Failure to understand the thought process

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Yep, the article makes a case for why the laws were the way they were, but they were basically that way for expediency and political reasons. We would look really bad if we locked up women.

But the other key point in the article is that if Roe is overturned, we will certainly still have abortions as a legal option for women. That simply underscores my position that being a single issue voter on abortion is fruitless, because it won’t stop them. But that is another topic altogether.
 
No, it won’t stop them. On the other hand, when severn Justices overrode the abortion laws of every state in the union, the result was to promote abortion, and pro-abortion judges in state and appellate courts often overturned state restrictions on abortion. And when the Supreme Court says abortion is fine, people think it is okay. So it would certainly be helpful to make abortion a state matter again. Every pro-life organization treats women as victims of abortion, not as criminals. They have counseling available for women who have had abortions.
 
That is where I disagree with them. Not all of them are victims.

Should they have counseling available whether they are a victim or not, certainly.

After our Scout meeting this evening a Deacon and I were discussing the subject. I put out the scenario of a young teenage girl who was raped and her body was in no way capable of handling a pregnancy till term. Should she be punished for seeking an abortion. Both agreed that it would be ludicrous to punish her.

The next step to that is whether she would be justified in taking the life of the fetus to protect her own. The Church allows for one to take another life for self preservation. Would she fall under that exception. That isn’t as easy of a question to answer.
 
I am against punishing women for seeking abortions. Some choose them for convenience, true. But many are bullied into it by family or boyfriends. In the case of teenagers, they are sometimes threatened with being kicked out of their home if they don’t have one. Husbands or boyfriends threaten to leave them.

Added to that, many women don’t realized what happens in an abortion. They have bought into the idea that the fetus can’t feel pain. Seeing an ultrasound of the child changes many women’s minds, because then s/he is real to them.
Doctors know what they are doing, and should be the ones to pay the price.
 
Not to rehash what we have already been through, but, your argument suggest that women are not smart or strong enough to make their own decisions.

Doctors only do what is asked of them. If abortions were banned, doctors wouldn’t be searching the streets for pregnant women and coercing or kidnapping them to perform abortions.

I suppose Eve was a victim too. God made the fruit easily available to her, and that darn serpent lied to her. Guess what, God punished Eve, and Adam for listening to his mate.

See that is the downfall of all men. Listening to women. 😜
 
farronwolf said:
Not to rehash what we have already been through, but, your argument suggest that women are not smart or strong enough to make their own decisions.
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I guess I’m sexist, despite being a woman. Yes, many women are highly intelligent and capable of determining their destiny. However, an awful lot of them, especially young women, are under the thumb of a man, afraid of his anger or of losing him, afraid of living on their own, and give in to demands for abortions.

I’m not talking about college educated liberal elites. They are a small number of women. Read some of the threads about domestic violence. Those women are being beaten and don’t get that it’s not their fault. They are about 30% of the population, and those are just the ones being physically abused.

If abortions were banned, boyfriends would not be demanding that their women get rid of the baby.
 
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I have 8 older sisters. You aren’t telling me anything about what women go through.

I have gone and gotten sisters out of situations which were bad for them. Have gone and had discussions with ex husbands who would not leave them alone after they left. Thankfully they listened and things calmed down. Had they not, well can’t really tell you what would have happened.

Again, your premise is that women are weak, can’t seek help, or whatever. They can, and do, but it is up to them to decide. If they choose not to, no one can help them. Often times they are offered help, yet refuse. Short of kidnapping them to get them out of the situation, not much that can be done.
 
I see this topic got out of hand.

Here’s my thing:

Laws criminalizing things don’t solve problems. They help, to be sure; but they don’t entirely solve them. Here’s why: It all comes down into individual decision, responsibility and conscience. It all boils down to whether or not any given person has the moral compass and responsibility to not act on something.

I happen to agree that women who procure abortions shouldn’t be punished like the doctors who provide these horrifying services. They’re not the problem. The problem is society telling women it’s morally “ allowable “ to kill a helpless human being that human instinct, and God; tells us should be protected. The main villains that should be punished are those who provide the means and services.

Here’s some more thinking: Pregnant women, even in the best of conditions; are freaked out and scared. They desperately need support and reassurance. They need their family, friends and, most importantly the man in their life who got them pregnant; to provide that support and reassurance. Thus, they are vulnerable to others who’d advise and pressure them into abortions.

Solve the individual moral compass problem, solve the horrible social conditioning and go after the abortionists once, I hope to God; it becomes illegal again.

As for the men who father a child: These men should be taught that they when they father a child, they’re responsible for her and the baby and that they should be held responsible for whether or not they live up to that responsibility. Again: It boils down to the individual and his/her moral compass.

I’m reminded about Aristotelian ethics. Aristotle held that politics and ethics are linked. Politics to ensure that social conditions are amenable to the formation of good citizens of good character and ethics to ensure that the individual becomes good. The two go together.

