Faith alone or not?

[bona_fides_1]

You know, one of the great unanswered questions that perhpas our firend Moondweller could answer is why he spends so much time on CAF.

After all, in his theology, all you need is belief to be saved once and forever and that’s by grace. So nothing he will do will help in either his salvation or in someone elses. So what is the point of all this evangelizing. And the Catholics he speaks to here are all believers, so they are already saved, right?

I don’t think he does and that is the subtle thing he keeps avoiding when I bring it up. You see to MD is seems that works are evil and an example of somone trying to buy their way into heaven and not a true believer. Catholics being spiritually holistic go too far and believe too much. To MD there is apparently a problem with believing too much and exceeding the bare minimal requirements.

If it wasn’t so pathetic I’d be funny.

BF

 

[paul_c]

I don’t think he does and that is the subtle thing he keeps avoiding when I bring it up. You see to MD is seems that works are evil and an example of somone trying to buy their way into heaven and not a true believer. Catholics being spiritually holistic go to far and believe too much. To MD there is apparently a problem with believing too much and exceeding the bare minimal requirements.

If it wasn’t so pathetic I’d be funny.

BF

Well, perhaps Moondweller will be good enough to explain why he comes here.

From what we know, it’s definitely not for his own soul
Is it because he thinks we need saving? If so, that will lead to an interesting discussion.

 

[Philthy]

It might be interesting, but I doubt it would be productive. Suffice it to say that he is here to preach and defend the gospel as he knows it, and that he does not truly judge us as individuals but merely judges components of our theology.
As odd as it seems, it’s better not to focus on the individual we are debating with, but on the issue at hand. As the Catholics on this forum it’s tempting to focus on the individual because, as in this thread, there is only one opposing viewpoint - his. If there were 8 or 10, as is the case for him, I think a focus on the issue rather than the individuals would be the natural result…
Lets stick to the issues at hand and be cognizant of the fact that most of the impact we have will be on those who merely view the thread without comment (ie lurkers) and not on the individual so confident and committed to his viewpoint that he is willing to share it (MD).
My two cents only…

Blessings!

 

[bona_fides_1]

It might be interesting, but I doubt it would be productive. Suffice it to say that he is here to preach and defend the gospel as he knows it, and that he does not truly judge us as individuals but merely judges components of our theology.
As odd as it seems, it’s better not to focus on the individual we are debating with, but on the issue at hand. As the Catholics on this forum it’s tempting to focus on the individual because, as in this thread, there is only one opposing viewpoint - his. If there were 8 or 10, as is the case for him, I think a focus on the issue rather than the individuals would be the natural result…
Lets stick to the issues at hand and be cognizant of the fact that most of the impact we have will be on those who merely view the thread without comment (ie lurkers) and not on the individual so confident and committed to his viewpoint that he is willing to share it (MD).
My two cents only…

Blessings!

This all makes good sense but in this case we have to ask him to give us the Rosetta stone to decode his logic and his personal theology since it is to say it mildly “unique” and highly personal. Most of us have a hard enough time keeping the top 4-5 Protestant theories and denominational beliefs in mind - he is in his own religion here. What is the “BAC” denomination? He has admitted to picking and choosing what scripture is relevant to him personally but his methodology looks more like a person arriving at a smorgasbord picking the morsels that most appeal to him. So we have to get him to explain the logical inconsistencies and his personal tastes and preferences. What is sad and disconcerting here is that he is tying down 3-5 Catholic apologist in a tar-baby one-off theology that few other Protestants would accept as valid - its not efficient of our time and I am not so sure many lurkers here are going to benefit from the substantial counter-arguments that we are giving him. Each time we use “scripture alone” and logic he just drops it on the floor them moves on to a new variation of the same old assertions. MD has set himself up as a pope over his own personal religion and appears to be “WORKING” hard to sway others to his personal point of view. That requires asking personal questions like “why this and not that” and explaining. But I can’t figure out why he’s working so hard to sell us his new religion when according to his personal theology no work can help anyone - including himself.

BF

 

[Philthy]

Well, where else can he go to hear the words of eternal life?

Seriously, though - where else is he gonna go? To a non-reformed Protestant website? To a Jewish or Pagan website? Remember, there are only two people in the world to him: believers and unbelievers. Those other sites simply don’t offer the draw of CAF, and he gets the spotlight as one of the lone opposers. On any of those other sites he’d be a puny voice in a cacophony of theological debate.

