it so. However mortal sin requires full knowledge of the nature of the sin. Sins like murder and adultery are obvious. Less obvious mortal sins (like contraception) may not be taught to these Christian brothers by their pastors.

In the end, our non-Catholic brothers will enter heaven for the same reason Catholics will, because they are in a state of grace.

 

[beng]

On a different level, there is no moral examption. In this you are correct that just to claim one is once saved always saved does not make it so. However mortal sin requires full knowledge of the nature of the sin. Sins like murder and adultery are obvious. Less obvious mortal sins (like contraception) may not be taught to these Christian brothers by their pastors.

It depends. You can not just brush off mortal sin by saying, “my pastor didn’t tell me”. God endowed us with reason. We also have written laws in our heart (somewhere in Paul’s letter). If we just brush off contraception and choose to ignore the sound of their conscience (which probably telling them to learn more about it) then they could be culpable.

In the end, our non-Catholic brothers will enter heaven for the same reason Catholics will, because they are in a state of grace.

Well, they would have to be a Catholic to be in the state of Grace.

But you’re right, they would enter Heaven because of the same reason Catholics enter Heaven. Taht we are Catholic and we do not die in the state of mortal sin.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

He wrote “only available”

SHE. Good Mourning Beng. Let the Day begin.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

pnewton:

Yes, they are exempt from some of the rules of the Catholic Church. For example, non-Catholics do not follow the Catholic form of marriage. They do not have to (and are forbidden) to receive the Eucharist once a year. Many of the laws of the Church do not extend past the visible membership

On a different level, there is no moral examption. In this you are correct that just to claim one is once saved always saved does not make it so. However mortal sin requires full knowledge of the nature of the sin. Sins like murder and adultery are obvious. Less obvious mortal sins (like contraception) may not be taught to these Christian brothers by their pastors.

In the end, our non-Catholic brothers will enter heaven for the same reason Catholics will, because they are in a state of grace.

Im glad to see that some of my brothers and sisters see the lite.

 

[beng]

pnewton:

Yes, they are exempt from some of the rules of the Catholic Church. For example, non-Catholics do not follow the Catholic form of marriage. They do not have to (and are forbidden) to receive the Eucharist once a year. Many of the laws of the Church do not extend past the visible membership

Oh, btw, they will not be exempted by all rules

They will still need to be baptized to enter the Church. They would also need to do good and not die in mortal sin.

 

[tru_dvotion]

And speaking of Billy Graham… he is particularly well aware what the Catholic Church teaches about mortal sin. He is no ignorant puppy and cannot claim NOT knowing. Yet he persists in his heresies. Worse, he propagates them to millions of people.

 

[pnewton]

Two extremes need to be avoided. On one hand the church has never presumed to declare any individual as being not saved. What constitues invincible ignorance is a matter left only to God. Just as the issue of what happens to unbaptized infants has no clear teaching, so can we not presume to know “the ways known only to God.”

On the other hand, how can we, if we are truly charitable, not want everyone to know the bride of Christ in the fullest sense, to have all seven sacraments and to have that unique grace that comes only His body and blood. The uncertainty around the hope that souls have outside the visible Catholic Church cuts both ways. We can not presume to know how much more difficult or the degree of possibility of salvation apart from the sacramental life.

Finally, despite all, we trust in a gracious, merciful and just God.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

And speaking of Billy Graham… he is particularly well aware what the Catholic Church teaches about mortal sin. He is no ignorant puppy and cannot claim NOT knowing. Yet he persists in his heresies. Worse, he propagates them to millions of people.

Tru, No one is speaking of Billy Graham on this thread,only you.

 

[beng]

pnewton:

Two extremes need to be avoided. On one hand the church has never presumed to declare any individual as being not saved. What constitues invincible ignorance is a matter left only to God. Just as the issue of what happens to unbaptized infants has no clear teaching, so can we not presume to know “the ways known only to God.”

We can not really say who is invincible ignorance. I myself on the other hand are clearly NOT invincible Ignorance.

And we do know the way to God. because it has been revealed to us.

On the other hand, how can we, if we are truly charitable, not want everyone to know the bride of Christ in the fullest sense, to have all seven sacraments and to have that unique grace that comes only His body and blood. The uncertainty around the hope that souls have outside the visible Catholic Church cuts both ways. We can not presume to know how much more difficult or the degree of possibility of salvation apart from the sacramental life.

We can not be overzealous for the sous of those who are not Catholic while demean the dogma of the Church. This is what Pius XII has warned

HUMANI GENERIS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII

1. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.
2. These and like errors, it is clear, have crept in among certain of Our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science. To them We are compelled with grief to repeat once again truths already well known, and to point out with solicitude clear errors and dangers of error.

Finally, despite all, we trust in a gracious, merciful and just God.

Of course. While not trying to demean the teaching of the Church.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Tru, No one is speaking of Billy Graham on this thread,only you.

Actually, it was you who brought up Billy Graham as some sort of person for us to emulate. I disagreed, because he is a heretic. Do not believe me, check it out: find out for yourself what heresy is and what actions make a heretic and what condemnations are meted out by the Church for persistent heresy according to Catholic Dogma. When you do, you will have to agree, Billy Graham is a heretic according to Catholic Dogma. If you do not wish to discuss Billy Graham? Well… don’t discuss him!

 

[pnewton]

beng:

And we do know the way to God. because it has been revealed to us.

