Faith alone or not?

[Pax]

Phil,

Thanks for those last couple of posts…very well done.

 

[Philthy]

Phil,

Thanks for those last couple of posts…very well done.

Thanks friend - and thank you for your PM, thoughts and prayers. Know that you and those close to your heart will continue to be in my prayers in a special way this month.

Blessings!

 

[moondweller]

Lets take a look…
Eph 5:5 Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones, no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Paul warns the holy ones against immorality and impurity and greed - that not only shouldnt they behave that way, but that it shouldnt even be mentioned among them. Why would he suggest that it could mentioned among them if they are the righteous as you claim???What’s being said there flies over your head. However, a believer (according to the Scriptures) has no righteousness of his own (no man does). Like Abraham he’s reckoned (credited) righteousness; in fact, God’s righteousness,

"…that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,

Rom 3:21-22 "But now apart from law (the principle of works) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;Notice it’s “faith” and “believe” alone.

It couldnt, of course, and your position really makes no sense with the text.

​

 

[Cat_Herder]

Notice it’s “faith” and “believe” alone.I didn’t think it would make sense to you.No, of course not. It’s you who are making such a claim. He doesn’t say that at all. He says no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. A true believer is never identified as an idolater.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 8:9-12[/BIBLEDRB]

[SIGN]Keeping 'em honest.[/SIGN]

 

[Philthy]

What’s being said there flies over your head.

Im sure it is frustrating for you to engage with me but ad hominems do nothing to further your arguments, cause or reputation. Let’s try to stick to the facts, OK?

However, a believer (according to the Scriptures) has no righteousnessof his own (no man does). Like Abraham he’s reckoned (credited) righteousness;

For the same reason you and cannot coherently discuss salvation, you and I cannot coherently discuss righteousness. You believe it to be a permanent attribute at the moment of faith and I do not. Inheriting the kingdom of God/Heaven, however, we both agree is permanent when we get there. That is why I purposely chose to discuss inheriting the kingdom. I do not wish to “import” our biases on “being saved” and “righteousness” into the discussion. If inheriting the kingdom is by faith alone, then Scripture should say so and it should avoid saying things that directly contradict that claim. So I am not interested in importing your “salvation theology” from Romans or Collossians or anywhere else. Im interested in these very clear letters from Paul which discuss inheriting the Kingdom of God. Are we clear?

No, of course not. It’s you who are making such a claim.

Well if Christ’s atonement covers those sins, and believers who, according to you are still “in the flesh” will have moral lapses and commit those sins just as unbelievers will, then why does Christ use those sins as the means of identifying the unrighteous rather than say, “faithless”, or “unbeliever”??? Still unanswered MD. If - as you maintain - the unrighteous are so merely from unbelief and not from sins of idolatry, then Paul mis-spoke and his entire detracts from the message of faith alone.

He doesn’t say that at all. He says no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

It is NOT “who is an idolater”, but, “that is, an idolater”. Paul equates those sins with idolatry - he does not, as you weakly imply, claim that an idolater who commits them has no inheritance. It is true, of course that an idolater that commits them has no inheritance, but that is not what he is saying at all. He is equating immorality, impurity and covetousness as all forms of idolatry, which, of course, they are.

A true believer is never identified as an idolater.

I know. Once you fall into idolatry you are no longer a true believer and you forfeit - unless you repent - your inheritance in the kingdom of God. Thats the whole point of the sections we are discussing. It appears that your stumbling block is the assumption that a true believer remains a true believer no matter what life choices he makes. I resubmit to you that Paul’s message in each of these sections is that true believers can fall into deadly sins that can jeopardize their inheritance in the kingdom of God. That is his whole point.

Tell me Phil, do you consider the Pharisees, who were quite religious and lived strictly according to their traditions, “obedient?”

Yes and No. They were obedient to themselves and their desire for power and glory. They were not obedient to love of God and neighbor, which was the essence of the law.

Tell me, is one born a son, or does one earn that position, that relationship?