I think the lurkers are perfectly aware of which arguments merely appear sound on the surface and which arguments withstand the test of Scriptural, logical and historical cross examination…

 

[bona_fides_1]

MD, I want to give you some quotes from the Early Church Fathers that contradict your personal theology. Ignatius was a bishop born around 50 AD. We believe him to be a disciple of the apostle John. He advises Catholics not to have anything to do with heretics but to pray for their repentance since it will be very hard for them to convert to the truth. He clearly warns that those who do not believe in the Eucharist and prayer (men like you) are in grave danger of incurring death through the factions and confusion they sow.
St. Bishop Ignatius of Antioch (martyred at Rome between 98 and 117 AD):

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics
They [Heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast (agape fest); but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

MD, you need to start reading scripture from a context of apostolic history and understand what real early Christians believed and did. Everyone in the early church except pockets of heretics believed in the sacredness of the Eucharist and in the authority of the Catholic bishops. We have their writings - these are first generational disciples after the apostles. How can you dare hold your own teachings over the ECF teachings from a calendar distance of 2,000 years??? You have absolutely no historical context or legacy to draw on. The apostles and the ECF were all Catholics and friends of ours - our family. They taught us a handed down teaching. Who taught you and why did you listen to them over the true disciples of Christ - the apostolic successors of the apostles - the Catholic Church?

BF

 

[twb1621]

I agree, he does not see that his works are no different than ours. He does not see that we, too, have died, and our lives are hidden with Christ in God. Therefore, the life we live is no longer our own, but that He is at work in us.

You are right, of course. But, you have to realize that it is very difficult to change when you see yourself as already perfect.

Last year I truly began to wonder if he was suffering from some sort of megalomania or something. We were involved in a purgatory discussion, and he posted that he is fully identified with the risen Christ.

Since his perception of himself is identical with his “position” in the risen Christ, it is really not necessary for him to learn or change anything. He has already arrived.

Thank you Guan… your insight is always helpful.

 

[twb1621]

This is totally nonsensical. If He didn’t mean the eye then why did He say pluck it out?I don’t understand your position:
Rom 10:8-10 "But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
The one who believes with his heart confesses with his mouth. It’s all faith alone, Phil.This is not the gospel. The Apostles who were entrusted with the gospel of God’s grace through faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ preached the following in respect to sins:
Peter:

Acts 10:43 "“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Paul:

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Col 1:14 “in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

John:

1 John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.”
The Apostles did not attach an “if you” condition to their doctrine of forgiveness of sins. Theirs was a proclamation of forgiveness through faith in Christ who bore them ALL on the cross and died TO them, once for all.Actually, otherwise it wouldn’t be Apostolic. The Apostles emphatically taught that the believer’s sins, through faith in Christ, “have been forgiven.” They didn’t teach the church what we call “The Lord’s Prayer.” That prayer is not addressed to Christ’s church, which He is presently building (during this church age) through the Holy Spirit, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles through faith in Him.No, the question should be “why faith alone?” It’s a far better question with a far more insightful, Christ glorifying, answer.It cannot be reconciled with the gospel (good news) Christ entrusted to His Apostles. Their “gospel” message had to do with what Christ accomplished, once for all, on the cross. The condition expressed in that prayer regarding forgiveness of sins does not apply to the believer “under grace” and who, being now in Christ, “has redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” Jesus didn’t preach the gospel of grace. It was not preached until AFTER His substitutionary, sacrificial death on the cross, when all our sins were imputed to Him - and He died TO them, once for all. Men are now asked to believe it. And upon belief they’re “gifted” salvation (Eph. 2:8-9); justification (Rom. 3:24); and eternal life (Rom. 6:23) - by His GRACE through faith alone - according to the Scriptures…

 

[twb1621]

This is totally nonsensical. If He didn’t mean the eye then why did He say pluck it out?I don’t understand your position:…

Keeping in mind your insistance that scripture in the case you are referring to must be meant literally as in plucking out the eye… Lets look at scripture more literally for a bit longer.
MD, after considering your position that you believe yourself a “Bible Christian” yet disregard the numerous verses so far you believe do not apply to you, it raises a bigger question; how do you justify the faith you adopted as scriptural to begin with when a great deal more of scripture defines not just a Church, but THE Church and the Faith so unrelated to yours… And if you say it is all faith alone that we are saved by, then by which faith… among thousands upon thousands to choose from all distinct in their own way… who established it, when … based on what teachings and in what era as it can only be one Church founded 2000 years ago when Christ in human form founded it with only His apostles as His first disciples. That Church He, in time, appointed His apostles to establish and of which would remain through all time until His return…

