Faith alone or not?

[ignatius777]

Let’s take ANOTHER look at Eph. 5:5-6, leaving it in its own CONTEXT, rather than interpreting it within you works salvation context.

Paul is instructing the Ephesian believers who, according to Eph. 2:8-10, "have been saved by grace through faith…the GIFT of God, NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS;" and who, having been saved through faith, are “created in Christ Jesus,” for good works (not BY those good works) that they should walk in them" (not be saved by them, see vss. 8-9 on how they were saved).Eph 5:3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and {there must be no} filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light."Paul is exhorting them to proper behavior according to who they ARE. He isn’t threatening them with loss of salvation. There are no threats of condemnation in this verse. The threats of condemnation come only from YOU, not Paul.

Paul states that no immorality or any impurity or greed should be even named among them, as is proper among SAINTS, along with any filthiness, silly talk or course jesting, which also is not fitting. Keep in mind, this is the first century and he’s writing to brand new Gentile believers who had ust come out of the darkness of paganism through faith alone in in Christ alone. We’re not talking 2000 years of the influence of Christianity and N.T. teaching.

He tells them that they already know with certainty that no immoral person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. And that it’s because of those things the wrath of God comes upon the “sons of disobedience.” But Paul is not calling them “sons of disobedience,” but rather the idolatrous, Gentile unbeliever, who, without Christ is “by nature” a child of wrath (see Eph. 2:1-3). Just as they were, prior to their faith in Christ.

Paul instructs those Ephesian SAINTS (holy ones, now in Christ and saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works, Eph. 2:8-9) that they are not to be “partakers with them.” Why? Because, he says, “you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.”

There’s no threat of condemnation in Paul’s words to the Ephesian believers, Pax. It’s you who condemn, it’s you who cast off God’s redeemed, God’s SAINTS, into the eternal pits of Hell - not Paul. Instead Paul teaches:Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.“It’s not Paul who condemns those “who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1). It’s you.IN CONTEXT, Pax, Paul made those in the Corinthian church sorrowful by his previous letter of rebuke to them. He didn’t rejoice in that, but it did lead them to the point of godly “repentance” (Gr. metanoia) That is, they had a “change of mind” regarding the negative situation which had occurred within their fellowship. They were allowing an immoral act to persists. And that “repentance,” a corporate change of mind,” regarding that situation was according to the will of God.

Paul explains in verse ten that there is a sorrow according to the will of God, and such a God-willed sorrow produces a repentance that is without regret and leads to salvation. Or, it could be translated: “leading to salvation without regret.” However, Paul wasn’t talking in the context of salvation here. But rather a godly sorrow which led them to right a wrong within their fellowship. In fact he states in verse eleven: “In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.” They addressed “the matter” and corrected it after being made sorrowful by the Spirit through his letter.

None of this is about salvation, say, as in Acts 2 where after Peter presented the gospel of Jesus Christ to that generation of Jews who crucified the Lord, and being “pierced to the heart” (the seat of belief, Rom. 10:9-10) and in grief asked, “Brethren (Jewish brethren) what shall we do?” Peter responded with “repent” (i.e., have a change of mind concerning Jesus whom they’d crucified). You see, Pax, in this case there was a godly sorrow (“pierced to the heart”) which resulted in a repentance leading to salvation. They BELIEVED in Christ. The requirement for salvation. That is not what was going on in Corinth.

Pax, in your unbelief, you continuously search the Scriptures to prove God wrong concerning salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. But you must lift many verses out of context in order to maintain your preconceived notion. Which you demonstrate nicely.

What degreee of certainty if any do you possess concerning your salvation?

 

[guanophore]

Paul is exhorting them to proper behavior according to who they ARE. He isn’t threatening them with loss of salvation. There are no threats of condemnation in this verse. The threats of condemnation come only from YOU, not Paul.

At least we are in agreement that Paul is exhorting proper behavior according to who they are. I think where we differ is that Catholics believe walking in this proper behavior is part of God’s expectation for us.

The nature of sin has not changed, Moon. Sin separates people from God. It separated them in the garden of Eden, and it continues to separate them today. A person who falls into these sins is no longer “in Christ”, as these are not the fruit of the Spirit, or the evidence of being attached to His vine.

