Faith alone or not?

[Calvin_95]

your premise here is based on a false assumption. The Catholic priesthood is not a continuation of the Levitical priesthood. Would you agree that Jesus set 12 men apart from all others. called them Apostles and invested them with specific power and authority? In fact, he gave one of them, Peter, the authority to run his church. (Matthew 16) and told him after the resurrection, to tend his flock (John 21). These responsibilities included administering the sacraments, healing the sick. forgiving sins, and bringing the Gospel message to all people. (Matthew 28: 18-20, John 20). Now, these men could not possibly carry out these duties by themselves for all peoples and for all time and so they appointed trusted men to extend thier reach, ordaining them and investing them with the power invested in the Apostles by Christ by the laying on of hands . Paul talks about this in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus. They were called bishops and presbyters in the early church, Presbyters has been Anglicized to priests. Have you not read these passages…

I never said it was a levitical priesthood, but it resembles it in many ways 1) both die a physical death 2) both make a sacrafice atone for the sins of themselves and also for the others (correct me on this if I am mistaken and show me the correct way to view it from the Catholic perspective 3) both have a victim; the OT was an animal in Catholicism it is the Son of God - The Catholic preisthood claims to be of the order of Melchezidek; I have a problem with that for I believe that Melchezidek is the pre-incarnate Christ for varios reasons.

If Peter received the power to run the church, then the church quit running about 1950 years ago; but since Christ said explicitly “I wil build my church”, then the church is continuing to be built, which of course it is. Apostolic succession cannot be found in Scripture and Scripture states to stay away from this type of activity, looking at geaneologies because it distracts from the adminstration of the things of God.

 

[guanophore]

Very true, no one is born saved. We are lost sinners. Our most righteous acts are filthy rags to God. You must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

What works do you believe God requires of you? Where in the bible is the list of requirements?

Salvation is not a “list of requirements”, but a relationship. When we are baptized into Christ, we become adopted sons and daughters of God.

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered him, "Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

We keep His Word out of love for the One who first loved us, and gave Himself up for us.

John 14:15-16
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matt 28:17-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and** teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. **

Catholics accept that we are to obey all of His commandments.

Where do we see penance?

First tell me what you think penance is, then we can go from there. Given your gross misunderstanding of most Catholic concepts, it is likely that you were misinformed about this also, and it will not help to start with a semantics problem.

Man as Mediator?

I am not sure what you mean by this. The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one Mediator between God and man, the Man Jesus Christ.

Resurrecting the priesthood?

I am not sure what you mean by this either. The Catholic priesthood has its origin in Christ. He was resurrected, yes, and those who are in Him share in His priesthood.

1 Peter 2:9

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

  Etc Etc. These are works of men.

You seem to be very confused, or at best, misinformed. Where did you learn all these strange ideas about the Catholic faith?

 God never asked  any of it. He asks only that we accept His Son. Believe on His Son, Confess with our mouths that the Son Is Lord, admit we are sinners and take up our cross and follow Him.

Catholics agree that we are to accept His Son, believe on him, confess out sins, and take up our cross. This is the Catholic faith.

Not rules, rites, rituals, a list of do's and don'ts.

Yankee, human beings were created with great freedom, but there are limits to our freedom. When Christ sets us free, it is so that we may no longer be slaves to sin, and are able to obey His commandments. He has placed boundaries around us to protect us from evil, from ourselves, and from one another. If you think that God has something against rules, I suggest that you read the book of Leviticus again.

What is a “rite”?

What is a “ritual”?

That’s what the priests and pharisees failed to understand. The Pharisees loved the law. They burdened the people with their list of do’s and don’ts. And every time Jesus corrected them.

No, Yankee. There is nothing wrong with loving the Law. There is nothing wrong with rules, either. When one can keep the Law of Love by grace, through faith, one is never more free. Those who kept the Law in the OT did so in this way, by grace, through faith.

Jesus criticized the Pharisees because of their lack of faith. I would like to show me some support for your assertion that they “loved the Law”. I don’t think this is true. If they had really loved it, then it would have set them free. It could not, because they did not follow it with faith.

Nowhere do we read in Scriptures that faith is a WORK.