I can’t imagine you truly believe without any questions, why scripture is so repetitious in its teachings yet for you the majority of scripture is to be discarded. With these nagging questions in my mind, I have to raise the following points and ask your reply;

Consider the fact that there is and has always been only one Church, one faith, of one mind and one judgment founded by Christ:

1. Recall Matthew CH16 below and note also that in Matthew CH28, Jesus instructed His apostles to teach them (the Church body) to observe “ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED”, not just selected parts, no exceptions and no conditions removing anyone from any of the directions we are to follow.
2. And we also know that scripture tells us we are not to follow anyone teaching doctrine other than those of the Church He founded. This clearly attests to the fact that anyone who is teaching doctrine different than what His Church teaches, is teaching a false doctrine.
3. That we are directed IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THAT WE ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, BE OF NO SCHISMS AND BE PERFECT IN THE SAME MIND AND JUDGMENT.
4. That there is only “one body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
5. That at the expression of Satan’s interests, Jesus assured Simon Peter that He (Jesus) prayed to His Father in Heaven that he (Peter) would not fail, and that Peter, being once converted would confirm his (Peter’s) brethren.
6. That Jesus went as far as to provide warnings for us that not only would there be corruption outside His Church but corruption would at times arise in men from within His Church but never did He suggest abandoning the Church He established and that He committed to providing the guidance of the Holy Spirit to always and above all guide the teachings of His true Church, His faithful, in His Bride.
7. That we wer asked to persevere and not abandon her or form a new one or several thousand.
8. That the establishment of the initial hierarchy of that Church is explained in passages such as 1 Corinthians CH12 below.
9. That Jesus’ position IS the head of that one body in 1 Colossians CH1.
10. That Jesus and only Jesus was and is and always will be the only one to reconcile all things in heaven and on earth to Himself through Himself. Not through any man or women or movement such as the “reformation”. No one else would be empowered to re-establish His Church or found another Church with “revised or altered” doctrines determined acceptable according to his or her own beliefs supported by their personal opinions of what they could believe and what they could not accept.
11. That He suffered His passion, death and resurrection so that we may be presented as holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. That faith Paul speaks of he identifies as that Church, that faith that he is a minister of and the only Church that has an unbroken lineage for 2000 years.

Continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

This is totally nonsensical. If He didn’t mean the eye then why did He say pluck it out?I don’t understand your position:…

Matthew CH16; 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew CH28; 16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

John CH16; 12 "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. 13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

These are some of the proclamations Jesus made in His covenant between Him and the Church He founded with His Blood:

The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

To suggest that Jesus, in any way did not keep the covenant with His Church is to accuse Jesus of breaking or going back on His own covenant.

---

Establishing His Church;
1 Timothy CH3; 15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

John CH17; 18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them (His chosen preachers) into the world. 19 And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me** through their Word (no one else) , **21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

Matthew CH24; 4 “And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. 6 And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.”

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

This is totally nonsensical. If He didn’t mean the eye then why did He say pluck it out?I don’t understand your position:…

Acts Ch20; 28 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

1 Corinthians CH12; “25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. ”

l Colossians CH1; 18 He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven. 21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, 25 of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, 26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, 27 to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.

Think to yourself, can you credibly question the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church, to so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as and when He determines appropriate to Him?
Does man know better than God and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that?

No where in Scripture does it say the Church Jesus founded would end, become corrupt and fail or be reestablished at any time or by any man before His return. Just the opposite is the truth. God proclaims through scripture everything but these things will occur. Yet many have been mislead into accepting the personal beliefs and disbeliefs of individual men and women who did not have the faith or knowledge to accept the complete teachings of our Lord, establishing their own distorted faith through individual interpretations.

If in fact the Catholic Church was not the true Church as some other “Christian” faiths were led to believe, one would have to know which Faith was the True Faith. After all, there must be one (and only one) because the Bible testifies to it and to the fact it must be visible, obvious, and is of only "one God, one Faith, one body and one Baptism. And it would have the lineage to prove itself for 2000 years.

and do you speak the same thing and are you perfect in the same mind as that Church Jesus founded and are you of the same judgment? If you were, you would be Catholic as the lineage of the teachings of Christ through the Catholic Faith has remained consistent throughout time.