I am not sure why you seem to have this pre-occupation with “threats”. The Apostle is clearly WARNING the flock of God about the eternal consequences of sin. This is an act of love, not of aggression on his part. He wants all of the faithful to inherit the Kingdom being prepared for them.

Paul states that no immorality or any impurity or greed should be even named among them, as is proper among SAINTS, along with any filthiness, silly talk or course jesting, which also is not fitting. Keep in mind, this is the first century and he’s writing to brand new Gentile believers who had ust come out of the darkness of paganism through faith alone in in Christ alone. We’re not talking 2000 years of the influence of Christianity and N.T. teaching.

The nature of sin does not change with the passage of time, Moon. Sin separates people from God today over these behaviors just as it did back then.

 He tells them that they already know with certainty that no immoral person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.  And that it's because of those things the wrath of God comes upon the "*sons of disobedience*."

I guess I can see why some people might feel threatened by this…

I think it is best if one obeys God out of love, but fear is better than disobedience.

 But Paul is not calling them "*sons of disobedience*," but rather the idolatrous, Gentile unbeliever, who, without Christ is "*by nature*" a child of wrath (see Eph. 2:1-3).  Just as they ***were***, prior to their faith in Christ.

And when one engages in sin, then one becomes a slave to that sin. One can return to being a son of disobedience.

There’s no threat of condemnation in Paul’s words to the Ephesian believers.

I am curious, Moon. What do you think happens to people who don’t inherit the Kingdom of God?

It is you who condemn, it’s you who cast off God’s redeemed, God’s SAINTS, into the eternal pits of Hell - not Paul.

The truth is that neither is true. Sin is what separates us from God, and lands us into eternal hellfire.

 Instead Paul teaches:Rom 8:1 "*Therefore there is now no condemnation* for those who are in Christ Jesus."It's not Paul who condemns those "*who have been **sanctified in Christ Jesus***, **saints by calling**" (1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1).

The main difference here is that Catholics believe that one who is “in Christ Jesus” cannot live in sin, and you apparently do.

You have said that God will discipline such a one (person living in sins) but if he never repents, he will still go to heaven.

Paul explains in verse ten that there is a sorrow according to the will of God, and such a God-willed sorrow produces a repentance that is without regret and leads to salvation. Or, it could be translated: “leading to salvation without regret.” However, Paul wasn’t talking in the context of salvation here. But rather a godly sorrow which led them to right a wrong within their fellowship.

Apparently you agree with Catholics that living in sin does damage our relationship with God. The difference appears to be that you believe one can be saved even if they are in a wrong relationship with God.

None of this is about salvation

This should be made into some kind of Reformed “refrain” since it is such a common traditional Reformation song that was created to oppose the Apostolic Teachings.

That is not what was going on in Corinth.

You seem to think that people who believe in Christ for salvation can continue in a life of sin, and not be concerned about the eternal consequences of that sin, since they had that “once for all” moment of faith.

 

[moondweller]

What degreee of certainty if any do you possess concerning your salvation?

One hundred percent. It’s based on a vacant cross and an empty tomb.

 

[ignatius777]

One hundred percent. It’s based on a vacant cross and an empty tomb.

Its not a surpruse you said 100%. So there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation is that right?

 

[moondweller]

At least we are in agreement that Paul is exhorting proper behavior according to who they are. I think where we differ is that Catholics believe walking in this proper behavior is part of God’s expectation for us.

I also see proper behavior as an expectation by God, which is according to the Scriptures. Where we part is that you make behavior a condition (a deal breaker) for one’s future salvation (this is called salvation based on “works”). IOW, one’s future salvation is determined by one’s past performance (salvation by works).

The nature of sin has not changed, Moon. Sin separates people from God. It separated them in the garden of Eden, and it continues to separate them today.

Sure, if there was no such Person as Jesus Christ and His historical death and subsequent bodily resurrection:Rom 3:21 "But now apart from law (i.e., the principle of: works) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (past tense: i.e., in Adam) and (continually, present tense) fall short of the glory of God, being justified (how?) as a gift (by what means?) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"And for this reason Paul goes on to write to the Roman church:Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death (that’s why in Adam all die), but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

A person who falls into these sins is no longer “in Christ”, as these are not the fruit of the Spirit, or the evidence of being attached to His vine.

