Faith alone or not?

[Tomster]

Moondweller, do you even read the Bible, or just isolated passages from some book of quotes. Had you read the entire fist letter of Peter instead of stopping at line 5, you would have found these statements:
1Peter 1: 13 Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, live soberly, and set your hopes completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance
15 but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct,
16 for it is written, “Be holy because I (am) holy.”
17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,
18 realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold
19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb

So as usual, you stopped reading ater you heard what you wanted, that we are saved through faith. But there’s more, isn’t there. He calls us to **be **B]holy

and he recognizes that we will be judged according to our works. But wait, there’s more:

verse 22: Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart

oh but still more : Chapter 2 starts with this:
1 Rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, insincerity, envy, and all slander;
2 like newborn infants, long for pure spiritual milk so that through it you may grow into salvation,
3 for you have tasted that the Lord is good
So obviously sin matters. oh and this is verse 11 :
Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against the soul

So Peter is also is telling true believers that worldly desires wage war against the soul. This contradicts your view of OSAS, doesn’t it… and still he adds to it in chapter 3:
8 Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble.
9 Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing.
10 For: “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep the tongue from evil and the lips from speaking deceit,
11 must turn from evil and do good, seek peace and follow after it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against evildoers.”
And he continues:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

So now he says baptism saves you because it is an apeal to God for a clear conscience. (i.e forgiveness of sins) This is exactly what the church teaches but what you deny.

Bingo

 

[Tomster]

Moving into chapter 4, Peter says:
17 For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, how will it end for those who fail to obey the gospel of God?
18 “And if the righteous one is barely saved, where will the godless and the sinner appear.
19 As a result, those who suffer in accord with God’s will hand their souls over to a faithful creator as they do good?”
So now he says that judgement will begin with the believers. Yet you maintain that you are already saved. Seems that Peter is contradicting you again.

So it seems that as opposed to what you claimed from your single passage, Catholic teaching is completely in sync with what Peter preaches while you are diametrically opposed to his message.

To repeat what I have been telling you. Sure, faith is required for salvation, but so is baptism, good works, love, and holiness. And unlike what you believe, Peter is clear that your slavation can be lost if you don’t persist in these things. Take that to heart.

Bingo

 

[Cat_Herder]

Gal. 5:13-26 are experiential sanctification words, not soteriological words. They’re not instruction on how to BE saved, nor on how to maintain salvation.

Tradition of men.

(2) your religion has no concept of saved. It does not believe that God has the power to save anyone perfectly, by grace through faith, based on Christ’s finished work on the cross.

Christ has total power to save and he exercises it when someone is baptized into His Body. However, humans have free will and as with any gift, salvation can be forefeited. None of that has anything to do with “earning” salvation.

The problem is that to the Catholic every instruction on behavior is a condition for salvation because (1) yours is a works-based religion, not faith-based,

Ours is a grace based religion in which we rely on Jesus Christ and OBEY Him for our salvation. We do the best we can; He supplies the rest through grace.

Your religion is based on your own intelligence; you think that you will be saved because you are supposedly smarter than the Catholic Church, which has been around much longer than you or your church.

If that is not true then why are you here trying to tell us that we are wrong? We have faith in Christ; aren’t we then saved just as you are? No, you will say; you have to see it MY WAY in order to be saved. See how you are putting human conditions on salvation, doing the very thing of which you accuse the Church?

 

[Philthy]

Translated, you want to avoid all Scriptures that explicitly teach the believer’s salvation (by grace through faith) and justification (credited righteousness) by faith alone. You can’t handle it. It doesn’t fit you works oriented soteriology.

