Faith alone or not?

[guanophore]

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you have peace? Do you have assurance that you will spend eternity with God? Why does the catholic church say its a sin to have this assurance? The Apostles all had it. The Bible tells us we can have assurance too.

We have peace, if indeed we are justified by faith. A hopeful confidence of salvation is the birthright of a Christian. The Apostles taught that presumption is a sin. The Apostles had this hopeful confidence, and that we are to leave the judgement of ourselves to God.

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.

What you are espousing, the sin of presumtpion, equates to pronouncing judgement before the time.

 

[guanophore]

Our assurance of salvation rests on the clear promise of God’s Word.

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

John 3:36 says, “He that believes has everlasting life, and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”

Indeed, His promise is reliable. However, while we walk this earth, the possiblity always exists that we will stop believing in Him, in whch case, we are no longer “in Christ”, which is a requirement to be saved. This is why the ergos hagios are so important. They serve the function to keep us in HIs grace.

We enter into eternal life at baptism, and by His grace, we may remain in that life. And by our disobedience, we can also leave that life. We can throw away our birthright, and fail to be united to the heavenly inheritance that has been preserved inviolable for us by the HS.

 

[guanophore]

You fail to comprehend the context of that abounding "grace."  That "grace" (not so-called dispensed "*graces*")

That abounding grace is for the power of salvation through faith in Christ alone, not for giving men power to merit righteousness through law (commandment) keeping (works):

Both things are true. It is grace that enables us to walk according to the commandments. I think you do misunderstand the nature of “merit”, though. It is also translated in the NT as “reward”. When we walk according to the works He has prepared beforehand, we increase in grace, and His character is formed in us. We become that which He has declared us by grace to be.

The CC does not teach that God’s grace “merit righteousness through the law”. This is a misrepresentation of Catholic soteriology.

We have the power to walk in righteousness by the same grace that saves us. These are works that we do because “God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure”.

Hence, salvation and eternal life must be from another Source altogether. That being the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, gifted freely through faith in Him alone - according to the Scriptures: Rom. 6:23.

For some reason you seem to erroneously believe that the CC believes or teaches otherwise. I wonder why it is so important for you to cling to these untruths?

 

[guanophore]

Why not go to the theopneustos verse itself? Does it say “must???” Thereby implying an eternal consequence; which would be a reversal of a Divine creation.

No, MD, this is your invention, not the Truth.

Falling from grace most certainly has eternal consequences, but there is no “reversal of Divine creation.” Throwing away one’s birthright does not make one “unborn”.

Why do you seek my opinion rather than the Word of God? Your answer is right there in the written Word of God.

Because it is clear that your ideas are not consistent with the Word of God. You pick and choose the verses you need to form and support your theology, and abrogate the rest.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Boy, were my ears burning these past few hours! Acknowledging my stupidity is my duty and nobody else’s.

And I will take it that nobody (non-Catholics) can answer my post about Catholic vs. Proetstant teachings on page 30… I will continue to think that until I am proven wrong.

And enough with all of this Bible-slinging event. Seriously, it is getting old. It is quite clear you are not going to believe us because we are lowly Catholics who know nothing more than what our Church tells them to believe.
I have heard that one too. The saint verses are taken way out of context anyway in comparison to the previous statement about saints and sinners.

Calvin,
I ask one person one question and asked kindly for no elaboration SO THAT they will not fall into a trap. I get two responses from two people and they both elaborated and both fell into the trap. He thinks is righteous and a saint and you had an ever so subtle implication that Catholics have no reverence for God in our confessionals. I guess you completely missed the verses where is says to confess to one another. Hmm… I smell hyprocrisy. You can look for yourself. I confess to God and priests. Sometimes at the same time. I am not at all inferring that the priest is God but you can do your research.