A branch bearing fruit through the Vine, and walking in the Spirit are for believers, i.e., the SAVED. One who is “born again” into Christ, the “Last Adam,” through faith in Him, can no more be “unborn again” than a man can be unborn physically. The spiritual is far greater than the physical.

The nature of sin does not change with the passage of time, Moon. Sin separates people from God today over these behaviors just as it did back then.

Then you know nothing about what the Son, through the incarnation, came into this world to do (read Is. 53:5, 6, 11; Jn., 1:29; 1 Jn. 3:5; 1 Pet. 2:24; Heb. 9:26, for starters).

I am curious, Moon. What do you think happens to people who don’t inherit the Kingdom of God?

There’s only one other alternative. But the inheritance is based on FAITH. Just as it was with Abraham.

The truth is that neither is true. Sin is what separates us from God, and lands us into eternal hellfire.

Not according to Jesus in Jn. 3:14-18 and 5:24.

The main difference here is that Catholics believe that one who is “in Christ Jesus” cannot live in sin, and you apparently do.

The believer no longer in Adam but now “in Christ Jesus,” the “Last Adam” has the potential in these yet unredeemed bodies to commit sins. Even those which Christ Himself bore on the cross 2000 years ago. It’s not sin that keep one out of the kingdom of God, it’s unbelief. Salvation by works is unbelief.

You have said that God will discipline such a one (person living in sins) but if he never repents, he will still go to heaven.

To “repent” in respect to salvation is to change one’s mind regarding Jesus and His sacrificial work on the cross. There are many religious men living very disciplined lifestyles who have yet to “repent” (change their minds) concerning belief in Jesus, His sacrificial work and salvation.

Apparently you agree with Catholics that living in sin does damage our relationship with God.

Sin cannot change the believer’s “saved” relationship with God. That (his salvation) was made secure through Christ (His work). Where we differ, my friend, is how one is “saved” in the first place. Works vs. “by grace through faith.”

You seem to think that people who believe in Christ for salvation can continue in a life of sin, and not be concerned about the eternal consequences of that sin, since they had that “once for all” moment of faith.

I would be concerned for the person who "SAYS he believes in Christ but continues to live a life of sin. Just like the one in the Epistle of James who “SAYS” he has faith but nothing demonstrates it.

Pax presented me with a hypothetical. I responded hypothetically. A hypothetical does not take into consideration the practical, such as spiritual regeneration.

 

[moondweller]

Its not a surpruse you said 100%. So there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation is that right?

NOTHING! Will Christ reverse what He did on the cross? Will God cause my sins to be imputed back to me? Not according to the Scriptures. What Christ accomplished he accomplished “once for all.” :extrahappy:Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."Those were MY sins, my friend.

 

[ignatius777]

NOTHING! Will Christ reverse what He did on the cross? Will God cause my sins to be imputed back to me? Not according to the Scriptures. What Christ accomplished he accomplished “once for all.” :extrahappy:Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."Those were MY sins, my friend.

So you cant even give back your salvation if you wanted to, isnt that right? This “assurance” of salvation goes along with the concept of faith alone for protestants.

 

[Cat_Herder]

NOTHING! Will Christ reverse what He did on the cross? Will God cause my sins to be imputed back to me? Not according to the Scriptures. What Christ accomplished he accomplished “once for all.” :extrahappy:Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."Those were MY sins, my friend.

So why weren’t you born saved?

 

[ignatius777]

So why weren’t you born saved?

What happens next will be fascinating. Some believe they were “elected” by God for salvation so they have no choice either way while others say they “accept” Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior which begs the qustion what really saves you, Jesus dying or your “accepting”?

 

[Pax]

Let’s take ANOTHER look at Eph. 5:5-6, leaving it in its own CONTEXT, rather than interpreting it within you works salvation context.

Paul is instructing the Ephesian believers who, according to Eph. 2:8-10, "have been saved by grace through faith…the GIFT of God, NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS;" and who, having been saved through faith, are “created in Christ Jesus,” for good works (not BY those good works) that they should walk in them" (not be saved by them, see vss. 8-9 on how they were saved).Eph 5:3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and {there must be no} filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light."Paul is exhorting them to proper behavior according to who they ARE. He isn’t threatening them with loss of salvation. There are no threats of condemnation in this verse. The threats of condemnation come only from YOU, not Paul.

