Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

[Montgomeryatty]

I have already made the statement that the Catholic Church indeed teaches that there is an elect group. By Romans 9, we know that they were chosen before they did any good or evil…and it is not of him who wills or of him who runs - but God that shows mercy. They are chosen only in accorance with God’s gracious choice.

So, you cannot use these scriptures as an argument (i.e. that God desires all men to be saved) as a defense against election because if he can do it for some, why did He not do it for all. So this argument not only falls on us but on the CC as well. The only difference between us is that we say only the elect are justified, whereas you say that the is a non-elect group that can be justified and saved as well. But in my posting on the previous page, I show clearly that “elect” and “Christian” are used synonymously.

Linkowski,

Your view depends upon what I, and Catholics, see as a skewed prioritization of theological principles. You take a difficult-to-interpret passage from Romans 9, somewhat ignoring the context of the singular and continuous theological thought expressed in Romans 9-11, and interpret it to reach a predestinarian theology. With your stake firmly planted in Calvinism, you THEN set off to interpret other verses. The problem is that you’re reading the rest of the Bible with Calvinist glasses. Hence the utterly ridiculous doorway analogy Calvinists (although not you, . . . yet) make to interpret John 3:16.

Start with a clearer, less controversial, more essential passage, and use IT to interpret the remainder of the Bible. So, I would recommend starting with 2 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9, stating that God desires that all are to be saved, and that he wills for ALL to repent and have faith in him. THEN proceed to Romans 9 and the other verses concerning election, and interpret them in light of this bedrock principle.

What’s that you say? How are we to decide what’s the bedrock principle and which one must be interpreted in light of it? Well, you go sit down with your Bible and figure it out. It should be clear and obvious to any literate person reading the Bible, right? While you’re wrestling with that behemoth question, I’ll be on my way to Rome, with a firm, satisfied, and Biblical assurance in the only authority explicitly established by Christ which has handed on the faith since approximately A.D. 33 without teaching a single heresy. Good luck!

 

[Montgomeryatty]

I didn’t translate or interpret 1 Tim 2:4. I simply demonstrated Wisdom’s mendacity by inserting words that did not exist into the text.

If he wanted to make an editorial comment and say that “all” meant “everyone without exception”, that was within his right to do so. However, he did not do that.

He represented it as a quote of God’s HOLY Word, which was dishonest.

Scroll back and see for yourself.

Please stop belaboring the technical point concerning Wisdom. You questioned the veracity of MY post which NEVER endorsed Wisdom’s alleged insertion, and claimed utter ignorance of what he might have done.

You responded to my post because you disagree with the THEOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE espoused by Wisdom and me. So, address the principle. Explain to me how, as the Bible explicitly states at least twice, God can desire all people to be saved, and yet you can infer from other verses the very contradictory notion that God desires some subset of those people to NOT be saved?

 

[Bishopite]

Are you saying that Abraham was justified and then he wasn’t and then he was, and then he wasn’t and then he was…etc?
You don’t seem to understand the reality of justification being a process. Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:1-4 which is long before the Protestant idea of him being justified in Genesis 15:6. If Abraham had refused to believe God by faith in Genesis 12 or refused to believed by faith in Genesis 15 or 22 he would have no longer been justified. But in Abrahams case he was faithful to every event God asked him to do by faith. Not everyone acts faithfully as did Abraham. If God asks you to obey Him by faith (like by NOT commiting adultery) but you refuse then you are no longer justified.

According to the scripture, justification happened one time, at the Cross, once and for all time for all of the elect of God.

 

[sandusky]

Montgomeryatty:

That word, “pas,” is one of the more unlimited words in Greek, it effectively means “all that are, were, or ever will be.” So when Paul uses “pas” in Timothy, and when Pope St. Peter uses the word in his second Papal Encylical (2d Peter), they know they’re using a word loaded with meaning, which would eliminate any possible need to write “without exception.” On this, we can rest assured in the very “clear gospel.”

Romans 3:23

for ***all have sinned…***Without exception—even the bvm—yes?

Montgomeryatty:

Um, re-read my post. I did nothing to suggest that there IS such a translation. My point, which you did not even attempt to address, was that “without exception” would most assuredly be consistent with the spirit of the verse.

Habakkuk 2:4
4 “Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteouswill live by his faith. [Alone]

Romans 1:17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.” [Alone]

Galatians 3:11
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” [Alone]

Hebrews 10:38
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith… [Alone]Alone is “consistent with the spirit of the verses,” yes?