While it is true that your interpretation of “salvation by faith alone” doesnt fit my soteriology, that is not at all why I wish to avoid discussing verses of Scripture dealing with salvation. The reason, which I have already given you, is that when we use the word salvation we mean different things. I believe that salvation has a beginning and an end with respect to our mortal lives and that we can, after being “saved” by receiving the word with joy and believing, believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial and subsequently lose our inheritance in the Kingdom of God. And so each time you point to verses that speak of “salvation” you assume they apply not only to the point in time that we come to faith in Christ, but that they apply with respect to our inheriting the KOG; while I do not. And so, it is quite useful to discuss those verses that deal with going to Heaven/inheriting the KOG directly as they should, if your soteriology is correct, say the same things about our inheritance as they do about being “saved”. I resubmit that they do not and that inheriting the KOG is never spoken of as by faith alone. Further, not only are those verses absent, but the verses we do have contradict such a soteriology IMHO. Anyhow, that is why I am sticking to verses with “inheriting the KOG” in them…it eliminates and obviates our unresolved differences on the meaning and implications of the term “saved”. Fair enough?

I never said believers are “still in the flesh.” I would never say that. It’s anti-Scriptural. It’s against Paul’s teaching. Believers still “have” the flesh, but they are not "in the flesh."There’s a BIG difference.

You are correct that there is a big difference, but not in the context of the discussion we are having. The point is that because believers still “have the flesh” and will commit the same sins as unbelievers, your claim that Paul was identifying unbelievers by listing the sinful behaviors they commit makes no sense. That’s the point MD. Your position doesnt make sense because all of the sins committed by sinners are committed by believers and therefore you cannot distinguish them by their sins. But Paul does distinguish those who “inherit the kingdom of God” from those who do not by certain (unrepentant) sinful behaviors. It doesnt make sense if that inheritance is by faith alone and I cannot ignore those sections of Scripture that clearly call that soteriology into question. Furthermore, he should, if your faith alone soteriology were true, identify them as being “unbelieving” or “faithless” or some such term. But he does not. He says that NO ONE who commits such sins (unrepentantly) has any inheritance in the KOG.

But this also will go straight over your head because it has to do with the believer’s revealed, new identity in Christ which you cannot comprehend:

Thank you for “stating the facts” and not resorting to ad hominem attacks.

An unbeliever is unrighteous before God because he refuses to believe in the One through whom God Himself reckons (credits) His own righteousness (Rom. 4:1-6).

Like I said, MD, if this were the case then Paul would not identify unbelievers by pointing to their sinful behavior, but by pointing to their unbelief. But he doesnt, he points to behavior and says it excludes you from inheriting the kingdom. I agree with you though, Paul didn’t misspeak.

An Idolater has never believed.

Many who consider themselves believers, who profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior, because they still “have the flesh” have fallen into idolatry.

But Peter says of the believer, no longer in Adam, but born again in Christ, the Last Adam, through faith:1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."Are you allowed to disagree with someone you call your first “Pope?” Shouldn’t the teachings of all your subsequent Popes (and you) be in agreement with your first Pope? How can this be?You have your “clear scripture” regarding inheriting the kingdom of God in the above quote from the one you call your first Pope.
Now you need to deal with it.

You seem angry and frustrated. I’m sorry if what God puts on my heart from these Scriptures and in this discussion upsets you so much. I will simply say that the inheritance is imperishable because of it’s source: Christ. Our participation in it, however, is not until we have completed this life faithfully. We are protected by God through faith, but if we lose our faith - which happens all the time when people fall into sin - then we lose our protection and our inheritance as well.

But instead you want to believe entrance is based on WORKS alone.

This is a lie and you know it.

Blessings!

 

[moondweller]

Moon,

As with so many other things, you have failed to address the biblical fact that Jesus gave the Apostles the GOD BREATHED power to forgive post-baptismal sins.

Why do you think Jesus gave the apostles this power?

