Faith alone or not?

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Do you think that a devout Catholic, who goes to mass every day and practices the catholic devotions such as Eucharistic adoration isn’t forging a personal relationship with Jesus. What do you really do that a devout Catholic Doesn’t do to forge a relationship with Jesus? Can you name a single thing?

Moondweller, come on. There is no difference here. You are debating words not intent. Prove to me that a devout Catholic doesn’t enter into an eternal relaitionship with Christ.

I think Luther was was right-on when he wrote in his commentary on the Book of Galatians:Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”

“…in Christ neither circumcision,” that is, no works, no service, no worshipping, no kind of life in this world, but faith without any trust in works or merit, avails before God. On the right hand, he shuts out all the slothful and idle persons, who say, if faith justifies without works, let us work nothing, but only believe and do what we list. Not so, you enemies of grace; Paul says otherwise. And although it is true that only faith justifies, it is not idle, but occupied and exercised in working through love. Paul, therefore, in this place, sets forth the whole life of a Christian, namely that inwardly it consists in faith towards God, and outwardly in charity (love) and good works towards our neighbor. Inwardly before God, who has no need of our works; and outwardly before men, whom our faith profits nothing, but who have need of our charity (love) and of our works. Here he (Paul) joins faith with charity (love) and good works, that is to say, he speaks of the external office thereof, which is to stir us up to good works, and to bring forth in us the fruits of charity (love), to the profit of our neighbor."IOW, works are external and are to the profit of our “neighbor,” not for the purpose of “forging” a relationship with Christ which relationship is/was based on our inward faith in Him alone (resulting in our justification: our new, righteous standing before God).

Elsewhere Paul writes:Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us (who are saved) * to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior*, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself (through the redemption in His blood) a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.“And in Eph. 2:10 Paul writes that it’s those who “have been saved BY GRACE through FAITH, and that NOT of themselves…” (Eph. 2:8-9) who are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus” (there’s the eternal relationship) FOR good works…,” not BY them.

Notice the congruity in Paul’s teachings, by the Holy Spirit, concerning one’s internal faith which established (once for all) the believers eternal relationship with Christ (apart from any personal merit, whatsoever) and the outward manifestation of that inward faith to the profit (benefit) of others. This is sound doctrine - to the glory of God alone.

Actually, St. Paul also wrote in Romans 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.

So you see, works of love are profitable not only to our neighbor but to us as well. And as is very clear from the above, perseverance in good works leads to eternal life while those that do evil will be condemned to hell. And this interpretation of Paul is in clear language, unlike your interpretation, which is incorrectly inferred…

 

[clmowry]

It just amazes me how many hoops people will jump through to separate faith from love when the separation offers nothing but destruction.

I can sympathize with those who argue that it’s “Faith Alone” but include as part of the definition of “Faith” [among many other things] is walking in the good works God has prepared for us .

This doctrine of “belief alone” [professing that “love” is not necessary and completely independent of faith] on the other hand is absolutely contrary to a plain reading of scripture.

Could someone explain to me how this doctrine of separation helps us one iota in our walk with Christ?

“Have a relationship with Christ, that’s all that matters.” **

“If you have a real relationship with Christ, then of course you will love, but it doesn’t matter at all if you do.”

I mean I know we have verses like:

James 2:17 “So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

But obviously since works of love don’t matter to God this verse doesn’t mean what it says.

Just like this one:

Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.****”**

clearly says: “IOW, works are external and are to the profit of our “neighbor,” not for the purpose of “forging” a relationship with Christ which relationship is/was based on our inward faith in Him alone (resulting in our justification: our new, righteous standing before God).”

Of course the verse actually says precisely none of those things, in fact it’s a direct contradiction of those things, but that’s what it says none the less…

I declare myself the universal language police. The use of “alone” or “sola” is formulating Christian Doctrine forces people to learn doublespeak and is therefore no longer allowed.

The all powerful Chuck has spoken [pay no attention to the man behind that curtain…]

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller, come on. There is no difference here. You are debating words not intent. Prove to me that a devout Catholic doesn’t enter into an eternal relaitionship with Christ.