Jesus said it is a work. It is THE work of God that we must do in order to be saved. These things you say that God requires:

“He asks only that we accept His Son. Believe on His Son, Confess with our mouths that the Son Is Lord, admit we are sinners and take up our cross and follow Him”

are “works”. We accept, We believe, We confess, We admit, We take up the cross, We follow. We respond to His grace by choice, we make a decision and act on the basis of it. This is the Work of God that we MUST do to be saved.

The apostle Paul said if its by works, then it is no more of grace.

Right, but you are confused. All these works that both you and the CC agree MUST be done for us to be saved are ergos hagios (holy works). They are the works that God has prepared before hand that we should walk in them. They are not “based” in the flesh, but in grace. The grace that saves us produces them.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I never said it was a levitical priesthood, but it resembles it in many ways 1) both die a physical death 2) both make a sacrafice atone for the sins of themselves and also for the others (correct me on this if I am mistaken and show me the correct way to view it from the Catholic perspective 3) both have a victim; the OT was an animal in Catholicism it is the Son of God - The Catholic preisthood claims to be of the order of Melchezidek; I have a problem with that for I believe that Melchezidek is the pre-incarnate Christ for varios reasons.

Whether or not Melchizedek and Christ are the same person is completely irrelevant to whether or not the High Priest gave priestly authority to His Apostles.

If Peter received the power to run the church, then the church quit running about 1950 years ago; but since Christ said explicitly “I wil build my church”, then the church is continuing to be built, which of course it is. Apostolic succession cannot be found in Scripture and Scripture states to stay away from this type of activity, looking at geaneologies because it distracts from the adminstration of the things of God.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 1:20-22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 4:14[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 5:22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:20-25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

If you want the truth you need to stop setting the Word of God against itself.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Peter 3:14-18[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[guanophore]

Yankee, I just told you what we believe and you counter by saying that’s not what we beleive. Frankly, how would you know what Catholics believe? And How can we ever have a productive discussion if you are arguing against self defined strawmen?’

I don’t think he and MD are here to have any productive discussion. They just seem to have too strong a need cling to their misperceptions. For some reason this is an essential element for them to hold the faith to which they cling. It requires calumny and malignment of their imaginary “catholicism”.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I don’t think he and MD are here to have any productive discussion. They just seem to have too strong a need cling to their misperceptions. For some reason this is an essential element for them to hold the faith to which they cling. It requires calumny and malignment of their imaginary “catholicism”.

Indeed. But nonetheless, we shall continue to destroy their arguments for the sake of the lurkers and many others who will read these threads in the future.

 

[moondweller]

Why is this true? Provide proof.

You ask this because in Catholicism there’s no concept of “saved, which includes the forgiveness of all sins.”

Why do you say this. Do you think Jesus sacrifice removes all sin? Or only that of believers? Or only that of believers that specifically ask or it through the sacraments? Where do you draw the line and on what basis?

The line is drawn with the Scriptures. Always the Scriptures.

He bore the sins of the whole human race in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). And He died TO them, once for all (Jn. 1:29; Rom.6:10).Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."His sacrificial work is Divinely applied, in full, at the time of personal faith in Him. Jesus said:John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."Note the requirement: “believe” (faith alone or not?).

Again, what is the criteria or sin to be forgiven.

Again, “believe.”

Is everyone’s sins forgiven? Or only that of believers?

Only believers. See the word “believe” in believers?

Or only that of believers who ask for forgiveness sacramentally?

Men are forgiven ALL sins by believing, not by asking. Nor by confessing, but by believing - according to the Scriptures.

On what basis do you make your statement?

The Scriptures, always the Scriptures.

1 Jn. 1:9 is written in the context of confronting the Gnosticism of John’s day. Those Gnostics did not acknowledge sin. The Greek word omologômen in 1 Jn. 1:9 means to acknowledge. And it is better translated “acknowledge.” Notice the context: In vs. 8 it is those who say they have no sin. In vs. 10 it’s those who say they have not sinned. Neither of these are Christians (true believers) since no one can become a Christian by denying that he has sin, or that he has ever sinned. The true believer has readily acknowledged his sin and sinful estate, and has therefore sought Christ by faith for forgiveness, even justification. In fact, that was the purpose of the Law: “for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20; cf. 7:7). And based on that knowledge it’s purpose was to lead those under it to Christ that they may be justified (credited righteousness) by faith" (Gal. 3:24). You see, it’s ALWAYS “by faith.” “But now that FAITH has come we are no longer under a tutor” (Gal. 3:25). Paul writes: “For you are all sons of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:26). It’s always through FAITH, and FAITH alone - according to the Scriptures.

