Faith alone or not?

[Calvin_95]

This has already been asked and answered.

That was already clearly refuted by God’s word.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus said: "John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."It states nothing about water baptism. It says: “…even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” The ONE is Jesus Christ and the obedience is His death on the cross where our sins (all of them) were imputed to Him and He died TO them, once for all. And in exchange the “righteousness of God” is imputed to the one who believed (2 Cor. 5:21) ** It stated nothing about grace **nor water baptism.

This is why it creates problems when someone tries to create doctrine by extracting it from various verses. This is not the way the Apostolic faith is communicated. Instead, it is passed down, and received (not extracted). This is how Jesus set up the paradosis.

In fact, this is exactly what the Apostles believed and taught occurred in baptism. That is why they called it the “bath of regeneration” and “circumcision without hands”. ** Do you honestly believe that any of these things can happen without grace?**

Sometimes it seems like you are trying so hard to misrepresent the Catholic faith that you say something really ridiculous!

Can you show me where the phrase “state of grace” is in the Scriptures? Where Christ or any of the Apostles used that phrase?

It is a description of how we are when we are “in Christ”. I am sure if you do a search, you will find the term “in Christ” all over your NT.

 Actually, that's a phrase taken from your own tradition where it is connected to the teaching that at the time of water baptism "*sanctified grace*" is infused into the soul of the water baptized and it is required of the Catholic to maintain it (i.e., avoiding any unrepentant "mortal" sin) until the moment of his death.

While this is true about the state of Grace, our “own Tradition” is the Teaching of the Apostles. To be “in Christ” is to have sanctifying grace within us, to walk in grace, and do works of grace. To be “in Christ” means to have no unrepentant sin (mortal or otherwise) all of our lives (not just the moment of death). To be “in Christ” means to persevere until the end.

Paul states nothing about a "*state of grace*" in those verses.  You read that doctrine into it.That's not the gospel message (Acts 16:30-31).  Nor the words of Christ Himself (Jn. 3:14-18).

I am sure it seems this way to you, since the gospel you received was truncated about 500 years ago. It almost seems like people have been shaving off parts of it ever since, so that the current product of the abridgement is hardly recognizable!

I am sure you may be able to find some verses that lack the words “in Christ”. That does not negate all the verses that do.

On the contrary, these are exactly the words of Christ.

John 15:3-7
4 Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

One who abides in Christ is in a state of grace. If one does not abide, then one will not bear fruit (have works of righteousness). This is one reason the works are so critical. They demonstrate tht one is connected to the vine.

Perhaps, though, you do not believe these words of Jesus apply to you. I find it interesting that, when Reformed Christians run across something like these words of Christ are too Catholic, they find a way to say they don’t apply to the Christian (or at least, not in this age).

The object of saving faith, according to the Scriptures, is the Person and, once for all, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. A faith that lifts us outside of ourselves and looks to and trusts completely in the “finished” work of Another - to the glory of God.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

This is another reason we find it so odd that you object to the concept of bearing fruit that befits repentance. It is part of us being lifted outside of ourselves, and conforming our character to that of Christ.

 

[Calvin_95]

There is an explicit statement in the Roman Catechism, compiled upon the conclusion of the Council of Trent at the command of Pope St. Pius V: “The Son of God appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, and others to be shepherds and teachers, who were to make known the word of life, that we might be no more like children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14)”, an apt description
of Protestantism I might add, “but might be built upon the firm foundation of faith into an habitation of God in the Spirit (Ephesians 2:22). In order however that no one might regard the word of God as merely the doctrine of men, but should receive it as the word of Christ (for this it indeed is), our Redeemer imparted so great a dignity to the teaching office of the Church, that He said: ‘He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me’ (Luke 10:16). These words applied not only to the persons to whom our Savior addressed them, but to all their legitimate successors in this teaching office, and He promised to remain with them all days, even to the consummation of the world (Matthew 28:20).” Thus the legitimate successors of the Apostles exercise the authority to teach as long as they in communion with the supreme Head of the Church.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

An apted description of a devout Catholic. The problem all of you have and refuse to consider is the fact that the church has yet to be unveiled according to God and the entire creation is waiting for the grand unveiling in the future of the “sons of God”, which is the church which Jesus is building , has been building and will continue to build until all the redeemed have come to Christ, the one’s the father chose before the foundation of the world. So to claim to know the true church that Christ is building would be the equivilent of being God.

