Faith alone or not?

[paul_c]

Cat, you merely make quick response to messages. You don’t always comprehend what you read. I never said Jesus “cannnot be physically present on earth.” I said He is PRESENTLY in heaven in His glorified, human body and therefore cannot be in millions of places on earth at the same time. A human body can only be in one place at one time. And to add to that, nor can His human body be dead (sacrificially, Catholicism teaches that its Eucharist is a true, propitiatory sacrifice) and at the same time ALIVE forevermore.They were to blow the trumpets at the time of their offerings and sacrifices as a reminder of them before their God. That’s not the same as what Jesus said. Not even close.When did you physically see the Lord? Was He sitting next to you in your car? At your dinner table? Did He knock on your door and you let Him in?The point is Jesus physically manifested Himself before them. But He didn’t show Himself at the same time to various people in various places. For that matter, can you show me in the Scriptures where Jesus, in His human body (whether in His body of humility or glorified body), was ever in more than one place at a time? You can’t, because a true human body cannot be omnipresent. That’s one (only one) of the big differences between humanity and Divinity.Omnipresence is a Divine attribute ONLY. And still, Jesus is not now in His body of humility (which is needed for your Eucharist) and at the same time in His glorified body which is alive forevermore.It’s you who are confused as to what is claimed to take place at your Mass. For Calvary to be “present” Jesus (body, soul, spirit and divinity) must be in His body of humility. And He must be bodily present in millions of places at the same time. Sorry, but you’ve just stepped out of the reality of humanity.IOW, the Holy Spirit supposedly makes it ACTUALLY present. Hence, Christ must “actually” exist in His body of humility and His glorified body at the same time; and His human body of humility must be omnipresent. Which would make it no longer human but Divine. Also, where is it taught in the Scriptures that such is the work of the Holy Spirit?

Why do you believe Jesus is limited by the physical laws. He cured people by his words alone. He turned water into wine. He fed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. He walked on water. And he rose from the dead. Why do you think its too much for him to be present in the sacrifice of the mass at all times and at all places. What other limitations do you put on God?

 

[ncgolf]

I think you might benefit from some study of the anamnesis. The Lord’s Supper is the fulfillment of the Passover. The whole focus of the rememberance (anamnesis) is to make it PRESENT! During that ritual, the real lamb was really consumed. It was a way of bringing the deliverance of Israel present to those of later generations.

Catholic believe that Jesus’ sacrifice transcends time, and by the great mystery of the Eucharist, we become present at the foot of His cross.

We see this at the end of Luke’s Gospel with the disciples on the road to Emmaus and the power that is held in this great mystery.

The faith of those disciples was shaken as the events of the world caused them to move away from the holy city and it was only after consumption did they turn back. I see each of us as those two, faith filled yet at the same time weak, at any time either moving toward holiness and yet sometimes away. And we see how God intervenes even as we wander away, He is there to “open our eyes” in the same exact manner as Luke describes.

It truly is “by grace through faith” and that grace can be received by at least one known means … the breaking of the bread.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Cat, you merely make quick response to messages. You don’t always comprehend what you read. I never said Jesus “cannnot be physically present on earth.” I said He is PRESENTLY in heaven in His glorified, human body and therefore cannot be in millions of places on earth at the same time.

When He rose He did exactly that.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 24:39[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]John 21:12-13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]John 20:19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 15:44[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 1:3[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:19-23[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:37[/BIBLEDRB]

And how can this be possible…

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 18:20[/BIBLEDRB]

… if Jesus is a PERSON Who has a Body, Blood, Soul and His Divinity? Death is the division of the body and the blood, and of the body and the soul. BUT HE IS RISEN. Jesus cannot be divided up into parts because He is alive!

Denial of the Eucharist is just a ham-handed denial of the Incarnation and the Resurrection.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Can somebody please teach me how to multi-quote? Intelligence was never my thing to begin with so bare with my technological (and everything-else-logical) stupidity.

Cat, you merely make quick response to messages. You don’t always comprehend what you read. I never said Jesus “cannnot be physically present on earth.” I said He is PRESENTLY in heaven in His glorified, human body and therefore cannot be in millions of places on earth at the same time. A human body can only be in one place at one time. And to add to that, nor can His human body be dead (sacrificially, Catholicism teaches that its Eucharist is a true, propitiatory sacrifice) and at the same time ALIVE forevermore.