Do you HAVE (possess now and forever) eternal (everlasting) life, Paul? Do you then deny your doctrine of “mortal” sins? Do you then accept, as revealed in the written Word of God, that sinners are justified before God by faith and “as a gift through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus?” (Rom. 3:24, 30)?

If your answer is “no,” then there is a vast difference and it’s not merely words (semantics) being discussed here, is it?

Actually, St. Paul also wrote in Romans 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.

Paul is speaking truth in these verses. God certainly WILL render to each man “according” to his deeds (the true believer will receive “rewards,” or not, accordingly: 1 Cor. 3:10-15). But Paul does not say in those verses that each man (Jew or Gentile) will be either pardoned or condemned BY his deeds. Nor does he even remotely teach there that one “forges” an eternal relationship with Christ based on deeds. Your interpretation is completely out of context and you must go on to read what Paul says in chapter three concerning “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who BELIEVE” (Rom. 3:22), since ALL sinned (past tense) and (continually, present tense) fall short of the glory of God (v. 23).

And again his congruity concerning this God glorifying doctrine in Phil. 3:9 (and throughout all his Epistles)hil 3:8 “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (the principle of: i.e., works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,”

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
Moondweller, come on. There is no difference here. You are debating words not intent. Prove to me that a devout Catholic doesn’t enter into an eternal relaitionship with Christ.

You are correct in saying that if a person commits mortal sin and is not reconciled to God sacramentally, then they will be condemned to hell. But that is as true for non-Catholics as it is for Catholics. My question to you is what makes you special? Catholics put their faith in Christ just as surely as you do. We just also recognize that while Christ does his part, we also have to do ours by following him. Do you deny this?

Quote:
Actually, St. Paul also wrote in Romans 2:

Moondweller, you are decieving yourself. He says clearly that the reward IS eternal life and that the criteria for that reward is perseverence in good works. Its in plain language. As is the corrolary that those that do evil will be condemned to wrath and fury. Then he makes clear in the subsequent chapters that faith is a required underpinning of Good works.

And again his congruity concerning this God glorifying doctrine in Phil. 3:9 (and throughout all his Epistles):
Phil 3:8 “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (the principle of: i.e., works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,”

Sure, Paul is consistent in saying that you get the grace to do good works through faith and the sacraments. He repeats this throughout his epistles… That is fundamental to Catholicism. But that is not all there is. He also points out that you must follow persist in love to go to heaven and he points out that without love, your faith is worthless (1corinthians 13). And he spents a large portion of every epistle, making sure people know how to live the Christian life, following Jesus’s example. There is more to getting to heaven than just Faith. You must put that Faith into action it is dead.

---

 

[yankee_drifter]

What is your point? I fI sin, I go to confession and try to avoid the sin in the future. What do you do?

The point is God says there’s no one righteous. All our most righteous acts are like filthy rags to God. Trying not to sin is a losing battle. God said all have sinned and the wages of sin is death. It doesn’t matter how devout one tries to be or goes to church faithfully and participates in all the works of the church, we are sinners who deserve death. Unless one recognizes that he cannot please God through human merits he is kidding himself. If we don’t acknowledge that we are lost sinners who can do nothing to save ourselves and confess that Christ alone saves and there’s no other way to God the father and salvation, then we are denying the full redemptive work of Christ at Calvary. At the moment we turn to Christ and trust Him alone for our salvation that’s when our sins are forgiven and we have the righteousness of Christ in us. That is what God approves us. Not our own righteousness.

So by saying you’re a faithful and devout churchgoer doesn’t save. The catholic goes to a human mediator to seek forgiveness, but you have been told many times and God’s word confirms this: That Christ alone is the Mediator between God and men.

 

[Cruxis117]

The point is God says there’s no one righteous.

• James 2:18,19 “But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.”*
  That right there shows you that Faith alone is not enough. Furthermore, you have this:

Proverbs 24:16 "for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there was a blameless and upright man named Job, who feared God and avoided evil.

You forget that Job was considered to be righteous, as well as Isaiah. There are men considered to be righteous in the bible.

