Faith alone or not?

[Tomster]

Sure, Luther gave a detaild explanation of why he added Alone. its here in German and english:bible-researcher.com/luther01.html

Have you read it? Do you find it compelling that he calls his Catholic ccritics “Asses” and asserts he knows better than all of them? Do you find it compelling when he admits to knowing that the word Alone isn’t in the original text but that the context demanded it?
And sure it was demanded by the Context, “IF” your point was to defend a new theology.
In his words:
But I will return to the subject at hand. If your papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word sola (alone), say this to him: “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and he says that a papist and a donkey are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. (2) For we are not going to be students and disciples of the papists. Rather, we will become their teachers and judges. For once, we also are going to be proud and brag, with these blockheads; and just as Paul brags against his mad raving saints, I will brag against these donkeys of mine! Are they doctors? So am I. Are they scholars? So am I. Are they preachers? So am I. Are they theologians? So am I. Are they debaters? So am I. Are they philosophers? So am I. Are they logicians? So am I. Do they lecture? So do I. Do they write books? So do I.

and:
let this be the answer to your first question. Please do not give these donkeys any other answer to their useless braying about that word sola than simply this: “Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the doctors of the pope.” Let it rest there. I will from now on hold them in contempt, and have already held them in contempt, as long as they are the kind of people (or rather donkeys) that they are. And there are brazen idiots among them who have never even learned their own art of sophistry, like Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Snot-Nose, (4) and such like them, who set themselves against me in this matter, which not only transcends sophistry, but as Paul writes, all the wisdom and understanding in the world as well. Truly a donkey does not have to sing much, because he is already known by his ears.

And I found the same Reformed Apologetics article you apparently used. beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html It lists all those sources with one line quotes without describing the context of the discussion. Thus it must be when you are twisting the truth.

OUTSTANDING

Thank you paul!

 

[ignatius777]

OUTSTANDING

Thank you paul!

Its clear from all indications that Luther suffered from some mental disorder.

 

[Tomster]

Makes sense to me…lets see what MD has to say. I wonder if I will get answers to my questions

In response to your question, if I were a bettin’ man, I would say NO WAY JOSE!

Moon lacks reliable resources to answer the tough questions. Since he is a sola scripture advocate, all that he can ultimately depend on to answer our questions is the bible and his fallible interpretations of them. Oh, he will appeal to the man made traditions of his spiritual forefathers, Luther et. al., but even when he does this he is not only destroying his own belief in sola scriptura he is setting himself up to have to contend with the contradictions his spiritual forefathers thrust on an unsuspecting mass of people. This is the unbelievable burden he has accepted as dogma as put forth by his Protestant fore-fathers - The dogma of private judgment of Sacred Scriptures.

He has painted himself into corner and the paint ain’t ever gonna dry.

 

[Tomster]

Its clear from all indications that Luther suffered from some mental disorder.

Yes, it does.

 

[moondweller]

From my reading of scripture a “dead” faith is one absent of works. Is that your understanding as well?

Can a person be saved with “dead” faith?

No, a person (in context) cannot be saved through a mere “said” faith (Ja. 2:14). This is the CONTEXT of James’ whole argument. Many SAY they have faith in Christ, but actually trust in their own piety, their own works, their church hierarchy, their religious system. But the object of faith in the N.T. for salvation, even Divinely reckoned righteousness, is Christ alone. His Person and sacrificial work. Jesus always pointed to Himself as the source of eternal life (never a church or men); and He said that the one who believes in Him “HAS” it (eternal life, Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24). John himself never deviated from that same basic message about Christ in his Epistles: 1 Jn. 5:9-13. .

The difference is a mere, religious “said” faith vs. a true faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Faith, by definition, has an object (outside one’s self), and the Object of one’s faith makes all the difference when it comes to salvation and reckoned Divine righteousness. The Scriptures are very clear on this point. But men refuse to believe it (or, in Him).