This is where the concept of “miracle” comes in Moondweller. If you had studied the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, you would know that the Eucharistic MIRACLE in the Mass is the Lamb’s Supper, His Sacrifice on the Cross, His Resurrection and His Ascension into Heaven. How does God do this? I have no clue and will not even attempt to get a clue but this is a miracle. This is the Church teaching. If I can recall also, Jesus said “This is my body… This is my blood” while alive. We do not eat His Body and Blood and take it to be dead. We take it to be alive in order to make us alive. That refuted your idea pretty succinctly.

And saying “His human body” almost seems like you are changing His God-and-Man quality to God-or-Man. In any case, heaven is with us and for us also. If you are saying what I think you mean (that is Jesus or Heaven for that matter cannot be in multiple places), prayers to Jesus would be unheard (this is exactly why we ask Heaven’s Inhabitants for intercession also). I realize that a human body cannot be in multiple places and you and I are in complete agreement on this. But His was a Human Body which came into the world to be slain. The only Person to come to this world whose purpose was to die was Jesus. I think He is more special than me and you. Heaven is with us everywhere along with its inhabitants. If you ask me for a verse number, I am sorry that I cannot do that. This is why I can pray to Jesus right here and you can right there. Jesus is everywhere along with Heaven’s Inhabitant’s: Mary Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, the Angels, the Saints, and the Martyrs. This is also why we ask them for intercession.

In any case, I believe God is omnipresent.

Now that your idea of the Eucharist is refuted by Catholics, can we stick to the thread question?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

1. When did you physically see the Lord? 2. Was He sitting next to you in your car? 3. At your dinner table? 4. Did He knock on your door and you let Him in?

1. Yes… In the Eucharist… If He says, “This is my Body” and to do it in remembrance of Him, surely it is His Body when we do it in remembrance of Him.
2. He might have been. That is between Jesus and whoever He decided to show up next to.
3. Yes… More precisely the altar that would represent the dinner table at the Last Supper.
4. Yes… This does not have to be literal.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

The point is Jesus physically manifested Himself before them. But He didn’t show Himself at the same time to various people in various places. For that matter, can you show me in the Scriptures where Jesus, in His human body (whether in His body of humility or glorified body), was ever in more than one place at a time? You can’t, because a true human body cannot be omnipresent. That’s one (only one) of the big differences between humanity and Divinity.Omnipresence is a Divine attribute ONLY.

When He said, “This is my body… This is my blood…”, He meant that it was in fact His Body and His Blood. Somewhere in First Corinthians discusses it also. He was sitting at the table and at the same time His Body and Blood was under the accidents of bread and wine by transubstantion. Surely, this is two places at once.

I agree that omnipresence is a divine attribute. I agree that a human body cannot be omnipresent. I also agree that omnipresence is a difference between humanity and divinity. Nobody is denying is this Moondweller. What we are saying is that Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is Divine. He does not just have a Divine Mind, He also has a Divine Body. Otherwise, the Supreme Justice on the Cross for the forgiveness of sins would not be good enough. Actually, it would infinitely not be good enough. Think about it. Jesus says, “This is my body which will be given up for you.” In order to open up the gates of Heaven, there had to be an infinite sacrifice for infinite justice. He could not have sacrificed His Mind. That would defeat all logic and the laws God Himself set. There had to be an infinite sacrifice on a Divine Body. It is a little more intricate than this but this should help you figure that you are wrong about what you tell us we believe.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

And still, Jesus is not now in His body of humility (which is needed for your Eucharist) and at the same time in His glorified body which is alive forevermore.

Ummm… What?
That Body of humility that you are talking about is sinless. Can you say that about your body? Or soul even?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

It’s you who are confused as to what is claimed to take place at your Mass. For Calvary to be “present” Jesus (body, soul, spirit and divinity) must be in His body of humility.

Stop telling us what happens in our Mass. In all seriousness, we know more about what happens in the Mass than you do. Trust me. This is getting old. You would not like it if I say, “You must be confused in your Protestant worship services. Protestants do not worship in their service with rock bands and hour-long sermons. They do not use Scripture.” That would be a completely false and arrogant statement. Do not belittle OUR knowledge of OUR Mass.