 

[cleargospel99]

cleargospel99;2120477:

Are you saying that Abraham was justified and then he wasn’t and then he was, and then he wasn’t and then he was…etc?
You don’t seem to understand the reality of justification being a process. Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:1-4 which is long before the Protestant idea of him being justified in Genesis 15:6. If Abraham had refused to believe God by faith in Genesis 12 or refused to believed by faith in Genesis 15 or 22 he would have no longer been justified. But in Abrahams case he was faithful to every event God asked him to do by faith. Not everyone acts faithfully as did Abraham. If God asks you to obey Him by faith (like by NOT commiting adultery) but you refuse then you are no longer justified.

The cross was and IS REDEMPTION, and it isn’t just limited to time is it, because the cross transcends time, so justification is past, present and future to whosoever will believe and obey as those who believed before the cross, the cross was applied to them, those during and after the one time event of the cross.

Bishopite,
Thank you for getting us back to the topic at hand. On the second point, I think we are on the same page.

On the first: I have another question.

Based on what you described:

How would you characterize Peter’s thrice denial and its affect on his justification?

v/r
cg99

 

[Linkowski]

Linkowski,

Your view depends upon what I, and Catholics, see as a skewed prioritization of theological principles. You take a difficult-to-interpret passage from Romans 9, somewhat ignoring the context of the singular and continuous theological thought expressed in Romans 9-11, and interpret it to reach a predestinarian theology. With your stake firmly planted in Calvinism, you THEN set off to interpret other verses. The problem is that you’re reading the rest of the Bible with Calvinist glasses. Hence the utterly ridiculous doorway analogy Calvinists (although not you, . . . yet) make to interpret John 3:16.

Start with a clearer, less controversial, more essential passage, and use IT to interpret the remainder of the Bible. So, I would recommend starting with 2 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9, stating that God desires that all are to be saved, and that he wills for ALL to repent and have faith in him. THEN proceed to Romans 9 and the other verses concerning election, and interpret them in light of this bedrock principle.

What’s that you say? How are we to decide what’s the bedrock principle and which one must be interpreted in light of it? Well, you go sit down with your Bible and figure it out. It should be clear and obvious to any literate person reading the Bible, right? While you’re wrestling with that behemoth question, I’ll be on my way to Rome, with a firm, satisfied, and Biblical assurance in the only authority explicitly established by Christ which has handed on the faith since approximately A.D. 33 without teaching a single heresy. Good luck!

Thank you for your kindness.

Okay…I am not sure that you understood what I was saying:

Statement 1…The CC says that there is an elect group PREDESTINED
Statement 2…Predestined means to determine a destination beforehand. Romans 9 says that it is only based on God’s gracious choice.
Statement 3…If that is the case, some indeed have been elected to salvation and there is a result…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Golden Chain of Salvation.

Statement 4: Did God do this for everyone? No
Statement 5: Well, wait a second…He desires all men to be saved!!!
Statement 6: Therefore, I can also make the same complaint to the CC that goes somewhat like this: Hey, God desires all men to be saved!! Why didn’t He elect all??!!

THE DIFFERENCE:
I will tell you that there are only two groups of people…elect and non-elect. The CC says that there are 1. elect, 2. non-elect and justified/saved, 3. non-elect and condemned.

I have already showed that “elect” and “Christian” are synonymous…

1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated** us **unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

And we are to making certain of our calling and election…

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

So, there are two groups…He has mercy on some and passes over others. And none of us deserve salvation. Do You??

 

[Montgomeryatty]

Romans 3:23

for ***all have sinned…***Without exception—even the bvm—yes?

Touche Sandusky! Very nice comeback! But . . . what you have here, as I noted in my comment addressed to Linkowski, is a shaky theological position being staked out as interpreting a more solid position. Between God’s desire for all men to come to a repentance and the Calvinist position, the former is sturdy and the latter is less so, and should be interpreted in that light. Stepping into the debate you’re opening up, the sturdier theological principle is that Jesus never sin, infants lack the capacity to sin, etc. The shakier assertion is that the BVM sinned, because it is necessarily an inference made based upon general human nature, not upon anything found within Scripture. So whereas the Calvinists would point to a faceless class of individuals and proclaim “they’re not elect!” here we see a case where we’re putting faces, names, and/or classifications on those whom we say are sinless. Also, as I noted to Linkowski, in the context of a Bible-only debate, this is a “what’s more fundemental” debate, and ultimately requires an infallible authority that can render judgment on what precisely is more fundamental. Like, maybe, a Church.

Habakkuk 2:4
4 “Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteouswill live by his faith. [Alone]

Romans 1:17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.” [Alone]

Galatians 3:11
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” [Alone]

Hebrews 10:38
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith… [Alone]Alone is “consistent with the spirit of the verses,” yes?

