Faith alone or not?

[Cat_Herder]

ALL are born damned, because: “ALL SINNED” (in Adam), according to the Scriptures. Salvation, according to the Scriptures is not based on one choosing “good” over “evil,” but believing (personally) in the Person and work of Jesus Christ on their behalf (Acts 16:30-31).

Which is a choice, no?

I have only said what the Scriptures reveal concerning the cross of Christ and through it the power of God to save all who believe in Him.I said nothing of the sort. I never mentioned any of these people in my posts.

The problem is that you omit everything else the Scriptures require of the Christian.

Please, refrain from putting words in my mouth.

I am doing no such thing; you are making the accusation because you are unable to defend your position and its necessary implications. If salvation is by faith alone then the unborn, infants and the mentally retarded, and everyone else who is not capable of faith, cannot be saved. If they can indeed be saved it is no longer salvation by faith alone and by admitting that you liquidate your position.

Define “non-Christian.”

You define a non-Christian as anyone who does not believe in salvation by faith alone and you have specifically called out Catholics as not being saved and thus as non-Christians, here and elsewhere because we (allegedly) hold to salvation by works (which is false). In one of the above links you were thoroughly refuted when you claimed that the Scriptures did not command repentance of sins. The beat goes on…

I have said nothing contrary to 1 Tim. 2:3-4. All whom God desires to be saved must come by faith alone through the one mediator, the Man Christ Jesus. He Himself said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” (Jn. 14:3).

What you fail to understand is: JESUS IS GOD AND HE ALONE DECIDES HOW HE DISPENSES THE GIFT OF SALVATION. Not you. To wit:

Not a church.

[BIBLEDRB]Eph 5:22-23[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 21:9-10[/BIBLEDRB]

Not through works.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-24[/BIBLEDRB]

Not by choosing good over evil.

[BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 30:19[/BIBLEDRB]

But by faith alone …

That term does not appear anywhere in the Bible, except in James, where as you see it is immediately preceded by the words “NOT BY.”

Many verses which speak of salvation by faith. None speak of salvation by faith alone, and all of those verses are accompanied by an admonition to continue to do good works (the one in Romans, the book usually cited for faith alone, is in chapter 2, verses 2-8).

 

[Calvin_95]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

From the Biblical/Calvinistic view; justification is of grace alone by faith alone - Romans 1, 3,4, 5, 8, 10, 12, 1 Cor. 1, Phil 3.

James point is very simple; that true saving faith will result in fruits of righteousness, which God ordained verses the error that saving faith will not manifest itself through “good works” or fruits according to repentance. If understood in any other manner, then Scripture contradicts itself and cannot be trusted in my opinion.

**How Justification and Sanctification Differ
**
Justification is unique from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares the “true believer” righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinguishable from each other:

1. Justification imputes Christ’s righteousness to the sinner’s account so God sees Christ righteousness in the true believer (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
2. Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing before God (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer’s state, the way one lives before God (Romans 6:19).
3. Justification is an event, sanctification a lifelong process, which conforms us to the image of Christ. We will never achieve this in this body of sin, but that will be the continual direction of the Christian’s life.

I suspect many will disagree for many reasons, but this is what God has said in is holy and perfect word.

Hope this causes you to pause and consider what i have proclaimed in light of what Scripture teaches.

 

[Calvin_95]

ALL are born damned, because: “ALL SINNED” (in Adam), according to the Scriptures. Salvation, according to the Scriptures is not based on one choosing “good” over “evil,” but believing (personally) in the Person and work of Jesus Christ on their behalf (Acts 16:30-31).I have asserted nothing of the sort. I have only said what the Scriptures reveal concerning the cross of Christ and through it the power of God to save all who believe in Him.I said nothing of the sort. I never mentioned any of these people in my posts. Please, refrain from putting words in my mouth.Define "non-Christian."I have said nothing contrary to 1 Tim. 2:3-4. All whom God desires to be saved must come by faith alone through the one mediator, the Man Christ Jesus. He Himself said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” (Jn. 14:3). Not a church. Not through works. Not by choosing good over evil. But by faith alone in Christ alone who gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time (1 Tim. 2:6). Remember, Jesus said “I am the way…”

I have to agree that your words, in their context, are being put into another context; you are “right-on” according to Scripture.

