J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
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John_Higgins
Guest
Heresy. That is if you mean that you have to be a Mass-going rosary-saying “card-carrying” Catholic to go to heaven. That clearly flies in the face of Church teaching.
Go send Unam Sanctam back to the Fourteenth Century where it belongs. It was dealing with a political issue anyway. Beng, Father Feeney was wrong and so are you. Triumphalism has no place in the Catholic Church; it is a classic example of the sin of pride.
John
B
beng
Guest
Realize this. To enter Heaven ONE MUST BE CATHOLIC!! This is a must. People who are invincible ignorance and a member of the elect WILL be JOINNED in the Catholic Church most likely at the last nano second of their life.
It’s possible.
- Mass can be offered to non-Catholics.
- NO ONE knows the state of someone soul in the last second of his death. If somehow, someway he’s joinned with the Church at the last nano second of his life he can be saved.
It’s the teaching of the Church since the Church started (John 8:24; 10:16, 26-8. Acts 2:4,6-7 13:46-8).
It’s unthinkable that you could think that the dogma of the faith is proclaim to scare the reformer. That is not how a dogma works.
First of all
Everyone has been given sufficient grace for salvation. Meaning that the grace is sufficient for them to convert to the Catholic Church and not die in a state of mortal sin. This is De Fide
Second of all
God is love, but he’s also a just judge. Both are non-contradictory.
Third of all
God has revealed the way to salvation to the Church.
Fourth of all
If anyone do not heed than the judgment will be just.
I personally do not know what the state of your mother is. But the dogma stands true. HOPEFULLY, since she’s not Catholic, she would be miraculously joinned to the Church at the end of her life (something that is, I would think, very uncommon but not impossible). That would be the only way she could enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If that does not happen and if she refuses the miraculous occurance and wish to stay Protestant, then she could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
B
beng
Guest
John Higgins:
I even doubt you even know EXACTLY what Fr Feeney position is.
Re-read
Dogma has no expiration date
The last sentence of Unam sanctam is about faith not about politic.
Fr Feeney and I do not hold to the same postion.
I even doubt you even know EXACTLY what Fr Feeney position is.
It’s not triumphalism. It’s the constant teaching of the Church cheapen by modernist, indifferentist and liberal. Pius XII already warned us in Humani Generis (Par 27-28)
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
No, what you speak of here is wrong at best and heresy at worst. The Pope, who alone holds the mandate to bind and loose, and the Magisterium through which he teaches, and the CCC, which he promulgated,all teach something different. No one, including the Pope, believes as you do, except some of the extreme radical right, such as Mel Gibson’s father (adding further to my irritation with people who think they’re more Catholic than the Pope) and the SSPX. God bless you.
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beng
Guest
Do you even understand the Catholic faith?
All Popes during and after Vatican II
Pope John XXIII
“How beautiful is the Church of Christ, the ‘fold of the sheep!’ Into this fold of Jesus Christ no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff, and only if they be united to him can men be saved.”
“Outside the true Catholic Faith no one can be saved, so help me God!”
**Pope Paul VI **
“Is the hierarchy perhaps free to teach what they find most to their liking on matters of religion, or what they expect will be most pleasing to the proponents of certain current views opposed to all doctrine? Certainly not! The prime duty of the episcopate is to transmit strictly and faithfully the original message of Christ, the sum total of the truths which He revealed and confided to the Apostles as necessary for salvation.”
“The means of salvation and sanctification are known by all men, and are necessary to everyone who wishes to be saved.”
“Not without sorrow can we hear people continually claiming to love Christ but without the Church; to listen to Christ but not to the Church; to belong to Christ but outside of the Church. the absurdity of this dichotomy is clearly evident in this phrase of the Gospel: ‘Anyone who rejects you, rejects me’.”
**Pope John Paul I **
“Jesus and the Church are the same thing; indissoluble, inseparable. Christ and the Church are only one thing. It is not possible to say: I believe in Jesus, I accept Jesus, but I do not accept the Church.”
“The ship of the Church is guided by Christ and by His Vicar… It alone carries the disciples and receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea, but outside one would perish immediately. Salvation is only in the Church; outside it one perishes.”
**Pope John Paul II **
“As a sacrament of intimate union with God, the Church is in Christ, outside whom there is no salvation.”
“**The mystery of salvation **is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from this genuine and single source, like ‘humble, useful, precious and chaste’ water it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the Faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious of and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth contained in the phrase consecrated by tradition: there is no salvation outside the Church. From Her alone there flows surely and fully the life giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.”