Aristotle taught that culpability lies with the individual who committed an act with full knowledge and intent. A person coerced, by whatever means; aren’t as culpable as someone with full knowledge and intent.

My thinking, following Aristotle; is punish the one with full knowledge and intent or the one who coerced the person into committing the act.

If this sounds familiar; it is. Saint Thomas Aquinas incorporated much of Aristotle’s philosophy into the Summa Theologica and this entered into official Church teaching.
 
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Yes we do, but dealers are typically dealt with much more severely than users. Likewise a doctor providing abortion would be dealt with more severely.
 
Good post, Michael 16! Thoughtful.

All facetiousness aside, I think the reluctance of some to focus on the punishment of women reflects a desire to deflect from the misogyny of the movement which sometimes seems to be motivated more by hatred and fear of women than of concern for the needs of the pregnant. *

NOTE: I am in no way referring to any of the good members of CAF, to whom I charitably attribute more noble motives.
 
The thought process might be:

“Don’t say the quiet part out loud! You’re making us look bad.”
 
Topic in no way got out of hand. Did we show disagreement, yes. Was there a bunch of name calling or nonsense, no.

Lets think about your statements.

Criminalizing doesn’t solve problems. You are right but that doesn’t keep us from criminalizing things.

Boils down to individual responsibility. Absolutely, yet you choose to punish the doctor instead of the individual seeking the abortion. Curious position to me.

Society telling women it is morally allowable. Yet before Roe, abortions were being performed when society thought abortions were wrong. Did they increase after Roe, probably, I guess the numbers are out there.

Pregnant women are freaked out and scared. I didn’t see that behavior when my wife was pregnant, or any of our friends when their wives were pregnant, but then again, we are all still married to our original spouses. I am certain there are many instances when women are freaked out and scared, but my money is they hadn’t made good decisions before finding themselves pregnant. Goes back to #2 individual responsibility.

Men are responsible for the children they create and the women who carry them. I am certain I stated such in a previous post. No argument from me on that.

Acts with full knowledge. This assumes that all women who seek abortions are ignorant or tricked somehow into getting one. I am certain there are cases where that happens, but am also certain that there are cases where it is just a medical procedure and solves the inconvenient pregnancy.

Punish the one with full knowledge and intent, not the one who coerced the person. Ok, go back to my post where I asked who is responsible if the gal asks the guy to steal a purse for her. Who goes to jail. Certainly not the gal. The guy knew what he was doing and will pay the price. Yet again, we go back to #2 and individual responsibility or back to the argument that women are too ignorant to know what they are doing as a blanket excuse for all scenarios.

This has all been covered in previous posts.
 
I have no idea, you might look it up on the interweb.

I did find this lengthy article indicating a 2004 study of which and why women have abortions. The numbers in it are way, way off from what people are saying on this forum. It doesn’t indicate that a large percentage are being pressured by men or family.

It basically boils down to they can’t afford it, they aren’t ready, or have too many kids already, or would interfere with school or work.

 
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farronwolf said:
I have no idea, you might look it up on the interweb.

I did find this lengthy article indicating a 2004 study of which and why women have abortions. The numbers in it are way, way off from what people are saying on this forum. It doesn’t indicate that a large percentage are being pressured by men or family.

It basically boils down to they can’t afford it, they aren’t ready, or have too many kids already, or would interfere with school or work.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf
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In other words it is financial or.psychological pressures. Which are real. Given that women, like men, don’t generally do paid work purely for love, “it will hurt my career” generally means “I may not be able.to financially support the child if I have it”.

Do we hand.out harsh penalties to people who steal because they are in financial need? No, and so we should be at least somewhat sympathetic to those who abort for the same reasons.
 
We do penalize those that steal, whether it is harsh or not depends on the circumstances, the jury or judge decides the punishment based on sentencing guidelines.

Not saying we should not be sympathetic, just questioning why some think there should be no penalty for abortion if it is made illegal.

What would might the sentencing guidelines be?
 
farronwolf said:
We do penalize those that steal, whether it is harsh or not depends on the circumstances, the jury or judge decides the punishment based on sentencing guidelines.

Not saying we should not be sympathetic, just questioning why some think there should be no penalty for abortion if it is made illegal.

What would might the sentencing guidelines be?
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As a lawyer, I.can tell you some convicted thieves get no other punishment, not even having the conviction placed on their criminal.recoeds. much depends on their circumstances and past history.
 
Some is the key word.

The scenario I posted earlier in the thread is a good example of when no punishment would be warranted. There are others I am certain.

After our Scout meeting this evening a Deacon and I were discussing the subject. I put out the scenario of a young teenage girl who was raped and her body was in no way capable of handling a pregnancy till term. Should she be punished for seeking an abortion. Both agreed that it would be ludicrous to punish her.
 
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