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paul_c
Guest
No, of course not. You need both FAITH AND WORKS.
At the same time, if someone says they know Jesus as their Savior, but is serious, unrepetent sinner, would you believe him? Would he go to heaven?
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At the same time, if someone says they know Jesus as their Savior, but is serious, unrepetent sinner, would you believe him? Would he go to heaven?
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moondweller
Guest
From where did you get the idea that we separate faith from love? I defer you to this post. Please read it. And then make your comments based on what is said there, not just ignore its contents.
And in the congruity with Paul’s teachings throughout his Epistles he states in Phil. 3:9hil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., works - now catch the contrast): but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"According to the Scriptures, the righteousness which comes from God is on the basis of FAITH alone.
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yankee_drifter
Guest
James 2:10: For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Jesus said “anyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). We can break a Commandment not just in deeds but thoughts as well.
If you have kept nine of the Ten Commandments, yet told lies, then the bible says you have broken all of the Commandments, because they are all interlinked and you can’t keep one without keeping the others. This is the reason the bible says “who can say ‘I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin’” (Proverbs 20:9)
We have all broken God’s commandments and for that reason, mankind is lost spiritually. The Bible says that the “wages of sin is death”. What is a wage? It is what you earn. We have all sinned and therefore we all have earned death. The Bible says in Ezekiel 18:20, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you have peace? Do you have assurance that you will spend eternity with God? Why does the catholic church say its a sin to have this assurance? The Apostles all had it. The Bible tells us we can have assurance too.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
No. Please take that new, different and false gospel back to the serpent for a refund.
[BIBLEDRB]Mt 24:13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rom 11:22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Phil 2:12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 9:27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 10:11-12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Gal 5:4[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:11-13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 6:4-6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]
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yankee_drifter
Guest
Our assurance of salvation rests on the clear promise of God’s Word.
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).
John 3:36 says, “He that believes has everlasting life, and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”
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Cat_Herder
Guest
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paul_c
Guest
have you read this in context? He’s talking about the sin of favoring the rich over the poor. Then he uses this as a bridge to his fmous discourse on Faith and works, which complete dismantles your argument.
This is true.
This was of course, during the old covenant, when Jesus’s grace did not abound.
This is completely true, unless you return to grace through the sacraments.
Sure as long as we stay in the state of Grace.
Yes, actually I do, and I don’t have to continually state that I am saved to prove it.
Sure, if I stay in the state of grace. But I am not the judge of this, God is.
The Catholic Church teaches that God will be our judge and that we should not be so presumptuous that we make ourselves God. At the same time, if we follow Christ, we have hope that he will have mercy on us and allow us to enter into heaven.
No actually, this is not true. but you have ignored the Biblical warnings that Cat herder showed you. Until you open your mind to the truth, no one can help you.
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clmowry
Guest
Oh I don’t know. Just about every post you write.
Must one who “has been” saved walk in these works of love or not?
Chuck
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Read the whole chapter.
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]
Baptism.
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:18-21[/BIBLEDRB]
Works done in Christ.
Look up.
[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]
Only those that work out their faith, keeping His commandments, have a faith that counts.
[BIBLEDRB]James 2:18-20[/BIBLEDRB]
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clmowry
Guest
It’s a yes or no question. Why can’t you answer it?
Must one who “has been” saved walk in these works of love or not?
Chuck
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paul_c
Guest
Moondweller, the core problem with the Reformed camp is that they made up this concept of being saved for all time with a simple statement of faith because they could not accept the words of Christ and the apostles that once you get in the state of grace through baptism, you must avoid sin and stay in the state of Grace to get to heaven. This was always what was taught in the church. Your version of salvation is a man made innovation. Have you ever read the canon’s from Trent and Calvin’s Antidote in response. Just the very tone can show you who is representing God.From where did you get the idea that we separate faith from love? I defer you to this post. Please read it. And then make your comments based on what is said there, not just ignore its contents.You’re referring to Eph. 2:10. Please don’t lift it out of its context. Those “good works,” IN CONTEXT, are prepared beforehand for those who are now “created in Christ Jesus” for them, that they should walk in them. And those who are “created in Christ Jesus” (contrary to those merely born in Adam) are those who by grace (not so-called dispensed “graces”) “have been saved through faith; and that not of themselves; the gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9).
IOW, those prepared beforehand good works are for those who ARE (“have been”) saved, not for the hope of being saved. You see, the core problem with Catholicism is it has no concept of “saved.” Why? Because it adds works to its doctrine of salvation. And for this reason salvation for Catholics is a future event (or not) based on one’s present performance. Oh, a Catholic will parrot the words, “I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” But in truth no Catholic can, nor is allowed to, believe he/she is SAVED (a present, eternal reality based on an historical event: the cross of Christ). Because of the addition of works to salvation a Catholic cannot accept the words of Paul where he said concerning the gospel (good news) of the cross of Christ:Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."The “righteous” {man} in this context is the one who does not work, but “believes in Him who justifies the ungodly.” Whose faith (in Christ alone) God reckoned to him as righteousness (like Abraham in Gen. 15:6; hence, a son of Abraham). And as even King David spoke of the the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness “apart from works” (Rom. 4:1-6).
