Extreme disruptions during Mass

[happymommy]

He also healed them.

I have been around many disabled people, and they are fully capable of reverent silence, and of being aware of their surroundings. We insult them by expecting less from them.

Do you think He healed every person? Does that mean that those who are not healed are worth less in the eyes of the Lord?

My husbands grandmother has Alzheimer’s. Is it insulting of me to not expect her to know what day it is. Or which grandchild she is talking too? She doesn’t even know where she is sometimes. Should I berate her and work with her so she can remember this info. for 5 mins. Should I be angry or think less of her because she isn’t the women she once was? No, she can’t help it that she doesn’t know these things. It’s who she is now. What is insulting is people not being accepting of others and their limitations.

 

[Kathrine]

You said it is about sacred silence. You didn’t qualify your statement at all. You even went so far as to italicize the word “about” for emphasis without giving any further clarification.

 

[jmcrae]

Do you think He healed every person? Does that mean that those who are not healed are worth less in the eyes of the Lord?

No, not at all, but don’t we have different expectations for them? We don’t require them to go to Mass, if they can’t do it.

My husbands grandmother has Alzheimer’s. Is it insulting of me to not expect her to know what day it is.

But you also don’t put her in charge of writing a calendar or building a clock, right? You work within what she is capable of, and you don’t scream “discrimination” if they don’t let her be in charge of turning the calendar.

Or which grandchild she is talking too? She doesn’t even know where she is sometimes. Should I berate her and work with her so she can remember this info. for 5 mins. Should I be angry or think less of her because she isn’t the women she once was?

Nobody is asking anybody to be angry with a disabled person.

 

[Frankr409]

Nothing, at all. I’ve used it. It’s the bad attitude of some of the people posting about children even being in mass. Some name calling of small children instead of putting the blame on the parents for not correcting the behavior. I think the cry room has a purpose. But I don’t think I should have to sit in there, just because I have little kids. I have taken my kids back there, calmed them down and brought them back into the church. So they can see what is really going on and learn about the mass and what happens. I’m just asking for respect for parents. It’s not easy taking kids to church sometimes. We all have bad days, adults can normally control their behavior (although I think some of the fits thrown today on this site might change my mind on that)small children can’t. But that does not mean you keep them out of church or make the parents feel badly about it.

If someone advocated not bringing children to mass then this is simply wrong. There has to be common sense by parents though:

1. My child is having some obvious problems just prior to departure for mass. Should I perhaps stay home with them, should I at a minimum be prepared to hit the cry room?
2. My child is out of control during mass. Should I not consider hitting the cry room to get the situation under control?
3. My child is talking during mass. Should I consider removing said child from mass just long enough to reiterate that there is no talking during mass?

I really don’t think this is much to ask.

Nevertheless, I still have great sympathy for the OP, it seems fewer and fewer parents understand the need for silence during mass, and in general really care about the needs of other people as I think has been aptly demonstrated by some of the responses in this post.

 

[jmcrae]

You said it is about sacred silence. You didn’t qualify your statement at all. You even went so far as to italicize the word “about” for emphasis without giving any further clarification.

Look. Mass is supposed to be a silent, prayerful place. Right?

We bring our children there because we hope that they will learn to be silent and prayerful, right? I mean, that’s the ultimate goal. To have them enter into the classroom of silence that is the Mass, and hear the still small voice of God speaking to them in their hearts.

 

[ChristIsLord]

Your daughter is two years old and does not obey you at least most of the time? Then you have a real problem.

How, pray, will she “grow out of it” when, from your post, it seems that there are no consequences for bad behavior?

Who’s in charge? It appears to be your daughter. It’s not a question of whether you approve or not. It’s what are you doing about it? Your daughter needs to be corrected - probably needs spanking.

My daughter is fine, she gets better as learns to communicate better.

I would never put my hands on my daughter it destroys childrens self-esteem. Much of what a child will become is infused in them by three years old. I never laid a hand on my son and he was perfectly behaved.

My daughter is just a little terror, she’ll grow out of it, your idea of parenting isn’t very appealing and it’s very antiquated and not recommended by essentially everyone, who would hit a tiny little girl between 18 months and two years old and think that is the way to raise a child? My father slapped me around when I was younger and it crushed my spirit and destroyed our relationship, I’ll never hit or bully my kids, my son is going on 8 and very respectful and bright.

 

[ChristIsLord]

What are you doing; asking her politely, “Please honey, stop the screaming”? Because - yeah - that doesn’t work.

I agree with the person who suggested spanking. I don’t think spanking is appropriate in all situations, or for all kids, but if she is totally disobedient, then she needs to be spanked, and she needs to be made to know that you are the boss; not her.

