"Extra ecclesiam" vs. Holy Spirit present in other churches?

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LuciusMaximus

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Greetings!

I come from a Pentecostal background and have been learning more about Catholicism. I’d like to know what the Catholic view of the Holy Spirit working in other churches is, and how that might conflict with the concept of “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus”?

In other words, if the Catholic Church is the one, true church established by Jesus, how do we reconcile that with signs that the Holy Spirit has been present in other churches? Not only with gifts such as speaking in tongues and healing, but with the demonstrably explosive growth of churches such as the Assemblies of God around the world?

I’m aware of the Catholic charismatic movement, but the movement is not limited to just the Catholic Church. If the Holy Spirit is truly present in other believers across denominations, does that mean that God would have to be contradicting Himself if he truly had established one, visible, universal church that you need to be a member of to receive salvation, and that it might follow that He should not necessarily help other, “heretical” denominations?

This is perhaps a roadblock for me - why leave a Pentecostal church where it seems like the Holy Spirit is often present, to satisfy a possibly flawed intellectual urge to join the “one true church”?
 
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If we accept the dogma that the Exalted is omnipresent (I do), then how can the ‘Holy Spirit’ not be present in any given place…or person…or church?
 
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Agreed, certainly, He is omnipresent. But in my experience, and from what I’ve heard or read elsewhere, He has been moving in other churches. So by His doing that, does it invalidate the claim that the Catholic Church is the only one He approves of, not dispensing salvation outside of?
 
LuciusMaximus said:
Agreed, certainly, He is omnipresent. But in my experience, and from what I’ve heard or read elsewhere, He has been moving in other churches. So by His doing that, does it invalidate the claim that the Catholic Church is the only one He approves of, not dispensing salvation outside of?
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For me, the Exalted approves of all who submit to His will - as they perceive it, in all good conscience - and who strive to do good. No single religion, or religious body, has exclusive access to His love. But not everyone would agree! 😄
 
I suggest you read the section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, entitled, “The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic,” paragraphs 811-870. It talks about gifts of the Holy Spirit found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church (paragraph 819) and about “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus” (“Outside the Church there is no salvation”) (paragraphs 846-848).
 
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Anyone who is baptized in a valid trinitarian baptism receives the Holy Spirit. This means that Protestants and others receive the Holy Spirit more than nonbaptized people but less then Catholics who have the Eucharist as well.
 
LuciusMaximus said:
God would have to be contradicting Himself if he truly had established one, visible, universal church that you need to be a member of to receive salvation, and that it might follow that He should not necessarily help other, “heretical” denominations?
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No contradiction here. The fullness of the Faith is in Catholicism. The New Testament canon came from God, through the magisterium. If the non Catholic minister leads the person to Christ using that canon, the same Spirit is at work, even if the minister doesn’t think he needs the RCC.

Protestant churches vary in terms of how much of the magisterium legacy they borrowed. Individuals in other denominations certainly can respond to the Spirit, sometimes more than Catholics.

The fact that there is some truth everywhere doesn’t prevent the fullness of truth from being somewhere specific. It is.
 
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I think that is a great answer and helps me reconcile things much better (I appreciate the other answers I’ve gotten as well and think they have all been good).
 
‘John answered, "Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us. But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.”’ - Luke 9:49-50

Protestants may receive some gifts, but it is only because they have some truth, not the fullness of truth. God is merciful.
 
God is the only ultimate source of light, but He usually tends to work through a specific lighthouse - the Magisterium. Many boats (denominations) out there conscientiously or unconsciously are guided by the lighthouse.

They might use other phrases: “we are faithful to the historic Creeds and Tradition of ancient Christianity” without mentioning who, exactly, authenticated the boundaries of Christianity. They will reject as cults those who stray too far from the Magisterium, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses. They reject as cults those who add books to the magisterium Canon, such as Mormons.

I think many denominations that don’t want to go exactly right to the light house still consider where the magisterium stands in new issues…they never want to be too different from the “template”. The lighthouse shows them where they stand now. Useful information.

But God has other means we know nothing about.
 
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LuciusMaximus said:
I come from a Pentecostal background and have been learning more about Catholicism. I’d like to know what the Catholic view of the Holy Spirit working in other churches is, and how that might conflict with the concept of “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus”?