Paul states that no immorality or any impurity or greed should be even named among them, as is proper among SAINTS, along with any filthiness, silly talk or course jesting, which also is not fitting. Keep in mind, this is the first century and he’s writing to brand new Gentile believers who had ust come out of the darkness of paganism through faith alone in in Christ alone. We’re not talking 2000 years of the influence of Christianity and N.T. teaching.

He tells them that they already know with certainty that no immoral person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. And that it’s because of those things the wrath of God comes upon the “sons of disobedience.” But Paul is not calling them “sons of disobedience,” but rather the idolatrous, Gentile unbeliever, who, without Christ is “by nature” a child of wrath (see Eph. 2:1-3). Just as they were, prior to their faith in Christ.

Paul instructs those Ephesian SAINTS (holy ones, now in Christ and saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works, Eph. 2:8-9) that they are not to be “partakers with them.” Why? Because, he says, “you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.”

There’s no threat of condemnation in Paul’s words to the Ephesian believers, Pax. It’s you who condemn, it’s you who cast off God’s redeemed, God’s SAINTS, into the eternal pits of Hell - not Paul. Instead Paul teaches:Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.“It’s not Paul who condemns those “who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1). It’s you.IN CONTEXT, Pax, Paul made those in the Corinthian church sorrowful by his previous letter of rebuke to them. He didn’t rejoice in that, but it did lead them to the point of godly “repentance” (Gr. metanoia) That is, they had a “change of mind” regarding the negative situation which had occurred within their fellowship. They were allowing an immoral act to persists. And that “repentance,” a corporate change of mind,” regarding that situation was according to the will of God.

Paul explains in verse ten that there is a sorrow according to the will of God, and such a God-willed sorrow produces a repentance that is without regret and leads to salvation. Or, it could be translated: “leading to salvation without regret.” However, Paul wasn’t talking in the context of salvation here. But rather a godly sorrow which led them to right a wrong within their fellowship. In fact he states in verse eleven: “In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.” They addressed “the matter” and corrected it after being made sorrowful by the Spirit through his letter.

None of this is about salvation, say, as in Acts 2 where after Peter presented the gospel of Jesus Christ to that generation of Jews who crucified the Lord, and being “pierced to the heart” (the seat of belief, Rom. 10:9-10) and in grief asked, “Brethren (Jewish brethren) what shall we do?” Peter responded with “repent” (i.e., have a change of mind concerning Jesus whom they’d crucified). You see, Pax, in this case there was a godly sorrow (“pierced to the heart”) which resulted in a repentance leading to salvation. They BELIEVED in Christ. The requirement for salvation. That is not what was going on in Corinth.

Pax, in your unbelief, you continuously search the Scriptures to prove God wrong concerning salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. But you must lift many verses out of context in order to maintain your preconceived notion. Which you demonstrate nicely.

MD in Christ,

Even though the verses and the context actually include the word salvation they are not really about salvation?

You will never convince anyone of such nonsense who is willing to read the scriptures as they are stated. That is pure fiction on your part and I’m afraid it is strictly driven by your doctrine. That is eisegesis plain and simple.

God bless.

 

[ncgolf]

I would be concerned for the person who "SAYS he believes in Christ but continues to live a life of sin.

Why would you have the least bit of concern, it cannot be for the person sinning if his moment of personal belief came years ago? Who are you specifically concerned for? Why would it matter, in your theology whether he strayed for his marriage vows, as an example, once or a thousand times? In your understanding that moment of faith proclaimed years ago sealed the deal. It covered past, present and future sin. Personal faith saved him. I really do not understand the concern based on your constant exhortation that after personal belief in Christ one is saved.

Just like the one in the Epistle of James who “SAYS” he has faith but nothing demonstrates it.

Who are you to judge others personal faith moment? Once one proclaims this faith, I imagine in his heart, the proclaimer has infalliably and without error secured his future. No future work is required, though God would like it.

Have you ever convinced anyone their personal faith may be in question thus calling into question his/her eternal security? If you did I wonder on what basis one would even do this? Your belief system is between you and Jesus only.

With a theology of personal faith … you are own arbiter of whether that faith proclaimed saved and to its geniuneness.

