Faith alone or not?

[paul_c]

Man, I feel so bad for not keeping up with this thread, and I really do not feel like reading all 13 pages! And it already has over 2,000 views.

Wow!

I’m asking a big favor of y’all: can you briefly summarize what we’re currently talking about? What is it?

Thanks

we’re debating the merits of Sola Fide for the umpteenth time, with Moondweller supporting the Sola Fide view. Read the last page and you’ll catch on quickly.

 

[twinc]

we’re debating the merits of Sola Fide for the umpteenth time, with Moondweller supporting the Sola Fide view. Read the last page and you’ll catch on quickly.

short circuit everything and find the right answer at Catholic/Lutheran conference - twinc

 

[Pitcharan]

We could see that Christ said “Anyone who believes shall not perish, but will have eternal life”, so what is believe? What is the right definition of believe? It couldn’t be just acknowledge Jesus as the eternal Savior, that would be contradicting to what He said: “Not everyone who call me Lord, Lord shall go into heaven”, this is where Fundamentalist Christians got in trouble with, what is the meaning of belief?

Hi. I invite you to check this out:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7019202#post7019202.
Regards
Pitcharan

 

[Pax]

John spoke of the coming of the Messiah to Israel. His was not the gospel of salvation through faith in Christ which was entrusted to Christ’s Apostles AFTER His death, burial and resurrection, but the “gospel of the Kingdom,” which is earthly and was presented to national Israel (see Matt. 3:2; cf. 4:23; 9:35).Each of these has to do with Christ preaching the “gospel of the Kingdom.” That (earthly) Kingdom (see Lk. 1:32-33) never materialized because of national Israel’s rejection of their Messiah. So it was postponed. Keep in mind Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 15:24). That “gospel of the Kingdom” is the one of which the O.T. Jewish prophets prophesied. The “gospel of the Kingdom” will again be preached at the end of this age, just prior to the return of Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords (see Matt. 24:14). It’s an earthly Kingdom over which Jesus reigns for 1000 years.

But now, instead, He ascended back into Heaven and sitting on the right hand of the Majesty on High He has been building His church through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles by grace alone through faith in Him alone. This is the “gospel” entrusted to His Apostles. It’s not the “gospel of the Kingdom,” but the “gospel” (good news) of eternal salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ. It’s the gospel found (primarily) in the N.T. Epistles. A “gospel” of salvation which entails forgiveness of all sins, redemption through His blood, reconciliation to God, justification by faith alone, and sanctification in the risen ChristIn Acts eight they’re preaching Jesus Christ and salvation through faith in Him.Reference 3:19 and 4:2 where the disobedience is unbelief.

Moon in Christ,

Your response and interpretation is weird and non-scriptural. Here is more scripture that specifically speaks about the gospel, and once again does not limit itself to your personal views:

Matthew 24:4-14

And Jesus answered them, "Take heed that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

This just another example of how scripture disagrees with your views.

God bless.

 

[twinc]

why not just type in Catholic/Lutheran conference in your search box and click and then click again and then come back here with your comments if indeed there can needs be any further comments - twinc

 

[Philthy]

If my eye makes me stumble I won’t pluck it out. Nor will I cut off my arm if it does the same. How many eyes do you have left, Paul? How many arms?

You missed Christ’s point Im afraid, MD. ** An eye, or an arm, or a leg or fingernail cannot cause you to sin.** They are merely instruments over which you have control. They are instruments through which one can sin. Sin comes from the heart, from within. Just like eating the wrong food is not a sin because “It is not what enters you…but what comes out from within you”…that is sinful.
Christ was merely trying to say how serious the avoidance of sin is: its more valuable than a body part. He used the language to get their attention. He’ll later explain that its even more important …

 

[paul_c]

why not just type in Catholic/Lutheran conference in your search box and click and then click again and then come back here with your comments if indeed there can needs be any further comments - twinc

This is far from ending all discussion on sola Fide. Moondweller sees Sola Fide differently than the Lutherans, for instance. In his personal theology, once you have faith, you are saved, regardless of future sin. He sees no value in personal morality and denies that the Sermon on the Mount is part of the Gospel, which he restricts to Jesus dying for our sins, thus saving everyone who believes that this act was redemptive for them personally.