Again, the CONTEXT of James’ argument is a mere “said” faith vs. a true faith, which produces and demonstrates works. Hence, a mere “said” faith is dead. Nevertheless, James does not conclude that one is SAVED by works but that his faith can be demonstrated by works:James 2:18 "But someone may say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Abraham, whom God justified because he believed in Him (Gen. 15:6; cf Rom. 4:1-6), later demonstrated a mature faith (which matured over 20 years) by willing to sacrifice his only son (according to promise). We know why he was willing to sacrifice Isaac as stated in Heb 11:19;"He considered that God is able to raise {people} even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type."It’s a “type,” a picture of Christ and the Father giving Him up to sacrifice. As Abraham said to Isaac, “God will provide His own sacrifice.”

Abraham believed God’s Word some 20 years prior about a promised son through whom God’s covenant with Abraham would be fulfilled. Hence, by faith, he knew that God would raise Isaac up from the dead.

You see, that’s the faith by which God reckons righteous the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5). Not by one’s “righteous” works; not by a mere “said” faith, but a faith that believes GOD’S Word concerning His Son and His sacrificial death on his behalf. Not the words of men, nor the works of men. But faith in Christ alone.

It’s still based on “promise.” Hence it requires faith. Abraham believed what God said He would DO, and God credited that faith in Him TO HIM as righteousness. IOW, He justified him based on faith ALONE. This side of the cross we’re to believe the Apostolic message of what God has DONE in and through the work of His beloved Son, Whom He delivered over to sacrifice and raised up from the dead, and that which is promised through Him: forgiveness of all sins; redemption; reconciliation; propitiation; sanctification; glorification and eternal life. And God Himself, as with Abraham, justifies him who believes by that faith ALONE:Rom 3:27-28 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."You stumble over the simplicity of it.

 

[Cat_Herder]

That’s a silly statement.

Abraham was not saved through faith in Christ because Christ had not yet been revealed.

You cannot answer that assertion. All you can do is call me names.

 

[ignatius777]

No, a person (in context) cannot be saved through a mere “said” faith (Ja. 2:14). This is the CONTEXT of James’ whole argument. Many SAY they have faith in Christ, but actually trust in their own piety, their own works, their church hierarchy, their religious system. But the object of faith in the N.T. for salvation, even Divinely reckoned righteousness, is Christ alone. His Person and sacrificial work. Jesus always pointed to Himself as the source of eternal life (never a church or men); and He said that the one who believes in Him “HAS” it (eternal life, Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24). John himself never deviated from that same basic message about Christ in his Epistles: 1 Jn. 5:9-13. .

The difference is a mere, religious “said” faith vs. a true faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Faith, by definition, has an object (outside one’s self), and the Object of one’s faith makes all the difference when it comes to salvation and reckoned Divine righteousness. The Scriptures are very clear on this point. But men refuse to believe it (or, in Him).

Again, the CONTEXT of James’ argument is a mere “said” faith vs. a true faith, which produces and demonstrates works. Hence, a mere “said” faith is dead. Nevertheless, James does not conclude that one is SAVED by works but that his faith can be demonstrated by works:James 2:18 "But someone may say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Abraham, whom God justified because he believed in Him (Gen. 15:6; cf Rom. 4:1-6), later demonstrated a mature faith (which matured over 20 years) by willing to sacrifice his only son (according to promise). We know why he was willing to sacrifice Isaac as stated in Heb 11:19;"He considered that God is able to raise {people} even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type."It’s a “type,” a picture of Christ and the Father giving Him up to sacrifice. As Abraham said to Isaac, “God will provide His own sacrifice.”

Abraham believed God’s Word some 20 years prior about a promised son through whom God’s covenant with Abraham would be fulfilled. Hence, by faith, he knew that God would raise Isaac up from the dead.

