Faith alone or not?

[bona_fides_1]

IOW, although you guys SAY you do EVERYTHING Christ said, you, in fact, don’t. That which is too much for you, you rationalize away. But yet you refuse to BELIEVE what He said about having “eternal life” and NOT coming into judgment and passing out of death into life through faith in Him (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24).

What you have here is a demonstration of the difference between works and grace. Those who think they can work for their salvation simply can’t (won’t) believe the power of God’s grace through the “finished” work of Another.
.

I think you need to clarify this some. When you say “you guys” do you mean us individual people as if we make some claim to being impeccable or do you mean The Catholic Church and her claims to be the fullness of faith? No Catholic here would dare to claim he or she is impeccable and without fault and a perfect saint on earth yet. But The Church absolutely claims that she retains the fullness of faith and teaching for what God has deemed proper to reveal to her from the Deposit of Faith at this point in History. We can anticipate greater more insights as the Holy Spirit advances us into deeper understandings of the same truth over the centuries and millenium but we are confident that no prior teaching will be removed or deprecated - only expanded on in depth of meaning.

What we really have here is MD having a very narrow and literal view of scripture. You simply lack any reading comprehension beyond a pure literal sense. You can’t comprehend that there are all manner of literary and even speaking styles used by the apostles and Jesus himself. You can not discern the fundamental difference between allegory, hyperbola, apocalyptic styles for example. This is because you lack any apostolic teaching framework and lack all context as well as the range of educational exposure to basic literary styles (apparently).

Since you outright reject the apostolic interpretation of scripture or any interpretation but your own you simply refuse to give quarter to anything but a narrow fundamental view of english words. Personally I think you are afraid and hiding so you don’t have to come out of your simple world view. Either that or else actually mocking Christians by using scripture to mock all religion. Are you really just a troll or someone that enjoys bringing attention to himself by being stubborn??? I am starting to have doubts about your character or motives.

For example your claim that no one is judged if they are a believer is completely blind to the same effect if one is loosed from their sins by apostolic absolution (an apostolic authority has judged in place of God and released a sin by the power’s Christ has vested in him). You simply can’t “see” that divine judgement is in fact avoided - you just don’t like the means by which judgement is avoided since you find any notion of apostolic authority abhorrent to you since you don’t trust the church and trust only your own private views. That’s a pity MD and tells a lot about you. Like so many Protestants you come from a hermeneutic of suspicion and protest rather than from a rational and apostolic framework.

MD, what do you belief in first - Christ or your own infallability? You do not seem at all inclined to listen to even persuasive arguments at all that repeatedly point out the flaw in your reasoning.

Don’t think for a minute that you do not believe in works since you do use every mental maneuver and work imaginable just to hold to your belief that you are in possession of grace. But you can’t account for 100’s of scripture verses that you orphan every time you give an exhibition of what you believe. That’s the real problem here MD - you have constructed a “cozy belief” that has little to do with true Christian belief as practised by the early Church and those closest to Christ. You have invented your own Christianity - just another church of one among millions of other Protestants who do the same thing. You are unique in that you have studied it more than most Protestants and have developed your own private dogma based on rejecting Catholic principals with one-off literal proof texts that can’t stand on their own against other verses.

BF

 

[Tomster]

While I agree with your conclusion, help me make the connection you see with this verse:
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

paul c.,

Of the ten items St. Paul says cannot separate us from the love God, all of them, without exception, are forces external to the individual. We, as individuals, cannot control any of these forces. God, in his love for us, has made the process of salvation so secure that he will allow no external force to disrupt its progress and completion.

Yet St. Paul, while portryaing God as immovable, does not include internal forces - forces from within the individual - among those things that cannot separate the individual from the love of God. Nowhere does St. Paul teach that the individual cannot choose to take himself out of the salvation plan of God. Moreover, St. Paul does not include things such as fornication, adultery, idolatry, and stealing in the list of Romans 8:38-39 (i.e., St. Paul does not say, “Neither fornication, nor adultery, neither idolatry nor stealing . . . can separate us from the love of God”) simply because has stated previously in passages like 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21, and Ephesians 5:5 that these sins are the very reason one could lose their salvation.

 

[Tomster]

The problem is, unlike Paul, you’re not convinced.

