Faith alone or not?

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Yes we are commanded to love one another and strive towards holiness, but it will never be perfected this side of heaven because we still have a sin nature and satan is the god of this world. It won’t be till the Resurrection when we shall receive our glorious bodies, that we will have perfection.
We are all called to perfect ourselves THIS side of heaven to become Christlike so others can follow our lead. While it is true in current secular neo-pagan times that few are achieving it - it IS achievable viz grace. Don’t doubt the power of God’s grace. Those who are not perfected in their sanctification and are judged worthy of heaven go to purgatory before entering heaven to be purified in spirit since not even a minor appetite for sin can enter into heaven.
Yes, works of love are important, but they do not buy us a ticket to heaven. Jesus alone made that possible and offers it to us. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like little children. We are to come to Him with the faith of a child. What do children know about holiness? They have a simple faith and are very trusting. This is what God wants. A humble heart that admits he isn’t perfect, stumbles and falls all the time and needs God’s grace.
An assumption of “salvation” common to the Protestant theology is not a humble heart but a haughty and proud heart that presumes upon God’s mercy and too often invites careless regard to one’s own personal conduct. True apostolic Christians (Catholics) never presume they are “saved” before God gets to judge in the matter. We hope with strong conviction that we are found worthy of our name and strive to perfect ourselves and DO what Christ commanded – including obeying those He appointed to shepherd His Church and receiving His sacraments. It is not a matter of having a ticket - it is a matter of being IN THE ARC (the Church - the Body of Christ) that delivers us to the Promised Land. Those who did not enter Noah’s Arc were destroyed in the deluge. Only those who enter into (or blindly cling like a barnacle by ignorance) the Barque of Peter are saved.
Maybe the difference between you and I is that you do “good works” to lessen your time in a place called purgatory, or to earn merit points with God. But Christians do good deeds because at their spiritual rebirth, God gives them a new heart.
I hope to avoid purgatory or spend as little time there as possible What you fail to grasp is that there are different crowns in heaven. The more grace you accumulate here and the more you perfect yourself in holiness the deeper you can draw into beatitiude with God. The angels envy the grace that God gives humanity through The Church since we can spiritually grow even higher than the angelic beings in holiness if we partake of all that is offered us. True Christians have the whole faith not just parts of it. We do good works because we want to give back to God what He has shared with us. It’s a true merit that adds to the salvation given through justification in Christ.
  • John 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father*
So how about putting aside your pride and admitting to God you are unable to DO ALL THAT HE COMMANDED. God already knows you can’t do it. He sent you the Son. So humble yourself before Him and ask Jesus to take over your life and be your Lord and Savior. It will be the best decision you will ever make.
I have absolutely no doubt that God’s grace is sufficient to do ALL He commanded. I will admit to God that I have not learned to cooperate fully with His grace yet. Can you put aside your sin of doubt in disbelieving that God’s grace is sufficient to perfect us? Why do you doubt? Who taught you this thing?

BF
 
No, I am not saying God is disingenuous. You are jumping to conclusions. How about having a real and civil conversation and ask me what I meant? What standard am I using ? God’s Law, the 10 Commandments.

I think its a dishonest person who believes he ceases to sin. We sin daily. Maybe you don’t acknowledge it as sin. But thanks be to God that He is faithful to forgive when we confess them.

I never said eat, drink, and be merry, now did I? You never even asked me what my beliefs are. You just ran ahead and made baseless accusations.

Let me ask you something. Are you holy? Holy in the way God is holy? Do you love others the way God commands? I doubt it. Look at your attitude towards me. And I don’t love you the way I should either.

When God gave us His Commandments, it was to show us how far we have fallen. To show us our sinful nature and how we all stand guilty before God, the righteous Judge. What is the wages of sin? Death! This is why humanity groans. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said I do the very things I should not do, and the things I should be doing, I don’t do. O wretched man am I! God, being a holy God cannot condone sin of any kind. He cannot look the other way. He absolutely must judge it. This is why He sent the Son to die for the sins of the world. Because you and I cannot atone for sins. In the OT era it was animal sacrifices. But it wasn’t a perfect sacrifice. It was replaced by the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now it is by grace that we are saved…not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes we are commanded to love one another and strive towards holiness, but it will never be perfected this side of heaven because we still have a sin nature and satan is the god of this world. It won’t be till the Resurrection when we shall receive our glorious bodies, that we will have perfection.

Yes, works of love are important, but they do not buy us a ticket to heaven. Jesus alone made that possible and offers it to us. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like little children. We are to come to Him with the faith of a child. What do children know about holiness? They have a simple faith and are very trusting. This is what God wants. A humble heart that admits he isn’t perfect, stumbles and falls all the time and needs God’s grace.

Maybe the difference between you and I is that you do “good works” to lessen your time in a place called purgatory, or to earn merit points with God. But Christians do good deeds because at their spiritual rebirth, God gives them a new heart.