Moondweller,
Sorry if you were offended but I was taking my definition of the word. Trivializing in my dictionary say “to make something less important, significant or complex than it really is.” When someone claims (about Our Lord’s death) that all they have to do is believe it, confess to God a few times and nothing more, they are trivializing it. Same with salvation, works, the cross and other things. That is the definition I have been taking it as. What is your definition? There is my proof. Do not accuse me of having no proof because you will turn red in the face when I prove you wrong.

There is no humility in your idea of forgiveness. Humility is the beginning of wisdom. If Luther had not taken the Book of Wisdom out, perhaps you might know that. That is not your fault though. Really kind of not Luther’s either because he consciously thought he was doing the right thing but at the same time it was (moot point).

I do not think you realize we are on the same page with Jesus’ death. Yes, there is nothing temporal about it. It is eternal once and for all. You missed my point though. I was probably not clear so here I go again. Through the Mass, God makes this sacrifice present eternally. A very beautiful thing to think about really. God is eternal. Why should His gifts to us not be?

Anyway, we have disagreements on sin. Sin is a separation from God, right? That is a pretty standard definition. But here is where we differ (keep in mind I stating what the Church teaches because I believe it to be Truth)… Sin is and starts in the soul and always will. My soul is not separate from my body and vice-verse. If I kicked someone, I would be sinning, body and soul. If I lied, same thing. External things (war, famine, poverty, recessions, etc…) do not happen if they had not already happened in the soul.

I am glad that you feel content with yourself. Really, I am. I wish I can be. But not a single person (especially Christian) should think that, especially that they are a saint. I am sorry but you are wrong with that. You cannot even admit that you sin in your soul. Those verses on forgiveness are thrown way out of context and proportion. I will give it a shot. Acts 10:43 says we will receive forgiveness through His name. It never says as soon as we believe. It only says through Whom. Acts 13:38 says forgiveness is being proclaimed. Nothing more than that, a simple proclamation. Acts 26:18 it say MAY obtain forgiveness. The word “MAY” should help with that. Col 1:14 only says we have redemption in Him, not an automatic forgiveness. These verses stress the Catholic idea of forgiveness. You will probably disagree with me on this because you are already a saint.

This is why I do not like using the Bible in disputes because we could write ten books per verse on the disagreements about it.

Have you ever heard the phrase, “Sinners think they are saints; saints know they are sinners?” The foolish think they are wise; the wise know they are foolish. We are all sinners in the soul. By your account, animals can sin also because they are only in the flesh and they kill all the time.

About your last question, I am not in agreement that you are not trivializing. You are a saint because you believe that Christ died for you. This is the epitome of trivializing.

 

[moondweller]

Well put; you truly have a love for God’s word and I look forward to fellowship with you once we are absent from our bodies and present with the Lord.

And I with you dear brother.

Do you believe in the “catching away of the church” as I do

I certainly do. I am Dispensational in my theology, hence, Premil./Pretrib.

and I believe we are near the very end of the end times; which means I believe if we live another 20 years we may not even see physical death.

No one can know for sure. But Israel, against all odds, is back as a nation which is required for the end time events to occur, and as the ancient Hebrew prophets predicted. And technology is rapidly advancing to aid in developing the one world government (revived Roman Empire) as revealed in the Book of Daniel and Revelation.

But in regards to the Rapture of the church, no prophetic sign is required. It can happen any moment. It has to do with “the fullness of the Gentiles” as revealed in Rom. 11:25 (not to be confused with “the times of the Gentiles” Jesus spoke about in Lk. 21:24). The Rapture is prophetic but it’s not based on any prophetic event revealed in Scripture. All the “end time” prophetic events revealed in the Old and New Testaments have to do with national Israel and the Gentile nations, not the church. We won’t be here!!! This present church age was not revealed to the O.T. prophets. That’s why we have the N.T. Epistles and the Apostles (especially Paul) to explain it.

I also, believe that there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which is putting this into the minds of God’s children because every Christian I know has the same feeling and some pastors i have heard have felt the same. I’m talking about pastors who do not say things like that in an “of-the-wall” manner.