Do you know why Paul doesn’t mention sin there, Tom? He bore them ALL in His body on the cross and died TO them, once for all - according to the teachings of Paul (and Peter). Not even sin can separate the believer from “the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

That’s right, “which is in Christ Jesus,” not you. Salvation is about CHRIST - not you. Paul was completely Christ centered with his gospel message which was to be BELIEVED.

Rom. 8:38-39 is written to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers - those who have believed in Christ. NOTHING can separate them from God’s love. NOTHING! And I’m one of those believers who cannot be separated from the love of God.

Moon,

Thanks for airing out your mistakes for all to see.

You have just been refuted in post # 221.

 

[Tomster]

I think you need to clarify this some. When you say “you guys” do you mean us individual people as if we make some claim to being impeccable or do you mean The Catholic Church and her claims to be the fullness of faith? No Catholic here would dare to claim he or she is impeccable and without fault and a perfect saint on earth yet. But The Church absolutely claims that she retains the fullness of faith and teaching for what God has deemed proper to reveal to her from the Deposit of Faith at this point in History. We can anticipate greater more insights as the Holy Spirit advances us into deeper understandings of the same truth over the centuries and millenium but we are confident that no prior teaching will be removed or deprecated - only expanded on in depth of meaning.

What we really have here is MD having a very narrow and literal view of scripture. You simply lack any reading comprehension beyond a pure literal sense. You can’t comprehend that there are all manner of literary and even speaking styles used by the apostles and Jesus himself. You can not discern the fundamental difference between allegory, hyperbola, apocalyptic styles for example. This is because you lack any apostolic teaching framework and lack all context as well as the range of educational exposure to basic literary styles (apparently).

Since you outright reject the apostolic interpretation of scripture or any interpretation but your own you simply refuse to give quarter to anything but a narrow fundamental view of english words. Personally I think you are afraid and hiding so you don’t have to come out of your simple world view. Either that or else actually mocking Christians by using scripture to mock all religion. Are you really just a troll or someone that enjoys bringing attention to himself by being stubborn??? I am starting to have doubts about your character or motives.

For example your claim that no one is judged if they are a believer is completely blind to the same effect if one is loosed from their sins by apostolic absolution (an apostolic authority has judged in place of God and released a sin by the power’s Christ has vested in him). You simply can’t “see” that divine judgement is in fact avoided - you just don’t like the means by which judgement is avoided since you find any notion of apostolic authority abhorrent to you since you don’t trust the church and trust only your own private views. That’s a pity MD and tells a lot about you. Like so many Protestants you come from a hermeneutic of suspicion and protest rather than from a rational and apostolic framework.

MD, what do you belief in first - Christ or your own infallability? You do not seem at all inclined to listen to even persuasive arguments at all that repeatedly point out the flaw in your reasoning.

Don’t think for a minute that you do not believe in works since you do use every mental maneuver and work imaginable just to hold to your belief that you are in possession of grace. But you can’t account for 100’s of scripture verses that you orphan every time you give an exhibition of what you believe. That’s the real problem here MD - you have constructed a “cozy belief” that has little to do with true Christian belief as practised by the early Church and those closest to Christ. You have invented your own Christianity - just another church of one among millions of other Protestants who do the same thing. You are unique in that you have studied it more than most Protestants and have developed your own private dogma based on rejecting Catholic principals with one-off literal proof texts that can’t stand on their own against other verses.

BF

What we really have here is Moon misinterpeting Scriptures - AGAIN!

 

[Tomster]

While I agree with your conclusion, help me make the connection you see with this verse:
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is also clear from surrounding passages that St. Paul does not believe that the individual is immune from falling away. For example, two chapters earlier, addressing baptised Christians in Romans 6:12-13 he says, “Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation - but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” The dying St. Paul has in view here is the same as that in Romans 6:23: “for the wages of sin is death.” Later in Romans 11:22, St. Paul writes to the Gentile Christians : “Consider, therefore, the kindness and sterness of God: sterness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in kindness. Otherwise, you will be cut off.”

 

[Philthy]

IOW, although you guys SAY you do EVERYTHING Christ said, you, in fact, don’t. That which is too much for you, you rationalize away. But yet you refuse to BELIEVE what He said about having “eternal life” and NOT coming into judgment and passing out of death into life through faith in Him (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24).

What you have here is a demonstration of the difference between works and grace. Those who think they can work for their salvation simply can’t (won’t) believe the power of God’s grace through the “finished” work of Another.
.