 

[paul_c]

The point is God says there’s no one righteous. All our most righteous acts are like filthy rags to God. Trying not to sin is a losing battle. God said all have sinned and the wages of sin is death. It doesn’t matter how devout one tries to be or goes to church faithfully and participates in all the works of the church, we are sinners who deserve death. Unless one recognizes that he cannot please God through human merits he is kidding himself. If we don’t acknowledge that we are lost sinners who can do nothing to save ourselves and confess that Christ alone saves and there’s no other way to God the father and salvation, then we are denying the full redemptive work of Christ at Calvary. At the moment we turn to Christ and trust Him alone for our salvation that’s when our sins are forgiven and we have the righteousness of Christ in us. That is what God approves us. Not our own righteousness.

So by saying you’re a faithful and devout churchgoer doesn’t save. The catholic goes to a human mediator to seek forgiveness, but you have been told many times and God’s word confirms this: That Christ alone is the Mediator between God and men.

This doesn’t make any sense. God calls us to be holy. Christian morality is all through scriptures. He knows our limitations and you would have to think he would be pleased with those that make an effort to follow Christ. I think its obvious that he would condemn those that just throw up their hands and say they can’t stop sinning without making an effort to be righteous. And you and I both know that some people are very holy while not perfect., while others are not. Don’t you think there’s merit in being holy?

 

[Cruxis117]

Unless one recognizes that he cannot please God through human merits he is kidding himself…

James 2:20-24

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Hmm, it appears that Scripture says different. I’ll stick with Scripture

 

[bona_fides_1]

MD and Yankee - you need to face the harsh reality that the Reformers invented a new theology in an attempt to usurp the AUTHORITY of the Church so they could then teach you whatever they wanted and secularize the faith into a new “Christianity Lite” - essentially an easy Christianity that would be wildly popular with the populace. A sort of “eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow we die - but so what because now we are saved!”.

It’s SNAKE OIL and you know it in your hearts.

Faith CAN NOT be seperated from Love nor from Reason NOR FROM AUTHORITY any more so than the Church that Christ founded on Peter can FAIL (the gates of hell shell NOT prevail against it) nor anymore so than you can seperate Christ from His Bide and claim you have FAITH in SOME of what Christ commanded while holding His bride in contempt. You CAN"T seperate Christ from His Church - IMPOSSIBLE. You miss the entire new Adam and new Eve theme prefigured since Genesis. You are entirely missing the big picture.

Since you consciously reject the Church that Christ founded and its teachings (the Catholic Church) this verse PROVES that your faith is first a faith in the reformers (or your own wild personal opinions) before it is a faith in Christ; and therefor it is NOT a saving faith since it DENIES CHRISTby DENIYING His Authority vested in His apostolic successors!

Luke 10:16 He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

The “YOU” in that verse refers to The Apostles and their appointed successors - the apostolic succession given in the sacred tradition which is recorded in this case in scripture verses that show how successors were hand selected and then prayed over and then “laid on hands” BY AN EXISTING APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY (e.g. Matthias, Timothy and Paul were ordained in this manner). NO ONE outside of the apostolic succession (e.g. any one not a Catholic or Orthodox Bishop & their appointees) has ANY authority to be teaching scripture and the handed down traditions.** If you consciously reject and disobey a formal Catholic teaching then you disobey Christ Himself and therefor reject Christ. ** That is NOT a faith in Jesus but rather a faith in your OWN PRIVATE RELIGION - mere doctrines of men who preach filthy-rag theology to their own destruction.

BF

 

[yankee_drifter]

• James 2:18,19 “But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.”*
  That right there shows you that Faith alone is not enough. Furthermore, you have this:

Proverbs 24:16 "for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there was a blameless and upright man named Job, who feared God and avoided evil.

You forget that Job was considered to be righteous, as well as Isaiah. There are men considered to be righteous in the bible.

The Holy Bible says there are none who are righteous. No, not one. This isn’t man speaking, but God in His Word. So it can’t be debatable.

Abraham lied and married his wife’s half-sister. David was a fornicator and a murderer, Job accuses God of being unfair, Moses frequently lost his temper, and all the other biblical men were no better. It was not their conduct that pleased God but the very fact that they believed in God. They strove for righteousness but couldn’t do it. They were sinners same as you and I.