Wouldnt it be great to go off on this rabbit trail instead of dealing with the clear scripture at hand regarding inheriting the kingdom of God/Heaven? :nope:
I do not want to discuss “being saved”, becoming righteous, becoming a child of God or any such talk because you and I disagree on the implications of each. We both, however, agree on the eternal nature of inheriting the kingdom of God/ entering Heaven and that is where this discussion should remain. Now if you wish to say that there is not clear Scripture directly indicating that inheriting the kingdom of God is by faith alone, fine. Otherwise I really don’t wish to discuss the other topics because it is a given that we disagree on them: you are a OSAS adherent and I am not (except after one has completed their earthly life).

John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,"There’s that word again: “BELIEVE.” And look, again it stands alone. Surprise, surprise!

I dont disagree that one who receives and believes enters the family of God by grace and through that act alone. What I disagree with you on is whether that same person - if they fall into unrepentent sin (of the nature that Paul describes in 1 Cor 6, Eph 5 and Gal 5) jeopardizes their inheritance in the kingdom of God. Paul says that no one who commits such sins (without repenting) has any inheritance in the kingdom of God or Christ…How does he say it again? Lets return to Galatians 5 and see if Paul warns the saved believers about losing their inheritance…

Con’d…

 

[Philthy]

Returning to the issue of “Is it possible to lose our inheritance in the kingdom of God”?

Gal 5:1-5
“For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

Falling from grace is not part of your theology MD. Most rational persons with an open mind immediately recognizes what “falling from grace” means. It means they were under the yoke of slavery (ie, the law) and had been freed from it by grace through faith. But subsequent to having been “washed” and “sanctified” and after having “received the Spirit” they developed “itchy ears” and were following judaizers who were recommending new converts be circumcised. Paul is clear in what he says:
You are Christians
If you attempt to receive justification through circumcision you have separated yourself from Christ
You will fall from grace.
The party is over MD. You may disagree with my interpretations, but the fact of the matter is that they remain intellectually honest and reasonable. And unless you are claiming a divine authority to declare them invalid, I must follow my intellect and will that was given to me by God and in His image. SS is heresy and unworkable. OSAS is untenable in light of such clear admonitions such as “You have fallen from grace…you are seperated from Christ, etc” which reveal that one can be in a state of grace an “fall” from it and that one can be in Christ and subsequently “separate” themselves from Him.

Blessings!

 

[Tomster]

You can’t comprehend God’s Word when you yourself try to approach Him by works, according to your own righteousness, rather than by faith in what Christ accomplished and that righteousness (“the righteousness of God”) which is reckoned, even imputed, through faith in Christ alone. Those verses you interpret as the requirements, personal qualifiers for “inheriting heaven.” But you sadly lift them out of context and erroneously apply them to the “saints,” the “holy ones,” now and forever sanctified in the risen Christ:1 Cor 6:9-10 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."Notice Paul states of the “unrighteous” that they will not inherit the kingdom of God. And then he gives a partial list as who these “unrighteous” are. But no true believer is ever called “unrighteous,” nor is he ever identified or named amongst the unrighteous in the Scriptures. That’s why he goes on to say in verse 10 (which you cannot comprehend nor accept because of your rejection of God’s grace (unmerited Divine favor) toward us who have believed what Christ has DONE, once for all, on our behalf:1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”.Your make the same error in Eph. 5:5 based on your works mentality. Paul is writing to the “saints” (Eph. 5:3, those made holy in Christ through faith in Him alone):Eph 5:5 *For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.*No saint, now in the risen Christ, is ever identified as an immoral, an impure, or an idolater. Therefore he goes on to write addressing the saints (holy ones in Christ):Eph 5:6-12 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light {consists} in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret."Paul isn’t identifying the saints as “sons of disobedience,” but instructing them not to participate with them in their deeds of darkness, since they themselves are now “Light in the Lord,” and should therefore, “walk as children of the Light.”

This is instruction, not condemnation.

