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jmcrae
Guest
You do realize we are talking about the Temple, right? Children were only allowed in the outer courtyard (so were women, presumably to care for the children) - only the adult men were actually allowed inside.
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pnewton
Guest
Yes, the outer court, where merchants, Gentiles, women and children could be. This is where the cleansing took place. The children were not ejected, only the dishonest merchants.
As far as children not being allowed in the inner court, that was judaism. If we use this as a model for Mass, then women can not attend Mass either.
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jmcrae
Guest
Jewish children are exceptionally well trained, as well, I’ve noticed.
What this story provides us with is the demeanor that God expects from us at worship. Screaming, shouting, running up and down, banging hard objects on the pews, letting animals run loose everywhere, having a marketplace mentality, etc., is not what God is looking for, in terms of our worship of Him.
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pnewton
Guest
I agree with you, at least as far as the narrative literal interpretted goes. We should not let animals run loose in Church.
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wifenmommy
Guest
I am just curious as to why you would seem to think that a quick run to the cry room is out of order when a child is being extremely disruptive? I am certainly not saying that the child should be kept out the entire time. just until he/she quiets down.
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wifenmommy
Guest
To the OP - I hope Mass was a better experience for you today. Did the disruptive child attend? Did you say hello to the parents?Thanks for asking!Actually, we attended a later evening Mass in the neighboring town.It is a very small church, but a really wonderful congregation and Priest (not that “my” parish doesnt!!) and for the amount of children that attend this Mass it was amazingly quiet!!! They had to have had 30 children that came up after Mass for their bulletins and blessings!!!:extrahappy: :whackadoo: :extrahappy:
I hope you took Nancy’s latest points on board and don’t feel as if you were being singled out for criticism, we’ve all had our two-penn’orth on this thread, maybe it’s time to let go.I am wondering the same. I like the discussion aspects of this topic though!
have been reading about Catholic soldiers in the Second World War attending Mass at the battlefront, the altar on the bonnet (hood) of a jeep and heavy artillery going off a few hundred yards away. Now, that WAS extreme disruption during Mass!Talk about devotion too!!!
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pnewton
Guest
I haven’t. I don’t. I think it is a great idea and one I used. Once in a blue moon I will even have to step outside, and that will always involve a spanking. However, I tend to not judge others that have disruptive kids because I do not know their situation. Last time I said something about a child (in jest) I found out that the mother was new to the parish after a long absent from the Church. Heck, she may not have even known what a cry room is. Given enough time and some patience from the parishoners, they will figure it out. The priest may also have to give some subtle guidance. But in the meantime, we should all be understanding.
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Lujack
Guest
Another possibility is that the parents simply froze. I know I’ve seen it. Sometimes, people just lock up and don’t know what to do, or fear they’ll be even more disruptive by jumping up or going to the cry room.
I understand the irritation with the disruption, but the parents could have been equally mortified, and stunned.
I understand the irritation with the disruption, but the parents could have been equally mortified, and stunned.
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wifenmommy
Guest
I guess I just assumed (we all know about assuming…
) that our Church was so small and family-like that nobody would be embarrased to leave out to take care of thier child. We are a family friendly Church, but this particular situation was out of hand! Maybe these parents assumed that since we are so small and family friendly that no one would be bothered by a screaming child. I dunno~but if it was ME I would not have subjected my fellow parishners to my darlings’ tantrum!
) that our Church was so small and family-like that nobody would be embarrased to leave out to take care of thier child. We are a family friendly Church, but this particular situation was out of hand! Maybe these parents assumed that since we are so small and family friendly that no one would be bothered by a screaming child. I dunno~but if it was ME I would not have subjected my fellow parishners to my darlings’ tantrum!
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sarah_anne_628
Guest
I’d be curious to know if that family came back (were they new or did you not get to see who it was?) and if their child(ren) were disruptive. It might have just been a really bad day for the whole family.
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Debutante
Guest
In some cases, “disruptive behavior” by children may be the result of developmental disabilities. You’d be amazed how many people can’t recognize Autism or Tourette’s (for example).