As for James, he was speaking to believers, not to the unsaved world. Faith produces works and love. But Jesus said unless we are spiritually born again, we cannot see the kingdom of God. Works alone are meaningless. Striving to be be righteous is a noble thing but we can never achieve it on our own. We must have the righteousness of Christ in us. That can only happen when we humble ourselves and fully confess that we are sinners who deserve death and only the blood of Christ and His complete atonement can save us and make us right with God.

 

[paul_c]

The Holy Bible says there are none who are righteous. No, not one. This isn’t man speaking, but God in His Word. So it can’t be debatable.

Yankee, you saw clearly in the bible that it also calls some men righteous.
One ex
Job 1:1: In the land of Uz there was a blameless and upright man named Job, who feared God and avoided evil
Tell me how your interpretation can be correct if it results in the bible contradicting itself…

Abraham lied and married his wife’s half-sister. David was a fornicator and a murderer, Job accuses God of being unfair, Moses frequently lost his temper, and all the other biblical men were no better.

Who are you to judge these men?

It was not their conduct that pleased God but the very fact that they believed in God. They strove for righteousness but couldn’t do it. They were sinners same as you and I.

Now you are telling us what pleases God. How do you know that God isn’t pleased when people make an effort to be holy, even if they fall short?

As for James, he was speaking to believers, not to the unsaved world.

He was speaking to people who incorrectly believed that Faith wihout works saved. He called them “ignoramus”. You can check it and see for yourself.

Faith produces works and love.

True

But Jesus said unless we are spiritually born again, we cannot see the kingdom of God.

True again. And this comes from Baptism. You must be born again of Spirit AND water. Check out John 3 and Acts 2.

Works alone are meaningless.

They must be done out of love to be spiritually beneficial. If they are done for praise or self aggrandizement, they will not be spiritually beneficial. Jesus covered this in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 6).

Striving to be be righteous is a noble thing but we can never achieve it on our own. We must have the righteousness of Christ in us.

Also True. We call this righteousness of Christ within us “Grace” and we get it through his sacraments.

That can only happen when we humble ourselves and fully confess that we are sinners who deserve death and only the blood of Christ and His complete atonement can save us and make us right with God.

Well, you are partially right here. You get sufficient Grace to be saved through Baptism.
But you must stay in the state of Grace until death to go to heaven. You do his by avoiding Mortal sin and by loving God and Neighbor as Jesus taught. Because of God’s mercy, if we fall from Grace through sin, we can be reconciled to him through the sacrament of reconciliation. This requires contrition (sorrow for sins), confession (to a priest representing Jesus through the Apostolic succession) , repentence (the desire to refrain from future) and penance (reparation for the sin).

So you are correct that we need to humble ourselves and confess our sins to get to heaven. And you are correct that this was made possible by Jesus’s sacrifice. But you miss the part about the sacramental nature of grace and the need to stay in the state of Grace to go to heaven. You are almost there, though. Hopefully, this will help your understanding

 

[Thoughtfulone]

The Holy Bible says there are none who are righteous. No, not one. This isn’t man speaking, but God in His Word. So it can’t be debatable.

Abraham lied and married his wife’s half-sister. David was a fornicator and a murderer, Job accuses God of being unfair, Moses frequently lost his temper, and all the other biblical men were no better. It was not their conduct that pleased God but the very fact that they believed in God. They strove for righteousness but couldn’t do it. They were sinners same as you and I.

As for James, he was speaking to believers, not to the unsaved world. Faith produces works and love. But Jesus said unless we are spiritually born again, we cannot see the kingdom of God. Works alone are meaningless. Striving to be be righteous is a noble thing but we can never achieve it on our own. We must have the righteousness of Christ in us. That can only happen when we humble ourselves and fully confess that we are sinners who deserve death and only the blood of Christ and His complete atonement can save us and make us right with God.

Yes, works alone are meaningless, but so is faith alone. That’s the point, is it not? Faith AND works together. That is what is in the Bible over and over again. I know it’s a hard teaching to accept, because it actually requires something of us . It requires that we actually SHOW our faith through our actions. This has many benefits: It brings others closer to Christ through our example, it reminds us that we are not perfect and in desperate need of Christ’s saving grace, and at the same time it brings us closer to spiritual perfection not only by making us ever-mindful of our thoughts, words and deeds through personal discipline, but through the graces bestowed on us by the sacraments themselves.

