Faith alone! Is it right or wrong?

[petra22]

Like playing good golf, it is not enough to place the ball properly, thus giving it a state of chance for a good flight. You also have to hit the ball in good faith so that your action proceeds the ball to its desired location in the hole.

Love this describing faith and works…

 

[Cathoholic]

JetteZ . . .

(We were taught that) actions would naturally be the byproduct of a true faith.

(Parenthesis mine for context)

I was taught that by the Baptists too as a kid.

But what about the person who has faith, but eventually decides to refuse to do works?

What if he has FAITH to move mountains (admittedly a figurative term but figurative for LOTS of FAITH), but has NOT CHARITY?

St. Paul in 1st Corinthians says that guy gains (not Heaven, but) . . . . NOTHING!

This guy with great faith gains NOTHING!

Why?

Fortunately St. Paul tells us “why”.

Because he doesn’t have CHARITY. He lacks LOVE (charity).

Here is a guy with big time FAITH, yet he is NOT saved.
He gains NOT Heaven with this faith,
but rather this guy WITH FAITH . . . gains "NOTHING!"

.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3 if I have ALL FAITH, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I GAIN NOTHING.

If ever St. Paul had a chance to teach justification by faith ALONE, HERE would have been it.

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3 if I have ALL FAITH, so as to remove mountains, this would be an impossible situation to NOT have love/charity because love automatically flows from that faith to move mountains that this guy has. So he gains Heaven because he has this faith.

 

[JetteZ]

But what about the person who has faith, but eventually decides to refuse to do works?

A refusal to do good would be similar to the reason Satan isn’t in Heaven; it’s a willing choice to turn away from God. Subscribing to “through faith alone you are saved” doesn’t mean you can’t still go to Hell.

 

[Cathoholic]

JetteZ.

Subscribing to “through faith alone you are saved” doesn’t mean you can’t still go to Hell.

Would you say you CAN have A real “faith”, faith to “move mountains”, and yet still NOT go to Heaven?

 

[Dan_Defender]

The verse I like to point out to Protestants is ‘You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder.’ James 2:19
Demons have faith as they know Christ is real and they fear him, yet they do not do the good works that are the fruits of the faith.

 

[JetteZ]

Belief is not the same thing as faith.

 

[JetteZ]

I’m not sure I understand what you are asking; you and the previous poster seem to use faith and belief interchangeably when they don’t have the same meaning. I’ve muddy the waters myself doing it.

So, could you fully believe in God and go to Hell? Yes.
Could you have full faith in God and go to Hell? I can’t imagine that happening.

 

[kate1]

This isn’t a verse, but:
“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves”
This is the opening line to “Fides et Ratio” by JPII and I can’t think of any better way to put it. You need both faith and reason.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Wouldn’t you need works in order for it to be a true faith.

 

[Pathway2]

so the meaning is that for they love there neighbor, they have shown there love for God?

 

[jcrichton]

Faith alone, in part, is about letting the judging of souls up to God and getting people to stop judging each other and focus on their own relationship with God.

Yet, even Scriptures demonstrate that God does not want “Faith” alone. It is the whole Jesus (St. Matthew 5 through 7). It is easy to call out ‘lord, lord’ or ‘Jesus has saved ME.’ It is not as easy to accept that we must come to God not with open hands but with offerings:

23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; 24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. (St. Matthew 5)
15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? (St. James 2)

Faith alone is not only not what God wants from us but it is fully rejected:

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. (St. Matthew 7)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

St. Matthew 7:21-23; straight from the Lord’s Mouth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…actually, the other way around; because they Love God they are able to Love their neighbor, neigh, even their enemies:

19 Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us. 20 If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not? 21 And this commandment we have from God, that he, who loveth God, love also his brother. (1 St. John 4)
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? (St. Matthew 5)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Cathoholic]

SammyRose . . .

Wouldn’t you need works in order for it to be a true faith.

Happy Easter SammyRose!

No. You don’t need works in order for it to be a true faith.

(Remember. The guy in 1st Corinthians 13, has “FAITH” to “MOVE MOUNTAINS” (idiomatic for a LOT of authentic FAITH). But he lacked “charity” or “love” (depending upon your translation).

That guy gained . . . .“NOTHING”.

.

Without works, a “faith” can still be authentic, but without works it is a “dead” faith.

The Council of Trent gets very specific about this exact point and I’ll try to post it later today.

 

[Cathoholic]

Hi SammyRose.

Wouldn’t you need works in order for it to be a true faith.

You would need works for it to be a “lively” faith or a faith that is “alive” or not “dead”.
But a sinner can still possess a REAL faith and sin against only their charity.

(Or for that matter they COULD sin only against their “hope”–i.e. they could “despair” despite being a “believer”. I think there is evidence for Judas fitting in this category from the Roman Catechism).