Jesus said I am the door, the gate, the resurrection & the life, I am the Light of this world, the good Shepherd, the true manna from heaven, the bread of life, a great well-spring of everlasting life and many other things. He is truly the Master at using figurative language to make timeless and transcending spiritual points…praise Him for these treasures bestowed unpon sinful and wicked men.

 

[Cat_Herder]

From the Biblical/Calvinistic view; justification is of grace alone by faith alone - Romans 1, 3,4, 5, 8, 10, 12, 1 Cor. 1, Phil 3.

All of those verses say salvation is by faith, but none of those verses say salvation is by faith alone. Big difference. Romans 3 is as close as it gets, but as you can see from Romans 2, Paul asserts:

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:1-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Hence the “works of the law” in the next chapter means what it says… the Old Testament Law, which by itself is unable to save. Otherwise Paul would be contradicting himself. And don’t get me started about James.

**How Justification and Sanctification Differ
**
Justification is unique from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares the “true believer” righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16).

False.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice how justification and sanctification are distinguishable from each other:

1. Justification imputes Christ’s righteousness to the sinner’s account so God sees Christ righteousness in the true believer (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).

First of all, Paul already said that everyone will be judged according to works (Romans 2), so you’re on thin ice. But let’s look at those verses.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 4:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:1-7[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:11-14[/BIBLEDRB]

Your wager is that the “death” referred to in chapters 6 and 8 refers to temporal death; if it referred to eternal death, then those verses are necessarily part of justification. Well, flip to the end and what do we see…

[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 20:12-15[/BIBLEDRB]

Even those whose names were written in the Lamb’s Book of Life (the “justified” as you would have it) are judged according to their works. Well, so much for this distinction between justification and sanctification. They are the same process.

If understood in any other manner, then Scripture contradicts itself and cannot be trusted in my opinion.

You are the one who has made Scripture contradict itself. You try to get away with this by omitting Romans 2, Hebrews 10, and Revelation 20 among others. Sorry, but I wasn’t born again yesterday.

 

[paul_c]

Calvin 95, Moondweller, and yankee Drifter,
your recent posts all have one thing in common: you seem to believe that Jesus’s only purpose was to die on the cross for our salvation. That is not true. He also taught what is required for entering heaven. And while he certainly taught that Grace is required and he certainly taught that Faith was required, he ALSO taught that we need to live moral lives, avoid sin, love God and Love our neighbor as ourselves.

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were troubled that they were sinful men and that the Catholic Church taught that you needed to be in the state of Grace to enter heaven. Rather than work toward the required sanctification, they developed a NEW theology that said taht sancification was seperate from justification and that Justification was by Faith alone. Voila, Now it was no longer important to avoid sin as long as you beleived that Jesus would save you in his mercy.

The problem with his theology is that Just because you wish that sin doesn’t effect your salvation, doesn’t mean its true. Calvin took it another step further and denied that anything man did at all was irrelevant to salvation, because it was predestined anyway. This eliminated all personal responsibility for anything - a very nifty philosophy sure to be embraced by underacheivers. but again. Just wishing you aren’t responsible, doesn’t make it true.

You know its easy to take seleced words and phrases out of the bible and make them say anything you want. Luther and Calvin were quite adept at this. Luther went so far as actually altering the bible to support hi theology, taking out 7 books of the old testament and adding “Faith alone” to one of Paul’s epistles. But a simple check on theology is that it must comprehend all scripture and Calvinism and lutheranism sure fail in this regard

 

[moondweller]

Calvin 95, Moondweller, and yankee Drifter,
your recent posts all have one thing in common: you seem to believe that Jesus’s only purpose was to die on the cross for our salvation. That is not true. He also taught what is required for entering heaven.

This is quite a statement, Paul. You circumvent the cross as the Divine means for one “entering heaven.” This is, of course, quintessential Catholic, works oriented soteriology. Demonstrated by your statement:"And while he certainly taught that Grace is required and he certainly taught that Faith was required, he ALSO taught that we need to live moral lives, avoid sin, love God and Love our neighbor as ourselves."Rendering “faith” and “grace” meaningless. IOW, God saves those who meritoriously save themselves.

