Extreme disruptions during Mass

[happymommy]

I can only laugh at the glad handing between several posters here on their parentign skills while they essential call anyone with kids who have behavioral problems “bad parents”… Jeesh you’re going to get sore from all the back patting and throwing others under the bus going on here.

If I was two and smacked for misbehaving I would sit still too, but it wouldn’t be for the right reasons it would be because I fear my parents.

I’ve never smacked any of my children at church. I’ve never had too. I remove them from mass, tell what they have done wrong and that we will stay in the back until they can behave. The Sanctuary is surrounded by windows, so I stand in the vestibule and continue with my worship. The child has been removed from bothering anyone else and I continue to kneel and pray with everyone else. When they calm down we go back with our family. There’s never threats or spankings.

 

[sarah_anne_628]

No I’ve explained I don’t take my daughter to Mass at all, she doesn’t shriek for an hour or anything, but I’ve found even talking, shifting, leaving the aisle every now again brings back wayyyy too many uncomfortable stares from the “perfect parents” or even older folks with no kids at the family mass in the crowd, who turn thier nose down at you because they were either blessed with a kid like my son, or they don’t remember how bad toddlers can be, they don’t call it terrible twos for nothing.

I can’t help but think that this is part of the case with this thread.

Is it possible that alot of the “stares” were just curious glances. People naturally look in the direction from where a noise came to see what it was…and perhaps you didn’t see how they really reacted because you were tending to your child. I’m sure some people were glaring…but there’s just always gonna be people like that. But I know I have glanced a child who made a sudden noise and the parents weren’t looking at me when I smiled or chuckled and I was worried they would think I was giving them a dirty look.

Besides, the behavior you are describing here is not that bad and you’re right…people are just going to have to deal with it. You shouldn’t have to change.

But that’s not the behavior that the OP was talking about…she was talking about extremely disruptive behavior.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Not a parent yet, but I’d agree with many other posters here. Squeaks are okay, understandable, and even expected! Sustained bellering, talking, and other noisy disruption is not, and should not be tolerated. Take 'em out immediately! The longer you wait, the more impatient others get (no matter how charitable they are), and the greater the embarrassment when you finally do take control of the situation.

Taking them out immediately and consistently sends the following message:
“Something I’m doing is not acceptable and the consequence is being removed from church.”

If they act up out of need, it should give you a chance to work on the problem immediately (hungry, has to go potty, has a tummy ache, her shoes hurt, sound system too loud) or for next time (don’t sit near scary man who stares and grins, make sure she had her nap).

Now, if they don’t want to be there and they act up in order to be removed (or get your personal attention, or others’ attention), then you need to send the message that it is more desirable to be in church behaving appropriately than it is sitting out here with an angry Mom or Dad, and that being “out here” means we still have to kneel and do all the things we would do “in there.” Maybe the consequence is losing a favorite toy for a few days, or not going to Show-Biz, or the threat (or actualization) of “getting something to cry about.”

If they’re bored (most likely), then keep them engaged on the Mass! I never got cheerios and dolls to play with. I was allowed a couple of children’s religious picture books. Mostly, I remember these things:

0.) We ALWAYS went to Mass. Not negotiable.
1.) I always had to sit between Mom and Dad, usually with kneeler down. There was no escape to the aisle or under the pew.
2.) We always got there early enough to sit in the front row, so I thought everybody was watching me, even the priest! It was OK to stand on the kneeler to watch. Coats and purses went on the unused pew in front, so I couldn’t be distracted.
3.) It was expected that I copy Mom and Dad in standing, sitting, kneeling, sitting, walking to communion, and singing. When the priest talked forever (homily), it was OK to rest my head on Mom for awhile. It was OK to whisper or get Mom’s attention EXCEPT during the Eucharistic Prayer.
4.) My folks made a game out of following along in the missalette by pointing to the correct page number, well before I could read (or count). I could recognize shapes and blocks of text and caught on to the familiar pattern of flipping pages. In time I tried to trace my finger while the text was spoken, and while I didn’t get the meaning, I was at some level reading along. I think this helped accelerate my reading skills and vocabulary. To this day I am haunted by the word “recompense”
5.) If I got too noisy, talkative, or wormy, I would be swiftly taken out, and I “knew” that was not good. I would also hear about it all the way home, and maybe the next week, too.