I dug up the salient Trent quotes for this thread (bold mine for emphasis) . . . .

.

COUNCIL OF TRENT
.
CHAPTER XV.
.
That, by every mortal sin, grace is lost, but not faith.
.
In opposition also to the subtle wits of certain men, who, by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost; thus defending the doctrine of the divine law, which excludes from the kingdom of God not only the unbelieving, but the faithful also (who are) fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners, and all others who commit deadly sins; from which, with the help of divine grace, they can refrain, and on account of which they are separated from the grace of Christ.

And this . . .

.

CANON XXVIII.- If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is ALWAYS lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christian; let him be anathema.

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm

Hope this helps.

Happy Easter.

Cathoholic

.

PS St. James on a NOT “lively” or a NON-“Living” or a “dead” faith . . . . . .

.

JAMES 2:26 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

I meant that a living faith needs works or that in order for our faith to be useful it is necessary for works to accomany it.

 

[Cathoholic]

I meant that a living faith needs works.

Yes. I get it now.

Sorry that I drew a different conclusion from your question (but I enjoyed re-looking it up and refreshing myself on this teaching anyway).

 

[steido01]

Being Lutheran, I won’t try to interpret Roman Catholic doctrine, but I do have a brotherly responsibility to explain Lutheran theology when it is misrepresented.

“Faith alone” now means, for many Protestants and almost all Christian Evangs, simply thinking to yourself that Jesus is your savior earns you a free pass to Heaven. Talk about lowering the standards! Fr Martin Luder (his actual name) is going to take a bunch of surprised faux Christians to warmer climes when they die.

That’d be a surprise to Dr. Luther, since that’s not at all what he taught. He speaks directly against that hijacked version of the phrase “Faith Alone” in his Large Catechism, in the section on Baptism, where he defends the necessity of works:

Those would-be wise, “new spirits” (Anabaptists, others) assert that faith alone saves, that works and outward things do nothing. We answer, “It is true, indeed, that nothing in us is of any use but faith, as we shall hear still further.” But these blind guides are unwilling to see this: faith must have something that it believes, that is, of which she takes hold (2 Timothy 1:13; Titus 1:9) and upon which it stands and rests (1 Corinthians 2:5)… Now these “new spirits” are so crazy that they separate faith and the object to which faith clings and is bound… if the “new spirits” say, as they are accustomed, “Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works have no use for salvation. What, then, becomes of faith?” Answer: “Yes, our works, indeed, do nothing for salvation. Baptism, however, is not our work, but God’s.”

So too, in Luther’s view, are the good works Christians do. When done in sincere love for neighbor, it is not so much we who have done them, but the Spirit who has laid them out for us. So for us to say “One must do good works to be saved,” gets the process backward. From the Lutheran perspective, anyway. This is how he can honestly say “Faith Alone,” and mean it, while understanding that a saving faith is never alone.

Lest anyone accuse Luther of mental gymnastics, consider another native German translator, Pope Benedict XVI, on the matter.

And should anyone think that I’m being too generous to Luther, his view is even more plain in his introduction to Romans:

Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever… Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

 

[steido01]

Demons have faith as they know Christ is real and they fear him, yet they do not do the good works that are the fruits of the faith.

After reading more about what Luther and Lutherans actually believe, would it surprise you to know that Lutherans also use that verse in much the same way? We have much more in common than many on either side like to think.

Finally, consider this article from Catholic Answers:

In popular discussions, this verse is often presented to Protestants as if it proves that we are justified by faith and works, with nothing more to be said. Confronted with this claim, the Protestant may respond, “But that’s not the kind of justification that James is talking about.” Before dismissing this claim, a Catholic should be aware of one thing: The magisterium agrees with it.

TLDR: Luther did not consider “Faith” to be some mere intellectual assent, as he is being misrepresented to teach here. Faith, to him, was so much more.

 

[bsy]

Hello steido01,
Peace be with you…
I do not know much about the teachings of Martin Luther, but had fellowship with Protestants in the past, who may or may not have misrepresented Luther.

Concerning “faith alone” and “once saved always saved”…
Q: You mean to say if you rape and rape, again and again, you will still be saved on the strength of “faith alone” and “OSAS?”
A: And the answer is an emphatic “YES.”

Q: But what about loving your neighbors - helping others in need?
A: When one is “ready” to do so…

Q: What if you joined a Christian fellowship and praised God to the highest heavens. To everyone, you seemed to be a man who has great faith. One day, you came across a beggar in the street and he told you, “I haven’t eaten for three days…” and because you were not ready, you decided to look away. BUT this was meant to be a TEST, it was your last day. When you crossed the street, you got hit and died…What do you think is God’s judgment?
A: No reply…

Remember the FIG tree that Jesus cursed…it was not the season to produce fruit, but was cursed for lack of fruits…