Anyway, you are confused with Jesus at Calvary according to Catholic teaching and what I thought was all Christians but apparently not. Let me tell you part of a story of a man named… for simplicity’s sake, let us call Him Jesus. Jesus had His body on a Cross. Jesus had His soul with His body. This is true because in this story He was sad. A body cannot be sad. “My God, why have you forsaken me?” was His version of a dark night in the soul. On the Cross, this Jesus says, “Father, into your hand I commend my spirit.” His spirit was there. And Jesus (body, soul, spirit) is God. God is Divine. Jesus is Divine. He did not separate His Trinity (body, soul and spirit). Why do you?

In any case, what is this body of humility you speak of? I really do not know what that is.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

1. IOW, the Holy Spirit supposedly makes it ACTUALLY present. 2. Hence, Christ must “actually” exist in His body of humility and His glorified body at the same time; and His human body of humility must be omnipresent. Which would make it no longer human but Divine. 3. Also, where is it taught in the Scriptures that such is the work of the Holy Spirit?

1. Yes! I am happy you understand it.
2. What does that even mean? I seriously have no clue what a body of humility is. I have never heard it in my life until today. In any case, His Body is Divine. I do not care what your opinion is on this. Jesus is Divine. His Body is divine. His soul is divine. His spirit is divine. His divinity is divine. I say divinity because you had earlier assumed that these are 4 separable traits.
3. Would you believe our position if we showed it?

 

[moondweller]

1. What does that even mean? I seriously have no clue what a body of humility is. I have never heard it in my life until today.

His “body of humility” is the body in which he was born, suffered and died on the cross. In contrast to His now glorified body in which He was raised. It’s the same body only now glorified, raised in power, never to experience death again. Hence, what happened at Calvary can never be re-presented again:Rom 6:10 “For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all (time); but the life that He lives, He lives to God” (in a now glorified body).

Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.’

In any case, His Body is Divine.

Actually, no, His glorified body is fully human. As His body of humility was fully human, so is His present, glorified body is fully human. Paul writeshil 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."Believers will not receive a “Divine body” at the time of the resurrection or translation. But a human, glorified body in conformity to that which the MAN Christ Jesus now possesses. His body has to do with His humanity, not His Divinity. Divinity has no body, and therefore can be omnipresent. Jesus is omnipresent in His Divinity but not His humanity. A human body cannot be omnipresent.

I do not care what your opinion is on this. Jesus is Divine.

He is both human and Divine. But at the incarnation His Divinity did not take on humanity, nor did His humanity take on Divinity. Else His humanity would not be truly human, nor His Divinity truly divine. IOW, He would not have incarnated a true man, but rather some kind of hybrid Superman. He would not have been one of us. And this verse could not be true of Him:Heb 2:17 “Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people”.

1. Would you believe our position if we showed it?

I know what your position is.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

His “body of humility” is the body in which he was born, suffered and died on the cross. In contrast to His now glorified body in which He was raised. It’s the same body only now glorified, raised in power, never to experience death again. Hence, what happened at Calvary can never be re-presented again:

​

I am going to go against what I believe and ask you a simple question. Where does it say “body of humility” in the Bible?

And thanks for showing that you cannot respond to the bulk of our statements. By the way, Jesus says this in the Gospel of John, chapter 6

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

What is your take on this?​

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I know what your position is.

I highly disagree. You stated yourself that “Catholicism does not have a concept of saved…” We do… Hence, you do NOT know what our position is.

Respond to all of the information given in posts 601-607.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

A human body cannot be omnipresent.He is both human and Divine. But at the incarnation His Divinity did not take on humanity, nor did His humanity take on Divinity. Else His humanity would not be truly human, nor His Divinity truly divine. IOW, He would not have incarnated a true man, but rather some kind of hybrid Superman. He would not have been one of us. .

So you are saying there are 2 of Jesus? One human and one divine?

Our position is this… We cannot explain how He is both God and Man. However, that should not lead someone to separate the two as you are doing. As you cannot separate my body from my soul, you cannot separate His Divinity from His Body.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Rom 6:10 “For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all (time); but the life that He lives, He lives to God” (in a now glorified body).

Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.’[/indent]

In Romans 6:10, you added time by the way. But yes He did die once and for all. We do not deny that. You still fail to not understand our position. If you say you do, you are wrong. He makes this once and for all sacrifice eternally present. We only see it as temporally because we cannot see through the eyes of eternity, much less God. We cannot explain it fully but we do understand it. He “eternalizes” it through the Mass. We have stated our case and you still twist it up. How much are you going to twist it up this time?