Maybe that’s a lot of structure for a kid, but I think it served me well. I caught on to the Mass and the prayers pretty quickly, and because of this (or in spite of being sandwiched) I signed up to be an altar server at the first opportunity, which didn’t hurt me any! It too kept me very engaged and learning.

I can’t BELIEVE what happened at the Milwaukee Irish Fest Mass this year. There are thousands of people in this ampitheater (which projects sound well), and lots of families with kids and babies which make the occasional local noises. But a couple with 2 kids and a baby sit almost directly a row behind us (knee level at our ear level) and let one of their kids scream at the top of her lungs for the greater part of the 1h45m mass. It wasn’t the baby, either. It was about a 2-3 yr. old girl who could form simple sentences and was clearly big enough to know better. They let her holler through the scriptures, the Gospel, the homily, the intentions, and the Eucharistic Prayer. About the only time she shut up was when people were singing, because I think she knew she couldn’t compete! And then during some announcements after Communion, she kept asking “Over? Mommy, is over now?” There were two parents, they were reasonably close to the exit and NOBODY was seated in their way to the stairs, so there was really no excuse for one of them not taking her out at the first (or second…or fifth…or tenth…) sign that this was going to keep happening.

 

[Apryl]

Where was the priest while this circus was going on? Is he deaf? Has anyone spoken to him about the situation?

Priests have enough going on… sometimes, they want to just be kind to the people that are having the issues.

Let’s be real: noisy children are not between us and the priests… it’s between parishoners… and adults at that. We have to work out some of our issues.

Ok, let’s put the priest in there (just for grins). What do you get him to say? ‘You need to control the noise of your child and be respectful to the rest of the congregation’, or ‘you need to learn how to ignore this child and concentrate more on your presence in the mass.’

Now what? Is any one really any happier? Don’t the adults involved still have to deal with each other?

 

[Apryl]

To the OP - if they are there again next Sunday (they may not be if they got lots of dirty looks from their nearest neighbours) why not reach out and offer your friendship? Chalk last Sunday up to experience and move on.

At my church, we’ve had people to say ‘would you like me to holld the baby for a few minutes?’, or to offer the parent/child a quiet toy.

Seems those people that are the offenders still get upset, and still feel offended with the offers.

 

[Apryl]

How come there is no nursery in Catholic churches?? There is a little church for 4-5 but nothing before…perhaps because they do not want to be considered “babysitting” service?? I did not put that into words the way I wanted but I have been wondering why there is only a “cry room”

Thanks!

Good question. I don’t know, but my guess would have to be that mass is typically between 45 minutes and 75 minutes. It’s shorter. And mass includes all the parts of the mass, so if you take someone out for a section regularly, they aren’t getting the mass.

My church doesn’t even have a ‘cry room’. We have a rest room in the back, and there is the vestibule on the way to the rest room. What more do you need?

 

[sarah_anne_628]

At my church, we’ve had people to say ‘would you like me to holld the baby for a few minutes?’, or to offer the parent/child a quiet toy.

Seems those people that are the offenders still get upset, and still feel offended with the offers.

This is true.

But in their defense…but when a person, particuarly a mother, takes her child out in public…even a well behaved child…there will always be someone who has something critical to say and have no problems saying it to the mother’s face.
“That baby doesn’t have enough layers on”
“That baby has too many layers on”
“You shouldn’t do this, you should do that”
Yada, yada, yada.
Everyone seems to know better than you how to raise your kids.
(I’m not even a mom and I’ve seen people talk to my friends who are like this…and even ME when I’ve been babysitting and they thought it was my kid)

So I don’t blame moms at being defensive when they honestly need an extra pair of hands. Your intentions are suspect to them and they are embarrassed.

 

[Apryl]

This is true.

But in their defense…but when a person, particuarly a mother, takes her child out in public…even a well behaved child…there will always be someone who has something critical to say and have no problems saying it to the mother’s face.