It bothers me that in this scenario one is saved and the other is not. A married believer cavorts with another married unbeliever and this relationship is discovered it ends both marriages. They both consent and engage in this awful behavior, wrecking the homelife of children and yet one has been forgiven before the event even happens and the other is not. Who in this scenario is **required **to repent?

The damage the sin does wrecks people’s lives and yet the only one unscathed is the believer.

I can see why one is a dung heap and the other a snow covered dung heap … you are what you are.

 

[Philthy]

Let’s take ANOTHER look at Eph. 5:5-6, leaving it in its own CONTEXT, rather than interpreting it within you works salvation context. Paul is instructing the Ephesian believers who, according to Eph. 2:8-10, "have been saved by grace through faith…the GIFT of God, NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS;"

You keep insinuating that avoidance of sin is a form of “good works”. Where did you get this idea that a negative action is a work? It seems odd and off the mark to me.

Paul is exhorting them to proper behavior according to who they ARE. He isn’t threatening them with loss of salvation. There are no threats of condemnation in this verse. The threats of condemnation come only from YOU, not Paul.

It remains both a exhortation and a warning despite your pleading to the contrary.

There’s no threat of condemnation in Paul’s words to the Ephesian believers, Pax. It’s you who condemn, it’s you who cast off God’s redeemed, God’s SAINTS, into the eternal pits of Hell - not Paul. Instead Paul teaches:Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Sorry MD, but they are no longer “in Christ” if they are rejecting Christ’s command to love God and neighbor, and that is exactly what one does when they engage in the sins Paul mentions. It is idolatry and no one who commits idolatry is a “true believer” anymore; nor do they have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Paul explains in verse ten that there is a sorrow according to the will of God, and such a God-willed sorrow produces a repentance that is without regret and leads to salvation… However, Paul wasn’t talking in the context of salvation here.

Im sorry, but this makes no sense. It isnt merely the context of salvation, he used the actual word “salvation”. The godly sorrow produced a repentance that leads to salvation. It doesnt require any great analysis, context or historical perspective really. It isnt that complicated. The only complicated thing about it is your ridiculous and long-winded attempt to explain away a very simple, clear statement.

Pax, in your unbelief, you continuously search the Scriptures to prove God wrong concerning salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. But you must lift many verses out of context in order to maintain your preconceived notion. Which you demonstrate nicely.

At least he’s not afraid to discuss Galatians 5:4. Oh yeah - I went there!
I think Im gonna make this my signature now:
“You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
How could a Christian be “separated from Christ”?
How could a Christian “fall from grace”?

Blessings!

 

[Pax]

Let’s take ANOTHER look at Eph. 5:5-6, leaving it in its own CONTEXT, rather than interpreting it within you works salvation context.

Paul is instructing the Ephesian believers who, according to Eph. 2:8-10, "have been saved by grace through faith…the GIFT of God, NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS;" and who, having been saved through faith, are “created in Christ Jesus,” for good works (not BY those good works) that they should walk in them" (not be saved by them, see vss. 8-9 on how they were saved).

Moon in Christ,

You are at least partially correct concerning Eph 2:8-10.

Catholics agree that when God brings us into a state of justification and belief, that it is completely gratuitous. You of course should already know that because I personally explained it to you on other threads on two or three separate occasions. So please try not to educate Catholics on something they already believe as if they do not already believe it. This an example of what I was complaining about when I said that I am mystified as to why you mis-characterize Catholic theology.

Likewise, Catholics do not claim that any works prior to God justifying us as described in Eph 2-8-10 are instrumental in that justification. Once again, it is all gratuitous.

Now, I’ll explain Eph 2:8-10 once again in the hope that you will appreciate Catholic teaching. Please note that in Eph 2:8-9 that it is God’s work in us by grace by which we are able to believe. That work is not of us. Likewise, in verse 10 it is the work of the Father by which we are made "a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which the Father prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." We have nothing to do with that either. All of this is the work of the Father and none of it is to be dismissed or demeaned as unnecessary for salvation.

Moreover, it is extremely significant that the passage mentions that the works that we are to do as a new creation in Christ Jesus were actually “prepared beforehand”. Paul is telling us that the Father actually prepared the works that we are to do as a new creation in Christ Jesus "before he justified us."