In other cases (adult) there might be physical or psychological reasons. For example: When I was a child, a middle-aged gentleman in our parish would frequently begin screaming in pain and running up and down the aisles. I remember asking my parents what that was about and was told that he had been injured in WW2 and had a metal plate in his head which occasionally caused him excrutiating pain. Because most of the parishoners knew the “why” – this interrruption was overlooked every time it occurred by the parish priest and the congregation. The mass paused and resumed when the gentleman’s pain subsided. The few extra moments for this was not begrudged by anyone who made an effort to understand.
Perhaps the best way to handle such “interruptions” is to say a prayer for the person(s) involved. They may have far more on their plate than is surface apparent.
In other cases (adult) there might be physical or psychological reasons. For example: When I was a child, a middle-aged gentleman in our parish would frequently begin screaming in pain and running up and down the aisles. I remember asking my parents what that was about and was told that he had been injured in WW2 and had a metal plate in his head which occasionally caused him excrutiating pain. Because most of the parishoners knew the “why” – this interrruption was overlooked every time it occurred by the parish priest and the congregation. The mass paused and resumed when the gentleman’s pain subsided. The few extra moments for this was not begrudged by anyone who made an effort to understand.
Perhaps the best way to handle such “interruptions” is to say a prayer for the person(s) involved. They may have far more on their plate than is surface apparent.
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Apryl
Guest
This thread reminded me of the story that ABC television did on a family where the ‘boy’ was autistic, and the priest wound up asking the family to not come to mass. It was more than just ‘disruptions’, by the way, and it served mostly to embarrass the church because the family should have realized his outbursts were more than any one should be expected to tolerate.
But the situation you’re describing is MOMENTS of interruption… not 30 - 55 minutes of mass… which in many cases is all of it.
I would hope that people could tolerate moments of interruption, esp when they know this will pass.
When there is no end in sight though…
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m134e5
Guest
The OP really should have talked to the priest about the particular incident. Although we need to be patient with those who have kids at Mass (and sometimes our patience will be tried and we should just offer it up), allowing one’s child to scream throughout the entire Mass is unacceptable. The priest should have addressed the situation when it became clear that it wasn’t going to be just a few screams for a few minutes.
If a baby coos for awhile, or laughs or yells a few times, it’s not that big a deal. When it goes on for more than a few minutes, it’s time to try and get them to be quiet (taking them outside for a minute if need be- or it could just mean holding them- or changing their position). Crying and screaming aren’t as tolerable. If they don’t stop that in about a minute- and saying something to them, giving them a stuffed animal, or pacifier, moving to another place in the church, or something doesn’t help, please take them out.
If a baby coos for awhile, or laughs or yells a few times, it’s not that big a deal. When it goes on for more than a few minutes, it’s time to try and get them to be quiet (taking them outside for a minute if need be- or it could just mean holding them- or changing their position). Crying and screaming aren’t as tolerable. If they don’t stop that in about a minute- and saying something to them, giving them a stuffed animal, or pacifier, moving to another place in the church, or something doesn’t help, please take them out.
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zab
Guest
There have been very few times when I was annoyed with the behavior of a child at Mass. Did the parents handled the situation as well as I would have? Maybe not, but we all have to learn sometime. It is a humbling thing not to have control of your little one. At home you may handle it differently. But in public, everyone is looking to criticize no matter what you do. And a young parent can feel overwhelmed. I am just thankful that my children are grown and I am not the one who has to handle the situation.
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NaturalEnquirer
Guest
I’m several pages behind the thread – please forgive me if I’m rehashing old ground.
Are you honestly saying that the behavior of ordinary 2 year olds can’t be affected by parenting techniques? I’m not necessarily advocating spanking (although I’m not opposed to it either), but there is a variety of corrective actions available.
I think you’ll find that you’re in a clear minority of parents if you are claiming that 2 year olds’ behavior is out of your hands.
