Faith alone or not?

[twb1621]

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continued from previous post:

**You have taken the position to know the mind of God in that you claim to now what particular teachings He intends you to follow and what you can ignore? There are only two places we may end up and that includes you and every human being you know. As proclaimed by Jesus (in *****Matthew CH25) **One is Hell and the other Heaven, one group sheep and the other goats, one that lives a life in charity and humility in the love of God and one that does not. Now, if you fall into the group that righteously lives the life of charity and humility in love of Christ as the examples He offers depicts, you may be assured, but if not, according to His word, there is onlyeternal punishment… *and you think this doesn’t apply to you?

*Matthew CH25; 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” …*And you think this doesn’t apply to you?

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

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*Matthew CH7; 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you Depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. ……………*And you think this doesn’t apply to you?

*Luke CH6; 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. 48 That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. 49 But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.” ………*And you think this doesn’t apply to you?

*John CH12; *47 And if anyone hears my words (means all words) and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words (again, all words) has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me." …………And you do not think this applies to you?

*No, I don’t believe He suffered the cross “SO THAT” men can “keep on sinning.” I believe He went to the cross to cancel out the debt (Col. 2:13-14), so that through faith in Him men would receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38) - ALL of them - and in Him "have eternal life

" (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; Rom. 6:23; 1 Jn. 5:9-13).
**it is clear your way of accepting the Word of God is to relate to yourself only partial passages or half sentences of verses without even acknowledging what the verses are referring to or to whom they are being spoken? This is exactly what you are doing. **

---

These latest verses you refer to you offer to defend your beliefs against other verses you can not explain and you choose to avoid. You do it consistently and haven’t caught on to your own double standards. So your position must be that any passage of God’s Word that proves you are mistaken in your understanding of scripture can be discarded, otherwise scripture would be in opposition to itself as related to your beliefs. The verses you are NOW referring to are directly related to the verses I presented you and you avoided. One again, if you are devoted to Christ and His teachings, explain how your beliefsfind credibility within all these verses, or explain how they do not pertain to you.

Please consider how important you feel your devotion is the teachings of Christ and if that devotion is deep enough to learn what the full teachings of Christ really are rather tha follow only those parts you think you understand.

continued next post…

 

[Philthy]

He’s just being stubborn and trying to hit below the belt and can’t even land one that way.

I dont think this is a fair characterization of MD. I think he is passionate about his point of view and about sharing it. Declaring someone “stubborn”, however, is entirely subjective and apologetically irrelevant; claiming He is “trying to hit below the belt” is inappropriately judgmental. How could we possibly know such a thing? He and I have our disagreements, for sure. He may not even consider me a brother in Christ, but I have always found him well within the bounds of charitable dialogue. Lets stick to the facts and avoid as much ad hominem as possible. If my first post contributed at all to an attitude of intolerance or derision, it was unintentional.

Let us never forget that He who unites us is greater than that which divides us.

I will now step away from the podium.

 

[bona_fides_1]

I dont think this is a fair characterization of MD. I think he is passionate about his point of view and about sharing it. Declaring someone “stubborn”, however, is entirely subjective and apologetically irrelevant; claiming He is “trying to hit below the belt” is inappropriately judgmental. How could we possibly know such a thing? He and I have our disagreements, for sure. He may not even consider me a brother in Christ, but I have always found him well within the bounds of charitable dialogue. Lets stick to the facts and avoid as much ad hominem as possible. If my first post contributed at all to an attitude of intolerance or derision, it was unintentional.

Let us never forget that He who unites us is greater than that which divides us.

I will now step away from the podium.

Calling someone stubborn who is stubborn in fact serves no useful purpose since the words fall on deaf ears in either the objective or the subjective case. Enough said… moving on.

Still waiting for MD to start answering the mail on how he can say he believes in Jesus but does not believe Christ’s commandment to obey all that He has said and how belief can be divorced from the necessity for also loving Christ?

BF

 

[Pitcharan]

Matt. 24:14 says, “…this gospel of the kingdom.” I already covered this in my previous post to you. We’re not in “the kingdom.” That kingdom was postponed and Christ is now building His church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, individually, through faith in Him alone.

Christ will usher in that Millennial Kingdom, on earth, at His second advent, literally fulfilling the ancient Hebrew prophets who prophesied of it. This church age was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets spoke of a glorious, earthly kingdom over which the Messiah would rule in peace and righteousness - not heaven. That’s why Christ still anticipates the time when He will sit on His glorious throne (Rev. 3:21), and the words spoken to Mary at the Annunciation will be fulfilled (Lk. 1:32-33).

All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us. You must rightly divide the Word of truth.

Hi MD, how r u? Nice to come in touch with you again on our journey for truth.

Coming to the point, ie your above post (also your earlier post #170), claiming the Kingdom of God to be an earthly one, the Bible verses you cite in support of your claim are NOT at all corroborating your view. On the other hand, there are several verses that clearly disprove your view:

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (Lk 23:42-43)

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." (Jn 18:36)

But He continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." (Jn 8:23-24)

 

[guanophore]

To “fall from grace” is to think you can be justified by works.