You see, that’s the faith by which God reckons righteous the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5). Not by one’s “righteous” works; not by a mere “said” faith, but a faith that believes GOD’S Word concerning His Son and His sacrificial death on his behalf. Not the words of men, nor the works of men. But faith in Christ alone.

It’s still based on “promise.” Hence it requires faith. Abraham believed what God said He would DO, and God credited that faith in Him TO HIM as righteousness. IOW, He justified him based on faith ALONE. This side of the cross we’re to believe the Apostolic message of what God has DONE in and through the work of His beloved Son, Whom He delivered over to sacrifice and raised up from the dead, and that which is promised through Him: forgiveness of all sins; redemption; reconciliation; propitiation; sanctification; glorification and eternal life. And God Himself, as with Abraham, justifies him who believes by that faith ALONE:Rom 3:27-28 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."You stumble over the simplicity of it.

So you do believe faith without works is dead and dead faith can not save us, correct?

The only time I see “faith” and “alone” together is when it teaches us that not how we are saved. If scripture is direct enough to tell how we arent saved shouldnt it be more important to tells us HOW we are are saved (by faith alone)???

BTW it is VERY simple “…we are saved by works and not by faith alone”. You so correct it is so very simple

 

[Cat_Herder]

The difference is a mere, religious “said” faith vs. a true faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Faith, by definition, has an object (outside one’s self), and the Object of one’s faith makes all the difference when it comes to salvation and reckoned Divine righteousness. The Scriptures are very clear on this point. But men refuse to believe it (or, in Him).

Then Abraham cannot be saved because the object of his faith was NOT Jesus Christ, Who had yet to be revealed.

But James says that Abraham is saved.

So you’re done.

 

[ignatius777]

No, a person (in context) cannot be saved through a mere “said” faith (Ja. 2:14). This is the CONTEXT of James’ whole argument. Many SAY they have faith in Christ, but actually trust in their own piety, their own works, their church hierarchy, their religious system. But the object of faith in the N.T. for salvation, even Divinely reckoned righteousness, is Christ alone. His Person and sacrificial work. Jesus always pointed to Himself as the source of eternal life (never a church or men); and He said that the one who believes in Him “HAS” it (eternal life, Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24). John himself never deviated from that same basic message about Christ in his Epistles: 1 Jn. 5:9-13. .

The difference is a mere, religious “said” faith vs. a true faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Faith, by definition, has an object (outside one’s self), and the Object of one’s faith makes all the difference when it comes to salvation and reckoned Divine righteousness. The Scriptures are very clear on this point. But men refuse to believe it (or, in Him).

Again, the CONTEXT of James’ argument is a mere “said” faith vs. a true faith, which produces and demonstrates works. Hence, a mere “said” faith is dead. Nevertheless, James does not conclude that one is SAVED by works but that his faith can be demonstrated by works:James 2:18 "But someone may say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Abraham, whom God justified because he believed in Him (Gen. 15:6; cf Rom. 4:1-6), later demonstrated a mature faith (which matured over 20 years) by willing to sacrifice his only son (according to promise). We know why he was willing to sacrifice Isaac as stated in Heb 11:19;"He considered that God is able to raise {people} even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type."It’s a “type,” a picture of Christ and the Father giving Him up to sacrifice. As Abraham said to Isaac, “God will provide His own sacrifice.”

Abraham believed God’s Word some 20 years prior about a promised son through whom God’s covenant with Abraham would be fulfilled. Hence, by faith, he knew that God would raise Isaac up from the dead.

You see, that’s the faith by which God reckons righteous the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5). Not by one’s “righteous” works; not by a mere “said” faith, but a faith that believes GOD’S Word concerning His Son and His sacrificial death on his behalf. Not the words of men, nor the works of men. But faith in Christ alone.