So can you justify the beliefs you hold through that lineage along with your righteousness in disregarding what Jesus himself said must be observed by all?

 

[guanophore]

You know, one of the great unanswered questions that perhpas our firend Moondweller could answer is why he spends so much time on CAF.

After all, in his theology, all you need is belief to be saved once and forever and that’s by grace. So nothing he will do will help in either his salvation or in someone elses. So what is the point of all this evangelizing. And the Catholics he speaks to here are all believers, so they are already saved, right?

No, I don’t think from his perspective we are saved. That is why he keeps repeating the same “salvation verses” over and over again, and asking members “do you believe”? I think he said that he believed there were certain people in the Catholic Church that are saved, but most of us don’t “get it” from his perspective. That makes us fields ripe for harvest.

 

[guanophore]

I don't think he does and that is the subtle thing he keeps avoiding when I bring it up. You see to MD is seems that works are evil and an example of somone trying to buy their way into heaven and not a true believer.

I was surprised a little ways back when he defined “fall from grace” as believing one could be saved by works. I asked for some clarification because I could not see this concept anywhere in the text, but he did not answer. So far, anything that does not agree with his understanding of “the gospel” is not salvific, including the Gospels themselves.

Catholics being spiritually holistic go too far and believe too much. To MD there is apparently a problem with believing too much and exceeding the bare minimal requirements. :rolleyes:

If it wasn’t so pathetic I’d be funny.

BF

I think this malady is getting more and more common. I wonder what the preacher talks about on Sundays? Do you think it is the same salvation message he parrots here? Is there any point to learning to live the Christian life? I have to admit, I am mystified how one learns about sanctification when the Teachings of Jesus “do not apply”.

 

[paul_c]

I was surprised a little ways back when he defined “fall from grace” as believing one could be saved by works. I asked for some clarification because I could not see this concept anywhere in the text, but he did not answer. So far, anything that does not agree with his understanding of “the gospel” is not salvific, including the Gospels themselves.

I think this malady is getting more and more common. I wonder what the preacher talks about on Sundays? Do you think it is the same salvation message he parrots here? Is there any point to learning to live the Christian life? I have to admit, I am mystified how one learns about sanctification when the Teachings of Jesus “do not apply”.

I wouln’t be shocked if Moondweller WAS the preacher.

 

[hansard]

I haven’t had time to read through the entire thread, so this might have been brought up already:

The 1999 Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification stated (among much else):

*In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life. *

My attitude has always been this:
Imagine good works without faith. What good would that do you in a religious sense? Oh, it’s all good in a social justice sense, a feeling of having done the right thing, but it need not be connected in any way with God.
Imagine, then, faith without at least an attempt to do some good in the world. It would be a hollow, theological faith, characterised by sitting in a dark room, grasping a cross and meditating on the five wounds or the immaculate conception (or some other distant, solitary activity).
Not that there’s anything wrong with those pursuits, mind you, but they don’t actually do anything to make the world a better place…you know, extending a helping hand to the leper or giving away your shirt to the poor, as Jesus did or said at various times.

Anyway, doesn’t the Catholic Church believe that the Holy Spirit is the guiding force in the performance of good works AND the maintenance of faith? I’m sure I read that somewhere.

 

[paul_c]

I haven’t had time to read through the entire thread, so this might have been brought up already:

The 1999 Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification stated (among much else):

*In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life. *

My attitude has always been this:
Imagine good works without faith. What good would that do you in a religious sense? Oh, it’s all good in a social justice sense, a feeling of having done the right thing, but it need not be connected in any way with God.
Imagine, then, faith without at least an attempt to do some good in the world. It would be a hollow, theological faith, characterised by sitting in a dark room, grasping a cross and meditating on the five wounds or the immaculate conception (or some other distant, solitary activity).
Not that there’s anything wrong with those pursuits, mind you, but they don’t actually do anything to make the world a better place…you know, extending a helping hand to the leper or giving away your shirt to the poor, as Jesus did or said at various times.

Anyway, doesn’t the Catholic Church believe that the Holy Spirit is the guiding force in the performance of good works AND the maintenance of faith? I’m sure I read that somewhere.

When you really get down to it, the real point of contention has always been about free will versus God’s plan. You see, in the Catholic viewpoint, God leads everyone to himself but does not force us to do his will. We need to cooperate with God’s plan of our own free will, doing the works he puts before us to gain eternal life. In Catholic theology, God’s plan is not compromised by man’s free will choices because God knows what we will choose before we do. This does not mean that God is forcing our hand, merely that he knows us better than we know ourselves so he can predict with perfect certainty what we will choose and his plans have accounted for this.