(1) I don’t see any place where Jesus “I give you the POWER to forgive post-baptismal sins.” He said: "John 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, {their sins} have been forgiven them; if you retain the {sins} of any, they have been retained.” There’s no giving of POWER there, nor does it state ANYTHING about "post-baptismal"sins. At best this forgiveness of sins is connected with their ministry of proclaiming the forgiveness of sins through personal faith in Jesus Christ:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”(2) So, I’ll ask you, can you show me in the Scriptures where men lined up before the Apostles to confess their sins to hear them say (after some sort of “penance”), “I have absolved your sins?” Or, “Your sins are retained, I refuse to absolve them?”

Tomster, how many of your sins has your confessor retained?

Remember Moon, the Bible tells us that Jesus BREATHED on the apostles and told them to receive the Holy Spirit in order that they may either forgive or retain sins. Quite an awesome power don’t you think?

It doesn’t say that He breathed on them in order to have that power. It, in fact, states nothing about a transference of power.

Or do you deny that Holy Spirit has the power to do this?

The ministry of the Holy Spirit during this church age is not to forgive sins:John 16:7-9 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;”

But then, by your own man made theology and your views regarding personal sin, we know that your answers to my last two questions are yes, you do deny both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I do not deny either Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. You bear false witness.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”/indent So, I’ll ask you, can you show me in the Scriptures where men lined up before the Apostles to confess their sins to hear them say (after some sort of “penance”), “I have absolved your sins?” Or, “Your sins are retained, I refuse to absolve them?”

[BIBLEDRB]John 20:23[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 2:10[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Cat_Herder]

(.The ministry of the Holy Spirit during this church age is not to forgive sins

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:11[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Philthy]

MD -

I noticed you have not responded to my outstanding post, 644, where Paul uses the term:

“fallen from grace”

Blessings!

 

[ignatius777]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

James tells us we are saved by works and not faith alone. The point being that works are a reflection of our faith and one without the other is not enough. One way to think about it is whats “necessary” for salvation and whats “sufficient” for salvation. Neither works nor faith alone are sufficient for salvation but are necessary and together they are sufficient. By way of an analogy…tires alone are not sufficient to operate a motor vehicle are they? An engine and a steering wheel are needed as well right? But the opposite is true as well. A car with an engine but no tires is very difficult to operate right? So something may be necessary but not sufficient.

Even non catholics would agree works are a result of faith. Where they fall down is wrongly believing that since we think works are important then we are denying faith. They believe ONLY faith is sufficient for salvation while we believe faith AND works is NECESSARY and SUFFICIENT for salvation. They think we believe works alone save us. Its what they have been force fed about catholics and they adhere to it strongly.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
It surprises us because this view is specifically denied by St. Paul in Galatians 5:

Can you not read? He is saying very specifically to believers (as you agree): I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
How can you possibly say that they have already SAVED if he is warning them that if they do those things, they will not inherit the kingdom of God? This is just nonsense.

He’s contrasting the FRUIT of the Spirit vs. the DEEDS of the flesh. And he tells them to walk by the Spirit and they will not carry out the desire of the flesh (5:16). In 5:13 he instructs them that they (Galatian believers) were called to freedom in Christ. IOW, not in bondage to the principle of law and works. But, he says, don’t turn your freedom into an OPPORTUNITY for the flesh, but in love serve one another.

I’m sorry Moondweller, he’s sayiing more than that. He’s saying that if you do those things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, Or do you not recognize this as a synonym for Going to Heaven?

As I pointed out to “Philthy,” the true believer still has the flesh, being yet in these unredeemed bodies, but positionally he is NOT “in the flesh” (Rom. 8:9) and therefore has the power to make a choice as to walk by the Spirit (who now indwells him) or by the flesh. This is the choice of the SAVED, not the unsaved (the unsaved have no power to make this choice, they don’t have the Spirit within them). It is not the message of salvation (the gospel), but instruction regarding experiential sanctification for the saved.

yes, you are right. Those with grace have the choice to walk by the spirit or to walk in the flesh. But you forget that there are ramifications to that choice. If you do as the spirit calls you to do, you will ultimately go to heaven, but if you choose to do otherwise, you will be condemned to hell.

