Extreme disruptions during Mass

[happymommy]

Children need to learn at an early age that the loud noise IS coming from the child, and not from the parents or Society or whatever other outside force their doting mommies might feel like blaming. My mother attended church with five children all born within 10 years of one another, and so did many other Mothers of Baby Boomers, and we did not have screaming and throwing things and walking on the pews and kicking the people next to the child in those days. And just what exactly is the child learning about Mass when she is screaming and throwing things? She is learning that here is yet another place where she can rampage and nobody will rein her in.

Ask your mother what she did, if you cant remember. Odds are you can in fact remember.

I would ask her, but she died. Sorry. I do know, we sat very still. Why, because we knew better. Why, because that is how I was raised. Kids don’t come out knowing right from wrong. It’s part of being a parent. But I also know that I take three children every week, age 9, 6 and 2. We get through mass just fine. Some people have kids that fuss, I’ve been there. There was a time with all of them that I removed them from the church, calmed them down and brought them back in. No one was mean and no one called my kid a “brat” If you don’t teach them they will not learn! It’s people with bad attitudes that make others not want to come back to church. I do not want to face Jesus someday and be judged on that. That my coldness and lack of compassion drove a family from His home!
If the child is not behaving it’s the parents who should fix it. Name calling of the child does nothing. You’ve mentioned your mother many times now and how many kids she taken to church. Have you had to do it? Do you have children or are you just one of those great people who know how to raise other peoples kids?

 

[Kathrine]

I am still shocked and amazed at the shortsightedness I’ve seen in this thread.

Example number three:

Mother or father is at her/his wits end; depressed, lonely, terribly sad, whatever the case may be. Eventually she/he decides to just go to Church with her/his child(ren) and just lay it all out for God. Perhaps cry, pound on his chest, or just … maybe … let it all go. So, while he/she is just trying to make it through today we have all of these people shooting angry glares at this persons children.

The point is not that people need to cater to unruly children, but to understand that there are other reasons that these things happen.

Again I ask, are you ready to make another’s cross heavier because you are inconvenienced?

I am certain the priest will deal with it if it is a serious problem.

 

[Appleby]

You can’t make a blanket statement about the church like that. Have you been to all of the Catholic Churches? Ours is very child friendly. Not impatient or unfriendly at all. It’s full of beautiful young families and the older people support them and help with the children. We are a Church Family. It’s wonderful. Maybe, if you feel this strongly you should do something to change the church atmosphere, instead of just complaining. It’s your church, help it grow!

Our church has only ONE Mass in English, so our choice is either to suffer the disruptions or attend early Mass in Italian. The people who are most thoughtful and considerate will keep their children in a special section in the back near the door, so that if their children become fussy or disruptive they can take them into the hall and walk up and down with them while still following along. The others come in late, elbow past those of us trying to follow the Mass, and allow their children free reign while apparently pretending they dont know who those children are.

It is possible for people with young children to co-exist with those whose children are grown up and gone, if the people with children are considerate and realize that we are there to worship God.

And as for those who disdainfully refer to us as Old Biddies, can you stop your tantrum long enough to consider that some of us Old Biddies might have a hard time hearing the priest – because your child is talking in his outdoor voice while the priest is saying the prayers? What if it was your grandmother and I referred to her as That Old Biddie when she asked my child to please not talk so loudly because she was hard of hearing?

 

[happymommy]

After being questioned about my mother, thanks for that by the way. I remember her telling me a story that her mother told her. My grandmother was in church, Presbyterian, there was a family there and their little baby started to cry, before the mother had time to do anything. the minister stopped the sermon and told that women to take her baby out, that it was full of the devil, that’s why it was crying in church. So you see, there have been crying babies in church for a long time, and there have always been jerks there to rub the parents noses in it.

 

[Kathrine]

Please, I’ve been hard of hearing all my life… where is the worlds smallest violin so I can play it for you.

Instead of having consideration for their situation, you’re demanding consideration for your own.