Be careful, my brother, with “feelings” and basing your beliefs on them. There is nothing in Scripture that says the Holy Spirit will put into the minds of believers that the Rapture is near. What many see today are global developments in preparation for the time of the great Tribulation period, or, the beginning of the “Day of the Lord.” Hence, the Rapture could be near since Christ’s church, which He has been building since Pentecost, is not destine for wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 6:16-17). But, still, we don’t know when. But we are to comfort one another with the reality of it (1 Thess. 4:18).

Oh, btw, I’m a “he.”

Sorry folks for the digression. Back to our regular scheduled program.

 

[paul_c]

Well put; you truly have a love for God’s word and I look forward to fellowship with you once we are absent from our bodies and present with the Lord.

Calvin 95, Yankee Clipper, Moondweller,

We Catholics recognize that you gentlemen have a love of God’s word and we likewise hope that you can spend an eternity of Bliss with God.

But I for one, wonder what motivates you to come to Catholic Answer’s forum. Ostensibly, we are here to provide answers to your questions on Catholic teaching. However, it is clear from your writings on these and other threads that you really have no interest in what the Catholic Church really teaches. In fact, quite often you spend considerable time telling us what we believe…

So you must believe that you have something that Catholics don’t have that leads to salvation and you feel the need to share it. That’s fair. But lets take it a step further and come to grips with what that might actually be.

→ You believe that God’s word is contained in the Bible… Well so do Catholics. Afterall, it was Catholic saints that wrote the books of the New Testament. It was the Catholic Church that compiled the Bible and it was a Catholic Pope who authorized it. Now you might believe we interpret it in error. But certainly you would grant us the perrogative of turning to The Church as experts on what scripture says, given that it was the Church that compiled it, just as you would turn to your pastors for advice on how to interpret the word of God. It therefore becomes a debate on who is the rightful authority to intepret scriptures and can you demonstrate that your authorities are more knoweldgeable or more inspired than ours?

→ You believe in God’s sovereignty, Well so do Catholics. God is all powerful and all knowing and can do whatever he pleases.

→ You believe in God’s mercy to sinners and in the forgiveness of sins. Well so do Catholics. We in fact believe that God will absolve all prior sins at baptism and again anytime we go contritely to the sacrament of reconciliation. You might argue that it is unnecessary to go through these rituals and that you can communicate directly to God through prayer. But can you show that there is any harm to the soul to using the sacraments to convey sorrow for sin. After all, it involves the same concept of prayer that you would use, only in a more formal and more public fashion. And can you begrudge us for thinking this is the only way, since we read in scripture that we are to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 2:38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

And would you begrudge for turning to the church for the forgiveness of sins when Jesus gave the Chruch through the Apostles the right to do so in John 20: 21-23
21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

So when we do these things, we follow our consciences. again, you might say you think this is unnecessary, but can you show why it could be harmful to us.

→ You believe that to gain grace you need to ask for it and that upon doing so, it is freely given. You say that this is done through Faith and to that we would say AMEN. But we believe that the way in which we must request these graces is through the sacraments. You may think that this is unnecessary, but can you show that it is harmful to the soul? After all, you must forgive us if we think we are following scripture, when we go to the church for the grace in the sacraments. I have already shown above why we believe that baptism and reconciliation are scriptural. To that I would add the Eucharist. For we see in John 6, it says:
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

So while you might say that partaking in the eucharist is unneccesary for our salvation and that all you need is faith alone, you must understand that we are following scripture when we feel we need to. And in any case, can you possible say that our devotion to Jesus though the Eucharist is harmful to the soul in any way.

