Failure to understand the thought process

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@farronwolf

As Saint Thomas would say: So I answer:

I would punish the abortionists and those that advocate and provide the means and services, rather than the woman; because if the means and services were not provided and advocated for; women wouldn’t be killing their babies. In your scenario, you’d be punishing drug users more than you would the drug dealers and drug producers.

Curious position to take; IMHO.

As for mothers’ culpability, I would look at their circumstances and the people around them. What influences and pressures are they exerting on the woman in question? Now, my thinking is that most women procuring abortions do so simply to appease and satisfy relatives and fathers who don’t want the child for whatever reason and that, this is my guess; that they simply get scared and want the problem to “ go away “ so it doesn’t freak them out further.

As for my own personal experience; my ex wife struggled with aborting our twins because she was scared and freaked out. One night in testimony at our non denom church; she even tearfully confessed her struggles with thoughts of aborting our kids.

And this is with both sides of the family, and myself; being supportive of her and desiring the babies in question. So: The question becomes; what would she have done if we weren’t supporting her decision to keep these little gifts of God or pressuring her to “ make the problem go away “? Let alone what if she was alone; a single woman without family and husband to support her spiritually and financially?

My premise is: She’d have killed them quickly from her fear without me and the family being behind her 100%.
 
Aborting a babe in the womb is always murder…
And it’s complex …
ie. not always so black and white as to who shares the guilt/sin and to what degree.

Those who pushed for and support abortion laws
Politicians and Political Party Platforms
Lobby Groups
Doctors.
Fathers… who demand and threaten .
Mothers - who via extenuating circumstances including force or mental/emotional disorders can be to lesser degrees to none - (not) responsible

_
 
I have to agree with you, @EndTimes.

I was talking with my fifteen year old niece about this earlier and she told me that a fetus isn’t even alive. 😮 Then her mother chimed once with the old standby of rape/incest babies and “ it’s a woman’s body and nobody should be telling her she has no rights. “

I think a great problem in our society is the propaganda that tells women lies and rationalizations for murder.

I say punish the abortion advocates as much as the abortionists themselves.
 
Yes @Michael16

And… underneath it all is Satan and those who follow his lead: whether knowingly or unknowingly…
 
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Michael16 said:
@farronwolf

As Saint Thomas would say: So I answer:

I would punish the abortionists and those that advocate and provide the means and services, rather than the woman; because if the means and services were not provided and advocated for; women wouldn’t be killing their babies. In your scenario, you’d be punishing drug users more than you would the drug dealers and drug producers.
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If you can find where I say punish the user more than the dealer, please point that out. I never said that.

My question has nothing to do with the dealers, ie doctors, it has to do with the person seeking the abortion. Two separate matters.
 
" My question has nothing to do with the dealers, ie doctors, it has to do with the person seeking the abortion. Two separate matters. "

OK… Authoritative CATHOLIC TEACHING…

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
 
Thanks for posting that.

But that does not address the societal penalties for the act, ie punishment for the crime which would take place if it were deemed illegal.

As far as I know the Church doesn’t weigh in officially on criminal penalties, other than the death penalty.
 
OK …We’ve this from the Church:

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81
 
farronwolf said:
However, when it comes to abortion, not many are willing to come out and blame the woman who gets the abortion, and hold her accountable for her actions in seeking and getting an abortion. She is the one who sought to kill her baby, and the only one who can consent to the act taking place. Yes, I am certain there are times when a woman is pressured into seeking an abortion, but she must sign the paperwork and consent to the procedure.
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It takes two to tango.
If a woman should be punished for an abortion, I believe the person who impregnated her also should be punished.
But many only seem to want to hold the woman accountable for this action.
 
Judging others? You might want to rethink your statement.
God bless all sinners, myself included. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
 
farronwolf said:
However, when it comes to abortion, not many are willing to come out and blame the woman who gets the abortion, and hold her accountable for her actions in seeking and getting an abortion. She is the one who sought to kill her baby, and the only one who can consent to the act taking place. Yes, I am certain there are times when a woman is pressured into seeking an abortion, but she must sign the paperwork and consent to the procedure.