You do the same thing with Gal. 5:19-21 where Paul lists the “deeds of the flesh” vs. the “fruit of the Spirit” in Gal. 5:22-23. His instruction to the saints is that they walk NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit who now indwells them. The former are DEEDS, not identities. Every true believer still has the “flesh” while in these yet unredeemed bodies. But greater still he has the Holy Spirit in whom he is to now “walk,,” But Paul objectively states regarding the believer who now belongs to Christ (purchased by His blood) and has the Spirit who indwells him:Gal 5:24-25 "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.These are all instructions to the redeemed, those justified and saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works.

But, alas, these behavioral instructions mean nothing to those who are trying to work their way into heaven. They see them only as grounds for Divine disqualification (after all, it’s based on works, right?). They cannot comprehend the words of Christ:“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

Moon,

As has been stated to you over and over and over again, it is truly amazing how, as an admitted fallible interpreter of Scripture, you keep trying to pass off your interpretations as infallible.

Admit it Moon, you don’t know and you don’t know that you don’t know.

 

[moondweller]

Im sure it is frustrating for you to engage with me but ad hominems do nothing to further your arguments, cause or reputation. Let’s try to stick to the facts, OK?

It’s not an ad hominem. It’s a fact stated.

For the same reason you and cannot coherently discuss salvation, you and I cannot coherently discuss righteousness. You believe it to be a permanent attribute at the moment of faith and I do not. Inheriting the kingdom of God/Heaven, however, we both agree is permanent when we get there.

On what objective basis do you believe it’s permanent once you get there?

That is why I purposely chose to discuss inheriting the kingdom. I do not wish to “import” our biases on “being saved” and “righteousness” into the discussion.

Translated, you want to avoid all Scriptures that explicitly teach the believer’s salvation (by grace through faith) and justification (credited righteousness) by faith alone. You can’t handle it. It doesn’t fit you works oriented soteriology. Or what Christ, the Sin-bearer, accomplished, once for all, on the cross regarding sin.

If inheriting the kingdom is by faith alone, then Scripture should say so and it should avoid saying things that directly contradict that claim.

It does. It doesn’t.

So I am not interested in importing your “salvation theology” from Romans or Collossians or anywhere else. Im interested in these very clear letters from Paul which discuss inheriting the Kingdom of God. Are we clear?

Yes, IOW, let’s just forget about what God reveals regarding salvation and justification for one’s entrance into the kingdom, and let’s just stick to behavioral teachings, and let’s all just agree that one’s entrance into heaven is based on a child’s behavior. That’s called WORKS, my friend. It’s called a WORKS gospel. And yet all of you deny it.

Well if Christ’s atonement covers those sins, and believers who, according to you are still “in the flesh” will have moral lapses and commit those sins just as unbelievers will, then why does Christ use those sins as the means of identifying the unrighteous rather than say, “faithless”, or “unbeliever”??? Still unanswered MD.

I never said believers are “still in the flesh.” I would never say that. It’s anti-Scriptural. It’s against Paul’s teaching. Believers still “have” the flesh, but they are not “in the flesh.” There’s a BIG difference. But this also will go straight over your head because it has to do with the believer’s revealed, new identity in Christ which you cannot comprehend:Rom 8:8-9 “…and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

If - as you maintain - the unrighteous are so merely from unbelief and not from sins of idolatry, then Paul mis-spoke and his entire detracts from the message of faith alone.

No, it’s not Paul who misspeaks, it’s you. An unbeliever is unrighteous before God because he refuses to believe in the One through whom God Himself reckons (credits) His own righteousness (Rom. 4:1-6).

It is NOT “who is an idolater”, but, “that is, an idolater”.

Same thing. You have no argument.

I know. Once you fall into idolatry you are no longer a true believer and you forfeit - unless you repent - your inheritance in the kingdom of God.

An Idolater has never believed. But Peter says of the believer, no longer in Adam, but born again in Christ, the Last Adam, through faith:1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."Are you allowed to disagree with someone you call your first “Pope?” Shouldn’t the teachings of all your subsequent Popes (and you) be in agreement with your first Pope? How can this be?