Define whether being “righteous” as stated in these verses constitutes being “saved once and for all.” Reconcile this with only Abraham and Phineas being the only individuals who were stated to be righteous. Then define “faith,” taking into account Jesus’s/Paul’s/Peter’s instructions asking followers of Christ to do specific acts in order to inherit eternal life. Once you’ve done all of that, I’ll tell you whether your use of the word “alone” in the context of your use of the word “righteous” and “faith” is consistent with the spirit of the verses.

 

[Randy_Carson]

My dear Christian,

In order to support your assertion I respectfully request that you provide us with a cite of which English language translation that actually includes the words exactly as “without exception” in 1 Tim 2:4.

v/r
cg99

Why?

According to Linkowski, if it’s implied, that’s okay.

 

[HailMary]

Why?

According to Linkowski, if it’s implied, that’s okay.

lmao. Ok I need to unsubscribe from this thread now.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

IMPORTANT!!
To ALL Catholics in this thread:
We need to stick with the THREE verses because as we have seen here this thread is turning into a verse slinging war.

The fact stands, no protestant has yet gone through the three verses stated in the Opening Post. The key here is to STICK with these verses UNTIL Protestants face them and answer for them starting at Heb 11:8. Lets clear the air of all these other passages that have been tossed out.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Well I haven’t got to Heb 11:8 yet. Lets take these three easy steps one step at a time.

Starting with step one, what exactly is your point? I don’t see how Romans 4:3 taken out of context invalidates the rest of the chapter 4 which seems to clearly teach the justification is by faith, not of works.

Please excuse my ignorance but I am really trying to understand what you mean, when you say “yet you insist it was at Rom 4 when the one and only justification took place.”

So far as I understand it Abraham, was justified by Christ’s atoning death at the cross, like all believers predestined as part of God’s plan of salvation.

First off, “Step One” is in fact Heb 11:8.

The point I am making is not that any part of Romans is being invalidated, rather the Protestant interpretation cannot stand upon examining the other facts of Abraham’s life.

Protestants believe that upon having faith in God the Christian is justified then and there, not to be repeated. They believe justification is a legal transaction where God no longer considers your sin but instead judges you according to what Jesus did on the cross. The famous analogy, some say Martin Luther came up with it, is as follows: The sinner is like a pile of dung, Jesus is like pure snow, upon justification the snow covers the dung so all God the Father “sees” is the snow and from that considers the sinner “justified”…Catholics reject this view and consider it grave error. Catholics believe justification entails God’s grace (through the merits of Christ on the cross) being infused into the sinner making his soul pure and so when God looks at the sinner He sees something that is a reality, the sinner is no longer a sinner but a new creation and an adopted child of God.

NOW, if Protestants say Rom 4 is when Abraham was justified by faith alone according to the reference to Gen 15 then we have to ask: What about Heb 11:8 where Abraham had faith as far back as Gen 12?

I hope this is clear and I have a good feeling most protestants reading this can at least understand the main idea of my challenge.

 

[Linkowski]

Okay…I am not sure that you understood what I was saying:

**Statement 1…The CC says that there is an elect group PREDESTINED
Statement 2…Predestined means to determine a destination beforehand. Romans 9 says that it is only based on God’s gracious choice.
Statement 3…If that is the case, some indeed have been elected to salvation and there is a result…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Golden Chain of Salvation.

Statement 4: Did God do this for everyone? No
Statement 5: Well, wait a second…He desires all men to be saved!!!
Statement 6: Therefore, I can also make the same complaint to the CC that goes somewhat like this: Hey, God desires all men to be saved!! Why didn’t He elect all??!!**
THE DIFFERENCE:
I will tell you that there are only two groups of people…elect and non-elect. The CC says that there are 1. elect, 2. non-elect and justified/saved, 3. non-elect and condemned.

I have already showed that “elect” and “Christian” are synonymous…

1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated** us **unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

And we are to making certain of our calling and election…

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

So, there are two groups…He has mercy on some and passes over others. And none of us deserve salvation. Do You??

 

[Sabda]

cleargospel99;2119407:

Would you be so kind as to explain in your view how salvation is “achieved”?