 

[paul_c]

→ You would say that man is sinful by nature and requires God’s mercy for salvation. To that Catholics would say a hearty AMEN. You would also say that God enables us to do good works. And to that we would also say AMEN. We would also say that it is necessary to grow in holiness and to avoid sin to gain heaven. You might say that this is unnecessary, but we feel that we must follow Jesus and do the will of his father as he said in Matthew 7: 21-23:
21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Again, you might think its unnecessary to do good works, but do you honestly think God will condemn us for trying to follow Jesus’s example to the best of our ability?

→ You might further say that all of this is unnecessary because our ultimate spiritual destiny is pre-ordained and that nothing you do matters. But if this is so, why do you spent so much time on Catholic Answers Forum trying to convince us that we are doing it wrong? And really, can you not see that we believe everything you do about salvation AND MORE? Do you think we endanger our souls by following what we see as the authentic word of God?

 

[Tomster]

It’s a yes or no question. Why can’t you answer it?

Must one who “has been” saved walk in these works of love or not?

Chuck

Moon has a difficult time answering point blank questions. He prefers to deflect.

 

[Tomster]

paul c, cat herder, guanophore, gregg alvarez, clmowry,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=504718&page=4 POST # 48.

The above post pretty much describes the hole calvin 95, yankee clipper and the moonmeister have dug for themselves.

That’s post # 48 :knight2:

 

[Tomster]

Calvin 95, Yankee Clipper, Moondweller,

We Catholics recognize that you gentlemen have a love of God’s word and we likewise hope that you can spend an eternity of Bliss with God.

But I for one, wonder what motivates you to come to Catholic Answer’s forum. Ostensibly, we are here to provide answers to your questions on Catholic teaching. However, it is clear from your writings on these and other threads that you really have no interest in what the Catholic Church really teaches. In fact, quite often you spend considerable time telling us what we believe…

So you must believe that you have something that Catholics don’t have that leads to salvation and you feel the need to share it. That’s fair. But lets take it a step further and come to grips with what that might actually be.

→ You believe that God’s word is contained in the Bible… Well so do Catholics. Afterall, it was Catholic saints that wrote the books of the New Testament. It was the Catholic Church that compiled the Bible and it was a Catholic Pope who authorized it. Now you might believe we interpret it in error. But certainly you would grant us the perrogative of turning to The Church as experts on what scripture says, given that it was the Church that compiled it, just as you would turn to your pastors for advice on how to interpret the word of God. It therefore becomes a debate on who is the rightful authority to intepret scriptures and can you demonstrate that your authorities are more knoweldgeable or more inspired than ours?

→ You believe in God’s sovereignty, Well so do Catholics. God is all powerful and all knowing and can do whatever he pleases.

→ You believe in God’s mercy to sinners and in the forgiveness of sins. Well so do Catholics. We in fact believe that God will absolve all prior sins at baptism and again anytime we go contritely to the sacrament of reconciliation. You might argue that it is unnecessary to go through these rituals and that you can communicate directly to God through prayer. But can you show that there is any harm to the soul to using the sacraments to convey sorrow for sin. After all, it involves the same concept of prayer that you would use, only in a more formal and more public fashion. And can you begrudge us for thinking this is the only way, since we read in scripture that we are to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 2:38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

And would you begrudge for turning to the church for the forgiveness of sins when Jesus gave the Chruch through the Apostles the right to do so in John 20: 21-23
21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

So when we do these things, we follow our consciences. again, you might say you think this is unnecessary, but can you show why it could be harmful to us.

→ You believe that to gain grace you need to ask for it and that upon doing so, it is freely given. You say that this is done through Faith and to that we would say AMEN. But we believe that the way in which we must request these graces is through the sacraments. You may think that this is unnecessary, but can you show that it is harmful to the soul? After all, you must forgive us if we think we are following scripture, when we go to the church for the grace in the sacraments. I have already shown above why we believe that baptism and reconciliation are scriptural. To that I would add the Eucharist. For we see in John 6, it says:
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

So while you might say that partaking in the eucharist is unneccesary for our salvation and that all you need is faith alone, you must understand that we are following scripture when we feel we need to. And in any case, can you possible say that our devotion to Jesus though the Eucharist is harmful to the soul in any way.