 

[moondweller]

You missed Christ’s point Im afraid, MD. ** An eye, or an arm, or a leg or fingernail cannot cause you to sin.** They are merely instruments over which you have control. They are instruments through which one can sin. Sin comes from the heart, from within. Just like eating the wrong food is not a sin because “It is not what enters you…but what comes out from within you”…that is sinful.
Christ was merely trying to say how serious the avoidance of sin is: its more valuable than a body part. He used the language to get their attention. He’ll later explain that its even more important …

IOW, although you guys SAY you do EVERYTHING Christ said, you, in fact, don’t. That which is too much for you, you rationalize away. But yet you refuse to BELIEVE what He said about having “eternal life” and NOT coming into judgment and passing out of death into life through faith in Him (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24).

What you have here is a demonstration of the difference between works and grace. Those who think they can work for their salvation simply can’t (won’t) believe the power of God’s grace through the “finished” work of Another.
.

 

[clmowry]

This is far from ending all discussion on sola Fide. Moondweller sees Sola Fide differently than the Lutherans, for instance. In his personal theology, once you have faith, you are saved, regardless of future sin. He sees no value in personal morality and denies that the Sermon on the Mount is part of the Gospel, which he restricts to Jesus dying for our sins, thus saving everyone who believes that this act was redemptive for them personally.

I think this is an excellent point.

Like non-Catholic teaching on just about every “Christian” subject what “sola fide” means can pretty much run the gambit from MDs position to one that is only differentiated from Catholic teaching by insistence on the use of the term "sola fide”.

Unfortunately, to make matters worse, the definitions have a tendency to morph back and forth throughout the conversation depending upon what particular point someone is trying to defend at that moment.

In the case of sola fide some folks like to maintain that “works” are in no way necessary at one point in the conversation and then insist in the next sentence that faith without works was never real faith. And back and forth we go.

As wrong as I think MD is in his theology, at least he’s a one horse man and it sure looks like he’s going to ride it tell it drops.

Chuck

 

[moondweller]

Moon in Christ,

Your response and interpretation is weird and non-scriptural. Here is more scripture that specifically speaks about the gospel, and once again does not limit itself to your personal views:

Matthew 24:4-14

This just another example of how scripture disagrees with your views.

God bless.

Matt. 24:14 says, “…this gospel of the kingdom.” I already covered this in my previous post to you. We’re not in “the kingdom.” That kingdom was postponed and Christ is now building His church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, individually, through faith in Him alone.

Christ will usher in that Millennial Kingdom, on earth, at His second advent, literally fulfilling the ancient Hebrew prophets who prophesied of it. This church age was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets spoke of a glorious, earthly kingdom over which the Messiah would rule in peace and righteousness - not heaven. That’s why Christ still anticipates the time when He will sit on His glorious throne (Rev. 3:21), and the words spoken to Mary at the Annunciation will be fulfilled (Lk. 1:32-33).

All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us. You must rightly divide the Word of truth.

 

[moondweller]

So, Moondweller, Do you believe that all scripture is God breathed and therefore true?

I do.

If your answer is yes, then you need to be able to reconcile every scriptural passage with every other one, right?

No. All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us. One needs to rightly divide the Word of truth.

And that’s the rub. This is very easy for Catholics to do, because scripture is based on Catholic Tradition and is completely consistent with Catholic theology.

Catholic theology is rampant with contradiction. Forgiven but yet not forgiven; justified but yet not justified; redeemed but yet not redeemed; saved but yet not saved; saved by grace yet by works.

 

[Tomster]

Matt. 24:14 says, “…this gospel of the kingdom.” I already covered this in my previous post to you. We’re not in “the kingdom.” That kingdom was postponed and Christ is now building His church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, individually, through faith in Him alone.

Christ will usher in that Millennial Kingdom, on earth, at His second advent, literally fulfilling the ancient Hebrew prophets who prophesied of it. This church age was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets spoke of a glorious, earthly kingdom over which the Messiah would rule in peace and righteousness - not heaven. That’s why Christ still anticipates the time when He will sit on His glorious throne (Rev. 3:21), and the words spoken to Mary at the Annunciation will be fulfilled (Lk. 1:32-33).

All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us. You must rightly divide the Word of truth.

Moon,

Romans 8:38-39 completely refutes your postion. You are not saved.

 

[Tomster]

I think this is an excellent point.

Like non-Catholic teaching on just about every “Christian” subject what “sola fide” means can pretty much run the gambit from MDs position to one that is only differentiated from Catholic teaching by insistence on the use of the term "sola fide”.

Unfortunately, to make matters worse, the definitions have a tendency to morph back and forth throughout the conversation depending upon what particular point someone is trying to defend at that moment.