So how about putting aside your pride and admitting to God you are unable to DO ALL THAT HE COMMANDED. God already knows you can’t do it. He sent you the Son. So humble yourself before Him and ask Jesus to take over your life and be your Lord and Savior. It will be the best decision you will ever make.
There my be some misperceptions on both sides. Catholics recognize that there is sin in the world. We even recognize our own sins and confess them to our priests. But that doesn’t mean we are content with them. A devout Catholic will strive every day to improve his understanding of God’s will for him and to carry that out. And some people are VERY holy. Maybe you haven’t met them, but trust me, they are people out there that are extremely selfless. Perfect like God? Of course not. But still VERY HOLY.

As for your assertion that Catholics do good works for merit and not out of love- you are simply wrong to think that. We have advantages that you do not to help us on that way to love. First of all, we have access to God’s grace through the sacraments. This builds up God’s love within us and makes it easier to love because we become one with Christ. Secondly, we have the fullness of truth to help us form our consciences and understand God’s will for us. Thirdly, you miss out on the richness of Catholic Devotions,starting with the Mass and extending to Eucharistic Adoration, the stations on the cross, the Rosary, etc. These devotions have been developed over 2000 years to help us get closer to God.

If you really want to know Christ as he intended, become part of the Church he commissioned. There’s absolutely no reason to stay on the outside, looking in through the stained glass. Why rely on yourself when the Church is sitting there with outstretched arms, ready and willing to help you in your quest to know and love Jesus?
 
No, I am not saying God is disingenuous. You are jumping to conclusions. How about having a real and civil conversation and ask me what I meant? What standard am I using ? God’s Law, the 10 Commandments.

I think its a dishonest person who believes he ceases to sin. We sin daily. Maybe you don’t acknowledge it as sin. But thanks be to God that He is faithful to forgive when we confess them.

I never said eat, drink, and be merry, now did I? You never even asked me what my beliefs are. You just ran ahead and made baseless accusations.

Let me ask you something. Are you holy? Holy in the way God is holy? Do you love others the way God commands? I doubt it. Look at your attitude towards me. And I don’t love you the way I should either.

When God gave us His Commandments, it was to show us how far we have fallen. To show us our sinful nature and how we all stand guilty before God, the righteous Judge. What is the wages of sin? Death! This is why humanity groans. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said I do the very things I should not do, and the things I should be doing, I don’t do. O wretched man am I! God, being a holy God cannot condone sin of any kind. He cannot look the other way. He absolutely must judge it. This is why He sent the Son to die for the sins of the world. Because you and I cannot atone for sins. In the OT era it was animal sacrifices. But it wasn’t a perfect sacrifice. It was replaced by the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now it is by grace that we are saved…not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes we are commanded to love one another and strive towards holiness, but it will never be perfected this side of heaven because we still have a sin nature and satan is the god of this world. It won’t be till the Resurrection when we shall receive our glorious bodies, that we will have perfection.

Yes, works of love are important, but they do not buy us a ticket to heaven. Jesus alone made that possible and offers it to us. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like little children. We are to come to Him with the faith of a child. What do children know about holiness? They have a simple faith and are very trusting. This is what God wants. A humble heart that admits he isn’t perfect, stumbles and falls all the time and needs God’s grace.

Maybe the difference between you and I is that you do “good works” to lessen your time in a place called purgatory, or to earn merit points with God. But Christians do good deeds because at their spiritual rebirth, God gives them a new heart.

So how about putting aside your pride and admitting to God you are unable to DO ALL THAT HE COMMANDED. God already knows you can’t do it. He sent you the Son. So humble yourself before Him and ask Jesus to take over your life and be your Lord and Savior. It will be the best decision you will ever make.
yankee_drifter,

If you are interested in having a real and civil conversation, then, you might want to consider this.

When we examine the laws of God governing and directing human beings we must ask ourselves how are they promulgated and brought to our notice. We think at once of the Mosaic law, of the law of the Gospel instituted and promulgated by Christ, of the laws of the Church made by Councils and Popes under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and of the just laws of the State.

But, as a matter of fact, there is a law of God governing human beings which is antecedent to any of those which I have mentioned and of far greter obligation, which was binding on the Gentiles, who had never heard of the law of Moses (Romans 2:14), and to which all men are subject even though they recognize neither the law of the Gospel, nor the authority of the Church, nor the ruling of the State. It is called the natural law, the participation and reflection in a rational creature of the eternal law of God, and therefore an expression in man of the very essence of God. God was free not to create human nature at all, but having created it he could not but assign to it the moral or natural law. Every created thing has certain well defined tendencies proper to its nature, and man is no exception to this rule. Unlike the instincts and tendencies of irrational things, the law which governs human nature is law in the strict sense of the word, for the individual is able to obey or disobey, and is not driven along by blind inherent force. The endowment of free will, necessarily accompanying a rational nature, is man’s peril as well as his chief glory, for in freely disregarding the laws of his own nature he is responsible for the resulting ruin and disorder.
 
No, I am not saying God is disingenuous. You are jumping to conclusions. How about having a real and civil conversation and ask me what I meant? What standard am I using ? God’s Law, the 10 Commandments.