• Apparently you cant constructively refute my position except by ignoring it and returning to your mantra based, IMO, upon your understanding of part of what Christ taught and not all of what Christ taught. This behavior is similar to what I predicted certain unnamed individuals would do…
• In addition, you implicitly attribute to me something I never said (“I do everything Christ said”), and I confidently assert no one else said, despite your implication. Please don’t do that.
• What you call works, I call a part of living faith in Christ. A faith that calls us to walk in the good works that He has prepared for us. Afterall, MD, what good is it to say you believe when you dont actually live that faith by good works - can that faith save you?? Faith alone, if it does not have works is…dead, and a dead faith doesnt save anyone.(cf James 2).
• Lastly, please don’t mistakenly characterize me as refusing “to BELIEVE what He said about having “eternal life” and NOT coming into judgment and passing out of death into life through faith in Him”. Your understanding of works and grace, salvation and eternal life, faith and following Christ and which parts of Scripture apply to us and which don’t, are simply not in alignment with my understanding of what **all of **the NT says regarding those topics. You are apparently confusing my disagreeing with YOU as being a disagreement with “what He said” without any authority, credibility or warrant whatsoever for doing so.

Blessings

 

[bona_fides_1]

Moon,

Thanks for airing out your mistakes for all to see.

You have just been refuted in post # 221.

So far I have scored at least 10 knock out blows against Moon’s point of view and ZERO deflections or strikes for Moon. He’s just being stubborn and trying to hit below the belt and can’t even land one that way.

It’s getting to be rather pathetic to watch to tell the truth. It used to be quite satisfying to help a Protestant learn a deeper dimension of faith and then see the light bulb go off and gain a convert. But I am really thinking that Moon is here just to play rope-a-dope to get attention and a social outlet. He’s been doing this for about 2 years now - same old tired arguments. It seems to me that he can’t get anyone to join his church so he comes here to CAF to get an audience. Here he gets people who will at least take him seriously enough to waste their time criticizing his views so he can preach from cyberspace and fine tune his dogmas and counter-arguments.

MD kind of reminds me of the black knight in the Monty Python movie where Author progressively lops of all his arms and legs as he taunts him after each loss of limb for only inflicting mere “flesh wounds”. To feel relevant the Black Knight continues to taunt Author as he departs to leave him in harmless and in immobilized frustration to play with himself . I am thinking we should do the same here…

Monty Python - Black Knight Fight (warning some graphic scenes)

BF

 

[paul_c]

paul c.,

Of the ten items St. Paul says cannot separate us from the love God, all of them, without exception, are forces external to the individual. We, as individuals, cannot control any of these forces. God, in his love for us, has made the process of salvation so secure that he will allow no external force to disrupt its progress and completion.

Yet St. Paul, while portryaing God as immovable, does not include internal forces - forces from within the individual - among those things that cannot separate the individual from the love of God. Nowhere does St. Paul teach that the individual cannot choose to take himself out of the salvation plan of God. Moreover, St. Paul does not include things such as fornication, adultery, idolatry, and stealing in the list of Romans 8:38-39 (i.e., St. Paul does not say, “Neither fornication, nor adultery, neither idolatry nor stealing . . . can separate us from the love of God”) simply because has stated previously in passages like 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21, and Ephesians 5:5 that these sins are the very reason one could lose their salvation.

Thank you for the clarification. I wasn’t sure where you were going with that. I personally like to draw from Romans 2 to make this point:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

 

[Tomster]

Thank you for the clarification. I wasn’t sure where you were going with that. I personally like to draw from Romans 2 to make this point:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Amen to that my brother!

 

[paul_c]

The problem is, unlike Paul, you’re not convinced.

Do you know why Paul doesn’t mention sin there, Tom? He bore them ALL in His body on the cross and died TO them, once for all - according to the teachings of Paul (and Peter).

I think your wrong. I think the reason he doesn’t mention sin here is that he ahs already made it abundantly clear in the second chapter of Romans that sin does indeed matter:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Not even sin can separate the believer from “the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

Moondweller,
This is another example of you making up scripture. Where does it say :
"Not even sin can separate the believer from “the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

That’s right, “which is in Christ Jesus,” not you. Salvation is about CHRIST - not you. Paul was completely Christ centered with his gospel message which was to be BELIEVED.