Many Protestants here seem to be saying that we are imperfect so why even bother trying at all? With this logic, there is no difference between a person who does their best every day to follow the teachings of Christ with the occasional mis-step and a serial killer who claims to believe in Jesus. That’s ridiculous. If people did not strive for spiritual perfection since the beginning of Christianity, the faith would never have gotten off the ground. Imagine Christianity today without the martyrs, without the saints. Imagine if Joan of Arc had just recanted and not been burned at the stake, if saint Peter had never been crucified, and on and on. Imagine if all the martyrs had just said, “Well, all that’s important is that I PERSONALLY believe and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I don’t have to try to please God because I am already saved.” If that were the case, the faith would never have spread throughout the world because the works that these saints accomplished as a testimony to their faith would have never occurred to inspire 2000 years worth of Christians! Without the "works"of these martyrs and saints, the story of Jesus would have gone into obscurity rather quickly. We are ALL called to draw others to the faith through our works and to continue the work that Christ started in order to spread the faith to everyone. Without these works, all you have is a bunch of unconvincing blabber, and the Bible is clear on that point.(think clanging symbols and noisy gongs). Without works, our Christian faith would have died out long ago.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee, you saw clearly in the bible that it also calls some men righteous.
One ex
Job 1:1: In the land of Uz there was a blameless and upright man named Job, who feared God and avoided evil
Tell me how your interpretation can be correct if it results in the bible contradicting itself…

Who are you to judge these men?

Now you are telling us what pleases God. How do you know that God isn’t pleased when people make an effort to be holy, even if they fall short?

He was speaking to people who incorrectly believed that Faith wihout works saved. He called them “ignoramus”. You can check it and see for yourself.

True

True again. And this comes from Baptism. You must be born again of Spirit AND water. Check out John 3 and Acts 2.

They must be done out of love to be spiritually beneficial. If they are done for praise or self aggrandizement, they will not be spiritually beneficial. Jesus covered this in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 6).

Also True. We call this righteousness of Christ within us “Grace” and we get it through his sacraments.

Well, you are partially right here. You get sufficient Grace to be saved through Baptism.
But you must stay in the state of Grace until death to go to heaven. You do his by avoiding Mortal sin and by loving God and Neighbor as Jesus taught. Because of God’s mercy, if we fall from Grace through sin, we can be reconciled to him through the sacrament of reconciliation. This requires contrition (sorrow for sins), confession (to a priest representing Jesus through the Apostolic succession) , repentence (the desire to refrain from future) and penance (reparation for the sin).

So you are correct that we need to humble ourselves and confess our sins to get to heaven. And you are correct that this was made possible by Jesus’s sacrifice. But you miss the part about the sacramental nature of grace and the need to stay in the state of Grace to go to heaven. You are almost there, though. Hopefully, this will help your understanding

The Bible says there’s no one righteous. In other words we all sin. Even Job. Job was considered upright because he feared God and lived a godly life. He placed his trust in God. The same way we must have faith in Jesus Christ and trust Him for our eternal salavtion… But do you really believe Job was sinless? The Bible says only Christ was sinless. Men were called righteous because they believed on God, not because there’s any righteousness in them. I am not judging when I say that all men sin. We all lie and have impure thoughts, etc. God showed us in the Scriptures, men like you and me, all needing salvation.

No we don’t need to stay in a state of grace to ensure entrance to heaven. We live in a time of grace, thanks to Christ’s once-for all perfect sacrifice. Grace is God’s unmerited favor to those who believe on His Son and place their complete faith and trust in Christ alone to get to heaven. Why are you trusting your church attendance and church rituals? When did God ask this of you? When Did Jesus teach it? What Christ taught was: You must be born again.

What God says it never debatable. God’s Word’s says it is by grace we are saved and **not **of works. Either we believe this or we don’t.

James was speaking to christians. If one were to believe James is saying what you claim, then James contradicts Paul and we have no contradictions in the Holy Bible.

And no I am not “almost there.” I am there already because I am trusting Christ alone and you are trusting your own good deeds.