I think its a dishonest person who believes he ceases to sin. We sin daily. Maybe you don’t acknowledge it as sin. But thanks be to God that He is faithful to forgive when we confess them.

I never said eat, drink, and be merry, now did I? You never even asked me what my beliefs are. You just ran ahead and made baseless accusations.

Let me ask you something. Are you holy? Holy in the way God is holy? Do you love others the way God commands? I doubt it. Look at your attitude towards me. And I don’t love you the way I should either.

When God gave us His Commandments, it was to show us how far we have fallen. To show us our sinful nature and how we all stand guilty before God, the righteous Judge. What is the wages of sin? Death! This is why humanity groans. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said I do the very things I should not do, and the things I should be doing, I don’t do. O wretched man am I! God, being a holy God cannot condone sin of any kind. He cannot look the other way. He absolutely must judge it. This is why He sent the Son to die for the sins of the world. Because you and I cannot atone for sins. In the OT era it was animal sacrifices. But it wasn’t a perfect sacrifice. It was replaced by the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now it is by grace that we are saved…not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes we are commanded to love one another and strive towards holiness, but it will never be perfected this side of heaven because we still have a sin nature and satan is the god of this world. It won’t be till the Resurrection when we shall receive our glorious bodies, that we will have perfection.

Yes, works of love are important, but they do not buy us a ticket to heaven. Jesus alone made that possible and offers it to us. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like little children. We are to come to Him with the faith of a child. What do children know about holiness? They have a simple faith and are very trusting. This is what God wants. A humble heart that admits he isn’t perfect, stumbles and falls all the time and needs God’s grace.

Maybe the difference between you and I is that you do “good works” to lessen your time in a place called purgatory, or to earn merit points with God. But Christians do good deeds because at their spiritual rebirth, God gives them a new heart.

So how about putting aside your pride and admitting to God you are unable to DO ALL THAT HE COMMANDED. God already knows you can’t do it. He sent you the Son. So humble yourself before Him and ask Jesus to take over your life and be your Lord and Savior. It will be the best decision you will ever make.
yankee_drifter,

In a word, the substance of the Decalogue, with the exception of the Third Commandment, is nothing more than a written expression of the natural law. If I tell a man to live according to his nature, to develope his faculties harmoniously in accordance with their natural objects, and to live in manner befitting the dignity of a human being, I am merely telling him to obey the natural law which is a reflection in his nature of the eternal law of God. In telling a man to do good and avoid evil, I am telling him not to break the commandments of God. The two sets of ideas are mutually inclusive.

All this is the natural law. But man is raised to a supernatural state, and in everything which concerns the attainment of his supernatural end, human reason alone is powerless to discover the laws which God has devised for his guidance. He needs to be taught by God. Christ our Lord, who taught the way of God in truth (Matthew 22:16), has brought to our knowledge the necessity of Baptism and of faith and all the other precepts of the Gospel, and the Church continues to teach in his name.

But there is this further observation to make: even with regard to the natural obligations of the moral law it is necessary for the majority of men to be taught by God; for human reason left to itself will discover the truth, at least in the less obvious precepts of the natural law, only with such labor and difficulty that very few men would come to the knowledge of it. Therefore, the Catholic is taught by the Church his natural duties, and in matters of great moment and difficulty the teaching authority of the Church defines the moral obligations of the faithful; for example, in the use of marriage. That teaching imposed on the whole Church is infallibly true, for it bears the stamp of divine authority.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
I wasn’t talking about works of love. My question was: can you obey all of the Commandments?
I know what you asked, let me repeat my answer;
" It is a ridiculous rebuttal to suggest because we are weak in nature and can not as human beings maintain sinless perfection that such is justification that we are not responsible to struggle to be obedient and we are saved without effort on our part. If your refutation is that we do not need to make a constant effort to obey all of the teachings of Christ, you speak against the testaments of Christ in Scripture itself and there is nothing in Scripture that grants any man the flexibility to be selective in what he chooses to accept or in what he chooses to obey. Unless you can justify such a position from scripture, your position opposes the many, many quoted scriptural proclamations in the previous posts.
As for James, who was he speaking to? Believers. Not those who do not know Christ. When we become spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be, our new faith produces new desires and a new heart. This produces works of love. We do these things because we love God and men. Not in order to merit heaven. That we can never do because our most righteous acts are like filthy rags before God. It is only what Christ did at Calvary, that God approves of and its the righteousness of Christ in us that God sees.
So what is it you are refuting because it seems to me you are saying the same thing with different wording. If you are attempting to suggest because of these things you can not fall to sin and loose your salvation, that is misguided and scripture clearly warns of such. Man retains free will and a weakened humanity. It is free will that validates our sincerity of heart in devotion to God. But it is also free will that can allow us to wonder into sin.

Are you then in agreement that works of charity performed in humility in the love of God toward each other are then necessary to retain salvation?
Abraham was declared righteous by God years before he offered up Issac. When he did offer up his son, this was faith in action, not the action that saved him.
So you are saying your opinion holds more validity than that which James understood from what Christ taught Him? That is a misguided belief
 
Is not following the commandments a work of love? Didn’t Jesus sum up the entire Old Testament with the great commandment: Love God and your neighbor as yourself?
Sure its an act of love. But to claim that you always keep them is less than truthful, isn’t it.
 