Can you please explain how you came up with this? I cannot see anything like this in the context from which this passage is taken.

 

[guanophore]

I “accept” all the teachings of Christ. But not ALL His teachings directly apply to me.

This is a concept that emerged during the Reformation as an outgrowth of Dispensationalism, a tradition of men invented 1500 years after Jesus taught the Apostles which of His teachings applied to the Church, and how they are to be applied.

The Reformers rejected the Apostolic Tradition in favor of their own ideas. Each generation, those ideas evolve more and more, so that we now have “bible christians” deciding for themselves which of the Teachings of Christ apply to them, and which do not.

 

[placido]

If you had completed the homework assignment I gave you quite a few weeks ago, you wouldn’t be as confused as you are now.

Oh no, I thought I was alone in seeing that Moondweller is confused.

placido

 

[guanophore]

Matt. 24:14 says, “…this gospel of the kingdom.” I already covered this in my previous post to you. We’re not in “the kingdom.” That kingdom was postponed and Christ is now building His church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, individually, through faith in Him alone.

Christ will usher in that Millennial Kingdom, on earth, at His second advent, literally fulfilling the ancient Hebrew prophets who prophesied of it. This church age was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets spoke of a glorious, earthly kingdom over which the Messiah would rule in peace and righteousness - not heaven. That’s why Christ still anticipates the time when He will sit on His glorious throne (Rev. 3:21), and the words spoken to Mary at the Annunciation will be fulfilled (Lk. 1:32-33).

I don’t suppose you would like to explain why the Apostles continued to preach the good news about the Kingdom, after the “postponement”?

 

[guanophore]

All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us.

And the distinction was revealed by Christ, to the Church.

One needs to rightly divide the Word of truth.

Oh, you have divided it all right!

By what standard do you determine that you are “right” in the way you have done it?

Is it whatever seems to make the most sense to Moon?

Catholic theology is rampant with contradiction. Forgiven but yet not forgiven; justified but yet not justified; redeemed but yet not redeemed; saved but yet not saved; saved by grace yet by works.

I believe this is very true for those who are unable to accept ambiguities and dialecticals.

It is difficult for the concretely minded to understand the concepts of “already/not yet”, “both/and” as opposed to “either/or”. For those who think in black and white, the Catholic faith can seem contradictory.

 

[guanophore]

***He bore them ALL in His body on the cross and died TO them, once for all*** - according to the teachings of Paul (and Peter). Not even sin can separate the believer from "*the love of God which is in Christ Jesus*."

This is a common misunderstanding that I learned about here on CAF. Many of our fundamentalist brethren confuse God’s Love with God’s salvation. They are clearly not the same.

God so loved the world, that He gave His only son…this does not mean that the whole world will be saved, though God loves every person He creates.

He loved the rich young ruler also, but watched him walk away. God’s love for us is so great, He has made us in HIs own likeness and image, and because of this, we have the freedom to walk away from Him. He will love us as He watches us choose eternal separation from Him.

The nature of sin has not changed, and sin separates people from God. While we were yet sinners, Christ loved us enough to die for us, but some people choose to remain in their sins, rather than coming to Him, that they might find life. He loves them still.

(salvation) “which is in Christ Jesus,” not you. Salvation is about CHRIST - not you.

No, Moon. Christ does not need salvation, people do. Salvation is about His creation, the people, and the works of HIs hands. It is ALL about us. He seals us with the HS, so that we are made supernaturally able to work out our salvation.

 Rom. 8:38-39 is written to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers - those who have believed in Christ. NOTHING can separate them from God's love. **NOTHING!** And I'm one of those believers who cannot be separated from the love of God.

But sin will separate you from eternal life, though He will love you all the way as you walk into the fire.

 

[placido]

Moondweller,
This is another example of you making up scripture. Where does it say :
"Not even sin can separate the believer from “the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

I am sorry to say that Moondweller can not and will not answer that simple question.

placido

 

[guanophore]

Yes, it’s a matter of hermeneutics, not convenience. Contrary to the allegorical method of interpretation (hermeneutics, adopted by Catholicism) where the readers themselves make the Scriptures conform to anything they wish them to say, thereby conforming them to their own preconceived ideas, religious doctrines and personal beliefs.

I think that Freud might call this a case of classical projection.

 It's a matter of allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

moondweller;7024269:

Scriptures itself lets the reader know if what it is saying is allegorical, prophetic or even hyperbole. It is not the authority of the reader to decide, but the context itself.That’s an assertion.That’s prejudiceThat’s judgmental, prejudice and assertive.

Perhaps you can instruct us on where the “Scriptures itself” have revealed to you which parts of themselves don’t apply to you?

I hope you can also include why Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world, and also explain why the Apostles continued to preach about the Kingdom of God, when it was “postponed”?

 

[Philthy]

Calling someone stubborn who is stubborn in fact serves no useful purpose since the words fall on deaf ears in either the objective or the subjective case. Enough said… moving on.