Wouldnt it be great to go off on this rabbit trail instead of dealing with the clear scripture at hand regarding inheriting the kingdom of God/Heaven? :nope:

You have your “clear scripture” regarding inheriting the kingdom of God in the above quote from the one you call your first Pope. Now you need to deal with it.

I do not want to discuss “being saved”, becoming righteous, becoming a child of God or any such talk because you and I disagree on the implications of each.

That’s because you disagree with the Scriptures that teach that one’s entrance into the kingdom of God is based on one’s present salvation, imputed righteousness and becoming a child of God by believing in Christ alone. But instead you want to believe entrance is based on WORKS alone. IOW, one’s future entrance is based on one’s present behavior.

Your argument is not with me but with the one you call your first Pope.

Lets return to Galatians 5 and see if Paul warns the saved believers about losing their inheritance…

Good luck on that. You still have to deal with Peter and his “papal” teaching…

 

[Tomster]

It’s not an ad hominem. It’s a fact stated.On what objective basis do you believe it’s permanent once you get there?Translated, you want to avoid all Scriptures that explicitly teach the believer’s salvation (by grace through faith) and justification (credited righteousness) by faith alone. You can’t handle it. It doesn’t fit you works oriented soteriology. Or what Christ, the Sin-bearer, accomplished, once for all, on the cross regarding sin.It does. It doesn’t.Yes, IOW, let’s just forget about what God reveals regarding salvation and justification for one’s entrance into the kingdom, and let’s just stick to behavioral teachings, and let’s all just agree that one’s entrance into heaven is based on a child’s behavior. That’s called WORKS, my friend. It’s called a WORKS gospel. And yet all of you deny it.I never said believers are “still in the flesh.” I would never say that. It’s anti-Scriptural. It’s against Paul’s teaching. Believers still “have” the flesh, but they are not “in the flesh.” There’s a BIG difference. But this also will go straight over your head because it has to do with the believer’s revealed, new identity in Christ which you cannot comprehend:Rom 8:8-9 "…and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."No, it’s not Paul who misspeaks, it’s you. An unbeliever is unrighteous before God because he refuses to believe in the One through whom God Himself reckons (credits) His own righteousness (Rom. 4:1-6).Same thing. You have no argument.An Idolater has never believed. But Peter says of the believer, no longer in Adam, but born again in Christ, the Last Adam, through faith:1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."Are you allowed to disagree with someone you call your first “Pope?” Shouldn’t the teachings of all your subsequent Popes (and you) be in agreement with your first Pope? How can this be?You have your “clear scripture” regarding inheriting the kingdom of God in the above quote from the one you call your first Pope. Now you need to deal with it.That’s because you disagree with the Scriptures that teach that one’s entrance into the kingdom of God is based on one’s present salvation, imputed righteousness and becoming a child of God by believing in Christ alone. But instead you want to believe entrance is based on WORKS alone. IOW, one’s future entrance is based on one’s present behavior.

Your argument is not with me but with the one you call your first Pope.Good luck on that. You still have to deal with Peter and his “papal” teaching…

More fallible interpretations Moon? :yawn:

 

[paul_c]

But Peter says of the believer, no longer in Adam, but born again in Christ, the Last Adam, through faith:1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."Are you allowed to disagree with someone you call your first “Pope?” Shouldn’t the teachings of all your subsequent Popes (and you) be in agreement with your first Pope? How can this be?You have your “clear scripture” regarding inheriting the kingdom of God in the above quote from the one you call your first Pope. Now you need to deal with it.That’s because you disagree with the Scriptures that teach that one’s entrance into the kingdom of God is based on one’s present salvation, imputed righteousness and becoming a child of God by believing in Christ alone. But instead you want to believe entrance is based on WORKS alone. IOW, one’s future entrance is based on one’s present behavior.