LOL do any of you actually have kids? Or do you just play parental adviser on the internet? My 18 month needs to know “I’m the BOSS” urrrr big tough boss man, she’s a tiny little thing, she wouldn’t even know why she’s being hit, you guys are nuts I hope you don’t have children…

 

[happymommy]

If someone advocated not bringing children to mass then this is simply wrong. There has to be common sense by parents though:

1. My child is having some obvious problems just prior to departure for mass. Should I perhaps stay home with them, should I at a minimum be prepared to hit the cry room?
2. My child is out of control during mass. Should I not consider hitting the cry room to get the situation under control?
3. My child is talking during mass. Should I consider removing said child from mass just long enough to reiterate that there is no talking during mass?

I really don’t think this is much to ask.

Nevertheless, I still have great sympathy for the OP, it seems fewer and fewer parents understand the need for silence during mass, and in general really care about the needs of other people as I think has been aptly demonstrated by some of the responses in this post.

I’m not going to run the OP down, I’m sure it was upsetting for her. I think we have all been there and for awhile I did feel sorry for her as well, that’s changed a little. Oh well.
I know what I do with my kids. They are great in church, because that is what they have been shown and what they have learned. But on the days they weren’t so great, my church family was very kind. I return that favor to others with small children.

 

[ChristIsLord]

Island_Oak:
Sure there was. My parents tell stories of attending mass in shifts when there were babies at home. Somewhere along the line people forgot that part of parenting is consideration of others’ needs and maintaining control of their own kids–or failing that–removing them from the situation. Screaming kids in mass are NEVER cute or adorable. At best it’s tolerated…with full recognition that the real misbehaving party is the adult in charge, not the noisy baby/child.

It’s really amazing how welcoming all people are to children who are managed appropriately for the situation. Mass is not the same as the zoo, ballpark or playground. Why should any of us pretend otherwise or not elevate our expectation of parents in the mass setting?!

And your defensiveness and snotty responses throughout this thread make it clear you are carrying a huge chip on your shoulder.

This is such utter nonsense. Expecting ADULTS to manage their own children has NOTHING to do with accepting children willingly, lovingly or being fervently opposed to abortion. Are you honestly suggesting that anyone who expects parents to deal with their kids’ outbursts is wishing the children had never been born or saying they shouldn’t ever be brought to mass?! We are saying parents have a RESPONSIBILITY TO the CONGREGATION which can’t be shrugged off or blamed on a willful child or intolerant “biddies.” Parents: Do your job. If you’re unwilling to do so, at the very least leave the screaming kiddies at home until you can reliably manage their behaviour!

They don’t you nasty thing, did you miss the part where I said I no longer take her to Mass? I bet you don’t even have children, probably one of these old biddies who love going to Family Mass just to make parents feel uncomfortable because their toddlers aren’t being “reverent” enough. You seem about as fun as a sock full of needles…

YOU don’t need to do a thing, why even go to the family mass? go to the 10, 12, or 5. Why show up to the family mass just to show your displeasure at people who don’t meet your unrealistic parenting levels?

Like I said it’s old biddies like you who ruin the family mass not the children.

 

[Kathrine]

If someone advocated not bringing children to mass then this is simply wrong. There has to be common sense by parents though:

1. My child is having some obvious problems just prior to departure for mass. Should I perhaps stay home with them, should I at a minimum be prepared to hit the cry room?
2. My child is out of control during mass. Should I not consider hitting the cry room to get the situation under control?
3. My child is talking during mass. Should I consider removing said child from mass just long enough to reiterate that there is no talking during mass?

I really don’t think this is much to ask.

Nevertheless, I still have great sympathy for the OP, it seems fewer and fewer parents understand the need for silence during mass, and in general really care about the needs of other people as I think has been aptly demonstrated by some of the responses in this post.

It’s not to much to ask. The point of my argument was, there are reasons for this to have not taken place (whatever those reasons may be) and that people ought to take that into consideration.

We bring our children there because we hope that they will learn to be silent and prayerful, right? I mean, that’s the ultimate goal. To have them enter into the classroom of silence that is the Mass, and hear the still small voice of God speaking to them in their hearts.

Yes, but how can they know without being shown by example? And again… If all they have to do is make a little noise (or a lot for a short period) before the parent is shot a dozen angry glares… how are they going to learn? Instead, they make just enough noise to guilt their parents into taking them out.

It’s a delicate balance. You try to correct them in the pew, and again after mass. It may make Mass unpleasant for a couple of weeks while they get the hang of it, but they will get the hang of it.

Trust me, parents are painfully aware of how our children act!