“We are the guardians of something given, and given to the Church universal; something which is not the result of reflection, however competent, on cultural and social questions of the day, and is not merely the best path among many, but the one and only path to salvation.”
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Yes, I understand the Catholic faith as it pertains to this: Read CCC 838. “Certain, though imperfect.”
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John_Higgins
Guest
I’ve gone to websites with plenty of it. I will not link to them, but they’re easily found.
Father Feeney’s position and that of the EENS rigorists is simply irrelevant. It’s not Church teaching. Pulling one sentence out of a 700 year old papal bull written about something else does not make Church dogma.
If you differ from the Feeneyite position, state how.
John
B
beng
Guest
The minimal requirement for salvation is perfect communion.
B
beng
Guest
John Higgins:
Humor me. Let’s see if you know what you’re talking about.
Sorry, that is the dogma of the Church. How old it is doesn’t matter. Dogma has no expiration date.
Let me read your understanding of Feeyenite first.
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John_Higgins
Guest
Where’s it say that?
John
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Do you HAVE a copy of the catechism?
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beng
Guest
John Higgins:
“It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed [his] blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)
The 17th Ecumenical council of Florence.
“It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed [his] blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)
B
beng
Guest
Yes.
And you can get CCC online anywho.
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Dogmas do not change.
No one has the authority to change them, not even the Pope.
Here are some links for reference:
Cathecism of the Catholic Church:
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
Dogmas of the Catholic Church:
theworkofgod.org/Church.htm
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.cfm
No one has the authority to change them, not even the Pope.
Here are some links for reference:
Cathecism of the Catholic Church:
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
Dogmas of the Catholic Church:
theworkofgod.org/Church.htm
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.cfm
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pnewton
Guest
I have tried to avoid mentioning that so many of the quotes thrown out by beng are begging the question, but the last several posts were so obvious I must point it out. Of course we are discussing extra ecclesiam nulla salus. We are looking at the meaning of it, not the continual restatement by various popes.
One thing that it can not mean is that one must be on the role in a Catholic parich to be saved. Another thing is that in ways known only to God, others might be saved.
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.“338”
So if some things are known only to God, where does this “nanosecond” theory of beng’s arise.
When someone is wanting to argue the unknowable, they do so for the sake af arguement, not knowledge.
One thing that it can not mean is that one must be on the role in a Catholic parich to be saved. Another thing is that in ways known only to God, others might be saved.
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.“338”
So if some things are known only to God, where does this “nanosecond” theory of beng’s arise.
When someone is wanting to argue the unknowable, they do so for the sake af arguement, not knowledge.
B
beng
Guest
Which ones are begging the question. Point it out.
The meaning is clear. “Outside the Church There’s No Salvation”
Why do people keep looking for a loophple is beyond belief to me.
I never even said that.
In what ways? God has revealed the way (singular). He can not defy Himself.
Notice the “may”.
Furthermore, this is talking about invincible ignorance. How are these invincible ignorancts enter Heaven, of course by being joinned to the Catholic Church somehow someway. It must involved Baptism because it’s a necessity of means and necessity of precept.
Same as above.
From reasoning.
- One must be joinned to the Church in order to enter Heaven. Period.
- There could be (not sure) the elects who are not a card carrying member of the Catholic Church)
- Until in their deathbed (before their death), these elects are not a card carrying member of the Church
No. we use reason. Whcih is a give from God. And apply correctly, reason can never be wrong (I think this is infallible).
P
pnewton
Guest
This response and your syllogism posted after your re-quote from the Catechism “*ways known to himself (God).” *From reasoning you (beng) can know things known only to God. This perspective is at the core of your certitude in these posts and perhaps explains the need to go beyond the teaching of the church to explain what this teaching really means. You may not consider yourself argumentative, but in this, as in other areas. you hold a unique perspective.
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beng
Guest
My perspective is nothing but the Church teaching. The teaching simply means what it says. You can not turn EENS into a meaningless formula. You can not somehow say "There’s no salvation outside the Church, except for those who are saved outside the Church".
And when did I know things that are known only to God?
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Catholic Dogma cannot be approached the same way as we approach the Scriptures. There are no parables; we are not dealing with the interpretation of layers and layers of truth. Dogma is truth, and truth has only one explanation. There are no shades or degrees of truth. Any variation is untruth. What pnewton is proposing is following the current trend of religious humanism. Of course from that perspective, everything is just somebody’s point of view. To the humanist, every other view, other than his own, is just a fallacy.
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