Failure to understand the thought process

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Thank you, I truly was in crisis. I didn’t truly have Jesus. And sometimes, I think, we expect the same moral values from our friends who don’t love Jesus. For how can they even truly know love? Know truth? I was so lost when I was young, men abused me in so many ways. I have very little trust in men, although I want to. I want to trust the right men in The Church to make these decisions for us, I want to trust the magisterium and that Jesus is King. Above all else, His victory was already won for His kids that had committed this atrocity. From then until time stands still. He already paid the final atonement for us all! I can’t even fathom the depth of His Love for us!
 
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Wait…is the original question IF it becomes illegal, THEN should a woman be punished for getting it?
Because I must be honest, if I had sought or knew where help could have been found…and it hadn’t been legal. I might have presently had a beautiful child alive today :(. My heart will forever be broken.
 
In other words, I wish it was illegal so that the proper resources could be more readily sought. And then there would be hope. And then a child. Whether you’re able to keep him or let a loving family adopt him, your body, even physically, has not been violated. A child is breathing and a woman doesn’t carry guilt and shame for the rest of her earthly life.
 
I hope Jesus brings you greater healing every day, my sister. And I hope you will ignore some of the more extreme opinions on this thread - they do not represent the thinking of the Catholic Church, of Christianity.
 
Thank you so much and I don’t worry at all about the extreme answers. I am traditional through and through and it is such a blessing and honour to be coming to The Church.
I am presently trying to stay out of the news as I tend to watch Cardinal Müller, with great admiration, and his present commitment to The Church. Things like pachemama and these new changes are quite scary to a seeker.
 
The true hope is Jesus Christ! He paid for our sins once and for all…and I love Him more and more every day. Thankfully God is The Judge and I will prostate myself before the Throne and let Him decide. Jesus, Our Gentle Lord, was forgiving. May I be more like Him every day. Many saints were faced with the same atrocities in their day and many had to seek solace in caves as they were the only ones holding to the Truth. This is a war…I must hold fast to the Truth I have now, and pray.
 
When I first read this, I thought it read: it DOES represent the teachings. I try to remain humble but it is a relief to re read that correctly. My first response was trying to agree. My heart feels much more peaceful. Thank you, truly. Pax
 
@MiserereMeiDei
“ . . . I’m not a sexist.”

Hmmmmm. Well . . . Maybe not.
 
Questioner2 said:
My apologies, MisererMeiDei. I did very much want you to see my post. I will be more aware of the reply function in the future.

And thank you for your reply to me.
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No problem. I didn’t even see that you had replied this time. Sorry for the delay. We can thank Minks for bringing me back. 😃
Questioner2 said:
It must be frustrating for you that so many pro-life organizations are careful to not advocate for the punishment of women,
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No. They do good work getting women to pregnancy crisis centers, working to make abortion illegal, praying for an end to abortion etc. I’m not the least bit concerned that they don’t advocate for the punishment of the women. I’m not even sure they address the punishment of the abortionists. I think they leave the issue to the legislators they are trying to win over. I, as an individual, am voicing my opinion on what I think the legislators should enact as a proper punishment for premeditated homicide.
Questioner2 said:
The pretense of concern for the problems of the pregnant is not convincing when the true motivation seems to be scorn and the desire to punish those whom you consider murderers.
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I’m not sure why one cannot be concerned for the problems of the pregnant woman (pregnant women haven’t had an abortion) and still seek justice for the babies that are murdered.

Desiring justice for the murdered doesn’t require me to scorn or hate those who committed the murder. While it can be a desire for vengeance motivated by hatred, it can just as well be a desire for justice for both the victim and the criminal whose punishment in purgatory (assuming she and the abortionist are contrite) can be expiated by accepting the punishment in this life. It would, of course, be the decision of the judge and jury as to what the specific punishment, if any, would be for any particular individuals found guilty of this crime. I advocate the death penalty be an option for this form of premeditated murder (as I feel that all premeditated murder should have the potential for capital punishment), not that it necessarily be the punishment that is always meted out since I cannot speak to the particulars of any case.
Questioner2 said:
Your position is totally understandable and I wish more would have the courage of their convictions that you display.
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I assume that people, for whatever reason, have differing opinions on the matter. Of course, I wish they didn’t, but what can you do? As to the pro-life organizations, which are no doubt comprised of many such people and others who may even feel as I do, they sensibly focus trying to convince the populace of the wrongness of abortion, getting women to keep their babies, etc. and leave the criminal justice decisions to legislators. You can’t compare what an organization does to the opinions of a single individual simply airing his opinions.
 
So lets say they do punish for this - whats changed - nothing its simply done out of sight. Punishment stops nothing when has it ever worked? Wrong approach to solving the issue.
 
BT3241 said:
So lets say they do punish for this - whats changed - nothing its simply done out of sight. Punishment stops nothing when has it ever worked? Wrong approach to solving the issue.
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So, we remove all punishment for all crimes. I guess that would work. No speeding tickets, no jail time for robbery, murder, rape. No penalty or not paying taxes. No consequences at all for anything.

Sure, lets try that for a while. I am set, have lots of guns and ammo to protect my stuff and my family. Not certain about everyone else.
 
What opinions in the thread don’t represent the teachings of the Church?

Does the Church teach that there should be no punishment for crimes in the civil sector?
 
The parallels you’re trying to set up aren’t really parallel.

The murderer who murders and the robber who Rob’s weren’t raised in a society filled with millions of people who told them over and over again that murder or robbing was fine or even good, and also praised and comforted them after the act. A thief or a murderer knows from society, and from what is written on their heart by God, that what they are doing is wrong.