In other words, if the Catholic Church is the one, true church established by Jesus, how do we reconcile that with signs that the Holy Spirit has been present in other churches? Not only with gifts such as speaking in tongues and healing, but with the demonstrably explosive growth of churches such as the Assemblies of God around the world?

I’m aware of the Catholic charismatic movement, but the movement is not limited to just the Catholic Church. If the Holy Spirit is truly present in other believers across denominations, does that mean that God would have to be contradicting Himself if he truly had established one, visible, universal church that you need to be a member of to receive salvation, and that it might follow that He should not necessarily help other, “heretical” denominations?

This is perhaps a roadblock for me - why leave a Pentecostal church where it seems like the Holy Spirit is often present, to satisfy a possibly flawed intellectual urge to join the “one true church”?
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I’ve wondered the same thing myself, many, many times — how can the Holy Spirit be all-powerful, yet not be powerful enough to “bring it all the way home”, as I say, that is, “home” to the Catholic Church? Also, how can the Holy Spirit allow people to remain in (partial) error?

It is a deep mystery and I suppose it will only be fully known in the next life.
 
If the Holy Spirit could not exist outside the visibly, delineated Church, then no one would ever be drawn into the Church. Likewise, we have always acknowledged valid sacraments outside the Church, and those require the Holy Spirit. The baptized in good faith who receive those sacraments, etc. are not separated from the Church–they are not “outside” for the purposes this dogma–and may be sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

The Catechism of St. Pius X puts it this way:

Catechism of Pius X
22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?
A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.
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www.ewtn.com

Catechism of St. Pius X | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.
www.ewtn.com www.ewtn.com
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I’ve wondered the same thing myself, many, many times — how can the Holy Spirit be all-powerful, yet not be powerful enough to “bring it all the way home”, as I say, that is, “home” to the Catholic Church? Also, how can the Holy Spirit allow people to remain in (partial) error?
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As the First Vatican Council said (quoting the Second Council of Orange), the Holy Spirit “gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth.” This may not happen to everyone at the same time, as the parable of the workers in the vineyard shows–God may give this grace at different times, even the “eleventh hour.”

We don’t know whether someone has been brought all the way or not based on where they are outwardly right now. God may not have sent that grace yet, or that person may have hidden sins which impede their reception of said grace. That’s not for us to judge.

Further more, it has never been the case that the baptized need to get every detail right. Faith in Christ covers everything. As the Catechism says, Christ “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65); “what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son” (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross).

That’s why innocent ignorance or mistake does not invalidate faith if one has faith in Christ. Of course, the flip side is also true: deliberately denying an article of faith destroys faith altogether by individual replacing God with himself as the authority on which he submits his intellect and will.

The point is, there is no contradiction if understand that God brings that journey to completion at different times for different people, sometimes even if only at the “eleventh hour” in those final moments in a way not outwardly manifested.

However, we need to be ready to receive and follow Him when He does give that grace to us, no matter what “hour” it is.
 
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Genesis315 said:
29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.
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I am very pleased to know that this comes from the Catechism of Pius X. The concept of being “united to the soul of the Church” does not at all contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is very consoling.
Genesis315 said:
Further more, it has never been the case that the baptized need to get every detail right. Faith in Christ covers everything. As the Catechism says, Christ “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65); “what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son” (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross).
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This, too, is very consoling. None of us know everything, and it is entirely possible that if any of us would dig deeply enough, we’d find that our understanding of this point, or that one, is imperfect and always has been. Should we be blamed for that? Clearly not. I’ve heard it said that we’d all be material heretics if we talked long enough about matters of faith.
 
Maximian said:
It is a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday. Protestants do not have a valid Mass, therefore they miss Mass every Sunday. They all without exception die in a state of mortal sin.
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This is not Church teaching. The law obligating Mass attendance every Sunday is applicable to Catholics and no one else. We are not in a position to determine whether or not someone else (let alone an entire group/groups of people) are in mortal sin. Even if they were committing grave sin, for it to meet the “mortal” definition, they would have to knowingly and willfully commit it, which they do not.
 
Thank you for clarifying that. I thought it was an unnecessarily harsh position to take.
 
This is from the Baltimore Catechism regarding salvation of non Catholics;
Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?

A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

1.(1) Has been validly baptized;

2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and

3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?

A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.


Basically, the Holy Spirit moves where He wills, not where we tell Him to go.
 
The Holy Spirit unites, always and everywhere. I would question the source of a spirit which promotes or maintains division.
 
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