Well said Paul.

What our esteemed adversaries are unwilling to admit is the fact that Scripture is a divine book and only a divinely constituted teaching authority can finally decide its meaning. They claim to have the authority, but do they really? What our adversaries do not want us to focus on is the numerous divisions within Protestantism and all of the fantastic and contradictory interpretations they each give to chapter and verse. All of their so-called exegesis is worthless. As alluded to in my above post, they cannot even decide among themselves what the true interpretation of Scripture is and yet they come to Catholic Answers and lecture us about the truth of Scripture. What folly!

They are truly the blind leading the blind. <----------

 

[Tomster]

What does this have to do with salvation? If you break one law, you’re guilty of breaking all of them. Without God’s grace we cannot make it to heaven. Remission of sins can only come about through the shedding of blood…the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

yankee_drifter,

I’ll try and make this as simple as possible.

Suppose there was a switch inside of you and the switch was labelled “free will.”

Ask yourself the question: Is my “free will” switch in the on or off position?

You certainly must admit that all of us make thousands of decisions daily. Some of them are good ones and some of them may not be so good. Some of them may align to the will of God. Some of them may not.

When you make a free will decision to do something which is not in alignment with God’s will and then carry out that decision into an action what would you call that?

Catholics call that a sin. The Bible and the Church tells us that some sins are more serious than others. Some sins will send us directly to Hell if we do not repent of them. Now, if any one of us would have committed one of those serious sins, you know, the ones which will send us straight to Hell, and we did not repent of that sin, would you say that person is still saved? Of course not. By our own free will choice, we have turned our back on God’s grace, which is His very life, and decided to do what we wanted to do instead of what God wanted us to do.

So, I ask you again: Have you ever counted the times you have co-operated with God’s grace? Have you ever counted the times you have not co-operated with God’s grace?

We Catholics are thankful to God for providing us with an absolutely SURE way of knowing those deadly sins we have committed through the course of our lives are truly forgiven and that we are restored to Him and His very life.

We know this for sure because the Bible and His Church remind us of the words of Jesus when He told His Apostles: “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them and whose sins you retain, they are retained.” Focus on the words of the last phrase of Jesus’ words for a moment. He gave the power of retaining sins to His Apostles. Amazing! They did not have to forgive the sins of the penitent if they thought the penitent was not truly sorry and did not have a firm purpose of amendment. This coming from lips of our most merciful Savior. It is almost paradoxical since Peter asked our Lord how many times we should forgive our brother. Christ’s reply was 7 X 70, meaning always. But, yet, He gave the Apostles the power to retain (not forgive). Why do think that is ?

Faith alone? Don’t think so!

 

[clmowry]

Very simple according the the Holy Spirit working the the pen of the Apostle Paul.

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” - Romans 11:6

The full context would be Romans 11:1-32.

Hope that answers your question.

Nope

 

[Calvin_95]

Calvin,
I ask one person one question and asked kindly for no elaboration SO THAT they will not fall into a trap. I get two responses from two people and they both elaborated and both fell into the trap. He thinks is righteous and a saint and you had an ever so subtle implication that Catholics have no reverence for God in our confessionals. I guess you completely missed the verses where is says to confess to one another. Hmm… I smell hyprocrisy. You can look for yourself. I confess to God and priests. Sometimes at the same time. I am not at all inferring that the priest is God but you can do your research.

I have done the research by the reading/studying of Scripture among other things and to confess to a priest you have to establish a pristhood from Scripture and you cannot do that because the New Covenant took away any priesthood that resembles the Levitical priesthood.

The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, vol 2, question 358 asks “What is a sacrifice?” Answer: “A sacrifice is the offering of a victim by a priest to God alone, and the destruction of it in some way to knowledge that he is the creator of all things.”