As for your assertion that Catholics do good works for merit and not out of love- you are simply wrong to think that. We have advantages that you do not to help us on that way to love. First of all, we have access to God’s grace through the sacraments. This builds up God’s love within us and makes it easier to love because we become one with Christ. Secondly, we have the fullness of truth to help us form our consciences and understand God’s will for us. Thirdly, you miss out on the richness of Catholic Devotions,starting with the Mass and extending to Eucharistic Adoration, the stations on the cross, the Rosary, etc. These devotions have been developed over 2000 years to help us get closer to God.
I don’t doubt that many catholics do good deeds out of love. I was once catholic and saw many good things in works of charity, etc.

But I too have an advantage. Its knowing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in a very real and personal way. He alone is the only way to salvation and eternal life. Without His complete redemptive work on the Cross, my own works would be useless, filthy rags before God.

I have direct access to the throne of God thanks to Christ. That was why the temple veil was torn in two, to signal the end of temple worship and the priesthood. Jesus became the only Mediator between man and God. He reconciled us to the Father. God must be worshiped in spirit. He does not reside in buildings made with human hands. There is now only one priesthood: The royal priesthood made up of true believers in Jesus Christ. To them was given the power (authority) to be sons of God.

By being spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be or we cannot see the kingdom of God, the holy spirit indwells the new believer and God transform the heart and gives us new desires…the desire to see all men saved.
 
Then your pride is showing and you are not being truthful.
I think that you misspoke a little, my friend. Did you forget to say “perfectly” in regards to the commandments? I don’t obey all of them perfectly all of the time, but you were unclear in what you said.
The point is we are sinners, we all have fallen short and the wages of sin is death.
We are not all sinners, but we are all in need of a Saviour. There are plenty of babies, children and those incapable of sin who die in that state of sinlessness. I have no idea if there is someone out there who lives each day loving God and neighbor completely, and neither do you. The bible speaks of a number of individuals who were “blameless” before the Lord - Zecharia and Elizabeth would be two of them.
If we get to heaven its because of the grace of God and what Christ accomplished at Calvary.
Agreed, though Im not sure what your point is exactly. Your comments agree entirely with Catholic theology - did you think Catholics believed differently? We are saved by grace through faith.
But God does not force his grace on us and we can choose to lose faith. Knowingly engaging in certain serious sins constitutes choosing to ignore God and ignore our neighbor - it is a form of rejecting God’s grace. If we do that unrepentantly we will not inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven). Here are the 3 verses I provided for you which clearly illustrate this point. They are written to those who have been “saved” who have been “washed” and received the “Spirit”: it is written to Christians.
Eph 5:5 ** "Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.** Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient."
Im sure you are familiar with Eph 2:8-9, this first verse was written to the very same individuals who “have been saved by grace through faith…” Notice that despite having been “saved” they are warned about jeopardizing their inheritance in the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:5-9
"Can it be that there is not one among you wise enough to be able to settle a case between brothers? But rather brother goes to court against brother, and that before unbelievers?..it is…a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated? Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. **Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Notice the “brothers” buzzword? He’s addressing Christians who are “cheating” their brothers. He calls it an “injustice” and then says…"Do you not know that the unjust (ie those who “inflict injustice and cheat”) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Well YD, did you not know that?
Gal 5:19-20
**Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Like I said before, I believe every Christian knows these truths in their hearts, regardless of whether they are prepared - due to pride, addiction to sin or anger at the Church - to admit it.

Blessings!
 
Justification is grounded in the notion of Adoption. To be part of God’s family, we must be Adopted, receiving the Holy Spirit of Adoption in our souls. Nothing we do can “buy” this adoption, no “works”, no nothing, it’s a gracious adoption that we never deserved but God will give to those who humbly ask Him.

Now, once we’re adopted, we’re called to grow into spiritually mature children, growing up to receive our Father’s inheritance which we as adopted children are entitled to. This is done by ‘good works’. On the other hand, we can repudiate and lose our adoption, and thus loose our rights as children, through grave sin. Grave sin, mortal sin, is effectively saying “I don’t want to be an adopted child anymore.”

The Protestant notion of justification has confused and perverted this, grounding justification on the notion of passing an exam. Since we cannot pass the exam, the Protestant says Jesus passed it for us, keeping the Law perfectly in our place. (Something the Bible never teaches) As a result, they believe God gives us a “passing grade” to enter into Heaven. At this point, it logically makes no sense that our ‘works’ play any role in getting to heaven, since God already “Passed” us based on Christ’s perfect test score. THIS is why Protestants object to “works”. While this is logical in many ways, it is not Biblical at all.
Great post.

Although I would say that even if we repudiate our adoption, we don’t lose it, we still have our rights as children. That is, our rights are there waiting for us if we repent, and return to our Heavenly Father. It is like the Prodigal Son–even while he was out prodigalizing and sleeping with the pigs, he was still his father’s son, and heir. However, it did him no good until he decided to return home, where his father was waiting with open arms for his son’s return.
 