In the case of sola fide some folks like to maintain that “works” are in no way necessary at one point in the conversation and then insist in the next sentence that faith without works was never real faith. And back and forth we go.

As wrong as I think MD is in his theology, at least he’s a one horse man and it sure looks like he’s going to ride it tell it drops.

Chuck

The horse is already dead but MD just keeps kicking it.

 

[paul_c]

Matt. 24:14 says, “…this gospel of the kingdom.” I already covered this in my previous post to you. We’re not in “the kingdom.” That kingdom was postponed and Christ is now building His church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, individually, through faith in Him alone.

Christ will usher in that Millennial Kingdom, on earth, at His second advent, literally fulfilling the ancient Hebrew prophets who prophesied of it. This church age was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets spoke of a glorious, earthly kingdom over which the Messiah would rule in peace and righteousness - not heaven. That’s why Christ still anticipates the time when He will sit on His glorious throne (Rev. 3:21), and the words spoken to Mary at the Annunciation will be fulfilled (Lk. 1:32-33).

All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us. You must rightly divide the Word of truth.

Moondweller, this is truly amazing theology. You believe in scripture, but you have created a theology that lets you pick and choose which verses are about you so that you can conveniently discard anything that doesn’t fit your preconcieved notion about salvation. You are even more greatly decieved than I previously imagined.

 

[Tomster]

Moondweller, this is truly amazing theology. You believe in scripture, but you have created a theology that lets you pick and choose which verses are about you so that you can conveniently discard anything that doesn’t fit your preconcieved notion about salvation. You are even more greatly decieved than I previously imagined.

paul c,

MD’S situation is not that difficult to understand. His position is the logical outcome of what happens when the Protestant dogma of private interpretation is carried out to completion. He was dead in the water as soon as he decided that he could interpret Scriptures all by himself. Pride precedes the fall.

 

[Tomster]

Moon,

Romans 8:38-39 completely refutes your postion. You are not saved.

Moon,

Romans 8:38-39. Your interpretation please!

 

[Tomster]

I do.No. All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us. One needs to rightly divide the Word of truth.Catholic theology is rampant with contradiction. Forgiven but yet not forgiven; justified but yet not justified; redeemed but yet not redeemed; saved but yet not saved; saved by grace yet by works.

If you had completed the homework assignment I gave you quite a few weeks ago, you wouldn’t be as confused as you are now.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
So, Moondweller, Do you believe that all scripture is God breathed and therefore true?

Quote:
If your answer is yes, then you need to be able to reconcile every scriptural passage with every other one, right?

So conveniently, you can just assume that everything that you don’t agree with must have been meant for someone else. This has the same net effect as believing only the scripture you like. You attempt to bend the truth to your will, rather than bend your will to the truth.

Quote:
And that’s the rub. This is very easy for Catholics to do, because scripture is based on Catholic Tradition and is completely consistent with Catholic theology.

There are no contradictions within Catholic theology . Those things only seem like contradictions because of your errant preconcieved notions abotu once saved, always saved…

• Previous sins are forgiven in baptism and through the sacrament of reconciliation if you are truly repentant and are attempting not to sin again… However, future sins are not forgiven. God does not want you to sin so he does not condone it. This notion of forgiveness of future sin is a misunderstanding on your part.
• similarly, you are justified, redeemed, and saved when you are baptized and this puts you in the state of grace, However, if you sin , you fall from grace and will need to be justified, redeemed and saved again.through the sacrament of reconcilation.
• Finally, we are saved by Faith through grace, it is true, but we must follow Christ and that means carrying out the works he gives us.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by moondweller
Matt. 24:14 says, “…this gospel of the kingdom.” I already covered this in my previous post to you. We’re not in “the kingdom.” That kingdom was postponed and Christ is now building His church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, individually, through faith in Him alone.

While I agree with your conclusion, help me make the connection you see with this verse:
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[moondweller]

Moon,

Romans 8:38-39. Your interpretation please!

The problem is, unlike Paul, you’re not convinced.

Do you know why Paul doesn’t mention sin there, Tom? He bore them ALL in His body on the cross and died TO them, once for all - according to the teachings of Paul (and Peter). Not even sin can separate the believer from “the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

That’s right, “which is in Christ Jesus,” not you. Salvation is about CHRIST - not you. Paul was completely Christ centered with his gospel message which was to be BELIEVED.

Rom. 8:38-39 is written to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers - those who have believed in Christ. NOTHING can separate them from God’s love. NOTHING! And I’m one of those believers who cannot be separated from the love of God.