Amen to Hebrews 9:26

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Actually, no, His glorified body is fully human. As His body of humility was fully human, so is His present, glorified body is fully human. Paul writeshil 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."Believers will not receive a “Divine body” at the time of the resurrection or translation. But a human, glorified body in conformity to that which the MAN Christ Jesus now possesses. His body has to do with His humanity, not His Divinity. Divinity has no body, and therefore can be omnipresent. Jesus is omnipresent in His Divinity but not His humanity.

So much falseness! Certainly, if that were the case, the Eucharist would not exist. Those last 3 sentences are wrong because HE is divine. “HE” includes every part of Jesus, material and immaterial. We all KNOW this as a fact because we all take these as ours: body, soul, spirit, nature, etc… We all know them to be a PART of ourselves because they are part of us. But only when we combine them do we call that whole “me”. Same with Jesus. He is material and immaterial. Do you agree?

Anyway, you are confused with Jesus at Calvary according to Catholic teaching and what I thought was all Christians but apparently not. Let me tell you part of a story of a man named… for simplicity’s sake, let us call Him Jesus. Jesus had His body on a Cross. Jesus had His soul with His body. This is true because in this story He was sad. A body cannot be sad. “My God, why have you forsaken me?” was His version of a dark night in the soul. On the Cross, this Jesus says, “Father, into your hand I commend my spirit.” His spirit was there. And Jesus (body, soul, spirit) is God. God is Divine. Jesus is Divine. He did not separate His Trinity (body, soul and spirit). Why do you?

I am going to repeat myself until you give a good argument. By “good”, I mean one that works.

This is where the concept of “miracle” comes in Moondweller. If you had studied the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, you would know that the Eucharistic MIRACLE in the Mass is the Lamb’s Supper, His Sacrifice on the Cross, His Resurrection and His Ascension into Heaven. How does God do this? I have no clue and will not even attempt to get a clue but this is a miracle. This is the Church teaching. If I can recall also, Jesus said “This is my body… This is my blood” while alive. We do not eat His Body and Blood and take it to be dead. We take it to be alive in order to make us alive. That refuted your idea pretty succinctly.

And saying “His human body” almost seems like you are changing His God-and-Man quality to God-or-Man. In any case, heaven is with us and for us also. If you are saying what I think you mean (that is Jesus or Heaven for that matter cannot be in multiple places), prayers to Jesus would be unheard (this is exactly why we ask Heaven’s Inhabitants for intercession also). I realize that a human body cannot be in multiple places and you and I are in complete agreement on this. But His was a Human Body which came into the world to be slain. The only Person to come to this world whose purpose was to die was Jesus. I think He is more special than me and you. Heaven is with us everywhere along with its inhabitants. If you ask me for a verse number, I am sorry that I cannot do that. This is why I can pray to Jesus right here and you can right there. Jesus is everywhere along with Heaven’s Inhabitant’s: Mary Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, the Angels, the Saints, and the Martyrs. This is also why we ask them for intercession.

In any case, I believe God is omnipresent.

I know you are trying your best to make the Church wrong. Can we stick with the main question of this thread?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Back to Faith and Works. Sorry for getting of topic! I may have contributed.

I stated this earlier and no non-Catholic responded.

Moondweller, Calvin and non-Catholics

I do not want to discuss other verses. I want to discuss these: James 2:24 and Matthew chapter 6. If you have reasons that refute our position that stick only with these verses, that is what I am looking for. We have given many verses and you throw other verses and vice-versa without swaying on either side. So maybe it is a better idea to stick with these two verses and discuss.

Anyway, James 2:24 says this: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith only.

In my opinion this should be clear evidence but my opinion is worth nothing. Anyway, You may say that this is verse only is made to show other humans the faith of yours. Norman Geisler said this, “James is talking about justification before humans.” BUT that would clearly go against Jesus teaching in Matthew chapter 6:

1 "(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.
2
When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
3
But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,
4
so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
5
"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
6
But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
7
In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words.
8
Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

16
"When you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites. They neglect their appearance, so that they may appear to others to be fasting. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
17
But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
18
so that you may not appear to be fasting, except to your Father who is hidden. And your Father who sees what is hidden will repay you

I have no degree in apologetics but I just came up with this by myself! I am happy that I know the Bible more than I think. I am also happy because it will probably the only time I ever know where a Bible verse off the top of my head is in defending the Church. Norman Geisler goes against Jesus Christ. This is why we believe faith and works. Do you believe us now? If no, why not? Give your interpretations of these without other verses. It would be easier this way.