 

[happymommy]

Our church has only ONE Mass in English, so our choice is either to suffer the disruptions or attend early Mass in Italian. The people who are most thoughtful and considerate will keep their children in a special section in the back near the door, so that if their children become fussy or disruptive they can take them into the hall and walk up and down with them while still following along. The others come in late, elbow past those of us trying to follow the Mass, and allow their children free reign while apparently pretending they dont know who those children are.

It is possible for people with young children to co-exist with those whose children are grown up and gone, if the people with children are considerate and realize that we are there to worship God.

And as for those who disdainfully refer to us as Old Biddies, can you stop your tantrum long enough to consider that some of us Old Biddies might have a hard time hearing the priest – because your child is talking in his outdoor voice while the priest is saying the prayers? What if it was your grandmother and I referred to her as That Old Biddie when she asked my child to please not talk so loudly because she was hard of hearing?

Well, we co-exist just fine with everyone in our church. I agree about the respect, it is not taught anymore and it’s really sad. Some older people do have hearing problems, so do some children, could be why they are talking louder. Didn’t think of that did you. But just being older, does not give you the right to be rude. I believe that respect is a two way street.

 

[Frankr409]

I have great sympathy for the OP of this thread. I have yet to see a Catholic Church that does not have a cry room where a parent could take a child who is obviously creating a great deal of discomfort to those around it. In my opinion, this should be an obligation so as to promote sacred silence throughout the mass, and especially at the consecration.

I go to an early mass mostly because families with young children do not typically attend, and maybe this is an option for the OP.

 

[happymommy]

I have great sympathy for the OP of this thread. I have yet to see a Catholic Church that does not have a cry room where a parent could take a child who is obviously creating a great deal of discomfort to those around it. In my opinion, this should be an obligation so as to promote sacred silence throughout the mass, and especially at the consecration.

I go to an early mass mostly because families with young children do not typically attend, and maybe this is an option for the OP.

Would you rather that we didn’t bring our children to mass? Would that make it easier for you? Too bad. Those of us with children have every right to go to whatever mass we choose. And we go to the 8:00 am mass, so we are there bright and early. As does this great family with 8 kids, oh and the family with 6 kids. We are in all of the masses you can’t escape us. It’s all part of our evil plan to ruin mass for you and all who don’t have small children. hahaha (that’s maniacal laughing)npatrol: npatrol: npatrol:

 

[Frankr409]

Would you rather that we didn’t bring our children to mass? Would that make it easier for you? Too bad. Those of us with children have every right to go to whatever mass we choose. And we go to the 8:00 am mass, so we are there bright and early. As does this great family with 8 kids, oh and the family with 6 kids. We are in all of the masses you can’t escape us. It’s all part of our evil plan to ruin mass for you and all who don’t have small children. hahaha (that’s maniacal laughing)npatrol: npatrol: npatrol:

I am sorry my response to the OP’s question brought this kind of reply. You make it seem as if I am the one screaming at mass, I am not. If I ever start, I hope they will build a special room to put me in so that I do not distract the mass for others. In the mean time though, they do have such a room for small children that cannot sit through the mass in silence as they ought, and it is called a cry room. I would hope that parents would have the good sense to use it at the first sign of unruliness.

 

[jmcrae]

These are not meant to be attacks, but food for thought…

Who decides what is fair for the rest of the congregation? The loudest members? How do *you *(plural you) know what is best for the congregation?

Sacred silence is always best, at Mass, because sacred silence is what the Mass is about.

Are you going to send a person away because they make outbursts in the middle of Mass? People with mental disabilities, often look very normal… so what if you can’t tell why they’re behaving this way?

Why does it matter, the reason? If they are being noisy, and especially if they can’t help it, then they need to be somewhere that the noisiness is acceptable. Not in the sacred silences of the Mass.

The Mass is open to everyone, of every age and every level of ability, if they will partake of it fully, and participate in its sacred silences. But if they are not able to do that, or not inclined to do that in this particular moment, then they need to be somewhere else, doing something different, more suited to where they are at, at that particular moment in time.

