Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[pnewton]

beng:

If there’s another way for salvation that would make null Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. And God can not defy Himself.

The logic and application of this phrase is what is under discussion. The salvation of Abraham and St. John the Baptist (a non-Catholic) does not nullify extra ecclesiam nulla salus and yet in their salvation God is not contradicting himself.

PS- an excellent quote, itsjustdave1988.

 

[beng]

itsjustdave1988:

Beng,

The desire for baptism is efficacious toward the forgiveness of sin.

Newadvent.org “Baptism” entry:

The council does not mean by votum a simple desire of receiving baptism or even a resolution to do so. It means by votum an act of perfect charity or contrition, including, at least implicitly, the will to do all things necessary for salvation and thus especially to receive baptism,

Also, a grave sin, to be mortal, requires full advertence and perfect willfulness.

What do you mean by FULL advertence and PERFECT willfullness. I don’t need to to FULLY know the consequence of my sin to be culpable of said sin.

A protestant or non-Christian of “good faith” may indeed desire baptism, at least implicitly, and live their lives in “good faith.”

Refer to the definiation of “desire” with regard to Baptism of desire.

Good faith is defined for us ( CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Good Faith ) as “the mental and moral state of honest, even if objectively unfounded, conviction as to the truth or falsehood of a proposition or body of opinion … One who is in this condition, so far as the violation of positive law, or even, in certain junctures, of the natural law, is concerned, is said to labour under an invincible error, and hence to be guiltless”

So, all sin is remitted by the desire, at least implicit, for baptism.

The desire MUST fit the definition as meant by the Council of Trent (see the new advent definition on “in Votum”. And like any other Baptism, the Baptism of desire only remit sin ONCE and if he/she commit subsequent sin he/she would need to have perfect contrition (since we’re talking about non-Catholic.

And, an objectively grave sin may not be mortal if full advertence is lacking. There’s a difference between formal sin and material sin. All non-Christians, heretics and schismatics commit material sin, but not all are necessarily guitly of formal sin.

Define Material sin and formal sin. I think your understanding is off.

The Catholic Church teaches that those who desire baptism at least implicitly, and live their lives in good faith, may attain eternal life. This is possible. They make no claims to it being probable, or to it being definite. One wouldn’t expect as much, as the Church does not teach the eternal security of Catholics, let alone non-Catholics.

Again, not to cheapen the meaning of “desire” one need to look what the Church really meant by saying “desire”.

However, a Catholic is not guaranteed heaven, and a non-Catholics is not guaranteed hell.

A Catholic may not guaranteed one to Heaven but a non-Catholic is always guaranteed hell. The only way non-Catholic can enter Heaven is that if he/she is joined with the Catholic Church at which point they would cease being a non-Catholic. And even then they need to be freed from mortal sin just like Catholic.

 

[beng]

FelixBlue:

I use as a backdrop to my argument the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate. In it, after a brief discussion of Hinduism and Buddhism, the document states:

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is TRUE and holy in these religions.”

That sentence just mean that they have “elemnt of truth” a far cry from true salvation.

Then, it goes on to address Muslims and Jews (and implies the same statement above is true of these two religions).

So here’s my argument:

1. Truth is one (the old principle of non-contradiction)
2. Jesus Christ is the fullness of Truth (John 14:6)
3. According to the Church, other religions contain at least some truth.
4. Since truth is one, it follows that other religions, in some way, contain at least some presence of Jesus Christ.
5. Thus, a follower of another religion has at least some contact with Christ (and implicitly his Church, as it is his body).

I understand a person of good will to be a person who responds to and acts upon the truth he possesses. To do this, following the above, is to respond to Christ to the extent that he is able.

Thus, a Hindu, etc., can be saved by responding to the truth found in his religion (which is really responding to Christ and therefore grace). Note: the Hindu is not saved by Hinduism (which is a mixture of truth and error); he is saved by Christ and the Church.

That reasoning is wrong. One need to embrace the FULL truth. Not partial. That is why the Church even consider that sacrament will not even benefitted schismatic like Orthodox. If we treat Orthodox as such then how can we even think that Muslim, Hindu etc can be saved following their own religion. That is very erroneous.