The Father’s desire is not to simply impute justification. The Father makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. Justification is not merely an imputation, it is instead an ontological change within us. We know that this is an ontological change at justification because of the following scriptures among many others.

Romans 5:4
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

The phrase “made righteous” is clearly ontological just as the fall is ontological.

The word “made” in Greek is “katestathesan” which refers to a real, actual, ontological change in the person’s soul…NOT merely a legal declaration.

That ontological change is consistent with Catholic theology, but it is not consistent with Calvinist theology and imputation alone. Likewise, it begins to explain the relationship between grace, faith, and works which all come from the Father. It is the Father working in us who are made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. The Father’s purpose in this is to “conform us to the image of his son” per Romans 8:29.

It is not our works, but the Father’s works which we do by the power of his grace as we live by faith. We cannot take the credit for the grace that justifies. We cannot take the credit for being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. We cannot take credit for the works that the Father prepared in advance of our justification even though we are to walk in them. All of the power, credit and glory go to God.

We do not believe that we earn our salvation, so please stop falsely accusing us of believing such a thing. We simply have the proper understanding of the relationship of grace, faith, and works. Likewise, we properly recognize the source of these, and we recognize the necessity of all of these for salvation just as described in scripture.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

I also see proper behavior as an expectation by God, which is according to the Scriptures. Where we part is that you make behavior a condition (a deal breaker) for one’s future salvation (this is called salvation based on “works”). IOW, one’s future salvation is determined by one’s past performance (salvation by works).Sure, if there was no such Person as Jesus Christ and His historical death and subsequent bodily resurrection:Rom 3:21 "But now apart from law (i.e., the principle of: works) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (past tense: i.e., in Adam) and (continually, present tense) fall short of the glory of God, being justified (how?) as a gift (by what means?) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"And for this reason Paul goes on to write to the Roman church:Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death (that’s why in Adam all die), but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."A branch bearing fruit through the Vine, and walking in the Spirit are for believers, i.e., the SAVED. One who is “born again” into Christ, the “Last Adam,” through faith in Him, can no more be “unborn again” than a man can be unborn physically. The spiritual is far greater than the physical.Then you know nothing about what the Son, through the incarnation, came into this world to do (read Is. 53:5, 6, 11; Jn., 1:29; 1 Jn. 3:5; 1 Pet. 2:24; Heb. 9:26, for starters).There’s only one other alternative. But the inheritance is based on FAITH. Just as it was with Abraham.Not according to Jesus in Jn. 3:14-18 and 5:24.The believer no longer in Adam but now “in Christ Jesus,” the “Last Adam” has the potential in these yet unredeemed bodies to commit sins. Even those which Christ Himself bore on the cross 2000 years ago. It’s not sin that keep one out of the kingdom of God, it’s unbelief. Salvation by works is unbelief.To “repent” in respect to salvation is to change one’s mind regarding Jesus and His sacrificial work on the cross. There are many religious men living very disciplined lifestyles who have yet to “repent” (change their minds) concerning belief in Jesus, His sacrificial work and salvation.Sin cannot change the believer’s “saved” relationship with God. That (his salvation) was made secure through Christ (His work). Where we differ, my friend, is how one is “saved” in the first place. Works vs. "by grace through faith."I would be concerned for the person who "SAYS he believes in Christ but continues to live a life of sin. Just like the one in the Epistle of James who “SAYS” he has faith but nothing demonstrates it.

Pax presented me with a hypothetical. I responded hypothetically. A hypothetical does not take into consideration the practical, such as spiritual regeneration.

So Moondweller,
How does someone know that he really has saving faith that will ensure he goes to heaven? In your sotierology, how is that covenant relationship defined?

 

[Philthy]

MD in Christ,

Even though the verses and the context actually include the word salvation they are not really about salvation?

You will never convince anyone of such nonsense who is willing to read the scriptures as they are stated. That is pure fiction on your part and I’m afraid it is strictly driven by your doctrine. That is eisegesis plain and simple.

God bless.

Well done Pax! I really enjoyed your summary of Catholic theology on Eph 2:8-10…outstanding!

 

[Pax]

Phil,

Thanks for the kind words.

God bless.