Your argument is not with me but with the one you call your first Pope.Good luck on that. You still have to deal with Peter and his “papal” teaching…

Moondweller, do you even read the Bible, or just isolated passages from some book of quotes. Had you read the entire fist letter of Peter instead of stopping at line 5, you would have found these statements:
1Peter 1: 13 Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, live soberly, and set your hopes completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance
15 but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct,
16 for it is written, “Be holy because I (am) holy.”
17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,
18 realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold
19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb

So as usual, you stopped reading ater you heard what you wanted, that we are saved through faith. But there’s more, isn’t there. He calls us to **be **B]holy and he recognizes that we will be judged according to our works. But wait, there’s more:

verse 22: Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart

oh but still more : Chapter 2 starts with this:
1 Rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, insincerity, envy, and all slander;
2 like newborn infants, long for pure spiritual milk so that through it you may grow into salvation,
3 for you have tasted that the Lord is good
So obviously sin matters. oh and this is verse 11 :
Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against the soul

So Peter is also is telling true believers that worldly desires wage war against the soul. This contradicts your view of OSAS, doesn’t it… and still he adds to it in chapter 3:
8 Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble.
9 Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing.
10 For: “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep the tongue from evil and the lips from speaking deceit,
11 must turn from evil and do good, seek peace and follow after it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against evildoers.”
And he continues:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

So now he says baptism saves you because it is an apeal to God for a clear conscience. (i.e forgiveness of sins) This is exactly what the church teaches but what you deny.

 

[paul_c]

Moving into chapter 4, Peter says:
17 For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, how will it end for those who fail to obey the gospel of God?
18 “And if the righteous one is barely saved, where will the godless and the sinner appear.
19 As a result, those who suffer in accord with God’s will hand their souls over to a faithful creator as they do good?”
So now he says that judgement will begin with the believers. Yet you maintain that you are already saved. Seems that Peter is contradicting you again.

So it seems that as opposed to what you claimed from your single passage, Catholic teaching is completely in sync with what Peter preaches while you are diametrically opposed to his message.

To repeat what I have been telling you. Sure, faith is required for salvation, but so is baptism, good works, love, and holiness. And unlike what you believe, Peter is clear that your slavation can be lost if you don’t persist in these things. Take that to heart.

 

[Pax]

MD in Christ,

When you get a chance please address post #632.

Thanks

 

[paul_c]

MD in Christ,

When you get a chance please address post #632.

Thanks

The odds of this happening are not high… He feels no obligation to answer our questions, nor should he. He has a lot of people to deal .

 

[moondweller]

Moon in Christ,

When you get a chance please give an answer to my questions.

Will a “true believer” that later engages in unrepentant fornication go to heaven?

The answer is yes. But you don’t need the word “unrepentant” in there. A “true believer” who engages in fornication WILL go to heaven upon death. Why does that surprise you? Do you deny that that sin of fornication was imputed to Christ on the cross and He died to it once for all?

The issue of salvation is not sin, but belief. Should a “true believer” engage in such an act. Of course not. Should a “true believer” grieve the Holy Spirit who indwells him by engaging in such an act? Of course not. It it proper behavior for a “true believer?” Of course not. It is the norm for a “true believer?” Of course not. You ask that question because you believe that it’s your behavior that will save you (future tense).

Do you deny that grace inspired faith is needed for your future salvation and continual justification?

According to the Scriptures “have been saved” by grace through faith. Not, I “will be” saved by faith. You have no concept of the word “saved” because for the Catholic salvation is a process. Your future salvation will be based on your present performance.

I am not being continually justified. I was justified (reckoned righteousness) at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ. I am now and forevermore clothed in His righteousness. You see, Pax, it’s by His doing that I am in Christ Jesus who became to me wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, and so just as it is written, I boast in the Lord (1 Cor 1:30-31) and not my works, nor my own righteousness, nor my own piety, nor my own purity.

 

[panevino]

john 15:6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. …9As a Father hath loved me, so have I loved you; continue ye in my love 10**If **ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

heb 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax
Moon in Christ,

It surprises us because this view is specifically denied by St. Paul in Galatians 5:

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul is clearly speaking to believers in Galatia in this Epistle so he condemns your position of OSAS.