This doesn’t ring true and is inconsistent with what you have personally stated before… Your personal salvation is made possible by Christ but it is also about you, by definition. Even you have a criteria that the individual must follow to be saved. In your case, it is belief in the saving power of Jesus. Without that, you can’t be saved, correct?

Rom. 8:38-39 is written to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers - those who have believed in Christ. NOTHING can separate them from God’s love. NOTHING! And I’m one of those believers who cannot be separated from the love of God.

You can not be separated from the love of God by any external power, but you can choose to separate yourself from God through sin. Remember, sin is the voluntary, conscious decision to do something that is against God’s will for you - i.e. separation.
And remember, Romans 2 was written to the same people that Romans 8 was written to.

 

[Tomster]

The problem is, unlike Paul, you’re not convinced.

Do you know why Paul doesn’t mention sin there, Tom? He bore them ALL in His body on the cross and died TO them, once for all - according to the teachings of Paul (and Peter). Not even sin can separate the believer from “the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

That’s right, “which is in Christ Jesus,” not you. Salvation is about CHRIST - not you. Paul was completely Christ centered with his gospel message which was to be BELIEVED.

Rom. 8:38-39 is written to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers - those who have believed in Christ. NOTHING can separate them from God’s love. NOTHING! And I’m one of those believers who cannot be separated from the love of God.

Moon,

Our Blessed Savior has told us in Sacred Scripture that “If you wish to a disciple of mine you must pick up your cross, every day, and follow me.” That is a condition of discipleship. There is no getting around it. Jesus said it. I believe it. As individual believers, we all have a personal, tailored made cross just for us.

Now, think about this if you would.

Why do you suppose Jesus gave us this condition for discipleship?

Was it just figurative language that He was using or are we to take Him at His word - literally?

Why does He want us to carry our own personal cross?

Where are we going when we follow Him carrying our cross?

What is the purpose of carrying our own personal cross?

Why do we have to follow Him carrying our own cross?

How did carrying His own cross end up?

When you woke up this morning did you make a conscious decision to fullfill this condition of discipleship? Remember, He said that we are to pick it up EVERY DAY and follow him.

What is the logical result of carrying our cross?

What did Jesus’ death accomplish?

If we are true disciples and carry our own cross following Him, what will that accomplish?

For once in your life, man, use the gift of reason that God gave you!

 

[Pax]

…
…
What you have here is a demonstration of the difference between works and grace. Those who think they can work for their salvation simply can’t (won’t) believe the power of God’s grace through the “finished” work of Another.
.

Moon in Christ,

The difference between works and grace is no different than the difference between faith and grace. Grace enables faith and grace enables the good works that the Father prepared for us per Eph 2:8-10.

You already know better than to accuse us of “working” or “earning” our salvation, but you cling to this straw man argument in spite of the scriptural truths that we have laid out before you.

God bless.

 

[Tomster]

So far I have scored at least 10 knock out blows against Moon’s point of view and ZERO deflections or strikes for Moon. He’s just being stubborn and trying to hit below the belt and can’t even land one that way.

It’s getting to be rather pathetic to watch to tell the truth. It used to be quite satisfying to help a Protestant learn a deeper dimension of faith and then see the light bulb go off and gain a convert. But I am really thinking that Moon is here just to play rope-a-dope to get attention and a social outlet. He’s been doing this for about 2 years now - same old tired arguments. It seems to me that he can’t get anyone to join his church so he comes here to CAF to get an audience. Here he gets people who will at least take him seriously enough to waste their time criticizing his views so he can preach from cyberspace and fine tune his dogmas and counter-arguments.

MD kind of reminds me of the black knight in the Monty Python movie where Author progressively lops of all his arms and legs as he taunts him after each loss of limb for only inflicting mere “flesh wounds”. To feel relevant the Black Knight continues to taunt Author as he departs to leave him in harmless and in immobilized frustration to play with himself . I am thinking we should do the same here…

Monty Python - Black Knight Fight (warning some graphic scenes)

BF

bona fides,

We must remember innocent lurkers who are sincerely searching for the truth. I agree with your assessment of Moon’s motives. There is one other reason why I am glad that Moon continues to dispense his tripe on these forums. If for no other reason it forces Catholics to hone their skills, do their homework and learn their faith as we are obliged to do.