Gal. 5:13-26 are experiential sanctification words, not soteriological words. They’re not instruction on how to BE saved, nor on how to maintain salvation. The problem is that to the Catholic every instruction on behavior is a condition for salvation because (1) yours is a works-based religion, not faith-based, (2) your religion has no concept of saved. It does not believe that God has the power to save anyone perfectly, by grace through faith, based on Christ’s finished work on the cross.

You say over and over again, with no learning, that Catholics have no concept of saved and that we practice a works based religion and that God is powerless. Why can’t you discuss based on what we actually believe, rather than some false strawman And how can you be so arrogant to claim you know our religion better than we do when you don’t even understand the basics?

Quoteaul c
He told the same thing to the believers in Corinth in 1Corinthians6 :
9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Alternatively, he is saying in 6:11 that those beleivers no longer acted that way.

Quote:
Are you seriously trying to say that Jesus died on the cross so that we could all be fornicators and still go to heaven?

The difference between Catholics and you in this regard is that Catholic believe that after you come into the state of grace, you can not return to previous sins without losing grace. You believe that turning from God in sin is inconsequential. My friend, everything you do has consequences. To deny that is foolishness.

 

[paul_c]

Quoteaul c
Moondweller, what is faith to you. Is it simply believing that God will save you if you believe that he should?

What you believe, unfortunately is a twisted version of God’s word. One that allows you to do anything you want without consequence simply because you believe God will save you despite all the evidence to the contrary

Quote:
This is wishful thinking and denies that God is just.

Of course we believe in the incarnation and the forgiveness of sins. I thought you said you understood Catholicism? What we DON’T believe is that if you continue to live in your sins after being pardoned, that God will just look past that.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, and many, many times before: the forgiveness of God toward sinners is not an immediate act of grace on His part, but it is rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that his debt has been PAID, in full (on the cross, by the shedding of blood), by Another (Col. 2:13-14). The righteous basis for God to forgive sins, and to forgive them perfectly, was provided in the cross (this you don’t believe).

 God gives those who sacramentally request it, a new start.  But he doesn't give a blank pardon for all future sins.  That is in no way scriptural  and what you have said above is not what is said in Col 2:13-14. This is what is actually said:
13 And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;

14 obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross;
he is talking about how through the cross, God brought you to life by forgiving your sins. It does NOT say that you are free to sin in the future…

Therefore, the Divine message of the “gospel” (good news) is that sinners are to be told that they may now stand forever pardoned before God: NOT because God is gracious enough to excuse their sins; but because there is plentiful redemption through the blood that has been shed (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 21:7).

The redemption through the blood of Christ would have no effect if God wasn’t gracious enough to accept it for our sins. Do you not understand that God is all powerful and is not subject to anyone or anything?

Hence, because of the cross God is free to forgive because through the cross of Christ His justice was met, i.e, satisfied, and He is now free to forgive, and to forgive perfectly.

God was always free to forgive. Who would tell him otherwise?

But this you do not believe. But I do. This is what faith is to me. I don’t merely believe God saved me, I believe HOW He did it, according to His Word. I believe in Him, because (like Abraham in Gen. 15:6) I believe His Word concerning Christ, and I rejoice in it.

Jesus died to reconcile us to God. That was freeing us, not God…God was always free.

---

 

[ncgolf]

(1) I don’t see any place where Jesus “I give you the POWER to forgive post-baptismal sins.” He said: "John 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, {their sins} have been forgiven them; if you retain the {sins} of any, they have been retained.” There’s no giving of POWER there, nor does it state ANYTHING about "post-baptismal"sins. At best this forgiveness of sins is connected with their ministry of proclaiming the forgiveness of sins through personal faith in Jesus Christ:

Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
​

The verse you quoted is not the same as I see it the NAB.
Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins in his name.”