Abortion is a bit different. Society doesn’t have it’s head on right with this issue. And given the unique nature of the thing, it is (unlike regular murder), extremely easy to mislead a woman into believing she isn’t doing anything wrong, isn’t destroying an actual person. They have been led down a bad path, and unlike a murderer, they don’t have knowledge of the sin they are committing, which as we know is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

Now there is a small sunset of women who will admit the thing in their womb is a human and will get an abortion anyway, but those sick people are by far the minority, and I’m sure they’ll have to answer for that in front of the throne of God, but in terms of lawful punishment, it would be nearly impossible to prove which has evil intent and which didn’t.

However, I havent met many prolife people who think the doctors who carry out the procedure should face no consequences, because unlike those women in the previous paragraph, they are specifically and rigorously licenced to understand biology, and so have no excuse. They know what they are doing.
 
nfinke said:
The parallels you’re trying to set up aren’t really parallel.

The murderer who murders and the robber who Rob’s weren’t raised in a society filled with millions of people who told them over and over again that murder or robbing was fine or even good, and also praised and comforted them after the act. A thief or a murderer knows from society, and from what is written on their heart by God, that what they are doing is wrong.

Abortion is a bit different. Society doesn’t have it’s head on right with this issue. And given the unique nature of the thing, it is (unlike regular murder), extremely easy to mislead a woman into believing she isn’t doing anything wrong, isn’t destroying an actual person. They have been led down a bad path, and unlike a murderer, they don’t have knowledge of the sin they are committing, which as we know is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

Now there is a small sunset of women who will admit the thing in their womb is a human and will get an abortion anyway, but those sick people are by far the minority, and I’m sure they’ll have to answer for that in front of the throne of God, but in terms of lawful punishment, it would be nearly impossible to prove which has evil intent and which didn’t.

However, I havent met many prolife people who think the doctors who carry out the procedure should face no consequences, because unlike those women in the previous paragraph, they are specifically and rigorously licenced to understand biology, and so have no excuse. They know what they are doing.
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Not buying your argument. There are many portions of society who are raised by folks who tell them it is ok to rob, or commit fraud against others, that murder is a cost of doing business and is ok. It doesn’t take millions of people to say something is either ok or not ok. It only takes the ones who you are in direct contact with every day to establish one’s moral standards. We certainly don’t give criminals a pass because they are raised by folks who have no morals.

I was not presenting the moral side of the issue in my OP. If we as a society decide abortion is illegal, why would folks not want the woman punished like any other criminal. That is the premise, nothing else.

Also not certain where you base your opinion on what all the women who get abortions think or believe. That seems a stretch to say, the majority, a small sunset, ect when you really have no idea. This argument assumes women are ignorant, or can’t make up their own minds about the abortion issue.

If abortion was made a criminal act, the doctors would be subject to criminal penalties. Not certain anyone argued against it. Most arguments I have heard is punish the doctor but not the woman for authorizing it. That is what makes no sense to me.

 
farronwolf said:
I was not presenting the moral side of the issue in my OP. If we as a society decide abortion is illegal, why would folks not want the woman punished like any other criminal. That is the premise, nothing else.
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But, the reason you are wondering “why would folks not want the woman punished” is that you say they are choosing to do something wrong and therefore you think they ought to be punished. That is necessarily a moral argument.
farronwolf said:
This argument assumes women are ignorant, or can’t make up their own minds
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I mean yes and no. Seeing that many women get abortions and many are against it, obviously many of them have made up their minds. Also you’re right, AFAIK we don’t have polling data for women’s general opinions going into an abortion clinic. But if youve debated with alot of pro-abortion people, which I have, probably 99% of them base their whole argument defending abortion around the concept that the baby is not a person in the womb, whether arguing it’s just part of the mothers body or some other argument leading to that end. This is primarily because it’s impossible to rationally see it as anything but murder if you concede the point that it’s a person.

So I would assume, rationally, that a woman who goes to get an abortion either a. Has convinced herself (or been convinced) that it’s not a person, b. They haven’t actually thought about the issue at all and are just going with the flow, c. They’re being coerced into it, or d. They know it’s murder and they don’t care. And based on my sample not many people on the pro-abortion side seem to subscribe to idea d.

If you define ignorance as a lack of knowledge, I guess you could say that because the baby in the womb is in fact a baby, a woman who believes it isn’t is ignorant in a way, either faultlessly or intentionally, because they lack knowledge of the truth. If you’re using ignorance to mean a general lack of education then no that’s obviously not what I meant.
 
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BT3241 said:
So lets say they do punish for this - whats changed - nothing its simply done out of sight.
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Unlikely. This makes finding someone to kill your baby much more difficult. We know that the threat of punishment does in fact hinder criminal behavior among the majority of people leaving only the least risk averse to chance that they may be caught and punished.
BT3241 said:
Punishment stops nothing when has it ever worked?
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Quite literally with every law for which we have decreed a punishment and enforced it.
BT3241 said:
Wrong approach to solving the issue.
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One prong of a multi-pronged approach at dealing with a moral crime.
 
MiserereMeiDei said:
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BT3241:
Punishment stops nothing when has it ever worked?
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Quite literally with every law for which we have decreed a punishment and enforced it.
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Which punishment is worse: A few years in jail or hell?

I think the answer is obvious. So there is already a punishment for having an abortion. But if eternal damnation isn’t sufficient to change peoples’ minds then either women don’t believe they are doing wrong or they don’t believe in the ultimate punishment.
 
Since you aren’t arguing against punishment detering crime… what’s your point?
 
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