He told the same thing to the believers in Corinth in 1Corinthians6 :
9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So, tell me, should we believe you or St. Paul in the divinely inspired scripture?

Do you deny that that sin of fornication was imputed to Christ on the cross and He died to it once for all?

Are you seriously trying to say that Jesus died on the cross so that we could all be fornicators and still go to heaven?

The issue of salvation is not sin, but belief. Should a “true believer” engage in such an act. Of course not. Should a “true believer” grieve the Holy Spirit who indwells him by engaging in such an act? Of course not. It it proper behavior for a “true believer?” Of course not. It is the norm for a “true believer?” Of course not. You ask that question because you believe that it’s your behavior that will save you (future tense).

Moondweller, what is faith to you. Is it simply believing that God will save you if you believe that he should? This is wishful thinking and denies that God is just. Paul warned the Corinthians about overconfident in 1Corinthians 10:
1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea,
2 and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 All ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ.
5 Yet God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert.
6 These things happened as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil things, as they did.
7 and do not become idolaters, as some of them did, as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to revel.”
8 Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell within a single day.
9 Let us not test Christ as some of them did, and suffered death by serpents.
10 Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer.
11 These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come.
12 Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.
13 No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Do you deny that grace inspired faith is needed for your future salvation and continual justification

It also says you need to follow the commandments, be baptized, partake of the eucharist, love one another, persevere in good works, and do works of mercy to inherit the kingdom of God. But you ignore all those requirements, remembering only that which is convenient to you.

. Not, I “will be” saved by faith.

No, we are saved by Faith. but there is more to it than simply believing. that is just the entry point to the sacred life that leads to heaven.

You have no concept of the word “saved” because for the Catholic salvation is a process.

No we understand the concept of Saved completely. When someone pulls you out of the ocean of sin, you are saved. But that doesn’t’ preclude you from jumping back in and needing to be saved again.

Your future salvation will be based on your present performance.

Actually no. This is more proof that you haven’t got a clue about what Catholicism teaches, no matter what you say to the contrary. Your salvation is the result of Grace. you get in the state of grace by getting baptized. You stay in the state of grace by doing God’s will (loving God and neighbor) and avoiding serious (mortal) sin. If you do fall from grace through sin, you can be reconciled to God sacramentally, if you desire it and are repentant. If you die in the state of Grace, you will go to heaven, although you may spend time in pergatory in route to heaven to be cleansed of your sinful ways.

I am not being continually justified.

That is indeed a shame.

I was justified (reckoned righteousness) at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ.

were you baptized or was that too much effort?

I am now and forevermore clothed in His righteousness.

This could be true, if you avoid sin and stay in grace. Or it could be false, if you commit mortal sin.

You see, Pax, it’s by His doing that I am in Christ Jesus who became to me wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, and so just as it is written, I boast in the Lord (1 Cor 1:30-31) and not my works, nor my own righteousness, nor my own piety, nor my own purity.

You will never, ever hear a devout Catholic boast of his works, righteousness, piety or purity. The closer you come to God, the more you understand your limitations.

 

[Tomster]

MD in Christ,

Will a “true believer” that later engages in unrepentant fornication go to heaven?

Thanks,

Pax

The correct answer is no for the wages of sin is death.

Let us take a look at a word that Moondweller constantly refers to in his attempt to justify his position regarding eternal security. That word is theopneustos. The English term inspiration comes from St. Jerome’s Vulgate translation of a word in 2 Timothy 3:16: “All Scripture is inspired by God (Vulgate, divinus inspirata for the Greek, theopneustos - “God breathed” or “the breath of God”) and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living.”

Bearing the above in mind, let us now look at some other passages from Scripture.

First, the power to forgive sins was promised to the Apostles and their successors. Speaking to Peter alone, Christ says (Matthew 16:19): “And whatsoever thou shall bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven.” Sometime later when speaking to all the apostles including Peter, Christ says (Matthew 18:18): “Amen I say to you whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose in upon earth, shall also be loosed in heaven.”

It is dogmatically certain that these texts mean that Christ promised to the apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins. A question at this point to Moon would be: Why do you suppose that Christ gave the apostles the power to forgive sins?