It’s still based on “promise.” Hence it requires faith. Abraham believed what God said He would DO, and God credited that faith in Him TO HIM as righteousness. IOW, He justified him based on faith ALONE. This side of the cross we’re to believe the Apostolic message of what God has DONE in and through the work of His beloved Son, Whom He delivered over to sacrifice and raised up from the dead, and that which is promised through Him: forgiveness of all sins; redemption; reconciliation; propitiation; sanctification; glorification and eternal life. And God Himself, as with Abraham, justifies him who believes by that faith ALONE:Rom 3:27-28 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."You stumble over the simplicity of it.

Its funny how the sola fida types ALWAYS say we take James out of context even though the words are clearly present for all to read.

A “said” faith as you called it is useless for our salvation, correct? Faith with works is REAL faith right? So REAL faith (faith AND works) is useful for salvation. So faith alone can not saves us just as James tells us.

May I suggest you work on identifying the differences between whats “necessary” for salvation and whats “sufficient” for salvation.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The difference is a mere, religious “said” faith vs. a true faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Faith, by definition, has an object (outside one’s self), and the Object of one’s faith makes all the difference when it comes to salvation and reckoned Divine righteousness. The Scriptures are very clear on this point. But men refuse to believe it (or, in Him).

Again, the CONTEXT of James’ argument is a mere “said” faith vs. a true faith, which produces and demonstrates works. Hence, a mere “said” faith is dead. Nevertheless, James does not conclude that one is SAVED by works but that his faith can be demonstrated by works:James 2:18 “But someone may say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Then Abraham cannot be saved because the object of his faith was NOT Jesus Christ, Who had yet to be revealed.

So you try to fudge that problem:

Abraham, whom God justified because he believed in Him (Gen. 15:6; cf Rom. 4:1-6), later demonstrated a mature faith (which matured over 20 years) by willing to sacrifice his only son (according to promise). We know why he was willing to sacrifice Isaac as stated in Heb 11:19;"He considered that God is able to raise {people} even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type."It’s a “type,” a picture of Christ and the Father giving Him up to sacrifice. As Abraham said to Isaac, “God will provide His own sacrifice.”

You have put the cart before the horse; you have admitted that Abraham was saved by works in addition to faith, namely obedience to God, more specifically, his near sacrifice of his own son. He worked out his faith with fear and trembling.

Abraham believed God’s Word some 20 years prior about a promised son through whom God’s covenant with Abraham would be fulfilled. Hence, by faith, he knew that God would raise Isaac up from the dead.

Here you are claiming that simple faith in an almighty God who can raise the dead is sufficient for salvation (as you must, since Abraham had no way of knowing Christ). James correctly noted that even demons such as Osama bin Laden have such faith. Bin Laden, of course, believes–has faith–that his sacrifice of himself (with a suicide bomb) will be enough to gain him resurrection into heaven and a harem of vestal virgins. You aren’t seriously claiming that he’s right, are you?

As noted above, what distinguished Abraham from bin Laden was Abraham’s works. Abraham was an obedient man who raised up a generation pleasing to God. Bin Laden is a terrorist and serial killer.

You see, that’s the faith by which God reckons righteous the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5). Not by one’s “righteous” works; not by a mere “said” faith, but a faith that believes GOD’S Word concerning His Son and His sacrificial death on his behalf. Not the words of men, nor the works of men. But faith in Christ alone.

Again… You cannot simultaneously claim that Abraham was saved by faith alone and that salvation is through Christ alone; Abraham had no recourse to Christ. Abraham didn’t have a time machine.

But we do have a means to travel back to Calvary. It’s called the Mass.

 

[ignatius777]

Then Abraham cannot be saved because the object of his faith was NOT Jesus Christ, Who had yet to be revealed.

So you try to fudge that problem:

You have put the cart before the horse; you have admitted that Abraham was saved by works in addition to faith, namely obedience to God, more specifically, his near sacrifice of his own son. He worked out his faith with fear and trembling.