I’ll certainly grant you that older kids are easier to discipline. As they start to understand longer and longer time frames, you can introduce promises of future consequences, which helps so much. Instead of punishing on the spot, you can say “If you don’t stop that right now, I will _____ when we get home.” For my kid, that blank is usually the promise of not allowing her to read for a while, since that’s her favorite activity.
But that doesn’t mean that with younger kids you throw up your hands and let them do whatever they want. Redirection is a great tool. I remember times in years past, when my daughter was running out of patience at Mass, I would sit her on my lap and play little finger games with her. Like whispering, “Where’s my index finger?”, and let her point. “Where’s my pinky?” Let her point.
A handful of people might find these whispered exchanges to be too much for the sacred silence, but I think they’re in the minority. The point is, when your kid is acting up, do something.
God bless.
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zab
Guest
Good tips. I like the whispering technique. It usually worked for me too. And they imitate by whispering back, not talking loudly.
We could do more good by giving tips on how we learned to handle the little ones than by criticizing the parents.
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NaturalEnquirer
Guest
Yeah, but criticizing is so much more fun.
But seriously folks. I have a big problem with internet forums, even this Catholic one. The anonymity makes it so easy to type something that you would never say face to face. And the absence of non-verbal clues makes it very difficult to spot sarcasm and humor, even with appropriate use of smilies.
I guess I’m going a little bit off-topic. I’m in a kind of rambly mood today.
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jmcrae
Guest
I think it’s good, in that it makes everyone aware of what people are really thinking, and be able to adjust their behaviour accordingly. And it’s anonymous from both ends, don’t forget.Yeah, but criticizing is so much more fun.
But seriously folks. I have a big problem with internet forums, even this Catholic one. The anonymity makes it so easy to type something that you would never say face to face. And the absence of non-verbal clues makes it very difficult to spot sarcasm and humor, even with appropriate use of smilies.
I guess I’m going a little bit off-topic. I’m in a kind of rambly mood today.
If I change my behaviour based on what I perceive on the Internet, nobody in my real life needs to have an awkward conversation with me. It can just be done quietly and without embarrassment.
In fact, no one even need know - they would just notice that I’m behaving correctly now, and think, “Oh, she was just having a bad day the other day. She’s not actually socially inept.”
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NaturalEnquirer
Guest
Well, you’ve got a point. There’s definitely a benefit to the forum, I’m not disputing that. I’m just saying that it grates on me when it gets past a certain point. And that misunderstandings seem to multiply. In the blink of an eye, you go from one poster advocating a controlled swat on a toddler’s bottom to another poster making charges of child abuse.I think it’s good, in that it makes everyone aware of what people are really thinking, and be able to adjust their behaviour accordingly. And it’s anonymous from both ends, don’t forget.
If I change my behaviour based on what I perceive on the Internet, nobody in my real life needs to have an awkward conversation with me. It can just be done quietly and without embarrassment.
In fact, no one even need know - they would just notice that I’m behaving correctly now, and think, “Oh, she was just having a bad day the other day. She’s not actually socially inept.”
Just gets kind of ridiculous sometimes.
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Serap
Guest
My little girl is 16 months and she’s sweet and well behaved and I still get the odd look of death (usually from older women) if my daughter even makes a BOO sound. I am lucky though because my daughter has a natural tendency to be cuddly and relatively quiet.
I agree…hitting a child is so inappropriate. I would rule that out too. If my daughter gets bored and we have to stand up, I sometimes hang her upside down or I whisper in her ear little stories and she giggles. I just try to keep her entertained, so it doesn’t resort to a tantrum.
Do you sit in the front row? I do and my daughter stopped having tantrums. Now that she can see everything, she’s happy and she has room to wander a few feet from me without disrupting mass. If she gets bored, I sometimes point to the paintings, etc and tell her stories.
People expecting children to be quiet is unreasonable.
If my daughter had a temper tantrum, I’d remove give her a time out until she calmed down, but she hasn’t had a tantrum in church for 3 months now since I began sitting in the front row.
PP who expects children to sit in the back row is mean. They can’t see anything or participate in the mass. How are they going to learn anything about mass if they can’t see?
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