We cannot find anything that resemble this in Scripture, but we do find this. "The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, Do your priests die a physical death? Yes

24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since **He always lives to make intercession **for them.

Also we find this: "For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Continuing: Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

What more can be said that God has not already proclaimed and therefore it is done according to His will & purpose. Well we can go ahead and add a little more; just to bury the whole notion of the need to have Christ play the victim over and over again.

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 **Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often **since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so **Christ also, having been offered once **to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

So by faith alone we trust in His one perfect sacrafice and we trust He is seated at the right hand of God making intercession on the Christians behalf. It is by faith alone by one sacrafice on a cross nearly 2000 years ago by Jesus the Christ and savior to all who believe by His grace through faith in Jesus for HIs sake.

 

[Calvin_95]

And I with you dear brother.I certainly do. I am Dispensational in my theology, hence, Premil./Pretrib.No one can know for sure. But Israel, against all odds, is back as a nation which is required for the end time events to occur, and as the ancient Hebrew prophets predicted. And technology is rapidly advancing to aid in developing the one world government (revived Roman Empire) as revealed in the Book of Daniel and Revelation.

But in regards to the Rapture of the church, no prophetic sign is required. It can happen any moment. It has to do with “the fullness of the Gentiles” as revealed in Rom. 11:25 (not to be confused with “the times of the Gentiles” Jesus spoke about in Lk. 21:24). The Rapture is prophetic but it’s not based on any prophetic event revealed in Scripture. All the “end time” prophetic events revealed in the Old and New Testaments have to do with national Israel and the Gentile nations, not the church. We won’t be here!!! This present church age was not revealed to the O.T. prophets. That’s why we have the N.T. Epistles and the Apostles (especially Paul) to explain it.Be careful, my brother, with “feelings” and basing your beliefs on them. There is nothing in Scripture that says the Holy Spirit will put into the minds of believers that the Rapture is near. What many see today are global developments in preparation for the time of the great Tribulation period, or, the beginning of the “Day of the Lord.” Hence, the Rapture could be near since Christ’s church, which He has been building since Pentecost, is not destine for wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 6:16-17). But, still, we don’t know when. But we are to comfort one another with the reality of it (1 Thess. 4:18).

Oh, btw, I’m a “he.”

Sorry folks for the digression. Back to our regular scheduled program.

My fault for the digression from the topic; I apologize to everyone.

 

[Calvin_95]

Calvin 95, Yankee Clipper, Moondweller,

We Catholics recognize that you gentlemen have a love of God’s word and we likewise hope that you can spend an eternity of Bliss with God.

But I for one, wonder what motivates you to come to Catholic Answer’s forum. Ostensibly, we are here to provide answers to your questions on Catholic teaching. However, it is clear from your writings on these and other threads that you really have no interest in what the Catholic Church really teaches. In fact, quite often you spend considerable time telling us what we believe…

***“We do not require that members agree with the Catholic Church in order to participate; only that they remain charitable in their postings.”

“Apologetics - learn to respond to questions about and challenges to your Faith, including effective presentation techniques, examine historical controversies.”***

I wonder how I found this forum; just stumbled on it while looking up something that dealt with Catholic teaching and saw this and got curious. I do like the challenging questions that provoke thought and defense and therefore benefits my own searching and studying of the Scriptures. Perhaps this is God’s purpose in this for me. I cannot convert anyone; that is the sole work of God alone and He made those decisions before I was even born. Those are my thoughts on your concerns or comments.

 

[Calvin_95]

→ You would say that man is sinful by nature and requires God’s mercy for salvation. To that Catholics would say a hearty AMEN. You would also say that God enables us to do good works. And to that we would also say AMEN. We would also say that it is necessary to grow in holiness and to avoid sin to gain heaven. You might say that this is unnecessary, but we feel that we must follow Jesus and do the will of his father as he said in Matthew 7: 21-23:
21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Again, you might think its unnecessary to do good works, but do you honestly think God will condemn us for trying to follow Jesus’s example to the best of our ability?