Continuing, and this is very important, Christ actually conferred the power to forgive sins on the evening of His Resurrection (John 20:21-23): “He [the Lord] said therefore to them: Peace be to you. As the Father has sent Me, I also send you. When He had said this, HE BREATHED ON THEM [emphasis mine]; and He said to them: RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST [again, emphasis mine] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” GOD BREATHED POWER WAS ACTUALLY GIVEN TO THE APOSTLES TO FORGIVE SINS.

Again, a question to Moon, which will probably never be answered, is why do you suppose that Christ gave the apostles the GOD BREATHED power to forgive sins?

Continuing, what is the one sin that will never be forgiven? THE SIN AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST (Matthew 12:31), of course.

Now, a question to all who have participated on this thread. Can it be said that by denying the power of the Holy Ghost, GOD BREATHED to the apostles by Christ to forgive sins, be considered a sin against the Holy Ghost?

 

[moondweller]

It surprises us because this view is specifically denied by St. Paul in Galatians 5:

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul is clearly speaking to believers in Galatia in this Epistle so he condemns your position of OSAS.

Those verses aren’t on salvation, on how to become saved. He’s talking to believers who are ALREADY saved. He’s contrasting the FRUIT of the Spirit vs. the DEEDS of the flesh. And he tells them to walk by the Spirit and they will not carry out the desire of the flesh (5:16). In 5:13 he instructs them that they (Galatian believers) were called to freedom in Christ. IOW, not in bondage to the principle of law and works. But, he says, don’t turn your freedom into an OPPORTUNITY for the flesh, but in love serve one another.

As I pointed out to “Philthy,” the true believer still has the flesh, being yet in these unredeemed bodies, but positionally he is NOT “in the flesh” (Rom. 8:9) and therefore has the power to make a choice as to walk by the Spirit (who now indwells him) or by the flesh. This is the choice of the SAVED, not the unsaved (the unsaved have no power to make this choice, they don’t have the Spirit within them). It is not the message of salvation (the gospel), but instruction regarding experiential sanctification for the saved.

Gal. 5:13-26 are experiential sanctification words, not soteriological words. They’re not instruction on how to BE saved, nor on how to maintain salvation. The problem is that to the Catholic every instruction on behavior is a condition for salvation because (1) yours is a works-based religion, not faith-based, (2) your religion has no concept of saved. It does not believe that God has the power to save anyone perfectly, by grace through faith, based on Christ’s finished work on the cross.

He told the same thing to the believers in Corinth in 1Corinthians6 : 9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So, tell me, should we believe you or St. Paul in the divinely inspired scripture?

Yes, and what he says is absolutely true. But he’s not identifying the Corinthian believers as these. He goes on to say:1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Are you seriously trying to say that Jesus died on the cross so that we could all be fornicators and still go to heaven?

No, He died with the sin of fornication put on Him so that the one who sinned that sin and believed in Him would be forgiven of that sin (and cleansed of all others), and would therefore go to heaven.

Moondweller, what is faith to you. Is it simply believing that God will save you if you believe that he should?

Faith to me is believing in Christ. I believe in what Christ DID and what God says He has the power to do based on what HE did. Faith to me is believing God’s word and what it says concerning belief in Christ and salvation.

This is wishful thinking and denies that God is just.

Not at all. The fact is, God is just and He cannot deny His justice. Hence, He sent the Son into this world via the incarnation to be the propitiation for our sins. This you don’t believe.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, and many, many times before: the forgiveness of God toward sinners is not an immediate act of grace on His part, but it is rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that his debt has been PAID, in full (on the cross, by the shedding of blood), by Another (Col. 2:13-14). The righteous basis for God to forgive sins, and to forgive them perfectly, was provided in the cross (this you don’t believe).