 

[paul_c]

The Bible says there’s no one righteous. In other words we all sin. Even Job. Job was considered upright because he feared God and lived a godly life. He placed his trust in God. The same way we must have faith in Jesus Christ and trust Him for our eternal salavtion… But do you really believe Job was sinless? The Bible says only Christ was sinless. Men were called righteous because they believed on God, not because there’s any righteousness in them. I am not judging when I say that all men sin. We all lie and have impure thoughts, etc. God showed us in the Scriptures, men like you and me, all needing salvation.

Lets be specific, where does the Bible say that only Christ was sinless? Christians believe that Jesus, as the son of God, WAS sinless, but I don’t think it says that explicitly anywhere in the Bible. And I think you will be similarly hard pressed to find a statement that says no one else was sinless because we believe that Mary was also sinless, being declared full of Grace by the archangel Gabriel at the Annunciation (see Luke). That said, the issue isn’t that men are sinless or perfect. The issue is whether they should work to attain that level. I believe wholeheartedly that the Saints reach a level of holiness where they no longer are tempted to sin mortally. Surely you must have met men that don’t steal, don’t kill, don’t curse, don’t commit adultery, are content with what they have, respect and love God and Neighbor. If not, you need to find a different crowd to hang with…

No we don’t need to stay in a state of grace to ensure entrance to heaven.

I’m sorry, but you have been greatly deceived if you believe that you can go to heaven without God’s grace.

We live in a time of grace, thanks to Christ’s once-for all perfect sacrifice.

So?

Grace is God’s unmerited favor to those who believe on His Son and place their complete faith and trust in Christ alone to get to heaven.

Sure it takes this but you must also do God’s will. Do you remember the parable of the Two sons from Matthew 21:
28 “What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
29 He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
30 The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.
31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.

Do you not understand that words mean nothing, only action. Jesus also made this point in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:21-27):

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

.

 

[paul_c]

Why are you trusting your church attendance and church rituals? When did God ask this of you? When Did Jesus teach it?

Why do I go to mass? To get the grace available in the Eucharist. When did Jesus teach this. Start with John 6, where he said"
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

and couple it with his words at the last supper: (lets use Matthew 26: 26-28)
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

St. Paul also talks of this in 1Corinthians 10:
16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17 Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

And in 1Corinthians 11:
23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

What Christ taught was: You must be born again

What he actually said was this: John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
In this, he is talking to Baptism. Another " ritual” that he told us about. and that Peter reiterated with the first Disciples at Pentacost (Acts 2):
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?”
38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

 

[paul_c]

What God says it never debatable.

Okay, so why do you deny the sacraments that are explicitly discussed above?

God’s Word’s says it is by grace we are saved and **not **of works. Either we believe this or we don’t.

It doesn’t actually say this, though, does it. This is what it really says (Romans 3:28): For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

And Paul’s not denying that good works are necessary to enter heaven. because he just said in Romans 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
What he is Saying is that works Without FAITH are insufficient, just as Faith without works is insufficient.

James was speaking to christians. If one were to believe James is saying what you claim, then James contradicts Paul and we have no contradictions in the Holy Bible.

So, was Paul not also talking to Christians. Why do you assume James is saying anything other than what he so clearly says: Faith without work is dead. And he is not contradicting Paul at all. Paul said works without Faith in not of spiritual benefit. You need both. They are in agreement and St. James is clarifying the issue to those like yourself that incorrectly understood Paul.

And no I am not “almost there.” I am there already because I am trusting Christ alone and you are trusting your own good deeds.

First of all, you are taking a position that Paul addressed in Philippians 3:
8 More than that, I even consider everything as a loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God, depending on faith
10 to know him and the power of his resurrection and (the) sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death,
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, 9 but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus).
13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us, then, who are “perfectly mature” adopt this attitude. And if you have a different attitude, this too God will reveal to you.

So, if St. Paul, who was personally called by the Risen Jesus, was unsure of his entrance into heaven, why do YOU think you are guaranteed heaven?

Secondly, you have a complete misconception of what Catholics believe. We are not Pelagians, who believe that good works are sufficient on their own to get to heaven. We firmly believe that the grace of God is required to enter heaven. We further beleive that we have free will and can choose to cooperate with that grace to be saved, by avoiding sin and loving God and neighbor. Or we can choose to ignore the gift of grace, sin and ulitmately be condemned

 

[Cruxis117]

What God says it never debatable. God’s Word’s says it is by grace we are saved and not of works. Either we believe this or we don’t.