Again, do you believe there is a group of people that Jesus died for? All men?

Again, He died for ALL men (unlimited atonement/redemption).

all men that believe?

All men that believe have forgiveness of sins. Because He is faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from ALL unrighteousness.

Men can stand forever pardoned before God: not because God is “gracious” enough to excuse their sins; but because there is plentiful redemption through the blood that was shed on the cross. And because of the cross God is free to forgive perfectly.

Divine forgiveness cancels every debt before God, hence, the Scriptures say, “there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). But Divine justification declares the sinner (the ungodly) to be forever judicially righteous in His eyes. One is subtraction, the other is addition; and both are righteously made possible through the cross.

All men that are members of the Church sacramentally?

All men who are a part of the church Christ Himself is building have forgiveness of sins (past, present & future).Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,"

Col 1:14 "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The Scriptures are clear on this Divine pardon for all who BELIEVE in Him. The moment I believed in Christ I knew without a doubt my sins were forgiven -.ALL of them. That’s the difference between a religious faith and a personal faith. God saves men “by grace” through the latter. A religious faith continues to seek forgiveness. Prior to a personal faith in Christ I had a religious faith. I always sought forgiveness.

 

[Calvin_95]

Yes, there is a priesthood of all believers, just as all Israel was a priesthood.
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 19:6[/BIBLEDRB]

The OT references on priests have nothing whatsoever to do with the royal priesthood of true believers found in the NT, but refer to the Levitical priesthood established by God for the nation of Israel. Also, w/out the conditional in verse 5, which Israel failed in almost every regard, they were not a nation of priests as they should have been.

So does the Church; they are called elders, **presbyters or priests **(same Greek root word, presbuteros).

Presbyters are not synonomous with priest; check you Greek and that is a deception to state it as such.

You think that because Jesus has died for you it is no longer possible for you to sin. That just isn’t so. The Bible says that deadly, or mortal, sin does exist after Calvary.

Where would get that notion since 1John states: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us”. **Please show where God differentiates sins into categories. ** Concerning true Christians, doesn’t God say their sins are far removed and buried in the deepest parts of the ocean & that He remembers them no more? Yes.

If you sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, the Bible calls that a deadly, or mortal, sin. Not just the Church. The Bible. And the consequence?

No it does not in the context you put it; all sins result in what? Death. how many lies would you need to say in order to receive the sentance of eternal condemnation? One.

By committing a mortal sin, you have removed yourself from the One Sacrifice of Calvary. You are in need of someone to present that One Sacrifice again on your behalf.

No it does not; I’m stopping here in aswering or commenting further because you are saying things that are just not true or found in Scripture & just wasting time and energy. No offense, but in order to engage in a conversation there are certain basics one must be able to see clearly in order to dialogue. Once sacrafice is all; just one according to God.

 

[Cat_Herder]

He bore the sins of the whole human race in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). And He died TO them, once for all (Jn. 1:29; Rom.6:10).

Again, you are confusing One Sacrifice of Calvary with individual appropriation of that Sacrifice. If Calvary was “once for all” in the sense of making any action by the sinner redundant then everyone would be born saved. But that’s not what you believe. You believe in salvation by faith alone. To be saved, you say, the sinner must DO something: have faith.

If the sinner does not have faith, you say, he cannot be saved. Calvary is “once for all”—except for that sinner. for that sinner. Christ died for all men–but not that sinner.

See the problem?

 

[Cat_Herder]

The OT references on priests have nothing whatsoever to do with the royal priesthood of true believers found in the NT, but refer to the Levitical priesthood established by God for the nation of Israel. Also, w/out the conditional in verse 5, which Israel failed in almost every regard, they were not a nation of priests as they should have been.