Therefore, the Divine message of the “gospel” (good news) is that sinners are to be told that they may now stand forever pardoned before God: NOT because God is gracious enough to excuse their sins; but because there is plentiful redemption through the blood that has been shed (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 21:7). Hence, because of the cross God is free to forgive because through the cross of Christ His justice was met, i.e, satisfied, and He is now free to forgive, and to forgive perfectly. But this you do not believe. But I do. This is what faith is to me. I don’t merely believe God saved me, I believe HOW He did it, according to His Word. I believe in Him, because (like Abraham in Gen. 15:6) I believe His Word concerning Christ, and I rejoice in it.

 

[Tomster]

Those verses aren’t on salvation, on how to become saved. He’s talking to believers who are ALREADY saved. He’s contrasting the FRUIT of the Spirit vs. the DEEDS of the flesh. And he tells them to walk by the Spirit and they will not carry out the desire of the flesh (5:16). In 5:13 he instructs them that they (Galatian believers) were called to freedom in Christ. IOW, not in bondage to the principle of law and works. But, he says, don’t turn your freedom into an OPPORTUNITY for the flesh, but in love serve one another.

As I pointed out to “Philthy,” the true believer still has the flesh, being yet in these unredeemed bodies, but positionally he is NOT “in the flesh” (Rom. 8:9) and therefore has the power to make a choice as to walk by the Spirit (who now indwells him) or by the flesh. This is the choice of the SAVED, not the unsaved (the unsaved have no power to make this choice, they don’t have the Spirit within them). It is not the message of salvation (the gospel), but instruction regarding experiential sanctification for the saved.

Gal. 5:13-26 are experiential sanctification words, not soteriological words. They’re not instruction on how to BE saved, nor on how to maintain salvation. The problem is that to the Catholic every instruction on behavior is a condition for salvation because (1) yours is a works-based religion, not faith-based, (2) your religion has no concept of saved. It does not believe that God has the power to save anyone perfectly, by grace through faith, based on Christ’s finished work on the cross.Yes, and what he says is absolutely true. But he’s not identifying the Corinthian believers as these. He goes on to say:1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."No, He died with the sin of fornication put on Him so that the one who sinned that sin and believed in Him would be forgiven of that sin (and cleansed of all others), and would therefore go to heaven.Faith to me is believing in Christ. I believe in what Christ DID and what God says He has the power to do based on what HE did. Faith to me is believing God’s word and what it says concerning belief in Christ and salvation.Not at all. The fact is, God is just and He cannot deny His justice. Hence, He sent the Son into this world via the incarnation to be the propitiation for our sins. This you don’t believe.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, and many, many times before: the forgiveness of God toward sinners is not an immediate act of grace on His part, but it is rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that his debt has been PAID, in full (on the cross, by the shedding of blood), by Another (Col. 2:13-14). The righteous basis for God to forgive sins, and to forgive them perfectly, was provided in the cross (this you don’t believe).

Therefore, the Divine message of the “gospel” (good news) is that sinners are to be told that they may now stand forever pardoned before God: NOT because God is gracious enough to excuse their sins; but because there is plentiful redemption through the blood that has been shed (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 21:7). Hence, because of the cross God is free to forgive because through the cross of Christ His justice was met, i.e, satisfied, and He is now free to forgive, and to forgive perfectly. But this you do not believe. But I do. This is what faith is to me. I don’t merely believe God saved me, I believe HOW He did it, according to His Word. I believe in Him, because (like Abraham in Gen. 15:6) I believe His Word concerning Christ, and I rejoice in it.

Moon,

As with so many other things, you have failed to address the biblical fact that Jesus gave the Apostles the GOD BREATHED power to forgive post-baptismal sins.

Why do you think Jesus gave the apostles this power?

Remember Moon, the Bible tells us that Jesus BREATHED on the apostles and told them to receive the Holy Spirit in order that they may either forgive or retain sins. Quite an awesome power don’t you think?

Or do you deny that Holy Spirit has the power to do this?

Or do you deny that Jesus had the power to give the Holy Spirit to the apostles to forgive or retain sins?

But then, by your own man made theology and your views regarding personal sin, we know that your answers to my last two questions are yes, you do deny both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Pity!