As a personal note, my husband is Southern Baptist. His father a preacher… and all the children are kept in a nursery while the parents go to church. I can’t say I agree with that approach at all. >.<

 

[Julianna]

My son was great at Mass…he did ask alot of questions…

“If God wants to talk to us, why doesn’t he come down here and talk, so we can go home?”

My daughter…a little pistol. On Mothers Day I went to the 11:00 “biddie” Mass. My then 2 yr old dropped one of the books on her foot (from the back of the pew). She started to howl. I rocked her at first and then decided to just take her out. As I was saying “excuse me” going through the pew to get out with her…an elderly gentlemen turned around, gritting his teeth and said, “Hurry up and GET HER OUT OF HERE!” I looked him in the eye and smiled…“Happy Mother’s Day”…was all I could say.

Yeah, I knew better than to go to the 11:00 Mass. Didn’t make it to the 9:30 (family Mass). But I will say, the “family mass” is the loudest. Before me DH and I had children, we avoided that Mass like the plague. You couldn’t hear yourself think.

So as one poster had suggested…“go to another Mass”. It turned out my favorite Mass was 6:00 PM on Sunday night. Quiet, peaceful. I had most of my confirmation candidates attend with me. We sat there…in our blue jeans … just coming from class and it was a great way to start the week off. No “biddies” to deal with…no shrieking screaming kids. (We didn’t have a cry room)… most of the kids under the age of 3 went to the parish hall, we had a staffed nursery for all the morning Masses. But some parents still brought the little ones to Mass.

My daughters shrieking was part actress, part book on foot. My son wasn’t ready to understand what was going on and was (still is) very literal in his thinking…“if I can’t see it, touch it, taste it, smell it, feel it or hear it, it doesn’t exist” (He was later diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome…that explained alot)

At my Baptist grandmothers church, there wasn’t much kid disruption. It was the “eye contact” and “I have a switch in my purse” that took care of it. They also had a fully staffed nursery. Alot of singing was going on, that may have drowned out any disruptions.

Most parents will take their children out if they are disruptive. But alot of Churches have many Mass choices.

In the OP’s case, the parents should have taken that child out right away.

For the poster who has the wild child 2 yr old. I wouldn’t take her to Mass until she got older…I don’t see the point if she is going to be disruptive.

 

[ora_pro_nobis]

Please, people, can we keep this civilised?

Speaking as an “old biddie” I’ve never minded children crying or even screaming during Mass. I just tune it out - something you’ve got to practice. In England we don’t have cry rooms as a rule, so that’s not an option.

There are some strong feelings on this thread, and it’s all getting a bit uncharitable. Please, just dial it down a little!

 

[ChristIsLord]

Just to clarify there is a difference between being old, and being a “biddie”, not all old folks are biddies, and not all biddies are old, ones that go to the family mass and complain about the children definitely qualify as biddie material though.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, but how can they know without being shown by example?

But where is the example, if other children are being allowed to scream and jump and run around without any apparent consequences?

And again… If all they have to do is make a little noise (or a lot for a short period) before the parent is shot a dozen angry glares… how are they going to learn? Instead, they make just enough noise to guilt their parents into taking them out.

We’re not talking about kids who talk quietly to their toys, or shift around a bit during Mass. The kid in the OP was having a full out tantrum blowout that lasted the entire duration of Mass.

 

[sarah_anne_628]

LOL do any of you actually have kids? Or do you just play parental adviser on the internet? My 18 month needs to know “I’m the BOSS” urrrr big tough boss man, she’s a tiny little thing, she wouldn’t even know why she’s being hit, you guys are nuts I hope you don’t have children…

I’m the BOSS" urrrr big tough boss man

That’s exactly right. I know it sounds cruel…you got lucky with your son…as many parents do with their first one…but it sounds like this one has a strong will…which is a good thing…but it requires different parenting tactics…and an iron fist is one of them…and it’s hard…especially when they look up at you with those big puppy dog eyes and those big dragon tears start welling up…and the chin…who can resist the chin…when it starts quivering. But you can laugh or cry about it later…when she starts testing you…which she will do (is already…but it will get worse)…you gotta stand your ground and not budge. This is for her safety (when she thinks it’s funny to run from you in a busy parking lot) AND for her self esteem…the unruley child gets mostly negative attention from the adults around them and that is going to do alot more to damage her self esteem then simply teaching to respect and obey and using the ‘evil eye’ from time to time.