This is a tradition of men. By the way, Israel and the Church are different names for the same thing: the People and Spouse of God. God is not a bigamist.

Presbyters are not synonomous with priest; check you Greek and that is a deception to state it as such.

Read any dictionary and this is what it will say:
New Oxford American Dictionary:

priest |prēst|
noun
1 an ordained minister of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Church having the authority to perform certain rites and administer certain sacraments.
…
ORIGIN Old English prēost, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch priester, German Priester, based on ecclesiastical Latin presbyter ‘elder’ (see presbyter )

Where would get that notion since 1John states: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us”. **Please show where God differentiates sins into categories. **

Look a little bit further down.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

Concerning true Christians, doesn’t God say their sins are far removed and buried in the deepest parts of the ocean & that He remembers them no more? Yes.

[BIBLEDRB]John 8:11[/BIBLEDRB]

I’m stopping here in aswering or commenting further because you are saying things that are just not true or found in Scripture 7 just wasting my time and energy. No offense, but i order to engage in a conversation there are certain basics one must be able to see clearly in order to dialogue.

My previous posts have been loaded to the brim with Scripture so I do not know what you are talking about.

God bless you.

 

[guanophore]

And you’re taught that those meritorious “righteous acts” contribute to your future salvation.

No, Moon, that is not what the CC teaches. We are taught that they contribute to our PRESENT salvation. They are the works through which our faith is made perfect.

Walking in the good works that God has prepared beforehand keeps our minds and hearts in Christ. They preserve the faith in us through which we are saved by grace. The sin nature and the evil one are constantly trying to drag us away from our birthright. The good deeds God works in us strive against the tide of evil.

But contrast that teaching with…"even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous

There is no “contrast”, MD, between the Teaching of the Church and the Holy Scriptures that were produced by that Teaching. The only reason we can do good deeds is because we have already been made righteous by the blood of Christ. I think you agree with this Catholic Teaching, but you can’t admit that it is Catholic.

."[/indent]And the testimony of the Apostle Paul:Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”

This is a Catholic statement, made to Catholics, about Catholic teaching. The good works that He creates through us are not the “basis” of our salvation. We are saved by Grace. Grace is the basis. Faith is the means by which we access that grace, and the good deeds are the product of that grace.

For some reason you need to believe that Catholics beleive otherwise - that works are the basis for salvation. However, you will not find this concept in any Catholic teaching, because it is not the case.

moondweller:

So, my friend, according to the Scriptures, God’s written Word (and God cannot lie), there is no salvation or justification based on any man’s so-called many “acts of righteousness,” but only the ONE act of righteousness: That of the Man Christ Jesus.

I will concede that there are some poorly formed Catholics, as well as non-catholics, that may believe that our salvation is “based” on works. However, the fact that there are some misled persons does not change the facts. The fact is that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

AMENNot FOR salvation or justification - according to the Scriptures:Rom 4:5-6 "*But to the one who does not work, **but believes*** **in Him** who justifies the ungodly, **his faith** (not his works - ANY works) ***is credited as righteousness***, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God **credits** **righteousness apart from works**."AMEN

The reason that good works are beneficial to our salvation and justify us toward God is because they are done in grace, through faith.

Are we to believe God or men? Salvation depends on it.

Are you proselytizing?

 

[Cat_Herder]

The OT references on priests have nothing whatsoever to do with the royal priesthood of true believers found in the NT, but refer to the Levitical priesthood established by God for the nation of Israel. Also, w/out the conditional in verse 5, which Israel failed in almost every regard, they were not a nation of priests as they should have been.

This is a tradition of men. By the way, Israel and the Church are different names for the same thing: the People and Spouse of God. God is not a bigamist.

Presbyters are not synonomous with priest; check you Greek and that is a deception to state it as such.

Read any dictionary and this is what it will say:
New Oxford American Dictionary:

priest |prēst|
noun
1 an ordained minister of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Church having the authority to perform certain rites and administer certain sacraments.
…
ORIGIN Old English prēost, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch priester, German Priester, based on ecclesiastical Latin presbyter ‘elder’ (see presbyter )

Where would get that notion since 1John states: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us”. **Please show where God differentiates sins into categories. **

Look a little bit further down.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

No it does not in the context you put it; all sins result in what? Death. how many lies would you need to say in order to receive the sentance of eternal condemnation? One.