 

[Tomster]

So far I have scored at least 10 knock out blows against Moon’s point of view and ZERO deflections or strikes for Moon. He’s just being stubborn and trying to hit below the belt and can’t even land one that way.

It’s getting to be rather pathetic to watch to tell the truth. It used to be quite satisfying to help a Protestant learn a deeper dimension of faith and then see the light bulb go off and gain a convert. But I am really thinking that Moon is here just to play rope-a-dope to get attention and a social outlet. He’s been doing this for about 2 years now - same old tired arguments. It seems to me that he can’t get anyone to join his church so he comes here to CAF to get an audience. Here he gets people who will at least take him seriously enough to waste their time criticizing his views so he can preach from cyberspace and fine tune his dogmas and counter-arguments.

MD kind of reminds me of the black knight in the Monty Python movie where Author progressively lops of all his arms and legs as he taunts him after each loss of limb for only inflicting mere “flesh wounds”. To feel relevant the Black Knight continues to taunt Author as he departs to leave him in harmless and in immobilized frustration to play with himself . I am thinking we should do the same here…

Monty Python - Black Knight Fight (warning some graphic scenes)

BF

“Playing rope-a-dope again!” You got me.

 

[Pax]

Matt. 24:14 says, “…this gospel of the kingdom.” I already covered this in my previous post to you. We’re not in “the kingdom.” That kingdom was postponed and Christ is now building His church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, individually, through faith in Him alone.

Christ will usher in that Millennial Kingdom, on earth, at His second advent, literally fulfilling the ancient Hebrew prophets who prophesied of it. This church age was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets spoke of a glorious, earthly kingdom over which the Messiah would rule in peace and righteousness - not heaven. That’s why Christ still anticipates the time when He will sit on His glorious throne (Rev. 3:21), and the words spoken to Mary at the Annunciation will be fulfilled (Lk. 1:32-33).

All Scripture is written FOR us, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT us. You must rightly divide the Word of truth.

Moon in Christ,

Your answer is an utter fiction and misunderstanding of scripture. Jesus did not come to set up an earthly kingdom during his life time. We know this from Jesus own words to Pilate along with scores of other scriptural clues. Moreover, Satan attempted to persuade Jesus to have an earthly kingdom when Jesus was fasting for forty days. If Jesus was interested in an earthly kingdom, it would have been made clear in that passage. But no…Jesus rejects the entire idea of an earthly kingdom in that instance everywhere else. In John 6 the Jews wished to make Jesus their earthly king, and he rejected that overture.

Your interpretation of all of this is terribly flawed, and you have not in anyway answered or refuted what has been given to you.

The millenial kingdom referred to in Revelation manifests itself in the body of Christ on earth which is his Church. The love of the Lord and his grace reigns in the hearts, minds, souls, and deeds of those who love and follow the Lord. That is the meaning of the millenial kingdom referred to in Revelation.

God bless.

 

[moondweller]

I think you need to clarify this some. When you say “you guys” do you mean us individual people as if we make some claim to being impeccable or do you mean The Catholic Church and her claims to be the fullness of faith? No Catholic here would dare to claim he or she is impeccable and without fault and a perfect saint on earth yet.

Yet??? That’s right, you continue to strive for it (albeit impossible while yet in these unredeemed bodies) in hopes that you’ll be accepted, not in the Beloved (Eph. 1:6), but in your own righteousness. That’s not the gospel of Divine grace, BF, but a salvation based on works. However, it’s revealed that it’s the “ungodly” God justifies apart from works and credits his FAITH to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:4-6; cf. Gen. 15:6).

You never answered me in respect to: John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Do you, personally, BELIEVE His words concerning what happens to the one who has believed God’s word concerning Christ, BF, or do you consider it BS? Or are you going to rationalize it away in the manner of Clinton by saying, “Well, it depends on what you mean by the word believe.”

What we really have here is MD having a very narrow and literal view of scripture.

Yes, it’s a matter of hermeneutics, not convenience. Contrary to the allegorical method of interpretation (hermeneutics, adopted by Catholicism) where the readers themselves make the Scriptures conform to anything they wish them to say, thereby conforming them to their own preconceived ideas, religious doctrines and personal beliefs.

You simply lack any reading comprehension beyond a pure literal sense.