So what should we that see the problem do? Let them wallow in the problem? or offer assistance?

 

[sarah_anne_628]

So what should we that see the problem do? Let them wallow in the problem? or offer assistance?

Hard to say. I don’t know.

I guess just make sure our heart is in the right place, offer assistance and let them think what they are going to think. At least we know we did the right thing…and there’s always a chance that we made a new friend!!!

 

[VivienneJ]

This genuine old biddy would like to comment here (if 55 qualifies you to be an old biddy). I had two daughters, a goody-two-shoes and two years later a real challenge (who would probably have been an only child had she been first ) Let me also say that I love to hear the gurgling of babies and the voices of young children in church, even “Mommy, is it over yet?” but not at such a volume that it is all I can hear, even at a family service.

The churches I attended when my girls were small were not Catholic (that ony came a short while ago), neither had a cry room, both had a garden.

If either girl got rowdy I’d remove her to the garden for a version of ‘time out’. Either a Mom lecture, or just a moment to change the gear.

I felt I had a responsibility to bring my children to church, but at the same time a responsibility to ensure that my fellow church-goers were able to concentrate on the service.

I made sure that no noisy toys came to church and all noisy objects were out of sight. (This meant removing my younger daughter’s shoes in church when she found how much noise she could make on a wooden pew with shoes!)

Along with the right to be in church comes the responsibility to behave appropriately.

Just to get back to the OP’s description of the incident, how would anyone feel if they were having a party for their child and one of the children who came to the party screamed and yelled for a whole hour?

 

[Newbie2]

ChristIsLord;4471639:

My daughter simply doesn’t listen, she is two and will not sit still, she will throw things, make noises etc… The entire Mass without any concern for if we approve or not. Peoples reactions are why we no longer attend Mass as a family because we can’t take our daughter, people just aren’t patient enough. And typically it’s people who are there alone or older people without kids and I wonder why they come to the family Mass only to get upset at the people with small children?
I DO have a small child and in no way would I allow this type of behavior~we have worked with dd to where she KNOWS she had better behave in Mass~no excuses or exceptions…We ARE a family we should be able to go to Mass and not have a unruly child shrieking the ENTIRE time…that is asking kinda much isnt it???

My son was always very good in Church even as a little boy, my daughter is an absolute nightmare in public, and we can’t take her and be comfortable. If you knew my daughter you would know nothing can be done to quell her behavior she will have to simply grow out of it.
Is there a cryroom at your church? Maybe use that…
I will add that this DID not happen in the Lutheran Church we attended, people smiled and laughed at her and they had a room where she could be entertained. In the Catholic Church we got the absolute look of death from people.
Maybe that could be that Jesus isnt present in the Eucharist in a Lutheran Church…I dont understand why people choose not to even try to discipline thier kids, they will blame it on the people around them that they arent “patient” enough. I am a very very patient person…would you like it if you had a child shrieking to the top of their lungs for an hour? How about being considerate of other parishiners?
I would say if your kids are old enough go to a later Mass.I QUOTE]
My family should be able to go to a FAMILY Mass with out having to endure a screamng banshee. If that is the case, pretty soon this rude parent and child will be the only ones left in that Mass:shrug:

Um…Lutherans believe in the real presence at the Eucharist in the form of consubstantiation. But saying that their belief is different doesn’t explain tolerance for a shrieking child, nor does painting all of Lutherandom with such a broad brush.

Anyway, there’s introducing children to mass and putting up with some mild disruption and there’s what the OP described. If it recurs, I’d suggest talking to an usher or the priest after mass. Certainly children add to our community at mass, but there are limits.

 

[SeekerJen]

This genuine old biddy would like to comment here (if 55 qualifies you to be an old biddy). I had two daughters, a goody-two-shoes and two years later a real challenge (who would probably have been an only child had she been first ) Let me also say that I love to hear the gurgling of babies and the voices of young children in church, even “Mommy, is it over yet?” but not at such a volume that it is all I can hear, even at a family service.