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were troubled that they were sinful men and that the Catholic Church taught that you needed to be in the state of Grace to enter heaven. Rather than work toward the required sanctification, they developed a NEW theology that said taht sancification was seperate from justification and that Justification was by Faith alone. Voila, Now it was no longer important to avoid sin as long as you beleived that Jesus would save you in his mercy.

Divine mercy is God holding back all that we deserve. Divine grace is freely giving us all that we don’t deserve.“Mercy” is God sending His Son into this world as the unblemished “Lamb of God” to take away the sin of the world. “Grace” is He saving all who would believe in Him: “For BY GRACE (not mercy) you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…”

It was based on what God had revealed in the Scriptures that these men saw justification and experiential sanctification as separate. The words have totally different meanings. Experiential sanctification is the process by which the faithful strive to live holy lives on this earth (to the glory of Christ) while still in these yet fallen, unredeemed bodies.Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”

Gal 5:25 "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."But this instruction to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh is for the SAVED whose sins are now ALL forgiven, who are now redeemed, who are now justified, who are now sanctified (eternally set apart) in the risen Christ, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. It’s not instruction on how to be (become) saved.

Justification, however, according to the Scriptures is having been reckoned (credited) by God a whole new standing before him (righteous) at the time of personal FAITH in Jesus Christ.Rom 3:27-30 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”

Rom 4:1-6 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (his belief in God’s Word) was credited to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"This is neither the imaginations of men nor the word of men, but the Word of God itself. And it’s faith in His Word by which He justifies the ungodly - according to the Scriptures. Faith has an object. That object is the Word of God; both the living (Christ) and the written Word (the Scriptures).

 

[clmowry]

Gal 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."

But this instruction to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh is for the SAVED whose sins are now ALL forgiven, who are now redeemed, who are now justified, who are now sanctified (eternally set apart) in the risen Christ, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. It’s not instruction on how to be (become) saved.

And IF one does NOT walk by the Spirit and not the flesh do they go to heaven when they die anyway?

Chuck

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
Calvin 95, Moondweller, and yankee Drifter,
your recent posts all have one thing in common: you seem to believe that Jesus’s only purpose was to die on the cross for our salvation. That is not true. He also taught what is required for entering heaven.

First of all, as you note, I said that GRACE, FAITH, and WORKS were all required. so how do you jump to the conclusion that his renders faith and grace meaningless. Why does it have to be either/or? How can you have been on the pages so long and not grasp this point?. Do you listen at all? Here’s the sequence:

• Jesus taught us how to live the Christian life
• Jesus died on the Cross as a sacrifice to open up heaven
• Jesus was resurrected to demonstrate his divinity and allow us to believe
• Jesus returned to the Father, leaving Peter and the church to spread his message and administer the sacraments by which grace is bestowed on those that believe
• Once a person has been baptized, their prior sins are forgiven and they enter into the state of grace. If they persevere in the love and good works God asks of them and they die in the state of grace, they will enter heaven. However, if they fall from grace through sin, they will be condemned to Hell.
• By God’s mercy, however, if a person who has fallen from grace desires to be reconciled with God, they can parake in the sacrament of reconciliation and regain their lost grace.

So you see, Jesus death on the cross was required, Grace is required, Faith is required and good works are required. You can’t get to heaven without all of them…

Quote:
Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were troubled that they were sinful men and that the Catholic Church taught that you needed to be in the state of Grace to enter heaven. Rather than work toward the required sanctification, they developed a NEW theology that said taht sancification was seperate from justification and that Justification was by Faith alone. Voila, Now it was no longer important to avoid sin as long as you beleived that Jesus would save you in his mercy.

Sure grace and Faith are required, as is God’s mercy, but that is not all that is requried as I showed you above. And remember, Man was made in the image and likeness of God. Sure we are arnished by original sin but that doesn’t mean we are all evil. That is just a warped Calvinistic view of man.