 

[Calvin_95]

There is nothing in here that remotely mentions anything to the conclusion of “faith alone.” You have no idea of what eternal and temporal is. We do not contradict “one sacrifice” by making it present in the Mass. This goes to prove our idea of it: that our feeble minds cannot fully understand it. The Mass is God’s gift to us to show that he can do what we think is impossible, that is to make something eternal that happened temporally in the world. I am not sure what to say about the sacrifice thing but the Mass is just that; it is Jesus on the cross. Not again as you presume but re-presented as eternally as a gift from God. If you cannot understand that, say that. Do not make up something that clearly contradicts the idea of God being beyond temporalities of humanity. You limit Him. That is the definition of trivialize. You are making Him less significant. If you disagree, I am sorry for being candid but it is true. Christ did not die so we can take advantage of Him and indulge in sin and make a prideful confession with your conscience tied up and your sins unrepented through penance. Your misunderstanding of sin tells everybody just that, that you are taking advantage of His death. Why do you sin in your soul? Because you reject the love of God. Rejecting the love of God, by definition of God, is rejecting God. Confession through the utmost humility to a priest (which Christ Himself commands) and penance reconciliates the soul to God so that we have hopes of attaining eternal joy with our Source of Life, Truth and Joy. Jesus through His human form told us to confess to His priests. These are not priests of the Law, but rather priests of the New Testament, that is Love. We did not establish a priesthood or a new priesthood as you might think. CHRIST DID! It is a Sacrament of the Church for a reason. I do not suppose that you know what the Church calls a Sacrament. I will telll you if you do not (which is the present case): A Sacrament is that instituted by Christ. The priesthood is a Sacrament. The New Covenant might have taken away priesthood of the Levitical law (I have personally not read on that) but Christ started a new priesthood in the Law of Love. Hard concept which I am sure you could not gather from your studies of us. In any case, go look through the Bible for the verses where it says to confess to one another. I can do it but I want you to. I want you to make an honest search.

The Sacred Tradition of the Church knows more about sin because it acknowledges the plain old fact that everybody is a sinner. Protestants may say it but they do not acknowledge it. Maybe not all of them but I do think it is a terrible idea to over-generalize.

The only way for salvation is to act on the faith with works through the hope of being in heaven with God. You talk a lot about believing, repenting, carrying the cross, charital acts, loving neighbor and such but you do not consider those as works. You are not righteous. If you are, that is not up to you to decide. This is where your ideas are not in line with Scriptures because you take your textbook called Bible and read into it and call yourself a holy one because somewhere in the Bible they refer to somebody else as a holy one or saint. You are wrong. The Church speaks the Truth.

Jesus Himself says, “He who hears you, hears me.” You have not heard either. Just like He said, “Whatsoever you do to the lowliest of mankind, you did to me.” (something like that anyway but the same concept). Your teachers have taught you untruth. The Church, given to us by God in flesh, teaches this and is protected from untruth by the Holy Spirit lest the gates of Hades prevail against it (I really hope I am using the word “lest” right). This is more than knowledge, intelligence and belief; it is Truth. Just admit you have no idea what the Church teaches instead of putting new words and meanings in our doctrines, beliefs, and Traditions or changing the doctrine to fit it that it goes against Scripture. Atheists do this enough. We do not need our own brethren to do this to us.

Faith alone in Christ alone is so strongly implicit that it doesn’t have to use the word alone and in my opinion because it is so implicit in so many places that it is explicit in my opinion.

 

[moondweller]

Faith alone in Christ alone is so strongly implicit that it doesn’t have to use the word alone and in my opinion because it is so implicit in so many places that it is explicit in my opinion.

Calvin, I just tried to respond to your private message but you have it set up not to receive private messages.