This verse continues and ends with “through his name”. This implies faith of the believer yes, but how does one receive forgiveness “through his name”. Is there a physical component to this. I say yes … one can receive forgiveness “in his name” many times during one’s life, especially if you’re Catholic . Why would God give something without the ability to fulfill it, well he doesn’t.

Only the Catholic Church lives the final piece of this by receiving this forgiveness “in his name”.

The words of absolution are as follows:
“God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Faith is never alone.​

 

[ignatius777]

You are too funny. This comment is plain ridiculous in my opinion.

Well your entitled to your opinion but its wrong.

 

[Pax]

The answer is yes. But you don’t need the word “unrepentant” in there. A “true believer” who engages in fornication WILL go to heaven upon death. Why does that surprise you? Do you deny that that sin of fornication was imputed to Christ on the cross and He died to it once for all?

MD in Christ,

Thanks for responding. Now please note that we disagree here because your comments go directly against holy writ. I can cite numerous passages of scripture concerning the “need” for repentance which you contend to be unnecessary, but I will use but one in order to keep this post as short as possible. In 2 Corinthians 7:9-10, Paul addresses the believers as follows:

As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.

That verse directly contradicts all that you said in your post. The entire context surrounding that verse and the entire letter to the Corinthians as well as the entire on context of the NT denies your contention.

have been saved

" by grace through faith. Not, I “will be” saved by faith. You have no concept of the word “saved” because for the Catholic salvation is a process. Your future salvation will be based on your present performance.

I am not being continually justified. I was justified (reckoned righteousness) at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ. I am now and forevermore clothed in His righteousness. You see, Pax, it’s by His doing that I am in Christ Jesus who became to me wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, and so just as it is written, I boast in the Lord (1 Cor 1:30-31) and not my works, nor my own righteousness, nor my own piety, nor my own purity.

Now please note that once again scripture speaks directly against your contention that salvation is a one time past event. This particular point has been proven over and over within threads that you have participated in. We know that Abraham was justified three times(I will provide the proof if you need it), and in the following passages of scripture we can see that salvation is spoken as past, present, and future events.

Past Event: Rom. 8:24,
Eph. 2:5-8

Present Event: 1 Cor. 1-18,
2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12, 1Peter 1:8-9

FUTURE EVENT
Rom 13:11
Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15
Matt 24: 12-14
1 Peter 2:2-3

Beyond that, I will also repetitiously point that we do not believe that we are saved by our own works, piety, purity etc. We state what scripture states and our faith and our works are the works of the Father within us. I have asked you before to carefully study and understand Eph 2:8-10. When you include and understand verse ten in conjunction with verses 8 and 9, you will then understand the Catholic position and you will then cease misrepresenting Catholic theology.

Frankly, after all of this time, I am mystified as to why you persist in your mis-characterizations and straw man arguments. You argue against an erroneous preconceived idea as opposed to what the Church actually teaches and what we actually believe.

 

[Pax]

The answer is yes. But you don’t need the word “unrepentant” in there. A “true believer” who engages in fornication WILL go to heaven upon death. Why does that surprise you? Do you deny that that sin of fornication was imputed to Christ on the cross and He died to it once for all?

Alright, let’s look at this by way of scripture. First of all, I’ve already shown the necessity of repentance and that word will not be removed from my previous statement or from the discussion at hand in spite of your unwarranted protest.

Scripture says the following about anyone that commits fornication. The context of all of the verses which I am about to give includes believers and unbelievers. The warnings concerning fornication apply to all that remain unrepentant.

Ephesians 5: 5-6
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Please note that the verse says “no fornicator”. It simply doesn’t matter who it is. If they are unrepentant they will not go to heaven. They must have a "godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation per 2 Cor 7:10.

Galatians 5: 19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Once again, those that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. They need to repent.

Col 3:5-6
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

Once again, let’s here a big AMEN for “godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation” per 2 Cor 7:10.