It was based on what God had revealed in the Scriptures that these men saw justification and experiential sanctification as separate. The words have totally different meanings. Experiential sanctification is the process by which the faithful strive to live holy lives on this earth (to the glory of Christ) while still in these yet fallen, unredeemed bodies.
Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”

Gal 5:25 “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

It is based on their flawed interpretation of scripture that they came to the conclusion that they didn’t need to be actually holy to enter heaven.

But this instruction to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh is for the SAVED whose sins are now ALL forgiven, who are now redeemed, who are now justified, who are now sanctified (eternally set apart) in the risen Christ, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. It’s not instruction on how to be (become) saved.

Sure, prior sins are forgiven. But once you have been cleansed with the spirit, you are called to sin no more and when you do, you break your convenant of grace with God.

 

[paul_c]

Justification, however, according to the Scriptures is having been reckoned (credited) by God a whole new standing before him (righteous) at the time of personal FAITH in Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:27-30 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”

Rom 4:1-6 “What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (his belief in God’s Word) was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”
This is neither the imaginations of men nor the word of men, but the Word of God itself. And it’s faith in His Word by which He justifies the ungodly - according to the Scriptures. Faith has an object. That object is the Word of God; both the living (Christ) and the written Word (the Scriptures).

No this is the faulty intepretations of those that would deny the efficacy of sin and personal responsibility and simply imagine that they were heaven bound simply by believing it to be so. And to believe it, you have to ignore or explain away over half the bible, including all the teachings on morality…

 

[moondweller]

And IF one does NOT walk by the Spirit and not the flesh do they go to heaven when they die anyway?

Chuck

Look at the text. Does it SAY anywhere there that they won’t?

You ask because you approach it from a strictly works mentality. You have no concept of “SAVED” (a past, completed action by God) or the power of God to do so “by grace,” “through faith,” based exclusively on the work of Another.

In Romans 4:5 does God justify (reckon righteous) the godly or the ungodly through faith?

Again, Chuck, why is it you appeal to me and avoid what is written (or not). However, did I not say in my post that that instruction was addressed to the SAVED? And that it was not instruction on how to be saved?

But again, a works mentality has no concept of what it means for one to “have been saved” (Eph. 2:8) Since from a works perspective God has no power to save anyone strictly through the cross of Christ and one’s faith in Him, but is rather in the process of saving those who are saving themselves via meritorious good works - according to the tradition of men.

According to the Scriptures the “saved” have there citizenship in heaven “from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:20-21).

Now you’ll ask, “Can they lose there citizenship in heaven?” And I’ll reply, “Does the text say they can?” You’ll ask because you have no concept of what it means to “have been saved.” A gracious work of God for the sake of Christ who bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24; Is. 53:4, 11; 1 Cor. 15:3).Heb 9:28 “…so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without {reference to} sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”

Heb 10:9-10 “…then He said, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb 10:12-14 “…but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time (not just sins prior to one’s baptism - an unbiblical concept), sat down at the right hand of God…For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” (i.e., set apart in the risen Christ).

 

[Cat_Herder]

Look at the text. Does it SAY anywhere there that they won’t?

[BIBLEDRB]Rom 11:22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Phil 2:12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 9:27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 10:11-12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Gal 5:4[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:11-13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 6:4-6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

You ask because you approach it from a strictly works mentality. You have no concept of “SAVED” (a past, completed action by God) or the power of God to do so “by grace,” “through faith,” based exclusively on the work of Another.

Faith is a work of another besides Christ, namely the individual Christian. Thus crumbleth thine cookie.

You keep confusing Grace and faith which are not the same thing. Grace alone saves. Works alone don’t save because works apart from Christ’s grace are worthless (Jn 15:5). But faith alone is also worthless, not a means of grace and so it does not save. (James 2).

 

[moondweller]

No this is the faulty intepretations of those that would deny the efficacy of sin and personal responsibility and simply imagine that they were heaven bound simply by believing it to be so. And to believe it, you have to ignore or explain away over half the bible, including all the teachings on morality…

To the contrary, what you do is explain away the efficacy of the cross of Christ, the means by which God has the power to save (forever), by grace, all who believe in Him.1 Cor 1:17-18 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

1 Cor 1:22-24 “For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Gal 5:11 “But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision (the principle of works for salvation), why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.”