And no, I’m not a parent, but that doesn’t make me wrong. I work with and have worked with a lot of kids from alot of different backgrounds and I currently take a two year old to noon mass with me several days a week. Not the same by a long shot because it’s half the length…but then again, when there are only 1 or 2 dozen people in attendance…every little noise is heard by all…and there is no music to mask anything and even communal prayers will not mask the noises of a toddler if she wants to be heard. (luckily, she’s pretty quiet).

 

[ChristIsLord]

I’m the BOSS" urrrr big tough boss man

That’s exactly right. I know it sounds cruel…you got lucky with your son…as many parents do with their first one…but it sounds like this one has a strong will…which is a good thing…but it requires different parenting tactics…and an iron fist is one of them…and it’s hard…especially when they look up at you with those big puppy dog eyes and those big dragon tears start welling up…and the chin…who can resist the chin…when it starts quivering. But you can laugh or cry about it later…when she starts testing you…which she will do (is already…but it will get worse)…you gotta stand your ground and not budge. This is for her safety (when she thinks it’s funny to run from you in a busy parking lot) AND for her self esteem…the unruley child gets mostly negative attention from the adults around them and that is going to do alot more to damage her self esteem then simply teaching to respect and obey and using the ‘evil eye’ from time to time.

And no, I’m not a parent, but that doesn’t make me wrong. I work with and have worked with a lot of kids from alot of different backgrounds and I currently take a two year old to noon mass with me several days a week. Not the same by a long shot because it’s half the length…but then again, when there are only 1 or 2 dozen people in attendance…every little noise is heard by all…and there is no music to mask anything and even communal prayers will not mask the noises of a toddler if she wants to be heard. (luckily, she’s pretty quiet).

It doesn’t make you wrong but it does make you wholely unqualified to encourange parents to hit their 2 year old daughters.

Listen, the very idea of bullying or hitting my 25 pound two year old daughter is so far beyond anything I would even consider doing I can only laugh at the mental picture in my head.

I don’t even lay a hand on my dogs and they listen to me like I was the voice of God Himself. And when they were puppies they didn’t listen to anything either…

 

[wanner47]

There’s a huge difference between children simply making noise and being totally disruptive. The former is fine, and even expected, at Mass; the latter is extremely inappropriate. I wonder if these same parents would have let their child scream and carry on as s/he did if they’d been at a movie theater or concert or some other public event where quiet was expected. Somehow, I think not. The difference is that at concerts and movie theaters, the ushers have the power to kick patrons out for being disruptive, but parents know that won’t happen at Mass.

I personally think that if the noise was to the point where no one could hear, he should have asked one of the ushers to intervene – e.g., have them quietly ask the family if they could take the child out until s/he calmed down, so that the other parishoners could hear Father.

The place for children of any age is in Mass, not in a cry room or nursery. How are children going to learn about and be exposed to the Mass if they’re given the expectation that they don’t have to go from their earliest age? I’m baffled by people who let their kids stay at home or play in a nursery for 7 years, and then are surprised when their kid doesn’t want to sit through Mass with them, or go to Sunday School.

My daughter and son have been at Mass almost each Sunday during their lives. Sure, they’ve both made noise, but if either get to the point of being disruptive, they’re taken out. My son’s pretty easy to pacify at this point, but my daughter has had a few times where she’s been on the verge of a full-blown tantrum and we’ve always taken her out. My children are being raised with the expectation that, barring illness or another grave reason, we *will *be in Mass every Sunday, and they *will *behave during Mass.

If my daughter starts getting loud (e.g., starts throwing a tantrum), she’s taken out until she can calm down. There has been more than one Mass where I or my husband has taken her out before the gospel and not gotten back into the sanctuary until Mass was over, but our daughter quickly learned that if she misbehaves, it doesn’t get her anything – rather than sitting in church with mom and dad, she still has to sit outside of church with mom and dad, which is just as boring; she’s not allowed to bring any toys with if we take her out, so she loses out on those.

It took a lot of times of taking her out, but now, at nearly 4, she is extremely well-behaved during Mass, to the point where we get compliments about her behavior on a regular basis from other parishoners.

 

[wifenmommy]