Still waiting for MD to start answering the mail on how he can say he believes in Jesus but does not believe Christ’s commandment to obey all that He has said and how belief can be divorced from the necessity for also loving Christ?
BF

Pax and I have been through this dance several times with MD. Here is an old thread from 2008 with all the same issues - and then some - with the dialogue following much the same pattern as it appears to by heading in this thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4071239#post4071239

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4071239&postcount=344

 

[moondweller]

Still waiting for MD to start answering the mail on how he can say he believes in Jesus but does not believe Christ’s commandment to obey all that He has said and how belief can be divorced from the necessity for also loving Christ?

Where does Jesus say “obey ALL that I have SAID and you will have eternal life?” And where did I say that I believe that belief in Christ is divorced from loving Christ?

However, can an unbeliever (unsaved) truly love Christ? How can loving Christ be a “necessity” for salvation? Loving Him is a fruit of salvation (especially regeneration), not a cause of it. You’ve sort of got the cart before the horse there, buddy.

 

[moondweller]

Keep reading unto John 5:29 “and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.”

What’s being expressed there are TWO different resurrections with TWO different destinations. The resurrection unto LIFE vs. the resurrection unto JUDGMENT. They take place at two different times. And this must be understood in context with what Jesus just said previously in 5:24. Here it is again:"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."Based on Christ’s words those who believe have no part in the resurrection unto “judgment” (“does not come into judgment”) but are of those who are resurrected unto LIFE; having “passed out of death into LIFE” (that’s eternal/everlasting life).

 

[moondweller]

One’s hand or one’s foot or one’s arms or one’s eyes can not “cause” one to sin, but one’s mind conceives of sin and one’s heart desires sin.

Define “stumble.” Jesus said “If your right eye MAKES YOU STUMBLE, tear it out and throw it from you…” He said the same about the right hand, “makes you stumble.” According to Him the eyes and hands can make someone stumble, so they were to rid themselves of those “stumble” causing body parts.

So, do you do ALL that Jesus said to do?

 

[moondweller]

*Matthew CH25; 31ff. and you think this doesn’t apply to you?*It does not apply to me. These are Gentiles living on the earth (mortals) at the time of Christ’s return to this earth in order to set up His Millennial Kingdom (on earth). I’m part of the church which was taken up to be with the Lord several years prior to this earthly event.

 

[moondweller]

Matthew CH7; 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven… And you think this doesn’t apply to you?

It does not apply to me. They tried to be accepted by their works and Jesus said, “I never knew you.” He’s not just my “Lord” but my Savior. He redeemed (purchased) me with His blood.

Luke CH6; 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. 48 That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. 49 But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”** And you think this doesn’t apply to you?**

This one does apply to me. He said to believe in Him for eternal life - I did. I now possess eternal life.

And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words (again, all words) has something to judge himthe word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me." …………And you do not think this applies to you?

This does not apply to me. I accepted both Him and His words regarding believing in Him for eternal life.

Please consider how important you feel your devotion is the teachings of Christ and if that devotion is deep enough to learn what the full teachings of Christ really are rather tha follow only those parts you think you understand.

TWB, do you believe these words of Jesus?John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

 

[twb1621]

Define “stumble.” Jesus said “If your right eye MAKES YOU STUMBLE, tear it out and throw it from you…” He said the same about the right hand, “makes you stumble.” According to Him the eyes and hands can make someone stumble, so they were to rid themselves of those “stumble” causing body parts.

So, do you do ALL that Jesus said to do?

To respond to your question, use your common sense as God gave you my brother. what part of the body controls all other parts including the hands eyes, feet, arms and so on? What part of the body renders consideration and choice of good and evil and decides which to accept and which to reject? Again, your literal interpretation proves your inability to interpret the teachings Christ presents to us. James and John wished to call vengeance down on a town for their refusal to hear and accept them. Did they cut out their tongues? If not, were they banished as Christ’s disciples? Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest when they came to take Jesus into custody, but was he told to cut off his arm or hand in repentance?

You forsake common sense just to hold on to the distorted interpretations you prefer to believe. That is not devotion to Christ. you’re still avoiding responding to the question in regard to the verses MD. Stop trying to deviate the subject you have been presented with by asking more questions.

Since I have sought to learn and have learned the truth, I strive to live my life according to all His teachings, yes… And without discarding any of the Inspired Word of God as valueless. There is no part of Scripture that does not pertain to you, even if you refuse to accept it or can not understand it. It is your responsibility to learn the Truth, no one else’s.

Answer the questions I presented you in my last few posts. If you can not you acknowledge your interpretations are incorrect and you should have the devotion to Christ to learn the truth, which anyone would feel blessed to help you with.

If you are fearful of confronting this truth, provide scriptural support that you or anyone may discard any parts of scripture or Christ’s teachings. IF there is none, you violate your own principles of devotion to Scripture.

Or provide scriptural support for the reformation which is what led to the man made opinion that scripture alone is the only truth and what is not in scripture is invalid.

Or provide scriptural support for the establishment of any one of the 30000 independent churches that were established by man or woman under the protestant movement also under the premise that scripture alone is the only truth and what is not in scripture is invalid.

These questions are not to make you look foolish, they are to raise questions and awareness in your mind that something in your current beliefs is very, very wrong.