James was speaking to christians. If one were to believe James is saying what you claim, then James contradicts Paul and we have no contradictions in the Holy Bible.

James was speaking to Christians, recorrecting those who thought that faith alone without works of Christian virtue (or good deeds) was advocated by Paul. Note how they both use Abraham as an example. It’s not a contradiction, it is a correction. Because people (like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide people) misunderstand Scripture and Teaching when they themselves are not properly taught.

We NEED faith and we NEED works. This is what Christ’s instituted Church had said, and this is what Scripture had said.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Lets be specific, where does the Bible say that only Christ was sinless? Christians believe that Jesus, as the son of God, WAS sinless, but I don’t think it says that explicitly anywhere in the Bible. And I think you will be similarly hard pressed to find a statement that says no one else was sinless because we believe that Mary was also sinless, being declared full of Grace by the archangel Gabriel at the Annunciation (see Luke). That said, the issue isn’t that men are sinless or perfect. The issue is whether they should work to attain that level. I believe wholeheartedly that the Saints reach a level of holiness where they no longer are tempted to sin mortally. Surely you must have met men that don’t steal, don’t kill, don’t curse, don’t commit adultery, are content with what they have, respect and love God and Neighbor. If not, you need to find a different crowd to hang with…

I’m sorry, but you have been greatly deceived if you believe that you can go to heaven without God’s grace.

So?

Sure it takes this but you must also do God’s will. Do you remember the parable of the Two sons from Matthew 21:
28 “What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
29 He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
30 The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.
31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.

Do you not understand that words mean nothing, only action. Jesus also made this point in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:21-27):

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

.

2 Corinthians 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. It is not possible for any human being born of a woman to be sinless. Mary was not sinless. She had human parents, unlike Christ where the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she was found with child. Mary knew she needed a Savior. In Luke 1:4 Mary Said: and my spirit has begun to rejoice in God my Savior.

But I do have God’s grace. I have assurance of eternal salvation. Something the catholic does not have. But the Bible says believers can have assurance. The apostles had assurance. Why don’t you?

 

[yankee_drifter]

James was speaking to Christians, recorrecting those who thought that faith alone without works of Christian virtue (or good deeds) was advocated by Paul. Note how they both use Abraham as an example. It’s not a contradiction, it is a correction. Because people (like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide people) misunderstand Scripture and Teaching when they themselves are not properly taught.

We NEED faith and we NEED works. This is what Christ’s instituted Church had said, and this is what Scripture had said.

If James taught its Christ PLUS works, then you are saying he contradicts Paul’s teaching. Works is the result of our faith. Faith produces these works. That’s what James is saying.

Before Abraham had done any works he was declared righteous by God. How so? Because he believed in God. What was Abraham doing? Did he go to church? There was were no churches. Did he obey the 10 Commandments? They weren’t given yet. Nor were any of the sacraments.This happened years before Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac. It was his faith in God, not in his works.

 

[paul_c]

2 Corinthians 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. It is not possible for any human being born of a woman to be sinless. Mary was not sinless. She had human parents, unlike Christ where the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she was found with child. Mary knew she needed a Savior. In Luke 1:4 Mary Said: and my spirit has begun to rejoice in God my Savior.

Fair enough. St. Paul recognized Jesus as sinless. Now where does it say that Mary sinned. Just because she recognized that she needed a savior, doesn’t mean she sinned. Jesus’s sacrifice was needed to open heaven, even for the sinless.

But I do have God’s grace. I have assurance of eternal salvation. Something the catholic does not have. But the Bible says believers can have assurance. The apostles had assurance. Why don’t you?

Why do you think you have assurance of Salvation? Where does it say that Beleivers have assurance? St. Paul didn’t have it: Did you read Philipians 3 from my previous post. Here, I’ll give it to you again:

8 More than that, I even consider everything as a loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God, depending on faith
10 to know him and the power of his resurrection and (the) sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death,
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus).
13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us, then, who are “perfectly mature” adopt this attitude. And if you have a different attitude, this too God will reveal to you.

So, if St. Paul, who was personally called by the Risen Jesus, was unsure of his entrance into heaven, why do YOU think you are guaranteed heaven?