 

[Calvin_95]

My point, which I suppose was not clear enough on retrospect, is that many Catholics on this thread have already put the Scripture verses. This is the reason why I personally will not put verses: 1. They already have and 2. You will not believe me anyway because Scripture is the only thing you have even though it says in Scripture that it is not the only thing. It is funny… Protestants burned down Catholic Churches and schools, broke the stained glass windows of the Ever-Virgin Mary (1644) and ran the ordained priests out of their buildings, but took the Bible with care as if it were your own. Do not tell me “must” because I am just reaffirming what the Bible already says as shown from my Catholic brethren on this thread. Read Cat Herder’s post about 10 posts ago.

I guess you do not pray for anyone. That would be intercessing also. Christ is Intercessor. We are intercessors. He is Man. We are man. He is Son of God. We are sons of God. He is Mediator. We are mediators.

Thanks for misunderstanding “Vicar”. Soon you are going to tell me that Vicar of the Son of God in Latin has the number of 666, which is very true. But we do not call him that. He is NOT substitute. This PROVES your holy ignorance of the Holy Father. He is the visible head of Christ’s Mystical Body. Can you guess who is the invisible Head? My guess is no. The Invisible Head is Christ. This is why the Church teaches Truth. And I do not disagree with you on the Holy Spirit. I hate when people think they are right about us.

I too put my faith in Christ completely and believe Him when He said for us to do penance, for example. We do not stand on the precepts of man! What is with you and your negative assertions? We too have based our belief on His Word and His Word alone. Words are written and spoken.

Scripture does not mention anything about a need for a visable head, since the Christian walks by faith and not by sight and Jesus is the head of the church and vicar means substitue just as veneration means worship.

(Latin vicarius, from vice, “instead of”); “instead of” is a substitute and that was taken from NewAdvent.

**Vicar of Christ
(Latin Vicarius Christi).

A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ.** - NewAdvent

 

[Sonoran_Son]

Indeed. But nonetheless, we shall continue to destroy their arguments for the sake of the lurkers and many others who will read these threads in the future.

As a lurker I know I have appreciated it. I seem to learn quite a bit from these type of discussions, even if I am not a participant.

 

[Calvin_95]

If one can lose salvation through sin, then Christ died needlessly. Such a doctrine denies the sacrificial work of God’s Lamb who took away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29). Also a denial of the testimony of God concerning His sacrificial death, sin and Divine forgiveness based on it. As John writes in his Epistle:1 John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake."Why for “His name’s sake?” Because 2000 years ago they (our sins) were ALL imputed to Him (God’s sin-bearer) on the cross and He died TO them, once for all (Rom. 6:10), subsequently raised to new life. He being the first fruits of the resurrection from the dead of those who are now His (purchased with His blood), having believed in Him unto eternal life (1 Cor. 15:20; Jn. 3:14-18).

Amen; how hard is that to see in Scripture and comprehend? Beyond me.

 

[guanophore]

Paying attention? I’ve studied your religion. Probably more than you have.

If this is true, then you should have no problem producing the documents that say we are saved by works, right?

You have studied, certainly, but apparently you have spend your time studying someones wrong ideas of what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. If you had realy studied Catholicism, you would know better than to make so many erroneous comments about it.

 

[Calvin_95]

I don’t want to talk about Catholic dogma or Tradition right now. Let’s talk about the Bible.

Baptism is necessary (Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16), as is the Eucharist for those who can receive (John 6:53). Mortal sin prevents worthy reception of the Eucharist (1 Cor 11:27-32) and so Penance becomes necessary if one lapses into mortal sin (Jn 20:23; 1 Jn 5:16-17).

Oh brother???

 

[Calvin_95]

Okay

Nope. It means “representative.”

Do you have a degree in semantics? Go to new advent like I did and lok up Vicar of Christ.

I can say Christ represented me on the cross by being my sin bearer or I can say Christ was my substitute on the cross that i deserve. Semantics.

Above and beyond the semantics is the holy Spirit the representative of Christ on earth or not? Please don’t answer I can’t handle it.

 

[Calvin_95]

Whether or not Melchizedek and Christ are the same person is completely irrelevant to whether or not the High Priest gave priestly authority to His Apostles.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 1:20-22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 4:14[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 5:22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:20-25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

If you want the truth you need to stop setting the Word of God against itself.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Peter 3:14-18[/BIBLEDRB]

Apostles are “sent ones”, not priests in the Catholic use of the term. Christ gave the priesthood of believers and that is all because that is all that is needed.