 

[fhansen]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

Like St John of the Cross said, At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

This means that man must fulfill the commandments, i.e. what we do counts. And this has always been Catholic teaching, that man must cooperate with God, who writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds.;

 

[paul_c]

Moon in Christ,

You are at least partially correct concerning Eph 2:8-10.

Catholics agree that when God brings us into a state of justification and belief, that it is completely gratuitous. You of course should already know that because I personally explained it to you on other threads on two or three separate occasions. So please try not to educate Catholics on something they already believe as if they do not already believe it. This an example of what I was complaining about when I said that I am mystified as to why you mis-characterize Catholic theology.

Likewise, Catholics do not claim that any works prior to God justifying us as described in Eph 2-8-10 are instrumental in that justification. Once again, it is all gratuitous.

Now, I’ll explain Eph 2:8-10 once again in the hope that you will appreciate Catholic teaching. Please note that in Eph 2:8-9 that it is God’s work in us by grace by which we are able to believe. That work is not of us. Likewise, in verse 10 it is the work of the Father by which we are made "a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which the Father prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." We have nothing to do with that either. All of this is the work of the Father and none of it is to be dismissed or demeaned as unnecessary for salvation.

…

The Father’s desire is not to simply impute justification. The Father makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. Justification is not merely an imputation, it is instead an ontological change within us. We know that this is an ontological change at justification because of the following scriptures among many others.

Romans 5:4
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

The phrase “made righteous” is clearly ontological just as the fall is ontological.

The word “made” in Greek is “katestathesan” which refers to a real, actual, ontological change in the person’s soul…NOT merely a legal declaration.

That ontological change is consistent with Catholic theology, but it is not consistent with Calvinist theology and imputation alone. Likewise, it begins to explain the relationship between grace, faith, and works which all come from the Father. It is the Father working in us who are made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. The Father’s purpose in this to “conform us to the image of his son” per Romans 8:29.

It is not our works, but the Father’s works which we do by the power of his grace as we live by faith. We cannot take the credit for the grace that justifies. We cannot take the credit for being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. We cannot take credit for the works that the Father prepared in advance of our justification even though we are to walk in them. All of the power, credit and glory go to God.

We do not believe that we earn our salvation, so please stop falsely accusing us of believing such a thing. We simply have the proper understanding of the relationship of grace, faith, and works. Likewise, we properly recognize the source of these, and we recognize the necessity of all of these for salvation just as described in scripture.

God bless.

This was well said, but I would add that there even though men can’t earn their way to heaven, their cooperation with God’s grace in their lives does have merit, just as their choice to not cooperate with God’s grace (which is to say, they sin) leads to condemnation. While we can not work our way to heaven, we should also recognize that we do have some responsibility in our own salvation. A better way to put it is that we must love our way to heaven, following Jesus’ words and example. And remember, Love is doing something without expecting anything in return. Works must be in this vein to be spiritually rewarding. We must do them out of love, not to earn a reward. And this is what Moondweller can’t quite understand. We do works because we are compelled to do them out of lvoe or God and neighbor. And if we fail to do them, and instead sin, we will be condemned. If he truly has saving Faith as he claims, Moondweller too will be compelled to do the works of God, because that is the output of such faith. Faith without works as we all know, is DEAD. and if you have faith enough to move mountains but do not have love, you are nothing. Therefore, while we must thank God for the grace to do his works, we can not blame God if we fail to do them and are condemned for that choice.

At its very essence, Reformed theology eshews all personal responsibility for salvation. It is all in God’s hands, with nothing for man to do but play out the role set out or him - a living puppet as it were. To me, this undersells both God and man because it makes man nothing more than an automaton (and a corrupt one at that) and makes God unjust and unloving because some men are condemned through no fault of their own.

Catholic theology has a much more elevated view of both God and Man. In our theology, man has been given real free will - he can chose between good and evil and will reap the benefits or pay the price as he deserves. While beholden to God for everything he has, he does bear real responsibility for his own salvation and can help in the salvation of others. And God is Just, judging men on their own merits; loving and merciful, always reaching out to man and allowing him infinite chances to repent; and all powerful, able to complete his plan for us all while still allowing men free will.

 

[guanophore]

I also see proper behavior as an expectation by God, which is according to the Scriptures.

I notice you always dance delicately around this whenever you are confronted on whether or not it is required.