Why if one agrees that it is the murder of a soul does one not seek to punish the woman for murder just as one would for any other murder, or crime that goes against our laws or morals?
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I think farronwolf has the logic 100% correct. While the woman may not perform the operation herself, she certainly signed papers, came to the clinic, made the request, etc. etc. At the very least she is an accessory to murder (if, of course, you believe all abortions are murder). And yet she is not punished under the law.

But as endtimes pointed out in his quotation from the catechism, she IS excommunicated, etc.–in other words, she is punished by the Church.

So…punished by the Church, not by the state? Why? Let’s say you took a man from Mars who doesn’t know anything about the abortion controversy–and luckily we have one who is currently president of the US. If you remember, Trump went on a TV interview with a major network, and they asked him this exact question. And he answered without hesitation that the woman should be punished under the law. Then of course he quickly backtracked.

So the question is this: why did Trump immediately backtrack? And why do pro-life supporters never, ever try to get women who get abortions thrown into jail? The answer is obvious: the general public wouldn’t have it. They (probably 99%) would oppose punishing the mother. So it’s political expediency, not logic, driving the policy.

Now is this a contradiction (abortion = murder, but woman who gets abortion is not punished)? Of course. Obviously. But it’s just one of a long string of contradictions in Conservative thought (or lack of thought).

I could give a lot of examples, but here’s a recent one: Conservatives believe in the Constitution…except when they don’t. The Constitution talks about counting “persons” in the census; Conservatives brush that aside and want to count “citizens.” The difference was debated at the time, in both the Constitutional convention and in the state conventions that ratified the Constitutions. We have written records of the debates. They knew the difference between “persons” and “citizens.” They put “persons” in the Constitution. So how can you in one breath worship the Constitution and in the next breath oppose it? I don’t know. But if you can do that, you can say abortion = murder and not punish the mother.
 
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As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

So what should the legal sanctions be? That is the question I am asking. And why do so many people who are against abortions feel there should be no legal sanctions against the women who obtain them.

That is the entire reason for the thread in the first place, and one which no one has yet to give an reasonable answer to.
 
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JoeShlabotnik said:
It takes two to tango.
If a woman should be punished for an abortion, I believe the person who impregnated her also should be punished.
But many only seem to want to hold the woman accountable for this action.
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If we are going to penalize people for creating the child, I could understand your comment.

You do realize that men have virtually no legal say so in whether or not their child is aborted. I can’t go out and hire a doctor to perform an abortion on my wife without her consent. But she certainly can go hire the doctor and have it performed without my consent.
 
This is not a problem when people first get married.
But why buy the cow when you can get the milk free?
 
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The only people who argue in favor of punishing women for having an abortion are those who are pro-abortion.

Pro-life organizations uniformly argue for penal measures against abortionists, not women.

Not only that, but because such organizations as Rachel’s Vineyard consider women to be victims of abortion, they offer counseling and retreats for women who have had abortions, to help them heal.
 
Have you read the entire thread.

We have already discussed the argument you are bringing up again.

Oh, wait, it was you who brought it up previously.
 
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Sorry to be redundant. I’m just saying that arguing to punish women has always been a pro-abortion argument, not a pro-life argument.
 
I like your fervor for the cause @farronwolf. Perhaps add some patience to the mix though. “Love is patient, love is kind…” In a public forum, things get repeated…often. Me thinks @JimG 's heart’s in the right place after all…
 
TULIPed said:
I like your fervor for the cause @farronwolf. Perhaps add some patience to the mix though. “Love is patient, love is kind…” In a public forum, things get repeated…often. Me thinks @JimG 's heart’s in the right place after all…
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JimG said:
Sorry to be redundant. I’m just saying that arguing to punish women has always been a pro-abortion argument, not a pro-life argument.
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I am not disagreeing with where his heart is or even the fact that most all pro life proponents don’t want to see a woman punished for her choices.

It just doesn’t compute in my mind.

I am not immune to repeating myself either, or getting off track. I just had one of my posts flagged for being off topic. I was simply responding to another post and guess I got too excited.
 
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