But I too have an advantage. Its knowing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in a very real and personal way. He alone is the only way to salvation and eternal life. Without His complete redemptive work on the Cross, my own works would be useless, filthy rags before God.
I am curious. You are tossing out a lot of the Protestant Buzz Phrases. Do you think you are unique and that Catholics do not know Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior and have a deep relationship with Him both in person and within the community of believers? Do you know that it was inconceivable in the apostolic era to seperate faith from the community and that Paul in particular would have been highly irritated at any notion of a lone ranger sort of Christianity where one can have faith seperate from The Church - the pillar and foundation of truth? God has chosen a PEOPLE onto himself - “…a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.”
I have direct access to the throne of God thanks to Christ. That was why the temple veil was torn in two, to signal the end of temple worship and the priesthood. Jesus became the only Mediator between man and God. He reconciled us to the Father. God must be worshiped in spirit. He does not reside in buildings made with human hands. There is now only one priesthood: The royal priesthood made up of true believers in Jesus Christ. To them was given the power (authority) to be sons of God.
You are inventing your own theology here and fabricating new words that scripture does not contain. Where in scripture does it say that the priesthood and the apostolic authority are revoked??? This is a FALSE notion and a grave error. There are two priesthoods - a universal priesthood of God’s people (The Church) AND the ministerial priesthood initiated in the upper room when Jesus broke bread and wine made it His body and blood by His Word and gave it to His hand selected disciples. The Catholic Church bishops (and their assistants - priests) are the only valid successors to the apostolic priesthood. This priesthood is a new priesthood in Christ formed after the order of Melchizedek - “you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek”. Only one time before in history before the Protestant rebellion did God’s people (the universal priesthood) try to usurp the ministerial priesthood and that was Korah’s rebellion (Numbers). And we know what happened to Korah and his men - he was swallowed alive into the bowels of the earth and his men were incinerated into ash by holy fire from heaven. Don’t you think this is a good warning not to think like this ever again? Only a consecrated and hand selected apostolic successor who has been ordained (prayed over and laid on hands) by an existing Catholic (or Orthodox) bishop has the supernatural authority and power to appoint ministerial priests/bishops. Everyone else is a pretender and speaks on his own authority with no sanction from God.
By being spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be or we cannot see the kingdom of God, the holy spirit indwells the new believer and God transform the heart and gives us new desires…the desire to see all men saved.
This is very Catholic - what all Christians do when baptised by water using the proper Trinitarian formula. But it takes a life long cooperation with God to stay in that state of grace and to be sanctified and perfected. Those who do not perfect themselves in their lifetimes due to habitual sin and who die with no grave sins must go to purgatory to complete their sanctification. Those who die unrepentant go to hell. And a number of very holy men and women who do perfect themselves in this life go straight to heaven.

BF
 
I don’t doubt that many catholics do good deeds out of love. I was once catholic and saw many good things in works of charity, etc.

But I too have an advantage. Its knowing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in a very real and personal way. He alone is the only way to salvation and eternal life. Without His complete redemptive work on the Cross, my own works would be useless, filthy rags before God.

I have direct access to the throne of God thanks to Christ. That was why the temple veil was torn in two, to signal the end of temple worship and the priesthood. Jesus became the only Mediator between man and God. He reconciled us to the Father. God must be worshiped in spirit. He does not reside in buildings made with human hands. There is now only one priesthood: The royal priesthood made up of true believers in Jesus Christ. To them was given the power (authority) to be sons of God.

By being spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be or we cannot see the kingdom of God, the holy spirit indwells the new believer and God transform the heart and gives us new desires…the desire to see all men saved.
My misguided brother, first let me say in all sincerity and without any hesitation that there is no such being as an ex-Catholic, as one can not refuse what one has already been given, only discard it. You suffer from the same ignorance to your Catholic Faith as I once did for 25 years and once becoming aware of that ignorance, it leaves the disfigurement of shame and sadness for what had been so sadly lost in rejection out of ignorance to the True teachings of Christ and the most intimate relationship one can attain with Him through His Body, the Church. That His Church is in fact His Body is the written Word in Scripture and nothing you choose to accept in your adopted beliefs erases that proclamation or any other attestation as to the validity of His Church and that there is ONLY one Church we are to belong to. As Scripture demands in the name of Jesus Christ Himself, that we are to remain;

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

Your opinions are in opposition to much of Scripture including but not limited to the previous. Scripture is also not selectively available meaning you can not choose only that which can be distorted to personal opinions while rejecting the remainder. Scripture does not conflict with itself and if you interpret something in scripture to fit what you believe but it doesn’t teach in unison with other scripture, your interpretation is distorted to say the least. It must all serve to teach in unison.