All the element of truth found in many religion only compells them to unity with the Catholic Church. When they have united that’s when they will be saved. They can not be saved as Hindu etc.

You are right to say that the ordinary means of entering the Church is through baptism. I argue that the extraordinary or implicit way would be by responding to and acting upon the truth (Christ) one knows.

The Church has revealed that the way to enter it is through baptism. I could flood you with many verses and comment how baptism is necessary. But suffice to say that the ONLY way to enter the Church is Baptism. Now, this is a truth reveal and protected by the Holy Spirit. There can be no other truth. If you say that one can enter the Church via other means than the dogma will become null and God would have defied Himself.

As for the Atheist, this gets a bit tricky…I’m assuming there are many athiests who have a false idea of God and therefore reject a sham idea of God rather than the true God.

Atheist reject God. I think they are lost.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

A Catholic may not guaranteed one to Heaven but a non-Catholic is always guaranteed hell. The only way non-Catholic can enter Heaven is that if he/she is joined with the Catholic Church at which point they would cease being a non-Catholic. And even then they need to be freed from mortal sin just like Catholic. Ok, Beng there you go again playing God. How does it feel? At this rate your going to have trouble coming up onto the finish line.

 

[beng]

pnewton:

The logic and application of this phrase is what is under discussion. The salvation of Abraham and St. John the Baptist (a non-Catholic) does not nullify extra ecclesiam nulla salus and yet in their salvation God is not contradicting himself.

PS- an excellent quote, itsjustdave1988.

Abraham is a full fledge Catholic and so is John the Baptist. Jesus evangelize them in Sheol when He descended into Hell.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Ok, Beng there you go again playing God. How does it feel? At this rate your going to have trouble coming into the finish line.

If you want to address me, use quoation from sources.

I’m tired of your substanceless respond.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

If you want to address me, use quoation from sources.

I’m tired of your substanceless respond.

Beng, Its so hard to hit that ignore button isnt it. :D

 

[pnewton]

beng:

Abraham is a full fledge Catholic and so is John the Baptist. Jesus evangelize them in Sheol when He descended into Hell.

So one can be Catholic without any formal relationship with the Church, until after death, of course. This theory is one that has been proposed to explain the fate of unbaptized infants also.

 

[beng]

pnewton:

So one can be Catholic without any formal relationship with the Church, until after death, of course. This theory is one that has been proposed to explain the fate of unbaptized infants also.

No. Jesus only descends into Hell ONCE and no more.

And Limbus Infantium (also part of hell) doesn’t mean that those baby will ge evangelize there and eventually enter Heaven. The babies will stay in Limbus infantium experiencing no torment and perfect natural goodness. Of course this is speculation that’s even not in the CCC.

 

[pnewton]

beng:

No. Jesus only descends into Hell ONCE and no more.
.

I did not say Jesus would descend again into hell. The theory has been put forth that infants would have a chance to choose Jesus and his church after or at the time of death. It is only specutaltion, as is limbo.

The point is that you have Abraham becoming a Catholic after his death, which has him saved without being Catholic alive. Of course the idea that these pre-church saints were Catholic before the Catholic Church exists is a absurd. This is why the statement under discussion must be taken in context and not as the absolute that some try to spin it.

PS - Jesus did not descend into hell. This is a poor translation as I am sure someone with your knowledge knows. I only mention it to clarify for any other readers.

 

[beng]

pnewton:

The point is that you have Abraham becoming a Catholic after his death, which has him saved without being Catholic alive. Of course the idea that these pre-church saints were Catholic before the Catholic Church exists is a absurd. This is why the statement under discussion must be taken in context and not as the absolute that some try to spin it.

The Church has been prepared since the beginning of the world. Thus we CAN say that Abraham etc is a member of the Church. Refers to CCC 759-769.

The Church was then fully revealed at Pentacost.

PS - Jesus did not descend into hell. This is a poor translation as I am sure someone with your knowledge knows. I only mention it to clarify for any other readers.