 

[ncgolf]

His “body of humility” is the body in which he was born, suffered and died on the cross. In contrast to His now glorified body in which He was raised. It’s the same body only now glorified, raised in power, never to experience death again. Hence, what happened at Calvary can never be re-presented again:

​

This is non-biblical and I am always shocked by the beliefs of bible believing Christians. The command was to “do this in remembrance of me”. See Guanophore’s suggestion on studying anamnesis. Catholics live the Bible not of our own accord but by the command of our Lord. Try it … you’ll like it.

A human body cannot be omnipresent.

A human body’s limits is at the command of God … if God would allow it then it would be. Now it is not in its normal course of living that a body is typically present in more than one place … but it is not out of the power of God to allow it, hence the Eucharist is not out of the realm of reason.

This does not nullify a body being fully in more than one place at one time fully in its nature. The possibility of being in more than one place at one time fully is not beyond reason nor is it non-Scriptual. It is only beyond the reasons you give.

He is both human and Divine. But at the incarnation His Divinity did not take on humanity, nor did His humanity take on Divinity. Else His humanity would not be truly human, nor His Divinity truly divine. IOW, He would not have incarnated a true man, but rather some kind of hybrid Superman.

We are made in the likeness and image of God. Humaness and divinity are natures, completely under the purview of what God allows. Is not the Incarnation Jesus being 100 percent of both at the same time without contradiction of those natures? A rather difficult state to comprehend IMO, something I think I will not fully understand in this lifetime.​

 

[ncgolf]

Back to Faith and Works. Sorry for getting of topic! I may have contributed.

It is difficult to separate faith (alone) and the Eucharist. It is only by faith that we even can take the steps to receive this gift so for Catholics it is in our thinking to not separate the two.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

It is difficult to separate faith (alone) and the Eucharist. It is only by faith that we even can take the steps to receive this gift so for Catholics it is in our thinking to not separate the two.

I completely agree with you 100% and then some! I was not talking about separating them in matters of our faith. I just wanted to separate them for the purposes of this debate which is faith and works.

I was just trying to get back on the thread question of “Faith alone or not?”

 

[Philthy]

Lots of great discussion, but too many side trails that lead away from the question at hand:
Is salvation by faith alone or not?

In my understanding of salvation it includes not merely becoming an adopted child of God, but also inheriting the kingdom of God and spending eternity in Heaven.

The problem in these discussions with our Protestant brothers is that in their notion of salvation our eternal destiny is irrevocably sealed at the moment one comes to faith in Christ.

When we look to Scripture we see indications that our entry into the family of God is by grace through faith alone - there is nothing we do to earn it.

The problem is that when we look to Scripture we also see indications that laying claim to our inheritance in the kingdom of God (Heaven) remains by grace, but is not at all by faith alone. This is clear in the verses I provided earlier: 1 Cor 6; Ephesians 5:5 and Galatians 5:20

The protestants I have discussed this issue with fall into 3 categories of (IMHO) denial:

1. These verses don’t apply to Christians
2. These verses arent actually talking about salvation, but about rewards in Heaven
3. These verses don’t mean what they appear to mean

In each area of denial is the underlying assumption that salvation ( = I’m going to Heaven) is by faith alone, THEREFORE IT CANT MEAN WHAT YOU (Catholics) SAY IT MEANS. This, of course, is erroneous logic in that it takes as a given that which is meant to be proven.

Attempts to prove “Heaven is by faith alone” become absurdly ridiculous. No longer are the clear verses with words like faith, saved, grace etc. Suddenly the verses become impossibly vague - My sheep know my voice and no one will take them out of my hand; God chose us before the foundation of the world, etc etc.

Anyhow, I’m waiting to here from one of our Protestant friends to rise to the challenge and point to a NT verse that describes inheriting the kingdom of God or of going to Heaven as by faith alone. I don’t hold my breath waiting…