You believe you “have an advantage” claiming you “know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior in a very real and Personal way”, but perhaps you can explain why you didn’t know that as a practicing Catholic, or do you blame the Catholic Church as at fault you didn’t pursue knowing Him as you should have in your maturity?
And if you now know Him as you believe you do, why then are you remaining in opposition to the above verse in 1 Corinthians CH1 and why would you not return to the Body of Christ, Jesus Himself calls us to belong to as Scripture defines and of which has proclaimed His teachings fully and consistently for 2000 years, validated through history, of which He is the Head? Rather you now accept and adopt what others tell you instead of what Jesus Himself has taught us and warned us of in His foretellings, and what His Church teaches as commissioned directly by Him to the apostles, then handed on through their successors. Ask yourself why that is. Is it not easier to believe what you now believe and less burdensome? Of course, it simplifies what you can accept, its more convenient and offers you the way to reject what you don’t care for. There are tens of thousands of these protestant born systems of belief to choose the most fitting to the mind. Again, this I shamefully, personally recognize from experience and that of others no different than you.

Yes, of course he alone is the only way to salvation and eternal life, and yes of course without His complete redemptive Work on the cross, your and our works would be useless, filthy rags before God. But why didn’t you know this when you were united in His Body as a practicing Catholic, or again do you blame the Catholic Church as at fault you didn’t pursue knowing Him as you should have in your maturity? But you are not only no longer at an advantage, you are self-disadvantaged because you did not know these things as you should have when “Catholic” and have discarded the unity in the Body that is His, all because you did not pursue the knowledge of faith He made available to you but rather abandoned it to pursue beliefs that came easier to you to adopt with less “responsibilities” imposed. How is this obvious? Because you in all likelihood didn’t search in Scripture and in the teachings and writings of the Apostolic and Early fathers to learn from, you went outside and adopted opinions of others and your own and accepted the selective references they preferred to limit themselves to which is obvious based on the things you should have know in the Catholic Faith but believe you only learned outside of her.

You claim you “have direct access to the throne of God thanks to Christ.” That access is through Him as the high Priest of His Church, that Church being Hiss Body and of which you were once unified with but have since rejected. Do you need to see all the Words of Scripture that attest to what I am expressing to you? Because until you awaken to this, you are rejecting a major degree of scripture that directs us in our True relationship with Christ in this life.

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You claim “that was why the temple veil was torn in two, to signal the end of temple worship and the priesthood.” If this were true, there is a great deal of Scripture that is wrongfully written, as the very origin of the hierarchy of the Church Jesus founded upon the apostles is clearly described in its early formation including attesting to the first distinctive levels of the religious orders, and this is further confirmed in its continued growth in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, the earliest successors to the apostles.

Christ formed His own Church and selected His own representatives to continue His Gospel and the growth of His body, His bride, the Church, the mass is the continued celebration of the Eucharist as He also requested, this is His Church in unison with the disciples, the students, the faithful.
 
You claim “Jesus became the only Mediator between man and God. He reconciled us to the Father.” Yes, and as He said, He would never abandon His Church but would be with her until the consummation of the world, He is the High Priest, that it would never fall, and that it would be guided by the Holy Spirit who would guide her and reveal to her that which belongs unto Him. And by the Father, Jesus was given the power to reconcile all things in Heaven and on Earth to and through Himself. This includes the Church He established for the salvation that all man MAY be saved. But it is not proclaimed that man can pick up the written Gospel, pick out of it what he choose to accept based on His own opinions and reject the direction He gives us or the body He is the Head of.

You claim “God must be worshiped in spirit. He does not reside in buildings made with human hands. There is now only one priesthood: The royal priesthood made up of true believers in Jesus Christ. To them was given the power (authority) to be sons of God.”
You have again adopted a distorted view in opposition to Scripture itself. Previously you said the tearing of the veil signaled the end to the priesthood, now you take a reference to another verse and claim we all are priests. If you knew your Catholic Faith as you should have you would understand what priesthood refers to and how it is established through Christ.

From the CCC;
**783 **Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them.

**784 **On entering the People of God through faith and Baptism, one receives a share in this people’s unique, *priestly *vocation: “Christ the Lord, high priest taken from among men, has made this new people ‘a kingdom of priests to God, his Father.’ The baptized, by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are *consecrated *to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood.”

**785 **“The holy People of God shares also in Christ’s *prophetic *office,” above all in the supernatural sense of faith that belongs to the whole People, lay and clergy, when it “unfailingly adheres to this faith . . . once for all delivered to the saints,” and when it deepens its understanding and becomes Christ’s witness in the midst of this world.

**786 **Finally, the People of God shares in the *royal *office of Christ. He exercises his kingship by drawing all men to himself through his death and Resurrection. Christ, King and Lord of the universe, made himself the servant of all, for he came “not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” For the Christian, “to reign is to serve him,” particularly when serving “the poor and the suffering, in whom the Church recognizes the image of her poor and suffering founder.” The People of God fulfills its royal dignity by a life in keeping with its vocation to serve with Christ.

By being spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be or we cannot see the kingdom of God, the holy spirit indwells the new believer and God transform the heart and gives us new desires. the desire to see all men saved.