I would like to “second” that question. I am a new member and joined this forum so I could discuss some questions I have about my Catholic faith. I am a Catholic by birth and had pretty much been “going through all the motions” all along to please my parents, even as an adult. A few years ago I began to really look at my faith. Growing up I was taught that we were separated from God my the sin of Adam and Eve, which “closed the doors to heaven”. When Jesus came, he suffered and died to “open the doors to heaven”, so that those of us who were baptized would then have the opportunity to go to heaven, so long as we did not die with unconfessed mortal sin on our souls. The problem is, my motivation for doing all the “good Catholic” things had always been fear of going to hell rather than love for God. In fact, God had always felt more like a “gatekeeper” or even a “scorekeeper” to me than a loving Father. And yet as I read the bible I kept finding passages reminding us to love God with all our hearts. I noticed that like me, the Pharisees and the church at Ephesus (in Revelation) were DOING the right things, but Jesus was not happy with them because their MOTIVATION was wrong. I prayed and asked God to help me “find the love”. I began listening to a Christian radio station and heard about salvation being a GIFT–that is, something that is UNMERITED. Jesus was willing to stand in the gap for me–why?? Not because of anything I’d done. It was out of shear love

for me. All I had to do was acknowledge the gift and it was mine. Suddenly, I WANTED to pray, and go to church, and conform my life to his, because I was so thankful for this gift!
And yet you will tell me that this is incorrect. What am I missing?
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut,
Sydney

Sydney,
Since no one has responded to you on this thread I’d thought I would. Then we can get back to those 3 verses that Catholic Dude wants us to deal with.

The Church also teaches that we do not earn our salvation. Grace is a free gift that we do not earn. We are saved by GRACE ALONE! HOWEVER, when you receive a gift you have one of two choices, you can accept the gift, or reject it. God’s gifts always require a response from us, like all gifts do.
Jesus told us that if we LOVE Him we will OBEY the commandments. Love is an action. When you love someone you DO something for them. You don’t just sit ad-el by. We are told to LOVE the Lord with all our heart, all our minds, and all our strength (think of how you make the sign of the cross ) and our neighbor as ourselves. For what we do to them we do to Jesus. After all as St Paul teaches love is the greatest NOT faith or hope but love! If you have faith enough to move mountains but have not love, you have NOTHING! For God IS love!

At the final judgement what we will really be judged by is how well we have LOVED one another.

Here a site that might help explain the Church’s position.

soladeiverbum.com/gracealone.shtml

As far as salvation goes. It is a process it is not a one time deal and that’s it. This is a good basic summary of how we as Catholics see salvation.

I’m saved (Eph 2:5–8), being saved (1Cor 1:8), and hope I’ll be saved (1Cor 3:12–15). I’m working out my salvation in fear (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in Christ (Rom 5:2).

Hope this helps.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programing.

 

[Linkowski]

I like my reposting above but I want to get with you about your Abraham scenario. It seems you are all stuck on this Abrahamic illustration…BUT…you need to look at all of the other teachings on justification in the New Testament - I have given a very good posting on the whole matter…this is comprehensive enough to show…

But anyway…does the very first “act” of “faith” lead to justification if there is no object or promise associated with it??? Was Cornelius saved prior to receiving Christ - the Holy Spirit?? It says that he worshipped God and such…

Acts 10:1-4 KJV 1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

The object of his faith had not yet come to be until Acts 43…

Acts 10:42-43 KJV 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Then…

Acts 10:44 KJV 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Then…

Acts 10:47 KJV 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

What about Lydia??

Acts 16:12-15 KJV 12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. 13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

She was not saved at the moment she began to seek God by His grace…

Abraham had no object of his faith or promise at all until Genesis 15:6…

Genesis 15:5-7 KJV 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Now he has a promise…He has THE GOOD NEWS.

A person who goes to a church and hears the gospel is not born again until, through their hearing with a repentant heart, receive the gospel by faith and are indwelt with the Holy Spirit…Their going to church did not get them justified, whether it was 3, 4, 5, 6 times that they had went. It is not until the OBJECT of Christ and the PROMISE of eternal life are received.

May God Show Us…

 

[Linkowski]

By the way…Gen 12 is very much in line with repentance…

Repentance is turning from sin as slavemaster to Christ as Lord…Disciple…Follow Me!!

It is not until one makes God…“God”…when the gospel can penetrate their heart…

Luke 8:15 KJV 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Luke 8:18 KJV 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

 

[Cardinalsong]

If your a Catholic who gets bogged down when Protestants bring up Romans 4 to “prove” that Abraham was saved by faith alone, dont be worried…simply remember these three verses:

Hebrews 11:8 (quoting Genesis 12)
Romans 4:3 (quoting Genesis 15)
James 2:21-24 (quoting Gen 22)

These verses show that Abraham had saving faith long before the event in Romans 4, from this we see Protestantism cannot be right in claiming Abraham was justified once and for all by a single act of faith in Romans 4 (Gen 15:6). On top of that we see Abraham being justified later in his life as James 2:22 teaches. The reason this can happen is because you can increase in justification/righteousness as you continue to obey God, which proves the Catholic understanding of salvation. This is summarized in Galatians 5:6 as “faith working through love,” not a one time act of faith.