Here you are claiming that simple faith in an almighty God who can raise the dead is sufficient for salvation (as you must, since Abraham had no way of knowing Christ). James correctly noted that even demons such as Osama bin Laden have such faith. Bin Laden, of course, believes–has faith–that his sacrifice of himself (with a suicide bomb) will be enough to gain him resurrection into heaven and a harem of vestal virgins. You aren’t seriously claiming that he’s right, are you?

As noted above, what distinguished Abraham from bin Laden was Abraham’s works. Abraham was an obedient man who raised up a generation pleasing to God. Bin Laden is a terrorist and serial killer.

Again… You cannot simultaneously claim that Abraham was saved by faith alone and that salvation is through Christ alone; Abraham had no recourse to Christ. Abraham didn’t have a time machine.

But we do have a means to travel back to Calvary. It’s called the Mass.

MOST EXCELLENT!!! I especailly love the last line…so true!

 

[LittleSoldier]

That’s a silly statement.Another silly statement.They can. They just need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and they will be saved (Act 16:30-31; Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24).Nothing:John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."There is no other way, and it’s by faith alone in Christ alone.

MD, Satan certainly believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. So is he saved?

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by moondweller

For your convenience, I am reposting my last post to you that you again as with the others, have avoided;

To coin your wording consider the word you use here: “optimism” (according to Oxford English Dictionary) is having "hopefulness and confidence about the future or successful outcome of something; a tendency to take a favorable or hopeful view”, not certainties or guarantees.

Now continue further into the same passage you quoted and misinterpreted as a guarantee of salvation regardless of any conditions:

1 Peter CH1; 6 “In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
　
It is a living hope, yes. And yes, we walk by faith. But it is not faith that is uncertain but rather our future in grace due to our human weaknesses and the possibility of falling. Neither optimism nor hope promise the outcome. Only the proof of our faith overcoming our weaknesses unto mortal death and no one is free of sin or weaknesses.

Again, now continue further into this same passage you quoted here and keep all in context:

*1 John CH3; 6 “No one who remains *in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him.”

“Remains” refers to those who have accepted Him and been recognized as in the body of the faithful, yet “remains” validates there is the possibility of separating oneself or falling away from Him.

Further in the same passage;
16 “…The way we came to know love was that he laid down his life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him? 18 Children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth.

“Deed” and “Truth” are the “works” we refer to, the works of love for our brothers and sisters in charity and humility in love of God. This is unified and further explained with Matthew CH25 as I quoted previously. This is what you object to when you hear Catholics refer to the “works” that express and complete Faith in Christ.

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by moondweller %between%

another you avoided that I request you respond to quoting my post;

Peter taught as has been explained by the Catholic Faith and without ignoring any part of Scripture and it is very interesting you acknowledge the validity of Peter and of course in the written Word of Scripture, although with an opposing understanding of SOME of these teachings.

There is much you overlook when it comes to your individual interpretations of scripture in opposition to the CC. Your references to Scripture are selective and out of context to the written contents of the compiled writings of the teachings of the Apostles which you acknowledge as the Inspired Word of God.
But these writings were not the only source of teachings in the Early Church and certainly not the source of teachings received by the Apostolic Fathers who were taught either as adults or children directly by the Apostles even before these written texts existed.

It is clear that the scribes or writers of the Apostolic texts were disciples, Christians within the Church, that is only logical. Additionally, these Apostolic Fathers (immediate successors to the Apostles and their continued successors) who knew and understood the Apostolic teachings first hand are the men who began the gathering of all texts after they had been produced, authenticated them, and selected those texts they knew to be valid according to the teachings they received from the Apostles. It was the ECFs over time who proceeded eliminating those considered not authentic for relative reasons, this also taking into consideration the contents of the Vetus Itala, and safeguarded those texts apparent for the subsequent compiling and translation of the first gathered Vulgate commissioned by pope Damasus to St. Jerome 384 AD.
A compilation of texts we’ve known as the Holy Bible intended to be utilized in the Teachings of the Catholic Faith but which was taken from its element (CC) away from its correct interpretation and correct understanding which we refer to as Sacred Tradition of which it was taught in unison in the Catholic Faith. It is the writings of these Apostolic Fathers who in their common personal writings corroborate from that time over the 2000 years of teachings of the Catholic Faith from the Apostolic teachings forward and who introduced through the guidance of the Holy Spirit the Holy Bible as the Inspired Word of God as it has been recognized throughout the majority of Christianity except for the changing of interpretations subsequent to the “protestant reformation“. This is all based on recorded history by acknowledged both by Christian and non Catholic sources.