They can freely and most welcomedly return to Mass when they are interiorly disposed to partake of its essences, including the sacred silences.

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me,” but He never said, “Drag the little ones to me against their will,” or “Bring people into My Presence who will have absolutely no clue where they are; who think they are at the jungle gym.” Jesus wants the little children to come to Him consciously and fully aware of the awesome majesty of being in His Presence. Not screaming and throwing things and running around as if they were at the jungle gym.

The occasional peep now and then is to be expected. Shifting around to get comfortable on the pew is not out of line. But jumping around, screaming, and throwing things, are issues that need to be dealt with in the moment, by removing the child or disabled person from the environment and taking them away to a place where they can calm down, before bringing them back.

 

[happymommy]

I am sorry my response to the OP’s question brought this kind of reply. You make it seem as if I am the one screaming at mass, I am not. If I ever start, I hope they will build a special room to put me in so that I do not distract the mass for others. In the mean time though, they do have such a room for small children that cannot sit through the mass in silence as they ought, and it is called a cry room. I would hope that parents would have the good sense to use it at the first sign of unruliness.

I was kidding, lighten up. We have been at this most of the afternoon.

We wouldn’t be allowed to build a room for you, that would be discrimination.

 

[RobbyS]

You did. Mass at its “fullest” means putting up with stuff like this. But as I suggested, a one-time incident is just that. If it looks like it’s going to be a regular thing, someone whose job it is to handle these things really ought to approach the parents. If this kid is really off the chart behavior-wise, maybe there is something wrong with him/her.

Used to be that’s what we had ushers for.

 

[happymommy]

Sacred silence is always best, at Mass, because sacred silence is what the Mass is about.

Why does it matter, the reason? If they are being noisy, and especially if they can’t help it, then they need to be somewhere that the noisiness is acceptable. Not in the sacred silences of the Mass.

The Mass is open to everyone, of every age and every level of ability, if they will partake of it fully, and participate in its sacred silences. But if they are not able to do that, or not inclined to do that in this particular moment, then they need to be somewhere else, doing something different, more suited to where they are at, at that particular moment in time.

They can freely and most welcomedly return to Mass when they are interiorly disposed to partake of its essences, including the sacred silences.

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me,” but He never said, “Drag the little ones to me against their will,” or “Bring people into My Presence who will have absolutely no clue where they are; who think they are at the jungle gym.” Jesus wants the little children to come to Him consciously and fully aware of the awesome majesty of being in His Presence. Not screaming and throwing things and running around as if they were at the jungle gym.

The occasional peep now and then is to be expected. Shifting around to get comfortable on the pew is not out of line. But jumping around, screaming, and throwing things, are issues that need to be dealt with in the moment, by removing the child or disabled person from the environment and taking them away to a place where they can calm down, before bringing them back.

So people with handicapped children shouldn’t bring them, they don’t have the right to be near Christ? They should be removed because they can’t help how they are? I think you are very lucky to not have to deal with this situation and my heart aches for the people with children or family members with these problems. I believe Jesus spent a lot of time with disabled people. He didn’t look down on them, you shouldn’t either.

 

[Kathrine]

Sacred silence is always best, at Mass, because sacred silence is what the Mass is about.

Mass is solely about sacred silence? Cite your sources?

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me,” but He never said, “Drag the little ones to me against their will,” or “Bring people into My Presence who will have absolutely no clue where they are; who think they are at the jungle gym.” Jesus wants the little children to come to Him consciously and fully aware of the awesome majesty of being in His Presence. Not screaming and throwing things and running around as if they were at the jungle gym.

All I have to say is just… Wow! I’m glad I don’t know any Catholics like you, otherwise… I’d find another parish!

 

[Frankr409]

I must have missed something by not reading through all 5 pages of this conversation, but what again was the problem with the cry room for disruptive children?