There’s a huge difference between children simply making noise and being totally disruptive. The former is fine, and even expected, at Mass; the latter is extremely inappropriate. I wonder if these same parents would have let their child scream and carry on as s/he did if they’d been at a movie theater or concert or some other public event where quiet was expected. Somehow, I think not. The difference is that at concerts and movie theaters, the ushers have the power to kick patrons out for being disruptive, but parents know that won’t happen at Mass.
So true!!! Such a good point!!
I personally think that if the noise was to the point where no one could hear, he should have asked one of the ushers to intervene – e.g., have them quietly ask the family if they could take the child out until s/he calmed down, so that the other parishoners could hear Father.
We dont have ushers! The only time I have seen ushers is at a wedding! lol!
The place for children of any age is in Mass, not in a cry room or nursery. I agree~dh and I invested a lot of time when dd was a baby/toddler teaching her how to behave during Mass~now at 8 years old, she behaves perfectly all the time and has been doing so for years… How are children going to learn about and be exposed to the Mass if they’re given the expectation that they don’t have to go from their earliest age?I soooo agree! I’m baffled by people who let their kids stay at home or play in a nursery for 7 years, and then are surprised when their kid doesn’t want to sit through Mass with them, or go to Sunday School. I dont understand it either! Dd has behaved so wonderful in Mass and “gets it” from an early age. To an extent that she made her First Holy Communion 2 years early…

My daughter and son have been at Mass almost each Sunday during their lives. Sure, they’ve both made noise, but if either get to the point of being disruptive, they’re taken out.Us too! My son’s pretty easy to pacify at this point, but my daughter has had a few times where she’s been on the verge of a full-blown tantrum and we’ve always taken her out. My children are being raised with the expectation that, barring illness or another grave reason, we *will *be in Mass every Sunday, and they *will *behave during Mass.

If my daughter starts getting loud (e.g., starts throwing a tantrum), she’s taken out until she can calm down. There has been more than one Mass where I or my husband has taken her out before the gospel and not gotten back into the sanctuary until Mass was over, but our daughter quickly learned that if she misbehaves, it doesn’t get her anything – rather than sitting in church with mom and dad, she still has to sit outside of church with mom and dad, which is just as boring; she’s not allowed to bring any toys with if we take her out, so she loses out on those. Can you come to my parish and give a lesson or two to this family that apparently doesnt know any better?

It took a lot of times of taking her out, but now, at nearly 4, she is extremely well-behaved during Mass, to the point where we get compliments about her behavior on a regular basis from other parishoners.

Good job!! I am right there with ya!

 

[mercygate]

My daughter is fine, she gets better as learns to communicate better.

I would never put my hands on my daughter it destroys childrens self-esteem. Much of what a child will become is infused in them by three years old. I never laid a hand on my son and he was perfectly behaved.

My daughter is just a little terror, she’ll grow out of it, your idea of parenting isn’t very appealing and it’s very antiquated and not recommended by essentially everyone, who would hit a tiny little girl between 18 months and two years old and think that is the way to raise a child? My father slapped me around when I was younger and it crushed my spirit and destroyed our relationship, I’ll never hit or bully my kids, my son is going on 8 and very respectful and bright.

Off topic: you might find Jim Dobson’s book, The Strong Willed Child, helpful at some point. Kids tend to be born hard wired for life; your DD’s behavior will doubtless modulate with time but the fundamental attitude will likely remain and require constant attention.

 

[MarieVeronica]

These are not meant to be attacks, but food for thought…

Who decides what is fair for the rest of the congregation? The loudest members? How do *you *(plural you) know what is best for the congregation?

Again, people don’t have any clue what is going on in the minds of these parents. We don’t know the situation or circumstances.

Two good analogies here are the mentally or physically handicapped.

Are you going to send a person away because they make outbursts in the middle of Mass? People with mental disabilities, often look very normal… so what if you can’t tell why they’re behaving this way?

What if someone has a physical handicap that makes them jerk uncontrollably, and perhaps they fall to the floor from time to time. Shall we send them away also because you are “distracted”?

Worry less about what others are doing at Mass and focus on what you ought to be focusing on.

Are you ready to make another’s cross heavier because you are inconvenienced?

Katherine, I’m sorry if you found my opinion offensive. But I really do believe that hairs are being split, with these comparisons.

We are talking about plain old, common courtesy. A screaming infant can not be compared to a person, with Tourette’s (for example). That person can certainly not control the effects of their disease. And most people, (I believe) being logical… would certainly not be upset or disrupted by someone with TS.

I’m not sure what the implications were… when you say we can’t know what is going on in the minds of parents who refuse to walk their child outside of the church, while the baby is crying. What does that mean? Help me to understand.

I come from a time… when “crying rooms” were placed inside the church for this reason. These provisions were in no way made, to somehow segregate parents and young children from the Mass… but rather, to ensure the solemnity of the Mass, itself… AND for the care of the child and parent. A continually screaming child or infant… is obviously in some sort of distress… and needs to be attended to.

I wasn’t referring to the occasional “outburst” from babies and small children… which no one minds! In fact… those are often a source of great delight. But it seems to me… that a parent, who allows his/her child to scream… unchecked, during Mass is not attending to the needs of the child. And in the process, disrupting the Mass for those around them.

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion. God bless.