Eventually.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:23[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]James 1:15[/BIBLEDRB]

Concerning true Christians, doesn’t God say their sins are far removed and buried in the deepest parts of the ocean & that He remembers them no more? Yes.

[BIBLEDRB]John 8:11[/BIBLEDRB]

I’m stopping here in aswering or commenting further because you are saying things that are just not true or found in Scripture 7 just wasting my time and energy. No offense, but i order to engage in a conversation there are certain basics one must be able to see clearly in order to dialogue.

My previous posts, like this one, have been loaded to the brim with Scripture so I do not know what you are talking about.

God bless you.

 

[Calvin_95]

No, it does not, and I will tell you why. Walking in obedience to the commandments is expected of us as Christians. We keep the commandments in the same way we were saved,by grace, through faith. Our ability to do the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, is a work of grace (grace is the basis).

So, your answer is irrelevant, since commandment keeping for the Christian is based on grace.

I think what you and MD are trying to dodge here is open admission to the heresy that one can fall into sin, reject the grace of God, and still go to heaven. For us, falling from grace means that a person is no longer “in Christ” and therefore, lacks the state of grace necessary for salvation. Your theology allows a “saved” person to walk in abject wickedness, and still go to heaven. That is the fatal flaw.

MD, and other reformed Christians, will say that God “disciplines” such Christians, but does not deny them heaven.

On the other hand, the Apostles taught that we cannot see God without holiness, and that we must strive for this holiness.

Heb 12:14-17

Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. 16 See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears.

Sorry, but you are incorrect of your assessment on both of us. If anyone were able to keep the commandments ( I am assuming you are speaking primarily on the two commandments which Jesus stated summed up the law and the prophets), which is equivilent to saying by God’s grace we no longer sin is a violation of Scripture as shown in 1John; if we say we do not sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

And if one can lose their slvation, which is what you seem to be saying, then that god is weak and what He said is not true for He said that He who BEGAN a good work will complete until te day of Christ {paraphrased}; therefore your statement contradicts the clear teaching of the Scripture.

 

[moondweller]

Again, you are confusing One Sacrifice of Calvary with individual appropriation of that Sacrifice. If Calvary was “once for all” in the sense of making any action by the sinner redundant then everyone would be born saved.

“Once for all” time.

But that’s not what you believe. You believe in salvation by faith alone. To be saved, you say, the sinner must DO something: have faith.

Yes, believe God’s testimony concerning His Son (1Jn. 5:9-13; Acts 16:30-31). It’s not my message, it’s God’s.

If the sinner does not have faith, you say, he cannot be saved.

He must believe in the testimony God has given concerning His Son. It’s not my message, it’s God’s.

Calvary is “once for all”—** “ONCE” for all time. An historical event which occurred ONCE. It neither repeats nor continues. He died (to sin), once for all time, and resurrected three days later, and now resides at the right hand of the Majesty on High in a glorified (never to die again) human body. The “first fruits” of all who are His and will follow. And since it (His body) is fully human it can be in only one place at a time. Which just happens to be in heaven.

 

[Calvin_95]

Well, speak for yourself, Calvin. Maybe YOU have to establish a preisthood from scripture, but none of the Catholic Teaching is dependent upon Scripture. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, and was whole before a word of the NT was ever written. The doctrines she holds come from Him. The doctrines of the faith are REFLECTED in the Scriptures because the Church wrote what she believed. The One Faith of the Apostles is to be RECEIVED from those to whom it was committed,not extracted individually from the pages of a book 2000 years after the fact.

However, we do see the priesthood clearly in the scriptures. The NT reveals that the OT concealed, a priesthood of three levels, with the priesthood of all believers, a ministerial priesthood, and a High Priest. The New Covenant does not “take away” from the old, but fulfills the old. If you deny this priesthood, then you deny Christ as our Great High Priest, and the priesthood of all believers.

Such a statement reflects that you have a deficient understanding of the Passover as anamnesis.

What royal “we” is speaking here? ARe you representing all that read the scriptures with anti-Catholic glasses? It is very hard to see something when you have already made up your mind it does not exist.