Some has been revealed to us. The Catholic faith is a sure foundation and the normative means of salvation. Not all of the mind of God has been revealed to us yet. (as in the case of unbaptized infants). So if there may be one thing outside the normative means of salvation, then we admit our knowledge is limited.

And yes, we must be zealous fo the faith, but for the sake of souls, we must also be wise.

 

[beng]

pnewton:

Some has been revealed to us. The Catholic faith is a sure foundation and the normative means of salvation. Not all of the mind of God has been revealed to us yet. (as in the case of unbaptized infants). So if there may be one thing outside the normative means of salvation, then we admit our knowledge is limited.

If there’s another way for salvation that would make null Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. And God can not defy Himself.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Two extremes need to be avoided. On one hand the church has never presumed to declare any individual as being not saved. What constitues invincible ignorance is a matter left only to God. Just as the issue of what happens to unbaptized infants has no clear teaching, so can we not presume to know “the ways known only to God.”
On the other hand, how can we, if we are truly charitable, not want everyone to know the bride of Christ in the fullest sense, to have all seven sacraments and to have that unique grace that comes only His body and blood. The uncertainty around the hope that souls have outside the visible Catholic Church cuts both ways. We can not presume to know how much more difficult or the degree of possibility of salvation apart from the sacramental life.

Finally, despite all, we trust in a gracious, merciful and just God.

I fully agree with you. We do not know and perhaps nobody else will know in this life what transpires between a creature and God before death. Nor are we of full knowledge what other mercies the Almighty has in store for our fellow creatures. But I do believe, we first and foremost have to abide by the indisputable teachings of the Church. I am referring to Catholic Dogma and not to some friendly papal address. We must look to those parts of our faith, which are not open for discussion or alteration. I believe we do GREAT DISSERVICE to those, who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church if we fail to warn them and if we adopt the humanist approach… God is love… you are all right, I am all right, we all are all right and we all are destined to go to heaven. WRONG! God is also a judge; a merciful judge, but nevertheless a judge. We should all be trembling in our boots for not measuring up rather than looking for ways to water down the truth in false charity.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

beng:

Oh, btw, they will not be exempted by all rules

They will still need to be baptized to enter the Church. They would also need to do good and not die in mortal sin.

Beng,

The desire for baptism is efficacious toward the forgiveness of sin. Also, a grave sin, to be mortal, requires full advertence and perfect willfulness. A protestant or non-Christian of “good faith” may indeed desire baptism, at least implicitly, and live their lives in “good faith.”

Good faith is defined for us ( CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Good****Faith ) as “the mental and moral state of honest, even if objectively unfounded, conviction as to the truth or falsehood of a proposition or body of opinion … One who is in this condition, so far as the violation of positive law, or even, in certain junctures, of the natural law, is concerned, is said to labour under an invincible error, and hence to be guiltless”

So, all sin is remitted by the desire, at least implicit, for baptism. And, an objectively grave sin may not be mortal if full advertence is lacking. There’s a difference between formal sin and material sin. All non-Christians, heretics and schismatics commit material sin, but not all are necessarily guitly of formal sin.

The Catholic Church teaches that those who desire baptism at least implicitly, and live their lives in good faith, may attain eternal life. This is possible. They make no claims to it being probable, or to it being definite. One wouldn’t expect as much, as the Church does not teach the eternal security of Catholics, let alone non-Catholics.

With all the means of Divien grace given through the Catholic Church, one is certainly better equipped toward sustaining their faith, toward receiving the gift of final perseverance than those not so well-equipped. However, a Catholic is not guaranteed heaven, and a non-Catholics is not guaranteed hell.

 

[FelixBlue]

beng:

I read wrong. “You said people of good will”

Now, I entered the Church through baptism and I may enter the kingdom of Heaven if I die not in the state of mortal sin. How is these Hidus etc enter the Church? what do you mean by “implicitly entered into the salvation of the Church”?

I use as a backdrop to my argument the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate. In it, after a brief discussion of Hinduism and Buddhism, the document states:

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is TRUE and holy in these religions.”

Then, it goes on to address Muslims and Jews (and implies the same statement above is true of these two religions).

So here’s my argument:

1. Truth is one (the old principle of non-contradiction)
2. Jesus Christ is the fullness of Truth (John 14:6)
3. According to the Church, other religions contain at least some truth.
4. Since truth is one, it follows that other religions, in some way, contain at least some presence of Jesus Christ.
5. Thus, a follower of another religion has at least some contact with Christ (and implicitly his Church, as it is his body).

I understand a person of good will to be a person who responds to and acts upon the truth he possesses. To do this, following the above, is to respond to Christ to the extent that he is able.

Thus, a Hindu, etc., can be saved by responding to the truth found in his religion (which is really responding to Christ and therefore grace). Note: the Hindu is not saved by Hinduism (which is a mixture of truth and error); he is saved by Christ and the Church.

You are right to say that the ordinary means of entering the Church is through baptism. I argue that the extraordinary or implicit way would be by responding to and acting upon the truth (Christ) one knows.

btw, this does not excuse us from the responsibility to evangelize. Just as Christ came to bring fullness of life, we too are called to bring the same (fullness of truth) to others.

As for the Atheist, this gets a bit tricky…I’m assuming there are many athiests who have a false idea of God and therefore reject a sham idea of God rather than the true God.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Pope St. Pius X:

**Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? **

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

(Catechism of Pius X, The Ninth Article of the Creed, Q. 29)