Do you honestly believe you know better and understand better the intended teachings and interpretations of Scripture over and above the Apostolic Fathers and the Catholic Church from which the Inspired Word of God was taken?

Please respond with credible support.

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by moondweller

I also asked for a response from you to this post which preceeded the last two;

A distorted acceptance of another man’s opinion you offer. One of MD’s positions is here quoted that you agree with. What you also ignore in an effort to maintain your desired adopted beliefs can be pointed out very simply with the same quote. Where insisted as in red above and underlined so emphatically “…to an inheritance* imperishable* and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.",
you ignore the previous statement, "*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be ****born again “to a living hope ***through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” , It does not say living certainty, it says “hope”. Explain what is the necessity of “hope” if it is as you suggest without possibility of loss?

A true believer who actually knows the correct teaching of Scripture in the love of God would not have such a question to raise nor disregard so much of scripture in an effort to avoid facing his or her own misinterpretation such as you reflect in your expression of bias. Read further…

Arrogance supported by bias breeds ignorance my friend. There is no “explaining away” one verse for another, all Scripture teaches in unison with each other and Scripture, when interpreted correctly, does not conflict with itself. The resentment those such as yourself have with the word “works” is you do not comprehend the difference in the reference to works Paul (as with the Pharisee perspective) speaks of and the Works we are called to. We do not throw away Paul to validate our reference to works referred throughout Scripture including that of James and we do not throw away James to justify what we know Paul speaks of. Both are legitimate points of Teaching without conflict, both are references distinctive in there intended meaning.

The obedience we are instructed to is to live according to Christ’s Teachings and He teaches us not only by the life He lived but by examples He offered us. Avoidance of sin and works of charity in humility with love for one another in our love of Him are our expression of faith and its completeness, the fulfillment of that faith, which He demands of us. Grace through faith is not a free ticket to sin yet guarantee of salvation regardless of our actions beyond Baptism into Christ. The works of charity in humility Jesus Himself lived by and instructed all to obey are necessary for us to retain (not earn) that salvation Christ offers us so that all men MAY be saved. These are the expressions of love of each other in love of Christ.

Salvation is through grace in faith, yes, but if you think that is all there is you are sadly misguided. According to the teachings of Christ, it is the expression of faith through works of love in charity, and humility, in the love of Christ that we are to live by. If you do not understand this, it is because you were led to believe that “works“ always refers to works of the law, which it does not. Christ refers us to the works of Charity… Consider the following passage from James;

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience’s as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now consider the following examples Christ gives us as works of love and the fact that without them, we can loss the gift of salvation;

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by moondweller

%between%

And this also as part of the previous post if you don’t mind;

continued from previous post:

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

James CH2; 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Romans CH2; 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
　 The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ. These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us above. They are not by any means an attempt to “earn” salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.
　
First, where did the written contents of your Bible originate (and I do not mean who Inspired them) ?
Second, as your faith is one of those born of the protestant reformation, where is either the establishment of your faith or the so called “reformation” justified in scripture?

I asked this previous question because Scripture does clearly warn of others distorting the Word of God, false prophets and teachers leading many away from His True Church, both from within and outside of her, but I am not aware of anything in Scripture that remotely supports the remobilization, establishment or founding of any new church or system of beliefs by any man or women or even reforming the existing Church at any time. In fact, Jesus made it clear only He by the Authority given Him by the Father, would reconcile all things in Heaven and on Earth to Himself THROUGH Himself.