Yeah, I usually just crack up when I hear some of the asides that come out of little ones’ mouths. Like the 4-yo niece of one of our choir members, who sat with aunt K in the choir risers and exhibited model behavior throughout Mass until the elevation of the host, at which point we heard a very excited: “Aunt K, aunt K, look, it’s Jesus!” “I know, honey, but we need to be quiet now.”

Or the little girl behind me one Sunday, who was great until we got to the homily, which was a bit too much for her. Her father tried to reason with her until she finally belted out “NO! I don’t WANNA watch church!” (At this point those of us in several pews on either side nearly lost it and laughed out loud.) He then proceeded to pick her up and carry her out of the pew, and he must have told her they were going out until she calmed down because the next thing we heard was “NOOOO! I don’t WANNA leave!”

Huge difference between these and the situation described in the OP.

I made sure that no noisy toys came to church and all noisy objects were out of sight. (This meant removing my younger daughter’s shoes in church when she found how much noise she could make on a wooden pew with shoes!)

Thank you. I had occasion to endure a Mass in which a toddler sat on her mother’s lap and kicked the back of my pew during all seated portions of the Mass. I couldn’t hear the readings over that, plus it hurt after a few minutes. I didn’t dare say anything to the mother because of the reaction I expect to get from parents now.

 

[Nordar]

If your brat “does not have the ability to focus and listen to anything at that age” THEN LEAVE HER THE HECK HOME UNTIL SHE DOES. Mass is not a three ring circus in which we all show up to see your child perform.

I so hate to hear a child called a Brat! I mean I really really hate it!

 

[Nordar]

LOL do any of you actually have kids? Or do you just play parental adviser on the internet? My 18 month needs to know “I’m the BOSS” urrrr big tough boss man, she’s a tiny little thing, she wouldn’t even know why she’s being hit, you guys are nuts I hope you don’t have children…

I’m with you, spanking children is so abusive and needless, especially like you said “she is a tiny little thing”. How’s about an 8 foot giant spanking the ones who suggest spanking!

 

[VivienneJ]

Yeah, I usually just crack up when I hear some of the asides that come out of little ones’ mouths.

Made me think of an Anglican friend’s 4 year old the first time he really heard the words “eat his body and drink his blood”… into the solemn silence boomed his young voice “Drink his blood! Yeugh!”

 

[jmcrae]

I’m with you, spanking children is so abusive and needless, especially like you said “she is a tiny little thing”. How’s about an 8 foot giant spanking the ones who suggest spanking!

Hey, if nothing else was getting through to me, I’d probably need it.

Nobody is suggesting that you spank your child at the first sign of trouble.

If you have ascertained that there is no actual problem - she’s dry, she’s full, and she’s comfortable - and you’ve reasoned, and cajoled ,and bribed, and threatened, and the kid is still yelling and screaming and throwing things, then a little smack on the behind with the open palm of your hand might just be what it takes to bring her back to reality.

 

[Joan_M]

I’m with you, spanking children is so abusive and needless, especially like you said “she is a tiny little thing”. How’s about an 8 foot giant spanking the ones who suggest spanking!

Obviously, you have no idea how spanking should be done! Spanking is not abusive. It can be necessary. It is certainly not needless. Most children need some spanking in order to help them become disciplined.

I so hate to hear a child called a Brat! I mean I really really hate it!

Some, usually those who did not get spanked when it was necessary, are brats. A brat is an undisciplined child who behaves badly and is not corrected.

 

[Nordar]

Obviously, you have no idea how spanking should be done! Spanking is not abusive. It can be necessary. It is certainly not needless. Most children need some spanking in order to help them become disciplined.

Some, usually those who did not get spanked when it was necessary, are brats. A brat is an undisciplined child who behaves badly and is not corrected.

Being the mother of 4 grown children who now have children of their own (and do not spank). I never laid a hand on any of my children, never spanked them ( because I think it is abusive) which incidentally is my right to feel that way. I have a very good idea of how spanking should be done, it is not necessary and is definately needless.
A brat is a horrible and needless word to call any child!

I did not raise Brats. I raised children who turned into well adjusted and contributing adults.

 

[VivienneJ]

Obviously, you have no idea how spanking should be done! Spanking is not abusive. It can be necessary. It is certainly not needless. Most children need some spanking in order to help them become disciplined.