The works which God prepared before the foundation of the world are those which He prepared that the Christian would “walk in them”; just by that statement, the person is already a Christian, which is why the works which God recognizes, are the result of a transformed life in Christ or a result of salvation, not the means of salvation. That is a theological difference which is as far as the east is from the west. Good works are very important in the life of a Christian; it is one of the means God uses to conform the Christian closer to the image of His son and a means to glorifying God before men. Otherwise, there is no reason to be here for we will worship Him perfectly in heaven, we will fellowship with one another perfectly in heaven, we will demonstrate perfect love in heaven; all these we cannot do while on earth because of the flesh.

 

[Calvin_95]

paul c, cat herder, guanophore, gregg alvarez, clmowry,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=504718&page=4 POST # 48.

The above post pretty much describes the hole calvin 95, yankee clipper and the moonmeister have dug for themselves.

That’s post # 48 :knight2:

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
The reason I opened this thread was simply to point out the absurdity of the Protestant positions regarding doctrinal unity.

Here is the error according to Scripture:

Romans 8:17-25 "and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with {Him} so that we may also be glorified with {Him.} 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it."
"the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God" Who are the “sons of God” in this passage? Is it the true church?

**Here is a quote from TOMSTER **"fall back on one of two expedients: either they deny that Catholicism was ever the true Church and trace their genealogy through the gallery of heretics from Marcion and Arius to Luther, Calvin and Zwingli; or they admit that Catholics formed the true Church up to the Reformation but, "

**Here is God’s answer:1 Timothy 1:1-4 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, {who is} our hope, 2 To Timothy, {my} true child in {the} faith: Grace, mercy {and} peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than {furthering} the administration of God which is by faith. **

I could continue, but the point is made that the bulding we go to is not the church that is revealed and we are told to avoid “endless genealogies”. i will say that if anyone says the Catholic church has not changed dramatically; just doesn’t pay attention.

 

[Calvin_95]

Well said Paul.

What our esteemed adversaries are unwilling to admit is the fact that Scripture is a divine book and only a divinely constituted teaching authority can finally decide its meaning. They claim to have the authority, but do they really? What our adversaries do not want us to focus on is the numerous divisions within Protestantism and all of the fantastic and contradictory interpretations they each give to chapter and verse. All of their so-called exegesis is worthless. As alluded to in my above post, they cannot even decide among themselves what the true interpretation of Scripture is and yet they come to Catholic Answers and lecture us about the truth of Scripture. What folly!

They are truly the blind leading the blind. <----------

How do you reconcile that a group of men are the interpreters of Scripture, when by contrast Scripture states quite another?

“Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name. 12 I will give thanks to You, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And will glorify Your name forever.”

“The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the decrees of the Lord are sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever; the ordinances of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey, and drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.”

"For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; so that they might not look with their eyes, and listen with their ears, and understand with their heart and turn - and I would heal them.’ "

Then he called the crowd to him and said to them, "Listen and understand:

Then he called the crowd again and said to them, "Listen to me, all of you, and understand:

And becoming aware of it, Jesus said to them, "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened?

But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Why would God hide the understanding of His word to a common person? Answer: He wouldn’t unless He chose to do so in His sovereignty.

Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

"Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Very truly, I tell you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."

**14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. ** – Do you see that the natural man, the unregenerate cannot understand, but the Christian can and does understand. There are many many other passages that reflect this same concept about who can understand Scripture and How they can understand. What did Luke state about when Peter was preaching?

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

How could the Holy Spirit rest on anyone who does not believe and how can one believe that which they did not understand? Impossible!

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I have done the research by the reading/studying of Scripture among other things and to confess to a priest you have to establish a pristhood from Scripture and you cannot do that because the New Covenant took away any priesthood that resembles the Levitical priesthood.