It has nothing to do with one’s “reading comprehension,” but rather allowing the Scriptures to retain their rightful authority, being the Word of God and not the word of men. Thereby refusing to corrupt His Word. It’s a matter of allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

Oh my, what a novel idea!!! You mean God “literally” has something to say, something to communicate to man? And He’s not dependent on certain men with great “reading comprehension” to search out and decipher the “hidden meanings” buried within the Scriptures???

You can’t comprehend that there are all manner of literary and even speaking styles used by the apostles and Jesus himself. You can not discern the fundamental difference between allegory, hyperbola, apocalyptic styles for example. This is because you lack any apostolic teaching framework and lack all context as well as the range of educational exposure to basic literary styles (apparently).

To the contrary, a literal hermeneutics (method of interpretation) recognizes all these styles but does not randomly force them onto the Scriptures. Scriptures itself lets the reader know if what it is saying is allegorical, prophetic or even hyperbole. It is not the authority of the reader to decide, but the context itself.

Since you outright reject the apostolic interpretation of scripture

That’s an assertion.

or any interpretation but your own you simply refuse to give quarter to anything but a narrow fundamental view of english words.

That’s prejudice

Personally I think you are afraid and hiding so you don’t have to come out of your simple world view. Either that or else actually mocking Christians by using scripture to mock all religion. Are you really just a troll or someone that enjoys bringing attention to himself by being stubborn??? I am starting to have doubts about your character or motives.

That’s judgmental, prejudice and assertive.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Yet??? …That’s not the gospel of Divine grace, BF, but a salvation based on works. However, it’s revealed that it’s the “ungodly” God justifies apart from works and credits his FAITH to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:4-6; cf. Gen. 15:6).

Have you read any of St. Paul’s verses (that you cite) in the context of the whole book? Paul was constantly warning about losing his reward after he labored for God and falling away. There is no gospel of “Divine Grace” in the bible MD - that’s a new construct YOU came up with. Give us the anthology and list of scripture verses that constitute this “Divine Grace” gospel that you have dreamt up? What were you pontificating about earlier about “context” and hermeneutics? Cure they self Doctor.

You are playing ignorant again about Catholic belief. You know that Catholics have many saints who gained perfection in their sanctification while here on earth by COOPERATING with God’s grace. It is learning how to cooperative and walk with God that you misequate with human works. These are supernatural works that are tied to our sanctification. Most Catholics probably are perfected in purgatory and not here on earth.

You never answered me in respect to: John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Do you, personally, BELIEVE His words concerning what happens to the one who has believed God’s word concerning Christ, BF, or do you consider it BS?

I did answer this - you just don’t like the answer I gave you since you are trying to maneuver the argument into a straw man that is based on your rather juvenile understanding of what Catholics actually believe.

I consider the way you frame the question BS - its based on an irrational assumption and a disordered view of what belief constitutes.

I already told you that the semantic of “belief” incorporates all the conditionals that Christ attaches to a true follower of His. One of those is that those who perfectly love Him will not sin anymore and wil obey all he commands. Clearly such a one will not be judged for loving Christ perfectly. But another thing Christ told us is that the disciples have the power to forgive sins so if one is less than perfect in their love of Christ and falls into sin one can again repent and be forgiven here on earth by apostolic absolution – provided you really beleive that he has the authority to give that power to an apostolic successor. If you don’t beleive that they you are not a true believer nor a lover of Christ. But the true believer will escape judgement because Christ has already forgiven these repented sins. This is the only way that this scripture can work - unless you are perfect in every way and Christlike, Are you claiming to be perfect in every way?

"Yes, it’s a matter of hermeneutics, not convenience. Contrary to the allegorical method of interpretation (hermeneutics, adopted by Catholicism) where the readers themselves make the Scriptures conform to anything they wish them to say, thereby conforming them to their own preconceived ideas, religious doctrines and personal beliefs.It has nothing to do with one’s “reading comprehension,” but rather allowing the Scriptures to retain their rightful authority, being the Word of God and not the word of men. Thereby refusing to corrupt His Word. It’s a matter of allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

That’s laughable MD. I have never seen such corruption of scripture as from you. You take it to an art form.

Please point to where scripture claims to have any authority outside of “the pillar and foundation of truth” - the Church. You are inventing things and can’t.