You were born again when Baptized, that is Scriptural. No one can be born over and over again, there is but one rebirth. Although it seems to some like a great way to hid behind them all the past lived in ignorance, claiming yet another rebirth in Christ doesn’t give us another “starting new“ as some would wish to believe. What happens subsequently to that first rebirth, through sin or ignorance, is not automatically washed away again because we go elsewhere to be “re-baptized”. Through Jesus, is the only way to the Father, and there is but one church founded by Jesus Christ in His Blood of which He is the High Priest and calls all man to become one with and of which said Church is His Body in which is the united of all His faithful, One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism. And that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

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Perhaps you can justify your rejection of the Church and the hierarchy including the levels of priesthood verified in Scripture, not getting into the Apostolic Successors at this point. The following verses attest to the original establishment of that one Church Jesus founded with His Blood;

Recorded history proves the origin and lineage of the Catholic Church from the establishment laid by Jesus through His apostles and their successors. The Apostles continued the growth and establishment of the Church through the assignment of their successors and the formation of the hierarchy. These are the very same Faithful followers who came to be know as “Christians” in Antioch and a short time later recognized as the “universal” or “Catholic Church”. Through the Gospel Jesus proclaims the Church He founded will never fall but He also clearly warned there would be corrupt men (wolves) who would violate her and deceive others. That those corrupt would cause many to follow the wrong path by distorting His word not only from outside His Church but from within at times. All of these prophesy we have seen including the corruption outside as well as those who deceived with His word from within the Church such as Martin Luther. There are many verses in Gospel that point all these violations against His Church out. It is also proclaimed that the Church WILL be of one God and One Faith and nowhere in scripture does it say derivatives with there own beliefs will be acceptable. It is specific to only one Faith and one God. The following verses are some of those attesting to these prophecies and proclamations;
Latin Vulgate (The first Holy Bible compiled, translated to Latin and canonized by the Catholic Church)

Jesus established and protects His Church;
Jesus said,
Mat. Ch16; 15-19 “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus promises to be with His Church always;

*Matthew CH28; 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. *

The Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth;
*John CH16; 12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. *

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth;
*1 Timothy CH3; 13 For they that have ministered well, shall purchase to themselves a good degree, and much confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14 These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. *

He who rejects the Church rejects Christ;
**Luke CH10; 16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me. **

Jesus prayed that we would be one;
John CH17; 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

There must be no divisions among us;
**1 Corinthians CH1; 6 As the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 So that nothing is wanting to you in any grace, waiting for the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 Who also will confirm you unto the end without crime, in the day of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful: by whom you are called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. **

Jesus warns Simon Peter of the intent of satan to attack and separate the faithful within His Church;
Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

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Jesus speaks of the unification through His Church of all those who will accept His word and come together in Him;
“…I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.” (Jn 10:14-16)

Jesus warns of the things to come, both in and of His Church and the world in general, and attests to our salvation through perseverance in Faith;
Matthew CH24; 4 “And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. 6 And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.”

Again we are warned of deceit and corruption of His word both from within and outside of His Church;
Acts Ch20; 28
“Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

There is but one Body, the Church, guided by the One Spirit, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism;
Ephesians CH4
; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

1 Corinthians CH12; “12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit (The Holy Spirit) were we all baptized into one body (Church), whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. 14 For the body also is not one member, but many (the established church including the faithful). 15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body? 20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body. **
*21 And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you. 22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary. 23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness. 24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, 25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another. *
26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. ”

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Colossians CH1; 18 “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20 And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven*.
21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.”
***** 
***Who has the credibility to question the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church and so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as and when He determines appropriate to Him? Does man know better than God and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that? No where in Scripture does it say the Church Jesus founded would end, become corrupt and fail or be reestablished at any time or by any man before His return. Just the opposite is the truth. God proclaims through scripture everything but these things will occur. Yet many have been mislead into accepting the personal beliefs and disbeliefs of individual men and women who did not have the faith or knowledge to accept the complete teachings of our Lord, establishing their own distorted faith through individual interpretations. For those with doubts, If in fact the Catholic Church was not the true Church as some other “Christian” faiths were led to believe, one would have to know which Faith was the True Faith. After all, there must be one (and only one) because the Bible testifies to it and to the fact it must be visible, obvious, and is of only “one God, one Faith, one body and one Baptism”… So which one has been established by Jesus through the Apostles and their successors and has maintained consistency since His crucifixion without interruption as Jesus proclaimed AND has all the Characteristics to identify it Biblically? Only the Catholic Church.
 

He that believeth on him is not confiscated: but he that believeth not is guilty already … He that believeth on the Son hath immortal lifespan: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see history; but the ira of God abideth on him.​

Seo Servicess
 

He that believeth on him is not confiscated: but he that believeth not is guilty already … He that believeth on the Son hath immortal lifespan: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see history; but the ira of God abideth on him.​

This is true or utterly false depending on what YOU mean by belief.