 

[jmcrae]

So people with handicapped children shouldn’t bring them, they don’t have the right to be near Christ? They should be removed because they can’t help how they are? I think you are very lucky to not have to deal with this situation and my heart aches for the people with children or family members with these problems. I believe Jesus spent a lot of time with disabled people. He didn’t look down on them, you shouldn’t either.

He also healed them.

I have been around many disabled people, and they are fully capable of reverent silence, and of being aware of their surroundings. We insult them by expecting less from them. There is an autistic child who attends Mass at my parish, and he is a model of silence and reverence at Mass. He hoots and hollers and jumps around after Mass, but never during Mass. He is a credit to his upbringing, and the patient and loving but firm teaching and guidance of his parents.

 

[Kathrine]

I have been around many disabled people, and they are fully capable of reverent silence, and of being aware of their surroundings. We insult them by expecting less from them.

Yes, some can, but not all of them

 

[happymommy]

I must have missed something by not reading through all 5 pages of this conversation, but what again was the problem with the cry room for disruptive children?

Nothing, at all. I’ve used it. It’s the bad attitude of some of the people posting about children even being in mass. Some name calling of small children instead of putting the blame on the parents for not correcting the behavior. I think the cry room has a purpose. But I don’t think I should have to sit in there, just because I have little kids. I have taken my kids back there, calmed them down and brought them back into the church. So they can see what is really going on and learn about the mass and what happens. I’m just asking for respect for parents. It’s not easy taking kids to church sometimes. We all have bad days, adults can normally control their behavior (although I think some of the fits thrown today on this site might change my mind on that)small children can’t. But that does not mean you keep them out of church or make the parents feel badly about it.

 

[sarah_anne_628]

I am wondering if some two year olds have better interpersonnel skills than some of those posting in this thread!

A certain amount of noise and disruption should be expected in any mass, but especially a mass with children; however…all people, whether they have kids or not, have a right to hear what is being said. And this church has a cry room…no one in that congregation should’ve had to put up with that.

Since it was just a one-time incident (still no excuse in my book)…it might be prudent for the OP to have more patience. Perhaps express concerns to the priest and see what happens next week.

I am not without sympathy for the parent though. My parish is on a military installation where a large chunk of soldiers are deployed year round. Not only does that leave single parents behind…but it leaves behind kids who are USED to 2 parent homes…their worlds have been turned upside down and mom is hundreds of miles away from any other family. And it is usually the dads who leave…and dads tend to be that booming voice that young children listen to (while constantly challenging mom).

On top of that…our community has 100-300 parishoners (depending on which of the three weekly services it is…last week it was 600 total in attendance) and a nursery that holds 11 kids. A cry room is not available. The way the church is set up, to take the child to another part of the church would require exiting the sancuary at the very front (just before the altar)…with a screaming kid…I don’t see that happening. A parent could leave out the back…but there’s just a hallway and the doors are open, so it won’t really help…unless they want to actually go outside.

So coming from a parish with very few viable options when it comes to dealing with disruptive children…I would find the situation the OP described where an option WAS available extremely irritating and would be here ranting about it as well and not expecting people to be up in my face telling me and others who agree with me that we are biddies, uncompassionate and whatever else was hurled at them.

BUT…also coming from a parish that has high stress and probably unique atmosphere than most other regular parishes…and having seen and (am experiencing) the crushing of the soul that accompanies being separated from your soul mate for 12-15 months (usually for the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time in recent years)…I can understand a parent watching her child wail and just not care at that precise moment because every fiber of her being is concentrated on just holding it together. We have all been at the end of our rope like that…whether we have kids or not.

Chances are, this was not the case and the parent was just having a bad day…or maybe the parent is just inconsiderate…it doesn’t matter…as Christians, we have an obligation to be compassionate, patient and understanding…or to at least pretend to be and grit our teeth and pray this situation resolved itself and soon.

As for me…I am neither young, nor old, nor a mother, nor a biddy…but I am hard of hearing!

 

[jmcrae]

Mass is solely about sacred silence? Cite your sources?

I didn’t say “solely”. Check the GIRM; there are several places in the Mass that call for sacred silence.