At the risk of derailing this thread with another funny story:

My brother-in-law was a lay priest in his church (not a Catholic one, obviously). One Sunday he had watched his wife struggling with their extremely willful second child. He was a very impulsive man and eventually couldn’t carry on being an observer; he stopped preaching, strode down to the pew, put his daughter over his knee and delivered one smack to her well padded behind. She was so surprised that Daddy had stopped what he was doing to smack her that she was as good as gold immediately. I suspect that every other restless child in the congregation was told for a long time after that if they didn’t behave he’d come down and smack them like they saw the other Sunday!

Beating a child is wrong, wrong, wrong. BUT there are times when a healthy child needs a well-delivered smack to get the point about what is and is not acceptable.

 

[NancyCNM]

Hmm. I have read almost all of the posts.

I wonder if the original poster was genuinely asking for ideas or wanting a cheering section for an opinion (ie support) that may be perhaps a bit self-righteous?

Posters calling children “brats”? calling older folks “biddies” ?

Many of the replies have been totally disrepectful, totally judgmental, and largely unchristian in general. Good grief- who would want to be a Catholic, let alone have children if they were met with this kind of response on a routine basis? Did no one ever hear of CHARITY?

I read about folks worried about how they feel and appearances and opinions on childrearing, when not one person, aside from the original poster was even at the church in question. Then one person dares to say that her children might not be perfect, and she is then accused of faulty childrearing by what appears to be an “internet mob” on a supposedly Catholic/Christian forum???

Do you not realize that YOU will be judged, as you are judging others???

When Christ came to earth- He did it as a baby- He was concieved to an UNWED mother (gasp!) to those looking from the outside-, He chose a POOR family, He associated himself with the worst of sinners- thieves, liars, adulterers, people possessed by Satan and other demons, people in rags, without shoes…When the disciples were going to send away the children- it was because THEY thought it was not the proper place or time - Christ very clearly said otherwise. Children are children, and are very seldom perfectly behaved. Christ did not say “only those behaving well”.

There are no cry-rooms in many churches- NOT because of lack of foresight or funding, but because no one should be separated from the Body of Christ- WE are the body- ALL of us, ESPECIALLY children. Children or anyone else should not be separated from Christ. Take the phrase "suffer the little children’ seriously.

If you are upset- don’t think for an instant that the parents of that misbehaving child are not usept as well. Parents are obligated to bring their children to church- to Christ- and ultimately to steer them in the direction of Heaven. WE are obligated to help each other, even “annoying” or “distracting” children.

If you REALLY care- if you REALLY want to make a difference- offer to help.

• A child will often behave better at the behest of a complete stranger
  *Offer to take the child in YOUR arms
  *Offer a book or quiet toy
  *Offer a stern look to the child, especially if you note that the parents are trying to correct the child and he/she is not paying attention. Most parents will be grateful that they have the support- but please give a kind understanding look to the parent’s.
• point out the angels on the altar
  *point out pictures on the wall
  *Volunteer to do a children’s “liturgy of the word”- the parents can listen to the readings, the gospels, the homily- then the children can be brought back during the offering/before the Creed.
  *During a Regular mass/liturgy- ask if the children can come up to the steps of the Altar during the readings and homily. Ask the priest to address the adults AND the children.Many Eastern Catholic Churches do this all the time. Moms with young children should be welcomed to. This way the children will be included, and not be bored…

And finally- ASK the poster who no longer feels like she can bring her child to church to please come back! Children learn what they live-children need to be included in church, they need to be familiar with the “culture” of Christ. 18 mo old is still a baby. Shame on you who think otherwise. Singing, music, sights, mom being happy, others being happy and experiencing the communial worship and praise- these all need to be rooted in children when they are young. We should yearn for our youngest members to think of christian living in terms of joy in spite of pain and sorrow and troubles - and in spite of distractions of whatever sort during mass.

The joy and experience of Christ comes from within you-from you asking Him into your heart- asking for the enlightenment, knowledge, and comfort of the Holy Spirit, and of experiencing the love of God in your lives-

If you are waiting to go to church to get those things- then you have it all wrong.