Furthermore Paul says this:

Romans 2 3-11
Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Okay…so that gives you a picture of what Paul says on the subjects of fornication and repentance. Naturally, the rest of the NT confirms all of this, but let’s see just what’s said in the book of Revelation.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Revelation 2: 4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

So even though you do not think repentance is necessary we can clearly see that scripture says that it is.

Revelation 3: 1-5
"AND TO the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "'I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

Now please note that this statement is given to believers. Some have fallen into sin and are called to repent. If they have soiled their garments and do not repent then they will not be counted among those that will walk with the Lord in white. This means they will not go to heaven.

Obviously the book of Revelation calls for repentance among believers. So let see what it says about unrepentant fornicators.

Rev 21:7-8
He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.

Rev 22.14-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

Unrepentant fornication brings condemnation. Those that commit these sins must “wash their robes”. That is they must repent otherwise they will not have conquered and they will burn in the lake of fire.

Now, this is but a sample of what scripture says about such things and they all point to condemnation as the outcome of fornication if their is no repentance on the part of the person committing the sin of fornication.

If your theory was correct about all of this, then scripture would say so in no uncertain terms. The problem is that whenever scripture speaks of fornication and of repentance it is in direct contradiction of your opinion. If you can find scriptures on the subject of fornication or repentance that contradict the scriptures thus far quoted to you, then I would like to see them.

Now to answer your questions. Yes, I am surprised by your position since scripture denies it. Likewise, unrepentant sin is not imputed to Jesus on the cross in any way that brings salvation. If that were the case, everyone including non-believers would not be punished for unrepentant fornication.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Moon in Christ,

I took one of your phrases and turned it into a question. The question was:

Do you deny that grace inspired faith is needed for your future salvation and continual justification?

You answered with the following:

You ask that question because you believe that it’s your behavior that will save you (future tense).According to the Scriptures “have been saved” by grace through faith. Not, I “will be” saved by faith. You have no concept of the word “saved” because for the Catholic salvation is a process. Your future salvation will be based on your present performance.

I am not being continually justified. I was justified (reckoned righteousness) at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ. I am now and forevermore clothed in His righteousness. You see, Pax, it’s by His doing that I am in Christ Jesus who became to me wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, and so just as it is written, I boast in the Lord (1 Cor 1:30-31) and not my works, nor my own righteousness, nor my own piety, nor my own purity.

Just so we are clear, I need to know if I’m getting this right.

Are you saying that you only have to believe once, and just long enough to be declared righteous by God, and that after that it does not matter whether you have faith or not?

God bless.

 

[Calvin_95]

Im sure it is frustrating for you to engage with me but ad hominems do nothing to further your arguments, cause or reputation. Let’s try to stick to the facts, OK?
For the same reason you and cannot coherently discuss salvation, you and I cannot coherently discuss righteousness. You believe it to be a permanent attribute at the moment of faith and I do not. Inheriting the kingdom of God/Heaven, however, we both agree is permanent when we get there. That is why I purposely chose to discuss inheriting the kingdom. I do not wish to “import” our biases on “being saved” and “righteousness” into the discussion. If inheriting the kingdom is by faith alone, then Scripture should say so and it should avoid saying things that directly contradict that claim. So I am not interested in importing your “salvation theology” from Romans or Collossians or anywhere else. Im interested in these very clear letters from Paul which discuss inheriting the Kingdom of God. Are we clear?
Well if Christ’s atonement covers those sins, and believers who, according to you are still “in the flesh” will have moral lapses and commit those sins just as unbelievers will, then why does Christ use those sins as the means of identifying the unrighteous rather than say, “faithless”, or “unbeliever”??? Still unanswered MD. If - as you maintain - the unrighteous are so merely from unbelief and not from sins of idolatry, then Paul mis-spoke and his entire detracts from the message of faith alone.
It is NOT “who is an idolater”, but, “that is, an idolater”. Paul equates those sins with idolatry - he does not, as you weakly imply, claim that an idolater who commits them has no inheritance. It is true, of course that an idolater that commits them has no inheritance, but that is not what he is saying at all. He is equating immorality, impurity and covetousness as all forms of idolatry, which, of course, they are.
I know. Once you fall into idolatry you are no longer a true believer and you forfeit - unless you repent - your inheritance in the kingdom of God. Thats the whole point of the sections we are discussing. It appears that your stumbling block is the assumption that a true believer remains a true believer no matter what life choices he makes. I resubmit to you that Paul’s message in each of these sections is that true believers can fall into deadly sins that can jeopardize their inheritance in the kingdom of God. That is his whole point.