There is only one NT priesthood - the priesthood of Christ. All of us are called to participate in it. By virtue of His eternal priesthood, ours is also eternal. Since He is “alive forevermore”, then there is no death to prevent the functioning of the priesthood.

Indeed.

And all of us who are “in Christ” are contained in His permanent priesthood. We are a priestly people.

Perhaps you are laboring under the common misperception that Catholic priests offer new sacrifices for sins daily?

Perhaps you are trying to make the point that Jesus is not present in the tabernacles of the CC?

Calvin, you have been given some sort of misinformation about the CC. I hope that you are open minded enough to get this corrected while you are here, or are you, as has been suggested, only going to continue to tell us what you think we believe?

Is the tabernacle made by man or God - enough said. Please explain in true and proper context of any error or statement i made that contradicts what the Scripture teaches; not what the Catholic church teaches.

 

[Calvin_95]

You may not realize this, but this passage, like the rest of the NT, was written by a Catholic, for Catholics, about the Catholic faith. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

You are too funny. This comment is plain ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[Calvin_95]

Non-Catholics PLEASE READ

You see, our dear non-Catholic brothers and sisters… We are not at all trying to make utter acts of hubris in saying we are right, contrary to yours in insisting that we are wrong because of your understanding of our doctrine. We have given you many verses from Scriptures (which I certainly have no ability to do but I am glad they do) that lead us to believe beyond a reasonable doubt what we believe and why. We also have given faith-illumined non-biblical reasons for believing what we believe beyond a reasonable doubt.

You cannot understand Catholic doctrine from a bias that we are wrong. Giving information that you are ex-Catholic is even worse for understanding Catholic doctrine and belief. The only way you can understand it is to erase all presuppositions and experience it. For example, the prayers (not meaning worship as most may think) to Mary, Queen of Heaven, the angels, saints and martys can give one numerous graces to the soul but a superficial idea of it would lead one to assume that we do not worship God alone (a recurrent idea in Calvin’s posts).

In arguments against us, we have the upper hand and that is not only because we have the Truth; it is because we argue from the point that we are right and you argue from a point that we are wrong. It is easier to defend what one knows than to attack what one does not know. Is this highly prideful? Probably, but I will not back down from defending the Church that Christ, God in the flesh, founded.

Christ is the Word of God that was spoken at the Creation of our universe. Christ is also the Word of God made flesh to destroy sin and death at His Death, give us a new life by “putting on Christ” in the Resurrection and instilling in us a newfound hope of being with Our Lord in the Ascension. It is also said, “Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” With all of this, this is a reason why we hold Sacred Tradition as oral (Christ spoke and is the Word spoken at Creation) and written (Christ is the Scriptures and written in the Scriptures). Also, these (I am sure there are plenty more than I stated) are reasons why the Bible is only part of the Ultimate Picture (Christ), my friends.

You may want to ask yourself what a Christian is. Jesus is the Truth. Nothing He said was untruth, written and non-written. This is another reason why we believe (transcending knowledge) we have the Truth; that is, because we take Christ as much much more than some mysterious Man in a book, or rather a compilation of books, compiled by the Church several centuries later. This is our theology (with a little philosophy) of Him. This is why I keep saying you trivialize, because you fail to see the Man beyond the Bible. Is this trivializing the Bible? Certainly not. I am saying that the Bible is a gift from God, but not the ONLY gift from God as a source of Truth. That Source is God Himself through His Apostles.
Truth is much more than you take it to be and much more than we can ever know.

Do not inherently tell us that you know more about our belief and doctrine than we do. Do not give the false sense of charity of praying for all religions when you are ready to attack without premise. Do not tell us that we cannot prove what you think we cannot prove.

In addition to all the Bible verses and reasons my Catholic brothers have given, I offer here what my tiny brain can offer which is eclipsed by what they said.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of St. John, the Gospel writer) says, “Wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.” Wherever Truth (Life, Love, Mercy, etc…) is, there is the Catholic Church. Somebody has to proclaim the Truth and that Truth is Christ. There is plenty of evidence to give one certitude that that somebody is the Catholic Church.