Of course, not everyone understands salvation in this way. If you make the mistake of undervaluing God’s power and knowledge, you might be led to think that Man’s free will would somehow render God’s plans moot. Since this is obviously not possible, man being so much lower than God, then to uphold God, you deny Man’s free will. The natural extension of that is then to deny that anything man does has merit. And the extension of this is to deny that the moral teachings have any value. And the extension of that is to say that God chooses who will go to heaven before they are born. And the extension of that point is to say that those who are chosen to believe will never be lost, hence " once saved, always saved". of course, the problem is that there are numerous scriptural passages that conflict with all these premises and extensions, so then there has to be other accommodations to reconcile this problem. One tactic being discussed here is to simply deny that these conflicting passages are relevant to the believer.

In the end, all of these heresies could be avoided, if people would simply follow Catholic tradition, supported by scripture, that God is all powerful, all knowing and also, the essence of Love. He has the power to bring his plan to frutiion, while still allowing Man to come to him freely out of love. And yes, no man can be saved without God, who made him and gives him the necessary grace to be saved, but when a man is saved, it is also partially due to his personal merit.

 

[twb1621]

MD has the same kind of blinders on with the same method of presentation as the JW. Taught only specific verses with distorted interpretations and to discard others as non-applicable or avoid the presenter if “too hot” to handle, but there has been a massive number of passages he refuses to confront at all. He has no ability to relate passages or explain those he disregards that oppose what he insists upon. If it is the practice of these beliefs he holds to do as he chooses with the Inspired word of God in parts only, then I am eager to know how he can justify his beliefs in totality, which is why I am seeking clarification as to his justification in his overall faith. There is absolutely no justification scripturally as scripture invalidates any other body of faith other than that one Universal Church of Christ founded by His hand.

He has yet to respond to even the following verse or simple questions presented to him earlier in the thread which proves he can not defend his belief as scripture calls upon us.

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

As we know, the very root of Md’s beliefs derived from the “protestant reformation” which is not only unsupported in scripture but defies the warnings of scripture and the covenant of Christ to His Church; beliefs he has adopted that are embedded in a “church/faith” established through a mere man who distorted and edited interpretations which have always been in opposition to the faith of that one Church Jesus founded WITH HIS BLOOD; beliefs of which have absolutely no credibility or support by the very Inspired Word of God taken out of its element and from the faith of its origin, the Universal Catholic Church. His is in opposition to the true teachings of Christ as they are presented and confirmed by the apostles, that are consistently re-confirmed by the apostolic Fathers who were taught personally by the apostles and who directly presented their teachings to their immediate successors forward and all whom have continuously provided their confirmation in their own writings and among themselves, all through the continuous succession in Church History.

 

[catholictiger]

i know im late to the thread but Benidict XVI explained this doctrine Perfectly for us in his general audience.

enjoy

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

 

[bona_fides_1]

I think this malady is getting more and more common. I wonder what the preacher talks about on Sundays? Do you think it is the same salvation message he parrots here? Is there any point to learning to live the Christian life? I have to admit, I am mystified how one learns about sanctification when the Teachings of Jesus “do not apply”.

Actually, I am starting to believe that the OSAS “just believe” crowd are all just an outflow of a brilliant Jesuit “fight fire with fire” plot. That must be it. How brilliant to turn Protestantism against itself by no longer warning them that they are bringing destruction down on themselves for self interpreting scripture. Why bother burning millions at the stake anymore? Those Jesuit’s knew that nature would solve this problem. It was inevitable that a new spoiler sect would spring forth from the loins of Protestantism that would then seek to devour its mother. OSAS taken together with sola sciptura is exactly the frictional sticks needed to spark & utterly burn out the wild tare of Protestantism forever.

Just as soon as this wild OSAS mutant seed works its way into all the old school Protestant denominations like Episcopals, Anglican, Lutherans etc. they are suddenly going to make the connection that Church going and preaching are utterly obsolete. It will be:

*“Why go to church and listen to a preacher tell us the same old stuff when we are all saved already? Why pay tithes? Why buy all the rapture CDs and books? Why pray? Why marry? Why even resist sins of the flesh since its all Jesus’ responsibility to get us to heaven and I can’t fall from grace no more?” *

The harder Protestantism works to avoid the appearances of works - the quicker it falls victim to its own success. It just cant’ scale.