What’s incorrect is most people perception of Hell. We can safely said that Jesus indeed descend into Hell.

Hell is NOT ONLY the place of torment. Limbo or Sheol is also Hell. That is why the CCC stated that Jesus descended to Hell.

PS
An unofficial source from St Anne Catherine Emmerich’s Delorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned that Jesus ALSO descend to the lower part of hell where there’s torment. He met Judas there. Of course this is not the official Church teaching.

 

[FelixBlue]

I’m sorry, I did the quotes backwards here…

beng:

That reasoning is wrong. One need to embrace the FULL truth. Not partial. That is why the Church even consider that sacrament will not even benefitted schismatic like Orthodox. If we treat Orthodox as such then how can we even think that Muslim, Hindu etc can be saved following their own religion. That is very erroneous.

Yes, one needs to embrace the full truth (Christ) as he knows the truth. Does my seven year old who is just now preparing for his first communion “embrace the full truth” as you seem to demand. I tell you, he is almost as clueless as a monkey. Secondly, to say we “reject the Orthodox sacrament” is not to say all Orthodox are going to hell; it merely means that their Eucharist…assumng that’s what you mean…is not licit for us (except in extraordinary circumstances). So your point has no bearing on the argument.

All the element of truth found in many religion only compells them to unity with the Catholic Church. When they have united that’s when they will be saved. They can not be saved as Hindu etc.

Yes…truth tugs toward the Catholic Church. This is the tug of the Holy Spirit. But some are very slow in coming…in fact, so slow, they seem not to come at all. Still, they come according to the light they possess.

The Church has revealed that the way to enter it is through baptism. I could flood you with many verses and comment how baptism is necessary. But suffice to say that the ONLY way to enter the Church is Baptism. Now, this is a truth reveal and protected by the Holy Spirit. There can be no other truth. If you say that one can enter the Church via other means than the dogma will become null and God would have defied Himself.

Agreed. Baptism is the ordinary means. Yet, there are many as well who were not baptized who we know are saints and in heaven…Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, the good thief, etc. I know this point has already been made on the thread. But you must recognize that the Church acknowledges extraordinary means of entering the Church. Simply put, the extraordinary means are responding to Christ/the Truth as you know him/it.

QUOTE]

 

[pnewton]

beng:

. That is why the CCC stated that Jesus descended to Hell.
.

The CCC equates hell in the context of the creed with Sheol (the place of the dead), not Gehenna (the place of the damned). Jesus descended into Sheol, of which the most common English translation is Hades or the grave, not Gehenna, which is exclusively translated “hell.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

tru_dvotion:

I fully agree with you. We do not know and perhaps nobody else will know in this life what transpires between a creature and God before death. Nor are we of full knowledge what other mercies the Almighty has in store for our fellow creatures. But I do believe, we first and foremost have to abide by the indisputable teachings of the Church. I am referring to Catholic Dogma and not to some friendly papal address. We must look to those parts of our faith, which are not open for discussion or alteration. I believe we do GREAT DISSERVICE to those, who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church if we fail to warn them and if we adopt the humanist approach… God is love… you are all right, I am all right, we all are all right and we all are destined to go to heaven. WRONG! God is also a judge; a merciful judge, but nevertheless a judge. We should all be trembling in our boots for not measuring up rather than looking for ways to water down the truth in false charity.

So, True Devotion (or any other person in this thread, for that matter, since the quote boxes are messed up and I can’t keep track of who is saying what!), are you saying that my devout, loving (in the sense of charity/caritas, not the Barney the Purple Dinosaur sense), and saintly grandmother is even now in hell? She was not formally a part of our church. Nor is her widower, my grandfather, the most godly man I’ve ever known, who seeks Christ with his whole heart, but who has the same attitude toward our church as most Southern Baptist deacons his age would have (he’s not thrilled I’m Catholic, but he “knows” that I’m “saved,” to use their lexicon). Really, tell me. I’m curious.