Thirdly, do you believe you or anyone holding your adopted beliefs could understand the teachings and intent of the written word better than the Apostolic Fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles as either adults or children in most cases, who learned not from written word, but by Apostolic Preaching and attending discipleship, who could for this reason, determine the true understanding intended of those teachings, what texts were authentic according to those teachings, men who succeeded the Apostles and even their immediate successors and who we know were guided by the Holy Spirit within the union of the Early Church Fathers over the first four centuries to determine which Gospel texts were in fact authentic Apostolic teachings and the Inspired Word of God and which were not?

And what comparable support does Calvin’s opinions stem from in opposition to the Catholic Faith in comparison to the Apostolic Fathers and their common cooperative writings of the true Faith Founded by Jesus Christ in His Blood as established by the chosen Apostles and their institution of the succession to their authority until Christ‘s return as they were commissioned?

 

[LittleSoldier]

continued from previous post:

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I love this Scripture passage - it is definitely one of my favorites because it not only shows the importance of “works” but that whatever is done to another human being is done to Jesus, too. I don’t see the words “faith alone” anywhere. In fact, one does not even need to know of Jesus to interact with Him because a person’s works in relation to other human beings are evidence of his/her relationship with Jesus.

We may not know Jesus, but He certainly knows us.

 

[Philthy]

No, a person (in context) cannot be saved through a mere “said” faith (Ja. 2:14). This is the CONTEXT of James’ whole argument. Many SAY they have faith in Christ, but actually trust in their own piety, their own works, their church hierarchy, their religious system.

Wrong from the get go - the context has nothing at all to do with those who " actually trust in their own piety, their own works, their church hierarchy, their religious system." That is pure fantasy. The context, if it werent clear enough, is what is the salvific consequence of a faith that LACKS WORKS - exactly the opposite of your proposed someone who “trusts in their own works”.
Here it is for all who wish to know the truth…v14, the beginning of the faith, works discussion:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

There it is. The context? Salvation and it’s relationship to a faith that does not have works. It is the exact opposite of what you propose when you say that the context involves someone who trusts in their own works, and has absolutely nothing to do with the fabricated issues of “church hierarchy” or “religious system”.

The section concludes, after a discussion of a bunch of works related issues including how a person who neglects the needs of others is essentially useless and how a bunch of righteous people did good works, to the opening context with the answer to the rhetorical question asked above:

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone… For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The message could not be clearer:

If someone says they have faith but do not have works, that is no good and it will not save them. We are justified by works and not by faith without works (ie faith alone), because faith without works is dead faith and dead faith is not salvific.

The only caveat that I will add is that the context of this discussion is for Christians persevering in faith. I do believe that our initial adoption as sons and daughters of God, our renewing by the holy Spirit - what non-Catholics ofter refer to as being “born-again” - is accomplished by faith alone. If a person who “accepted Christ as Lord and Savior” with the full intent of submitting their lives to Him were to die immediately after believing and before there was an opportunity to live their faith, they would inherit the KOG. But that is not what James is addressing, and my comments should be read in that context: the ongoing Christian life.

 

[Philthy]

A small correction:

The only caveat that I will add is that the context of this discussion is for Christians persevering in faith. I do believe that our initial adoption as sons and daughters of God, our renewing by the holy Spirit - what non-Catholics ofter refer to as being “born-again” - is accomplished by grace through that faith alone.

 

[Cat_Herder]

A small correction:

The only caveat that I will add is that the context of this discussion is for Christians persevering in faith. I do believe that our initial adoption as sons and daughters of God, our renewing by the holy Spirit - what non-Catholics ofter refer to as being “born-again” - is accomplished by grace through that faith alone.

Well, faith along with baptism, through which is given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38.

Infants are baptized on the faith of their parents. Acts 2:39. The Holy Spirit supplies personal faith for the baby. 1 Cor 12:9.