And in the congruity with Paul’s teachings throughout his Epistles he states in Phil. 3:9
Every man born of/in Adam is in need of righteousness, “even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe” (Rom. 3:22) Else he will not see God. This righteousness (justification) must be reckoned to him by God on the basis of faith (in Christ, this side of the cross) alone (according to the Scriptures).
The Scriptures are clear. You see, we who have believed are not ashamed of that gospel (good news), but wholly and joyfully embrace it. For it’s “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) and preserved in Holy Writ for all subsequent generations.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
As much as you want to believe that Paul taught salvation by faith alone rather than by a working faith, that is not what he taught.
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:1-11[/BIBLEDRB]
Your post is being ignored because it is a disortion of Scripture.
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moondweller
Guest
You fail to comprehend the context of that abounding “grace.” That “grace” (not so-called dispensed “graces”) abounds all the more in comparison to the sins (transgressions) that increased with the giving of the Law: “Thou shall not…” (the Decalogue). That abounding grace is for the power of salvation through faith in Christ alone, not for giving men power to merit righteousness through law (commandment) keeping (works):Rom 5:18-21 “So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase (not for sake of righteousness); but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”“Through the Law” (the whole Law: the sacrificial system and the Decalogue) “comes the knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20) - not salvation. Hence its “ministry of condemnation” and “death” (2 Cor. 3:7-9 refers strictly to the Decalogue). Hence, salvation and eternal life must be from another Source altogether. That being the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, gifted freely through faith in Him alone - according to the Scriptures: Rom. 6:23.
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moondweller
Guest
Why not go to the theopneustos verse itself? Does it say “must???” Thereby implying an eternal consequence; which would be a reversal of a Divine creation. Why do you seek my opinion rather than the Word of God? Your answer is right there in the written Word of God.
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clmowry
Guest
Because it is your opinion on the Word of God I’m questioning.
So must one who “has been” saved walk in the works of love God has prepared for him or not?
I wouldn’t think it that difficult a question to answer.
Chuck
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moondweller
Guest
Does the verse say “must?” Implying a Divine reversal of creation of those who “have been saved” by grace through faith, now His workmanship “created in Christ Jesus for good works” that they should walk in them? Why seek another man’s opinion when the Word of God speaks clearly for itself? Do you see the word “must?”
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clmowry
Guest
Got it you don’t want to answer the question and I’m pretty sure I understand why so I’ll just stop asking.
Chuck
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Here’s the real question: Do we have free will to choose between good and evil, or is there a “master race” of “elect” who are predestined to have faith and go to heaven and a corresponding race of homo inferior who are born damned?
The latter “theology” is at the root of most of the wars in modern history.
Think about it. If only those who have “faith” are saved and faith is defined as not only faith in Christ’s resurrection, but also a particular intellectual assent to quote-unquote “true Christian” doctrine (which is what you are asserting, as you apparantly do not believe that Catholics are saved), then everyone who does not believe this doctrine goes to hell. The mentally retarded and infants and victims of abortion would go to hell because they are not capable of holding any doctrine. Even those who have a Bible and who believe in Christ’s resurrection will go to hell if they don’t have the correct doctrine. And of course, all of the non-Christians would go to hell as well under your theology.
Your theology is not Christianity because the real Christianity teaches:
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
The only way you’re getting out of this is by asserting the tradition of men that says God’s “will” is distinct from his “desire,” but once you’ve done that you have liquidated your “Bible alone” position.
Game over.
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moondweller
Guest
ALL are born damned, because: “ALL SINNED” (in Adam), according to the Scriptures. Salvation, according to the Scriptures is not based on one choosing “good” over “evil,” but believing (personally) in the Person and work of Jesus Christ on their behalf (Acts 16:30-31).
I have asserted nothing of the sort. I have only said what the Scriptures reveal concerning the cross of Christ and through it the power of God to save all who believe in Him.
I said nothing of the sort. I never mentioned any of these people in my posts. Please, refrain from putting words in my mouth.
Define “non-Christian.”
I have said nothing contrary to 1 Tim. 2:3-4. All whom God desires to be saved must come by faith alone through the one mediator, the Man Christ Jesus. He Himself said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” (Jn. 14:3). Not a church. Not through works. Not by choosing good over evil. But by faith alone in Christ alone who gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time (1 Tim. 2:6). Remember, Jesus said “I am the way…”
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