 

[Calvin_95]

If this is true, then you should have no problem producing the documents that say we are saved by works, right?

You have studied, certainly, but apparently you have spend your time studying someones wrong ideas of what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. If you had realy studied Catholicism, you would know better than to make so many erroneous comments about it.

1. What are the effects of the sacrament of Penance, worthily received?
   The effects of the sacrament of Penance, worthily received, are:

1.the restoration or increase of sanctifying grace;
2.the forgiveness of sins;
3.the remission of the eternal punishment, if necessary, and also of part, at least, of the temporal punishment, due to our sins;
4.the help to avoid sin in future;
5.the restoration of the merits of our good works if they have been lost by mortal sin.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Above and beyond the semantics is the holy Spirit the representative of Christ on earth or not? Please don’t answer I can’t handle it.

No, the Holy Spirit is not the representative of Christ on earth. A representative is lesser than the principal of the agency relationship. The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are equal to one another as they are to the Father—they are all the One God. Neither is any less than the other.

I can say Christ represented me on the cross by being my sin bearer or I can say Christ was my substitute on the cross that i deserve. Semantics.

Those statements are not equivalent. Christ did not represent you because Christ is far greater than you or I or anyone else. We are supposed to represent Christ on earth, not the other way around. Remember the representative is less than his master.

Christ’s Passion is the substitute for the eternal punishment that we deserve. However, Calvary was not simply an act of substitution but the sealing with blood of a New and Eternal Covenant between God and man. With that covenant comes terms and conditions and among them are a renunciation of sin, acceptance of the Holy Spirit and of a share in God’s own life. With those come the need to work out one’s salvation.

5.the restoration of the merits of our good works if they have been lost by mortal sin.

The works belong to God, not man. When we lose God we lose whatever merits the works were worth because they did not belong to us.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Scripture does not mention anything about a need for a visable head, since the Christian walks by faith and not by sight and Jesus is the head of the church and vicar means substitue just as veneration means worship.

With regard to “vicar” go read up on principal-agent law or see the above explanation.

If we really thought the Pope was a substitute for Christ in the sense that you are trying to imply, then we would have to worship him and eat him instead of the Eucharist. He is not missing any fingers, so you are wrong.

And with regard to “veneration” allegedly meaning “worship” I refer you to my standard debunking.

 

[Cat_Herder]

As a lurker I know I have appreciated it. I seem to learn quite a bit from these type of discussions, even if I am not a participant.

:tiphat: Happy to help!

 

[Cat_Herder]

That was already clearly refuted by God’s word.

That post was practically nothing but God’s Word.

Oh brother???

There’s more to read about salvation.

Faith alone in Christ alone is so strongly implicit that it doesn’t have to use the word alone and in my opinion because it is so implicit in so many places that it is explicit in my opinion.

Opinion of men, tradition of men, same difference.

An apted description of a devout Catholic. The problem all of you have and refuse to consider is the fact that the church has yet to be unveiled according to God and the entire creation is waiting for the grand unveiling in the future of the “sons of God”, which is the church which Jesus is building , has been building and will continue to build until all the redeemed have come to Christ, the one’s the father chose before the foundation of the world. So to claim to know the true church that Christ is building would be the equivilent of being God.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[guanophore]

You make a great claim here; now you must show it from Scripture the establishment of the Catholic priesthood.

Actually, we don’t. None of the Catholic faith “must be shown from Scripture”. That is because the Catholic faith was commited by Jesus to the Church prior to a word of the NT ever being written. The Church founded by Christ produced the Bible, and everything in it is Catholic. There is no contradiction between the Catholic faith and the scriptures. there cannot be, since they both come frmo the Same Source.

**For the priesthood established in Scripture is as follows; ironically from the pen of Peter through the Vicar of Christ, the Holy Spirit:**

The idea that the HS is a “vicar” of Christ creates a heresy. The HS is God, and is does not stand in the place of stewardship over that which belongs to Himself. Peter was given the care and feeding of the flock as a servant to that flock. The HS is not a servant to the flock, but the ruler of it.
Calvin 95;7213034:

9 But** ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood**

, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

It is good that you can accept that there is such a thing as a NT priesthood. Some people can’t even do that!