The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, vol 2, question 358 asks “What is a sacrifice?” Answer: “A sacrifice is the offering of a victim by a priest to God alone, and the destruction of it in some way to knowledge that he is the creator of all things.”

We cannot find anything that resemble this in Scripture, but we do find this. "The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, Do your priests die a physical death? Yes

…

So by faith alone we trust in His one perfect sacrafice and we trust He is seated at the right hand of God making intercession on the Christians behalf. It is by faith alone by one sacrafice on a cross nearly 2000 years ago by Jesus the Christ and savior to all who believe by His grace through faith in Jesus for HIs sake.

There is nothing in here that remotely mentions anything to the conclusion of “faith alone.” You have no idea of what eternal and temporal is. We do not contradict “one sacrifice” by making it present in the Mass. This goes to prove our idea of it: that our feeble minds cannot fully understand it. The Mass is God’s gift to us to show that he can do what we think is impossible, that is to make something eternal that happened temporally in the world. I am not sure what to say about the sacrifice thing but the Mass is just that; it is Jesus on the cross. Not again as you presume but re-presented as eternally as a gift from God. If you cannot understand that, say that. Do not make up something that clearly contradicts the idea of God being beyond temporalities of humanity. You limit Him. That is the definition of trivialize. You are making Him less significant. If you disagree, I am sorry for being candid but it is true. Christ did not die so we can take advantage of Him and indulge in sin and make a prideful confession with your conscience tied up and your sins unrepented through penance. Your misunderstanding of sin tells everybody just that, that you are taking advantage of His death. Why do you sin in your soul? Because you reject the love of God. Rejecting the love of God, by definition of God, is rejecting God. Confession through the utmost humility to a priest (which Christ Himself commands) and penance reconciliates the soul to God so that we have hopes of attaining eternal joy with our Source of Life, Truth and Joy. Jesus through His human form told us to confess to His priests. These are not priests of the Law, but rather priests of the New Testament, that is Love. We did not establish a priesthood or a new priesthood as you might think. CHRIST DID! It is a Sacrament of the Church for a reason. I do not suppose that you know what the Church calls a Sacrament. I will telll you if you do not (which is the present case): A Sacrament is that instituted by Christ. The priesthood is a Sacrament. The New Covenant might have taken away priesthood of the Levitical law (I have personally not read on that) but Christ started a new priesthood in the Law of Love. Hard concept which I am sure you could not gather from your studies of us. In any case, go look through the Bible for the verses where it says to confess to one another. I can do it but I want you to. I want you to make an honest search.

The Sacred Tradition of the Church knows more about sin because it acknowledges the plain old fact that everybody is a sinner. Protestants may say it but they do not acknowledge it. Maybe not all of them but I do think it is a terrible idea to over-generalize.

The only way for salvation is to act on the faith with works through the hope of being in heaven with God. You talk a lot about believing, repenting, carrying the cross, charital acts, loving neighbor and such but you do not consider those as works. You are not righteous. If you are, that is not up to you to decide. This is where your ideas are not in line with Scriptures because you take your textbook called Bible and read into it and call yourself a holy one because somewhere in the Bible they refer to somebody else as a holy one or saint. You are wrong. The Church speaks the Truth.

Jesus Himself says, “He who hears you, hears me.” You have not heard either. Just like He said, “Whatsoever you do to the lowliest of mankind, you did to me.” (something like that anyway but the same concept). Your teachers have taught you untruth. The Church, given to us by God in flesh, teaches this and is protected from untruth by the Holy Spirit lest the gates of Hades prevail against it (I really hope I am using the word “lest” right). This is more than knowledge, intelligence and belief; it is Truth. Just admit you have no idea what the Church teaches instead of putting new words and meanings in our doctrines, beliefs, and Traditions or changing the doctrine to fit it that it goes against Scripture. Atheists do this enough. We do not need our own brethren to do this to us.