Where we part is that you make behavior a condition (a deal breaker) for one’s future salvation (this is called salvation based on “works”). IOW, one’s future salvation is determined by one’s past performance (salvation by works).

No, we don’t part on this point. In fact, I think we agree that a person who is saved will walk in the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. If a person wants to live a life of sin, you would not consider such a person a “true believer”, using the modern invented term. In like manner, when we receive Christ’s teaching “ye shall know them by their works”, we believe that a ersons actions reflect the state of their soul. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit, right?

So really, it has a lot more to do with our PRESENT salvation than it does the future. A Catholic is saved when they are baptized, and sealed by the promised HS. Their faith is perfected by their works, and when they walk in His commandments, they are sanctified according to His grace working in them by the HS. It is this work of grace, by faith, through which we are saved.

I agree with you, though. If a person has to “work” their way to heaven, it does constitute a “works based salvation”.

"[/indent]And for this reason Paul goes on to write to the Roman church:

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death
​

What is curious is that you think the wage has changed when someone “comes to believe” in Christ. This is not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching.

… can no more be “unborn again” than a man can be unborn physically. The spiritual is far greater than the physical.

You will get no arguement from Catholics on this point, either. God loves His children so much, He will let them walk away from Him if they so desire. It does not make them any less adopted.

The believer no longer in Adam but now “in Christ Jesus,” the “Last Adam” has the potential in these yet unredeemed bodies to commit sins. Even those which Christ Himself bore on the cross 2000 years ago. It’s not sin that keep one out of the kingdom of God, it’s unbelief.

The two are inseparabely connected, MD. A person who is “in Christ” does not live a life of sin. A person who chooses to live a life of sin does not have saving faith, or chooses not to exercise it. Unbelief bears the fruit of disobedience. The bad tree, bearing the bad fruit.

Salvation by works is unbelief.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

To “repent” in respect to salvation is to change one’s mind regarding Jesus and His sacrificial work on the cross. There are many religious men living very disciplined lifestyles who have yet to “repent” (change their minds) concerning belief in Jesus, His sacrificial work and salvation.

That may be, but Jesus told us that we are not in a position to judge the state of another person’s soul. His commandment not to pull up the tares from the wheat is one of the great puzzles of your presence here. You seem intent upon pulling up Catholics by their roots, against His explicit instructions.

Sin cannot change the believer’s “saved” relationship with God.

Such a concept contradicts the witness of the Scriptures, and the Teaching of the Apostles. The nature of sin has not changed, just because Jesus has rescued us from slavery to it, MD. Sin is like leprosy, and Jesus was quite clear that sin is damaging to our relationships with one another, as well as to Himself.

Where we differ, my friend, is how one is “saved” in the first place. Works vs. “by grace through faith.”

No, MD, I don’t think we do. I embrace the Joint Declaration, which I don’t think even you could find any fault in, except that it was signed by Catholics.

I would be concerned for the person who "SAYS he believes in Christ but continues to live a life of sin. Just like the one in the Epistle of James who “SAYS” he has faith but nothing demonstrates it.

Indeed as we should be. James writes that our works “perfect” or “complete” our faith, which is why we consider them to be inseparable from the faith that justifies us. Our faith needs to be completed and perfected. If it did not, Jesus would not have commanded it!

Pax presented me with a hypothetical.  I responded hypothetically.  A hypothetical does not take into consideration the practical, such as spiritual regeneration.

This is also why we never judge anyone’s “future” salvation, including our own. We cannot know if a person steeped in a life of sin may repent at the last minute, and place their faith in the saving blood of Christ.

Even a person who has believed, and fallen again into sin, may return to right relationship with God at any point. If that happens, God will put their sins as far as the East is from the West, and their reward will be the same as those who have “borne the heat of the day”.​

 

[guanophore]

So you cant even give back your salvation if you wanted to, isnt that right? This “assurance” of salvation goes along with the concept of faith alone for protestants.

Yes, the concepts do go together, but the vast majority of our separated brethren have not fallen for the heresy commonly referred to around here as OSAS (“once saved always saved”)

Most of our separated brethren still hold to the Apostolic Faith that it is possible to be cut off from grace. Those who do not have been contaminated with Calvanism, and often embrace the TULIP he invented.