Hmmm…still no discussion on Hebrews 11:8?

8 By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Just wondering:twocents:

 

[JoeyWarren]

Luke 8:18 KJV 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have

There will be those that think they seemeth to have salvation, for they believed that "belief in Jesus was all that was required. Their life did not produce much good fruit, and Jesus will say to them,

“What you did not do to the least of mine, you did not do to me”

Your failth failed to feed the hungry conntinuously, your faith failed to quench the thirsty continuously, your faith failed to clothe the naked continuously, your faith failed to visit the sick continuously,
your faith failedt to visit the imprisoned continuously"

“Why should I let you into Heaven?”

…

 

[Wisdom]

Wisdom,

My dear verbose friend, I read laboriously through your posts, but something struck me about how you quoted 1 Tim 2:4. I looked it up in my NIV and didn’t see “without exception” in my copy. So to be fair I looked up the Douhay-Rheims and found this:

1 Tim 2:4 (Catholic Douhay-Rheims 1899)

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Do you see the phrase "without exception" in the text?

Bearing a false witness completely undermines your contribution to the discussion.

Oh gee spare me the drama “all men to be saved” (without exception) are you pleased now. There was no malicious intent here and since when “all men to be saved” meant anything other than “without exception” I am sorry if anyone wasn’t bright enough to figure this out but it doesn’t change the facts of the discussion and your attempt to make a mountain out of molehill to derail the discussion now that is another form of false witness. Look the plain fact is all means without exception no matter if I gave punctuation or not. No bad intent was made on my part if there was I would have changed the content to one of contradiction instead of a synonym. Somethng you guys do to James to get out of the obvious context.

As Montgomeratty pointed out "but please rest assured, the phrase “without exception” is certainly not violative of the spirit of that verse. 1 Tim. 2:4, as well as 2 Peter 3:9, contain a striking word of which you need to take greater notice. That Greek word, transliterated, is “pas,” and it means “all,” as in:

“God our Savior, who wants ALL men to be saved.” 1 Tim. 2:4

and

“The Lord … is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but ALL (some translations rendered as “everyone”) to come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9.

That word, “pas,” is one of the more unlimited words in Greek, it effectively means “all that are, were, or ever will be.” So when Paul uses “pas” in Timothy, and when Pope St. Peter uses the word in his second Papal Encylical (2d Peter), they know they’re using a word loaded with meaning, which would eliminate any possible need to write “without exception.” On this, we can rest assured in the very “clear gospel.”"

SInce you can’t win the argument outright instead you resort to the game of gotcha when you got nothing. The verse’s meaning is not changed in anyway and I was not behaving in the calumnious ways you falsly bare witness that is my intent. You can’t read my heart can you yet you accuse of malicious intent. I was typing fast and forgot the punctuation. SInce it doesn’t change the nature of the verse you have clearly made a gospel out of molehill. Its not like evangelicals don’t do this sort of thing how many times Have I heard “to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord” THe Bible does not say this but protestant quote this constantly. Please don’t bear false witness and claim to know the heart of another when you don’t you have clearly overreated here in order to derail the thread which you clearly don’t have an answer for or else you would have stayed focusedd on the argument instead of inflamatory personal attacks which isn’t very Christian by the way.

 

[Linkowski]

If you are justifed by works…

Galatians 5:3 KJV 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

You are a debtor to do the whole law…

We are justified by faith that works - not faith and works.

 

[Linkowski]

I am not sure why you are still on this topic when I have already explained a huge problem in association with your argument…

Okay…I am not sure that you understood what I was saying:

**Statement 1…The CC says that there is an elect group PREDESTINED
Statement 2…Predestined means to determine a destination beforehand. Romans 9 says that it is only based on God’s gracious choice.
Statement 3…If that is the case, some indeed have been elected to salvation and there is a result…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Golden Chain of Salvation.

Statement 4: Did God do this for everyone? No
Statement 5: Well, wait a second…He desires all men to be saved!!!
Statement 6: Therefore, I can also make the same complaint to the CC that goes somewhat like this: Hey, God desires all men to be saved!! Why didn’t He elect all??!!**

THE DIFFERENCE:
I will tell you that there are only two groups of people…elect and non-elect. The CC says that there are 1. elect, 2. non-elect and justified/saved, 3. non-elect and condemned.

I have already showed that “elect” and “Christian” are synonymous…

1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated** us **unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

And we are to making certain of our calling and election…

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

So, there are two groups…He has mercy on some and passes over others. And none of us deserve salvation. Do You??