Yes and No. They were obedient to themselves and their desire for power and glory. They were not obedient to love of God and neighbor, which was the essence of the law.

Name one person who was righteous before Jesus stated your faith has made you well; always spiritually and sometimes both physically & spiritually. Consider this, did Jesus say He came to save the sinner or the righteous? He commented on both sides; so who should we believe? Jesus perhaps? When Jesus made these statements; one can bet they were truly saved and were in the Kingdom as soon as He said it; just as the thief on the cross.

Mark 2:17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; **I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” **

Matthew 9:10-13 "Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?” 12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy (righteous-mine) who need a physician, but those who are sick (unrighteous-mine). 13 “But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Romans 5:8-10 **But God demonstrates ****His **own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. **<-- the saved is explained above; in this context it is saved from what? The wrath of God. **

So if anyone is waiting or hoping or counting on assisting and cooperating with God in making oneself righteous before He will save; it will be a very long wait; like eternity and that person does not have a key doctrine dealing with salvation correct and that is very very thin ice.

I cannot imagine getting the doctine of propitiation wrong? "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; – 1John

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. – 1John

What was Jesus actively bearing and saving the unrighteous from? Sin and the penalty,which is eternal wrath? What can we contribute to the imputation of His righteousnes to the ungodly sinner? Nothing.

All of faith, which He Himself graciously gave for nothing & paid a hefty price; just because He wanted to & was able to and for His glory. Praise you Jesus; praise you and thank you Father!

 

[Calvin_95]

Moon,

As has been stated to you over and over and over again, it is truly amazing how, as an admitted fallible interpreter of Scripture, you keep trying to pass off your interpretations as infallible.

Admit it Moon, you don’t know and you don’t know that you don’t know.

I hope everyone wakes up and realizes MoonDweller is dead on accurate. Justification by God; another wonderful gift cannot be missed by a serious believer and student of Scripture and lover of God. If it is not by faith alone, then what is it by? Faith and works? Faith and cross your fingers and hope not to die? If someone tries to comeback with James 2; then that person shows further ignorance of Scripture and of what James is affirming and will have to explain away Paul in some twisted manner because that person will put James in conflict with Paul. If that were the case then burn your Bible; it is worthless.

 

[Pax]

I hope everyone wakes up and realizes MoonDweller is dead on accurate. Justification by God; another wonderful gift cannot be missed by a serious believer and student of Scripture and lover of God. If it is not by faith alone, then what is it by? Faith and works? Faith and cross your fingers and hope not to die? If someone tries to comeback with James 2; then that person shows further ignorance of Scripture and of what James is affirming and will have to explain away Paul in some twisted manner because that person will put James in conflict with Paul. If that were the case then burn your Bible; it is worthless.

Start a thread on the subject of faith and works pointing to reconciling Paul and James, and we will demonstrate where you are mistaken. Or save us the trouble and search the threads on this Forum and read the very complete back and forth discussions on the subject. If you are not convinced, that is one thing, but you will never IMHO be able to negate the strength of the presentations made against your position. The truth is their for you, if you have an open mind and a prayerful heart.

The most important thing is to understand fully Catholic teaching before you go further. Thus far, it is clear to me that you do not.

God bless.