So, I really do think that Protestantism is in its last death throws. It has reached the pinnacle of irrational-ism and must soon start laughing at itself just to keep its sanity. There’ s no one at the tiller. Gads! Their ship has no tiller! It’s every man pulling with an oar - strongest pull in the direction they want to go. How novel - harnessing a phalanx of rowers and using the borg collective to steer by majority rule! We must pray that some won’t go the next step and cave all the way into despair and go over the falls. Pray that some instead will come to their senses, unshackle themselves from the slavery of irrationality and jump ship to swim back to the Catholic Church - the Rock of Faith and refuge that God has given humanity.

I am starting to see how America as a nation was being self deceived by Protestant illusions from the very beginning of its formation. Protestants have imagined that they are the new “rock” and the new church - going so far as to color our secular public school history books with PR spin to steal/hijack their own original Catholic identity and imagery. Protestants seem to like the Catholic idea of: "A chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God". But their closest idea of a priesthood is to equip everyone with a bible and make everyone their own pope. Rite and liturgy have been replaced with the motions of secular-patriotism (no church - just meet at the ballgame stadium, team caps off, hand over heart to sing and pledge patriotism “one pluralistic potpourri under God” - give us Spartacus and may the best team win!). They tried to reform The Church along patriotic/nationalistic lines but they bumped up against competing ideals about freedom from the neo-pagans/hedonists and the secularists - “give us license without moral restraint”. Then the spoilers and opportunists came. Men like Joseph Smith saw the absurdity of a pluralistic religion and tried to re aggregate. His was a vision for power and a new national religion of “one new Israel” (Catholicism revisited but with Smith as a secular pope with all new privately revealed dogmas - Mohammad had a few good pattern that Smith could borrow from).

So here we all huddle under a tattered “big tent”, flea-market sort of Christianity. Each person can shop around for whatever suits self. Rather than a nation built on the single rock of faith we plant our feet in a gravel pit of chips taken off the old block (of Peter) in a smorgasbord of denominations. But irrespective of an illusion of democracy with no real free choices anarchy/mob-rule without a guiding moral principal just never scales well. Eventually it must turn on itself or create a privileged class (“the gullible surfs” and “the secular ruling elite”?) or suffer being over run by foreigners. It’s up to us Catholics to wake people up and start building the church back up from the largest fallen chips salvaged from the rubble and re-mortared into the church walls.

It comes down to this for America - everyone getting a small piece of Plymouth Rock through the self-wrecking ball of Protestantism or standing clear and getting the whole mountain of faith from The Church Christ establised on the Rock of Peter.

MD has loaded his slingshot with a convenient pebble taken from the dry brook of personal ideas and now seeks to slay giants. Personally I think he’s spinning out of control and is about to brain himself…

BF

 

[Tomster]

Where does Jesus say “obey ALL that I have SAID and you will have eternal life?” And where did I say that I believe that belief in Christ is divorced from loving Christ?

However, can an unbeliever (unsaved) truly love Christ? How can loving Christ be a “necessity” for salvation? Loving Him is a fruit of salvation (especially regeneration), not a cause of it. You’ve sort of got the cart before the horse there, buddy.

Moon,

Your twisting of the Scriptures to support your false system is truly amazing. It appears that “after you were washed you are are like a returning sow to wallow in the mud and like a dog you keep going back to your own vomit.”

Allow me to explain.

There have been occassions when you have used 1 Peter 1:4-5 to try and justify your position of eternal security through faith alone. What a pity you didn’t keep reading all of his Epistles. If you had you would have found out what Pope St. Peter had infallibly written in the infallible book. You would have found out what the true Church taught and has taught for over 2,000 years.

Your job will be not only to interpret the following verses but to reconcile them.

“We are to share an inheritance that is incorruptible, inviolable, unfading. It is stored up for you in heaven; and meanwhile, through your faith, the power of God affords you conduct till you reach it, this salvation which is waiting to be disclosed at the end of time.” 1 Peter 1: 4-5

AND

“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have know the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to his vomit,’ and, ‘a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud’.”

Are you really eternally secure Moon? Can salvation be lost Moon? Pope St. Peter infallibly teaches in the infallible Bible “no” to the first question and “yes” to the second.

Obviously, by your own words, you teach a different gospel Moon.