You all sure make a lot of false claims about what I have said, Perhaps you just bunch everyone together that is not a professing Catholic; I don’t know, but it getting old already and does nothing for any dialogue.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Sorry, but you are incorrect of your assessment on both of us. If anyone were able to keep the commandments ( I am assuming you are speaking primarily on the two commandments which Jesus stated summed up the law and the prophets), which is equivilent to saying by God’s grace we no longer sin is a violation of Scripture as shown in 1John; if we say we do not sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

You are omitting original sin, which we are all conceived in today:

[BIBLEDRB]Ps 50:5[/BIBLEDRB]

And if one can lose their slvation, which is what you seem to be saying, then that god is weak and what He said is not true for He said that He who BEGAN a good work will complete until te day of Christ {paraphrased}; therefore your statement contradicts the clear teaching of the Scripture.

You are omitting human free will (like all Calvinists do), the ability to choose between life and death:

[BIBLEDRB]Dt 30:19[/BIBLEDRB]

You are also ignoring a ton of Scripture.

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]James 5:14-16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 10:11-12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Gal 5:4[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:11-13[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Cat_Herder]

“Once for all” time.Yes, believe God’s testimony concerning His Son (1Jn. 5:9-13; Acts 16:30-31). It’s not my message, it’s God’s.He must believe in the testimony God has given concerning His Son. It’s not my message, it’s God’s. “ONCE” for all time. An historical event which occurred ONCE. It neither repeats nor continues. He died (to sin), once for all time, and resurrected three days later, and now resides at the right hand of the Majesty on High in a glorified (never to die again) human body. The “first fruits” of all who are His and will follow.

Amen.

CCC 1104
Christian liturgy not only recalls the events that saved us but actualizes them, makes them present. The Paschal mystery of Christ is celebrated, not repeated. It is the celebrations that are repeated, and in each celebration there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that makes the unique mystery present.

So why exactly are we fighting over? Just the means by which the Sacrifice is appropriated to the individual sinner. You say it’s faith alone, the Bible says:

[BIBLEDRB]Gal 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]

And since it (His body) is fully human it can be in only one place at a time. Which just happens to be in heaven.

Whoa there pardner!

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 28:20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:20[/BIBLEDRB]

And let’s not forget…

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor. 11:23-30[/BIBLEDRB]

How can you be guilty of the body of the Lord if the body of the Lord isn’t there?..

 

[moondweller]

No, Moon, that is not what the CC teaches. We are taught that they contribute to our PRESENT salvation. They are the works through which our faith is made perfect.

Council of Trent Sixth Session, Chapter XVI, on the fruits of justification:

"…to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be
offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ
Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to
their good works and merits – nothing further is wanting to those justified
to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have
been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of
this life and to have truly merited eternal life."Granophore, you conveniently mix Catholicism and Protestantism - being true to neither one.

 

[Calvin_95]

Do you deny that Jesus set up certain men to preach to the world in his place? Do you not recognize that he named twelve Apostles? And that he sent these men out to do the works that he was doing, even before he had been sacrificed on the cross?

And do you not recognize that he added St. Paul to their number when he appeared to him on the road to Damascus? And that in Acts, Barnabas is also called an apostle?

And do you not recognize the great commission in Matthew 28: 18-20:

18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Now if you recognize the role of Apostles as Jesus’ representatives, which is undeniable if you read the New Testament, then you have witnessed the establishment of the Catholic priesthood.

As for the extension of that to more men, you only have to look at the letters from St. Paul to Titius and Timothy to see that this is scriptural…

The Creator used the creature as a tool to spread the gospel of God or the gospel of salvation and still does the same thing today. The Apostles were given power to heal and cast out demons and other signs and wondrs to validate that the authority was from heaven. Succession is another story all together; their is not one example of this being mentioned and Scripture warns about paying attention to geaneologies. Just as Catholics claim that the power to forgive sins was given to the apostles in spite of the fact that God alone is able to forgive sins, which is why you can’t find a verse where any apostle said you sins are forgiven by my power. The reason you won’t find that is because it is a fallact of interpretation of certain passages. Forgiveness comes from accepting the gospel by faith in Christ as a propitiation or substitute on behalf of the true believer.