Incorporate the versus in Hebrews previously laid out for you and you cannot establish the Catholic priesthood from the use of God’s word; it is impossible.

One of the main reasons it is a bad idea to try to extract doctrine from a text 2000 years after the fact. Catholics can establish it, but that is because we don’t read the text with anti-catholic blinders on.

The priesthood was established by Christ decades before the NT was written, and centuried before the successors of the priests ordained by Christ canonized the NT.

With out a priesthood established by God, then how does this effect everything?

Lets see. No valid holy orders, no eucharist, no apostolic succession, separation from the Church and the promises of God made to the Church, etc, etc. It must have been a great offense to the Reformers to cause them to give up so much.

In every way in my understanding of the biblical priesthood that exists under the New Covenant and God did not make this obscure did He? Why does the Bible say there is only one intercessor; divine intercessor, between man and God the MAN Christ Jesus?

It does not. IT says there is only one MEDIATOR. IT says this because there is no one else qualfied to mediate our eternal salvation except for the Lamb of God, who was slain for our sins.

We are all called to intercede.

B]Why does Jesus say this in John 14:6?

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. What doe sVicar mean? Substitute. Does Creator use a creature as a substitue? May it never be!

I think you need to look at the role of the chief steward in the kingdom of David. Look and see the role of the Keys. I think it will be clear that it is quite beyond “substitute”. Such a word implies that the Head of the Household is not fully represented in the steward.

Creator uses the created to glorify Himself, and manifest Himself to the world.

it is not up to a man or group of men to whom I dare to put my trust;

I think this is a very important point. When people cannot trust God to work through other people, it is a serious risk, and a serious trust problem for many.

foundation of Jesus Christ; not on the precepts of men.

Clearly you think the priesthood was not established by Christ, but is “of men”. I am eager to know how you will dispatch the evidence of history, and especially where the powerful Jesus shown in Revelation disappeared.

  I know most will disagree; to each their own understanding; i have laid mine out based on His Word alone.

Actually, it is not really your own, but came first from the man whose name you have taken for your monniker.

He had to find every way possible to set aside the Catholic priesthood.

 

[moondweller]

Amen.

CCC 1104
Christian liturgy not only recalls the events that saved us but actualizes them, makes them present. The Paschal mystery of Christ is celebrated, not repeated. It is the celebrations that are repeated, and in each celebration there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that makes the unique mystery present.

It can’t be present. It happened “ONCE” (historically) for all time. And then an everlasting change took place. He resurrected to NEW life with a glorified body, never to die again. Hence, Scripture says we do it “in remembrance” of Him - according to FAITH. Always FAITH.

Whoa there pardner!

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 28:20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:20[/BIBLEDRB]

Whoa yourself pardner. Have you ever seen the Lord physically? Have you seen the imprint of the nails on his hands? Have you put your hand into His side (Jn. 20:25)? The truth is He is not with us physically. Physically He can be in only one place at a time - according to His humanity. He is omnipresent according to His Deity, not His humanity. And in His humanity His body is GLORIFIED, not longer subject to death. It LIVES forevermore. His resurrected, indestructible life is the basis for His High Priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7:15-17). Your “eucharist” would disqualify Him.

How can you be guilty of the body of the Lord if the body of the Lord isn’t there?..

One can be guilty of what it represents. “Do this in remembrance of Me.”

 

[moondweller]

The priesthood was established by Christ decades before the NT was written, and centuried before the successors of the priests ordained by Christ canonized the NT.

There were no “priests” (Gk. hiereus) ordained by Christ. He chose Apostles (Gk. apostolos) for the foundation of His church/temple, but no “hiereus” (priests). Elders (Gk. presbuteros/episkopos) were appointed in each local church assembly by men, but no hiereus (priests). It’s as simple as that, my friend.

He had to find every way possible to set aside the Catholic priesthood.

He simply had to go to the Scriptures. There were no “hiereus” ordained by Christ or appointed by men in the church. Scripture speaks only of the general priesthood of all believers.