Gal 6:14 “But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.”

Eph 2:13-16 “*But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off * (i.e., Gentiles) have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both (Jew and Gentile) one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,….”

Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."This is what Paul meant when he said that we preach Christ crucified. It’s the power of God to save men “by grace through faith” - according to the Scriptures.

 

[Cat_Herder]

To the contrary, what you do is explain away the efficacy of the cross of Christ,

You are the one explaining away the power of Christ to render judgment against men who deny Christ before men.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 10:33[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]John 14:15[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[moondweller]

You keep confusing Grace and faith which are not the same thing. Grace alone saves.

It’s God who saves “by grace…through faith.” “Grace” saves no one. “Grace” (unmerited favor) is the means by which God Himself saves those who believe the testimony concerning His Son:1 John 5:10-13 “The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.** These things I have written to you who believe** in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Works alone don’t save because works apart from Christ’s grace are worthless (Jn 15:5). But faith alone is also worthless, not a means of grace and so it does not save. (James 2).

James is written in the context of one who merely says he has faith. A mere “said” faith. You must understand him in context.

You confound Divine “grace,” the means by which God Himself saves (even justifies) the believer in Christ with your doctrine (tradition) of sacramental “graces.” These sacramentally dispensed “graces” (according to your tradition) are the means by which a Catholic is given the power to accomplish meritorious, good words for the sake of their (your) future salvation.

This is far different from the Biblical revelation which states concerning the believer: Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
No this is the faulty intepretations of those that would deny the efficacy of sin and personal responsibility and simply imagine that they were heaven bound simply by believing it to be so. And to believe it, you have to ignore or explain away over half the bible, including all the teachings on morality…

Not at all. How can you say that Cooperating with Grace and following Christ in any way diminished the Cross? Isn’t it actually doing what Jesus called us to do? Wasn’t Jesus’s sacrifice explicitly to allow us to get the grace that works within us to do good works? Adn if we fail to do good works, how can we say we are living in grace? Lets look at your quotes for the real interpretations…

1 Cor 1:17-18 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

This was part of a disussion about healing the factions in Corinth, where the Corinthians were describing themselves as disciples of various Apostles. He is simply saying that they should all be disciples of Christ and that it was not the work of the various Apostles that should be the source of their faith but Jesus’ sacrifice.

1 Cor 1:22-24 “For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

This is a continuation of the discussion above, saying that unbelieving Jews and Gentiles could not comprehend the meaning of the Crucifixion. Please note, that neither of these quote deny that we are called to holiness. They merely point out the importance of Christ’s sacrifice

Gal 5:11 “But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision (the principle of works for salvation), why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.”

He was saying in Galatians that the Old Covenant no longer applied. Baptism replaces Circumcision. It has nothing to do with works salvation.

Gal 6:14 “But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.”

This doesn’t mean that the only thing necessary was to recognize that Jesus was crucified. This is absolutely a case of taking a quote out of context because this is what preceeds it and makes exactly the opposite point you are trying to make:

7 Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows,
8 because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit.
9 Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do notgive up.
10 So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of the faith

Eph 2:13-16 “*But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off * (i.e., Gentiles) have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both (Jew and Gentile) one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,…”

He’s saying that the Gentiles and Jews are united by Christ as members of one church…

Col 2:13-14 “When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”

Notice that he is talking about Baptism this is line 12, which preceeds your quote:
12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

This is what Paul meant when he said that we preach Christ crucified. It’s the power of God to save men “by grace through faith” - according to the Scriptures.

Sure, God has the power to save men. The Cross is the beginning of our salvation but more is required of us than simple acknowledgement of Christ’s sacrifice and vainly claiming that Jesus will save you because you believe he will. Why can’t you see that?

 

[clmowry]

Well sense you ask, I “appeal to” YOU because YOU put forth twisted interpretations from scripture and then when I ask very simple questions that would clarify YOUR position YOU won’t answer them.

Scripture clearly teaches that one must be in a state of grace at the point of death in order to enter heaven.