 

[beng]

FelixBlue:

Yes, one needs to embrace the full truth (Christ) as he knows the truth. Does my seven year old who is just now preparing for his first communion “embrace the full truth” as you seem to demand. I tell you, he is almost as clueless as a monkey.

If you’re 7 years old is in the Catholic Church then the answer is “Yes”.

Secondly, to say we “reject the Orthodox sacrament” is not to say all Orthodox are going to hell; it merely means that their Eucharist…assumng that’s what you mean…is not licit for us (except in extraordinary circumstances). So your point has no bearing on the argument.

No, what I said is that their sacrament will not benefitted themselves for salvation. This is clear from the Council of Florence quote I wrote on the first page.

Yes…truth tugs toward the Catholic Church. This is the tug of the Holy Spirit. But some are very slow in coming…in fact, so slow, they seem not to come at all. Still, they come according to the light they possess.

They have the time they need to reach the Catholic Church. God doesn’t ask for impossibility. If they do not unit with the Catholic Church until the last second of their death, they will not enter Heaven.

Agreed. Baptism is the ordinary means. Yet, there are many as well who were not baptized who we know are saints and in heaven…Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, the good thief, etc.

Baptism by desire when they were evangelize by Christ.

I know this point has already been made on the thread. But you must recognize that the Church acknowledges extraordinary means of entering the Church. Simply put, the extraordinary means are responding to Christ/the Truth as you know him/it.

What is this extraordinary means?

The dogma is clear. Making an exception will make it meaningless (refer to Humani Generis paragraph 27,28)

 

[beng]

pnewton:

The CCC equates hell in the context of the creed with Sheol (the place of the dead), not Gehenna (the place of the damned). Jesus descended into Sheol, of which the most common English translation is Hades or the grave, not Gehenna, which is exclusively translated “hell.”

The word “Hell” has always been refer to the place of torment and Limbo, until nowadays. See the “Hell” entry on Newadvent.org.

 

[beng]

JKirkLVNV:

So, True Devotion (or any other person in this thread, for that matter, since the quote boxes are messed up and I can’t keep track of who is saying what!), are you saying that my devout, loving (in the sense of charity/caritas, not the Barney the Purple Dinosaur sense), and saintly grandmother is even now in hell? She was not formally a part of our church. Nor is her widower, my grandfather, the most godly man I’ve ever known, who seeks Christ with his whole heart, but who has the same attitude toward our church as most Southern Baptist deacons his age would have (he’s not thrilled I’m Catholic, but he “knows” that I’m “saved,” to use their lexicon). Really, tell me. I’m curious.

If they’re not joinned with the Catholic Church somehow and somehow in the last nano second of their death, they will not enter Heaven.

Sad, but true.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

If they’re not joinned with the Catholic Church somehow and somehow in the last nano second of their death, they will not enter Heaven.

Sad, but true.

The truth of the matter is that only God knows. :confused:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SPOKENWORD:

The truth of the matter is that only God knows.

Yes, that I am able to whole heartedly assent to…only God knows and Jesus is God and Jesus as He is shown in the Gospels fills me with hope for us all.

 

[tru_dvotion]

So, True Devotion (or any other person in this thread, for that matter, since the quote boxes are messed up and I can’t keep track of who is saying what!), are you saying that my devout, loving (in the sense of charity/caritas, not the Barney the Purple Dinosaur sense), and saintly grandmother is even now in hell?

Well let me answer you with another question. If it makes absolutely no difference, and if you were absolutely sure a Southern Baptist could get into heaven, why are you not a Southern Baptist? You are a Catholic, because you know it is the only assured way to serve Christ in this world and to be with him in the next. If you deep down did not believe your salvation was on better track in the Catholic Church, you would not be a Catholic.

I have no idea where your Grammy is. I hope she is not down there as they say. But then I would not be sure enough to say that she wasn’t either. Pray hard for your family, I am doing the same. I have a large family and most of them are up to their ying yang in new age, eastern meditations, yoga, mediums and horoscopes. I do what I can and beyond that I cannot do more. But one thing is sure: we have to try to bring them out of where ever they are. This might be unsettling for you, but I would not be so sure your Grammy made it to heaven.