You simply are ignorant of the context that the scripture were conceived in - they flowed out of the church and were ALWAYS read and taught in the context of the mass in the early church. In the early Church one could not get physical access to scripture unless you believed in real presence and were taught that secret mystery to gain access to them. Read some church history for heaven’s sake. I recommend “The Mass of the Early Christians” by Mike Aquilina

FYI, Catholics first use literal as the primary sense of scripture. But it is also taken in a context of the apostolic teaching framework. That requires a knowledge of the idioms of the day as well as that passed down apostolic teaching tradition of course. You lack that context entirely so you have to invent a context from a fallable read and construct speculative context based on rather imaginative but gravely disordered personal ideas. Frankly, it’s impossible for you to ever get scripture correct without getting it from a Catholic or reading a Catholic work. Catholicism is the only single faith on the planet that can teach all of scripture, orphan none of it and contradict none of it. It’s mathematically impossible for you to independently reverse engineer the true Christian faith from a personal read of scripture - you will aways miss something or orphan some essential teaching. The teaching tradition is the only key that can unlock it all and make it all work. This prevents the Simon Magus types from hijacking Christianity by simply stealing the scripture - like the Protestants attempt very foolishly. Every single time you bring forward a new theory or personal doctrine you will orphan some other verse or contradict some other verse. You have admitted that you are fallable afterall. This is how we know heresy - its easy to spot by what it leaves unanswered or orphaned in scripture.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Oh my, what a novel idea!!! You mean God “literally” has something to say, something to communicate to man? And He’s not dependent on certain men with great “reading comprehension” to search out and decipher the “hidden meanings” buried within the Scriptures???To the contrary, a literal hermeneutics (method of interpretation) recognizes all these styles but does not randomly force them onto the Scriptures. Scriptures itself lets the reader know if what it is saying is allegorical, prophetic or even hyperbole. It is not the authority of the reader to decide, but the context itself.That’s an assertion.That’s prejudiceThat’s judgmental, prejudice and assertive.

God could have just wrote scripture in the clouds or in granite on the side of a mountain if He wanted to. He elected to use MEN to deliver and TEACH scripture. There is not a single commandment from Christ to write a single pen stroke of NT scripture. This was the CHURCH who did this at the insistence of the Holy Spirit - they were all Catholics MD. EVERYONE of them believed in real presence, the apostolic succession via laying on of hands, the forgivness of sins etc. Don’t believe me - again read some history.

The only prejudice and judgmentalism being expressed here is your utter contempt for Catholic teaching. Your positions are unsustainable by reason or by scripture. You are persecuting truth MD. Time to give up the charade and start learning the truth.

BF

 

[ncgolf]

You never answered me in respect to: John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Believe includes obedience not mere mental assent as you imply. If you obey you perservere … your obedience is your faith … your fiat.

Keep reading unto John 5:29 “and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Your interpretation does not last even to the end of Chapter 5 let alone the rest of the Bible. Faith is never alone.

 

[twb1621]

.

**Oh no, not again. You avoid the verses I present to you with absolutely no acknowledgment that you have read them let alone explain what they mean to you. **

*TWB, how many of your eyes have you plucked out? How many arms cut off?

With all due respect, your question my brother, expresses your inability to properly understand the lessons of the Inspired Word of God and the teachings of our Lord. One’s hand or one’s foot or one’s arms or one’s eyes can not “cause” one to sin, but one’s mind conceives of sin and one’s heart desires sin. The message is expressing the severity of sin and how cutting off an arm or plucking out an eye would be less of a penalty than the consequences of the sin.
*I “accept” all the teachings of Christ. But not ALL His teachings directly apply to me. Think for a moment… If you are truly devoted to Christ and the Inspired Word of God, you would be eager to learn the truth AND what your erred in, regardless of where that Truth takes you, and you would desire to be able to relate to all of scripture, not claim there are teachings of Christ that do not pertain to you. Frankly, I don’t imagine He would be pleased to hear anyone say that considering the sacrifice He made for us. But if this is what you believe, you are reading dead words instead of hearing the Word and the meanings, teachings, directions they offer you.
One who rejects part of Christ’s Word rejects all of Christ’s word. All of scripture holds direction for each human being. If I am wrong, please show me in scripture where it says these verses I presented you do not apply to you or show me that they do not apply to everyone for that matter… or even that one can selectively choose from scripture what he or she chooses to relate to. That sounds like something a mere man would come up with to me.

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continued next post (again)…