It is by the Grace of God and only through the Grace of God that we are saved.

The Grace of God manifests itself in a variety of different ways and we have the opportunity to accept or reject those graces.

It is clear from scripture that perseverance in Faith and Good Works are necessary in the acceptance of God’s of Grace.

Works without Faith merit us nothing. Faith without works is dead.

YOU simply refuse to acknowledge this simple fact because you can’t maintain that Faith Alone gets one to heaven and do so.

I have no argument with scripture. The argument is with YOUR INTERPRETATION of scripture.

So I am asking clarifying question of YOU.

Chuck

Again, Chuck, why is it you appeal to me

 

[Cat_Herder]

“Grace” saves no one.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts of the Apostles 15:11[/BIBLEDRB]

You confound Divine “grace,” the means by which God Himself saves (even justifies) the believer in Christ with your doctrine (tradition) of sacramental “graces.” These sacramentally dispensed “graces” (according to your tradition) are the means by which a Catholic is given the power to accomplish meritorious, good words for the sake of their (your) future salvation

.

[BIBLEDRB]John 1:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 3:24[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[paul_c]

It’s God who saves “by grace…through faith.” “Grace” saves no one. “Grace” (unmerited favor) is the means by which God Himself saves those who believe the testimony concerning His Son:1 John 5:10-13 "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.** These things I have written to you who believe** in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."James is written in the context of one who merely says he has faith. A mere “said” faith. You must understand him in context.

You confound Divine “grace,” the means by which God Himself saves (even justifies) the believer in Christ with your doctrine (tradition) of sacramental “graces.” These sacramentally dispensed “graces” (according to your tradition) are the means by which a Catholic is given the power to accomplish meritorious, good words for the sake of their (your) future salvation.

This is far different from the Biblical revelation which states concerning the believer: Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

There is no difference between Divine Grace and sacramental grace. And this quote from you"These sacramentally dispensed “graces” (according to your tradition) are the means by which a Catholic is given the power to accomplish meritorious, good words for the sake of their (your) future salvation." is completely consistent with the full thought of ephesians2:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Doesn’t your conscience bother you when you show Epesians 2: 8-9 withou 10…

 

[yankee_drifter]

Doesn’t your conscience bother you when you show Epesians 2: 8-9 withou 10…

The apostle Paul is not talking out of both corners of his mouth. He clearly said in Eph. 2:8,9 that we are saved by grace, and not of works. Yes, verse. 10 says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, but we do those works because we are already in Christ Jesus. We have already been declared righteous. We are already saved and have our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life. These good works do not apply to the unsaved. Those who do not know Christ as their personal Savior. Those who are not born again.

Those who believe we are still under the law are cursed according to Paul. Works based religion is a religion that does not believe Christ atoned for all sin. They believe they must help Christ. That His sin ransom was not complete. The bottom line is that they do not trust Christ alone for their eternal salvation. They are trusting in their church and church rituals and other “works.” This is what separates the catholic from the Bible believing Christian.

 

[clmowry]

Why do folks always want to blame Paul for THEIR interpretation of scripture?

Galations 5:6 “6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”

Hmmm…doesn’t look anything like “faith alone” to me.

Neither does:

1 Corinthians 13:2 “2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.”

Paul seems to think what we do matters:

---

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 *“*9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Ephesians 5:5-6 “5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy** person**, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.”

Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I don’t see anything even close to “If you believe in Christ what you do doesn’t matter” in Paul’s writings.

Chuck

The apostle Paul is not talking out of both corners of his mouth. He clearly said in Eph. 2:8,9 that we are saved by grace, and not of works. Yes, verse. 10 says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, but we do those works because we are already in Christ Jesus. We have already been declared righteous. We are already saved and have our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life. These good works do not apply to the unsaved. Those who do not know Christ as their personal Savior. Those who are not born again.

Those who believe we are still under the law are cursed according to Paul. Works based religion is a religion that does not believe Christ atoned for all sin. They believe they must help Christ. That His sin ransom was not complete. The bottom line is that they do not trust Christ alone for their eternal salvation. They are trusting in their church and church rituals and other “works.” This is what separates the catholic from the Bible believing Christian.