Scroll up and SEE Jesus’ own words - “He that PERSISTS in the faith shall be saved”. Belief is NOT a mere lip service attestation - but rather a living faith that is obedient to ALL Jesus taught - including obedience to His appointed disciples and their successors. Believing is not a one time event - it is a life long relationship. Belief means one avoids grave sin and when falling into grave sin - one repents EACH AND EVER TIME and seeks apostolic absolution ( Math 16:19). There is NO such thing as belief in Jesus without also accepting His Bride - the Church. Rejecting the apostolic priesthood and The Catholic Church is to reject Christ. That is to believe in a recent neo-Christian idea - a perverse teaching invented by men of seared. rebellious and perverse consciences that lure many to destruction through their own wild and rogue ideas.

Matthew 16:19 I will give YOU [ed: Peter in union with the apostles] the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

No mere man can DARE to presume his sins are forgiven by simply praying to God and saying “sorry - won’t do it again”. ALL grave post baptismal sins normally require apostolic absolution from a Catholic bishop or priest (or Orthodox) to be certain one is forgiven. Spreading heretical teaching are worthy of a curse as they are anathema (ref Gal 1:9); such a thing is GRAVE matter. Protestantism is GRAVE matter and is anathema and worthy of damnation for creating false gospel messages and factions. God help the reformers for the wounds to Christianity that they have inflicted.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
As for your assertion that Catholics do good works for merit and not out of love- you are simply wrong to think that. We have advantages that you do not to help us on that way to love. First of all, we have access to God’s grace through the sacraments. This builds up God’s love within us and makes it easier to love because we become one with Christ. Secondly, we have the fullness of truth to help us form our consciences and understand God’s will for us. Thirdly, you miss out on the richness of Catholic Devotions,starting with the Mass and extending to Eucharistic Adoration, the stations on the cross, the Rosary, etc. These devotions have been developed over 2000 years to help us get closer to God.
Good, then I assume you will never again claim that Catholics only do good works to gain heaven.
But I too have an advantage. Its knowing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in a very real and personal way. He alone is the only way to salvation and eternal life. Without His complete redemptive work on the Cross, my own works would be useless, filthy rags before God.
How is this an advantage over Catholics? Do you think that a devout Catholic, who goes to mass every day and practices the catholic devotions such as Eucharistic adoration isn’t forging a personal relationship with Jesus. What do you really do that a devout Catholic Doesn’t do to forge a relationship with Jesus? Can you name a single thing? And what does a devout Catholic do that you don’t do? Lets start with recieving Jesus in the Eucharist.
I have direct access to the throne of God thanks to Christ. That was why the temple veil was torn in two, to signal the end of temple worship and the priesthood. Jesus became the only Mediator between man and God. He reconciled us to the Father. God must be worshiped in spirit. He does not reside in buildings made with human hands. There is now only one priesthood: The royal priesthood made up of true believers in Jesus Christ. To them was given the power (authority) to be sons of God.
By being spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be or we cannot see the kingdom of God, the holy spirit indwells the new believer and God transform the heart and gives us new desires…the desire to see all men saved. Of course it does This is through baptism. John 3: you must be born of Spirit AND water…
 
Do you think that a devout Catholic, who goes to mass every day and practices the catholic devotions such as Eucharistic adoration isn’t forging a personal relationship with Jesus. What do you really do that a devout Catholic Doesn’t do to forge a relationship with Jesus? Can you name a single thing?
Yes, he doesn’t “forge” a relationship with Christ. He entered into an eternal relationship with Christ at the time of personal belief in Him. It’s part and parcel of the saving work of Christ.

I think Luther was was right-on when he wrote in his commentary on the Book of Galatians:Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”

“…in Christ neither circumcision,” that is, no works, no service, no worshipping, no kind of life in this world, but faith without any trust in works or merit, avails before God. On the right hand, he shuts out all the slothful and idle persons, who say, if faith justifies without works, let us work nothing, but only believe and do what we list. Not so, you enemies of grace; Paul says otherwise. And although it is true that only faith justifies, it is not idle, but occupied and exercised in working through love. Paul, therefore, in this place, sets forth the whole life of a Christian, namely that inwardly it consists in faith towards God, and outwardly in charity (love) and good works towards our neighbor. Inwardly before God, who has no need of our works; and outwardly before men, whom our faith profits nothing, but who have need of our charity (love) and of our works. Here he (Paul) joins faith with charity (love) and good works, that is to say, he speaks of the external office thereof, which is to stir us up to good works, and to bring forth in us the fruits of charity (love), to the profit of our neighbor."IOW, works are external and are to the profit of our “neighbor,” not for the purpose of “forging” a relationship with Christ which relationship is/was based on our inward faith in Him alone (resulting in our justification: our new, righteous standing before God).

Elsewhere Paul writes:Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us (who are saved) * to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself* (through the redemption in His blood) a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.“And in Eph. 2:10 Paul writes that it’s those who “have been saved BY GRACE through FAITH, and that NOT of themselves” (Eph. 2:8-9) who are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus” (there’s the eternal relationship) FOR good works…,” not BY them.

Notice the congruity in Paul’s teachings, by the Holy Spirit, concerning one’s internal faith which established (once for all) the believers eternal relationship with Christ (apart from any personal merit, whatsoever) and the outward manifestation of that inward faith to the profit (benefit) of others. This is sound doctrine - to the glory of God alone.
 
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