Faith alone or not?

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…Scripture speaks nothing of “grace fueled, meritorious works” that result in one’s salvation. … They’re two very different views of salvation; so much the opposite of one another that they can’t both be right. Semantic? Heavens no!
*The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” “What should we do then?” the crowd asked. John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.” Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?” “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.” *(Luke 3:9-14)

Dear MD, you have been proved wrong countless times. Will you ever change?
 
James is referring to a different incident in scripture where Abraham is justified and that instance is found later in Genesis 22 and refers to Abraham trusting and obeying God as expressed in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac.
Where in Gen. 22 is it recorded: “…and God saw that Abraham was willing to offer up Isaac so He (God) *reckoned it *(Abraham’s willingness) to him as righteousness.”

Sorry, Pax, but that just doesn’t exist. I know you wish it did, but it just doesn’t. What he reckoned to Abraham as righteousness was his faith in him alone.
 
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. (John 14:12-14)

You have been proved wrong countless times. Will you ever change?
Those verses say nothing about acquiring salvation through those “greater things.” I have not been proved wrong yet. Hence, no need to change.
 
Those verses say nothing about acquiring salvation through those “greater things.” I have not been proved wrong yet. Hence, no need to change.
Here MD, can you say the same of these verses too? You have been proved wrong countless times. Will you ever change?
*The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” “What should we do then?” the crowd asked. John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.” Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?” “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.” *(Luke 3:9-14)
 
If there is such a thing as a “mortal” sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.
I John 5:14-17
14*And this is the boldness we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. 16If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. **There is sin that is mortal; **I do not say that you should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth,* there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins**, 27but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy ‘on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 29How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know the one who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
Our religion tells us that “those who cause people to sin” are more gulity than “those who sin”. Who taught and trained Osama Bin Laden? Who introduced him to terror?
Radical clerics in Saudi Arabia–however, the USA gave the proto-Taliban guns and training to fight the Soviets. Once they had their freedom they turned on us.

Unfortunately we were caught up in a euphoria of religious tolerance and ignorance of history. At the time no one in the White House knew about Lepanto and everyone thought the Crusades were all bad. The fault for this goes to the feet of British Protestantism.

I’d love to discuss this further if you would start a thread.
 
If there is such a thing as a “mortal” sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.
I John 5:14-17
14*And this is the boldness we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. 16If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. **There is sin that is mortal; **I do not say that you should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth,* there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins**, 27but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy ‘on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 29How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know the one who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And you’re going to have a hard time explaining how the KKK are not saved in my hypothetical.
 
*That’s not semantics. It’s two different means of salvation. One strictly “through faith,” the other through the merit of works.
You are wrong in your conclusion. Both means of salvation are through faith. The difference is you confuse the works of the law with the works required by God OF CHARITY and in HUMILITY as Christ performed and taught we are to live by. That is what you argue against with distorted and out of context references. Please consider the following quotes you presented in red;
MD: But the Scriptures clearly say “*…*not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:9)
Now place your reference into context with the continued following verse in blue;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus **for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. **
These are the works of charity in humility, in the love of God that we SHOULD live in them.
 
and
MD: And elsewhere: Rom 4:5-6 "
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works."

Scripture speaks nothing of “grace fueled, meritorious works” that result in one’s salvation. No, my friend, this is hardly just a matter of semantics. They’re two very different views of salvation; so much the opposite of one another that they can’t both be right. Semantic? Heavens no!

Again, you have no understanding of the difference between works of the law as Paul refers and works of Christ’s teachings. If your interpretation were correct Paul would be directly contradicting himself with his own words which would suggest he did not know what he is talking about, as he also says;

*Romans CH2; 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of **the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. *

James CH2; 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

But then these were only some of those verses you avoided in past posts that in all honesty could help you see your misguided interpretations clearly taken out of context. We are justified by faith and retain our salvation through our living according to those works Christ Himself performed and directed us to perform in the love of each other.

Historic interpretation and references LV, NAB;
“[2-5]Romans 4:2 corresponds to Romans 4:4, and Romans 4:3-5. The Greek term here rendered credited means “made an entry.” The context determines whether it is credit or debit. Romans 4:8 speaks of “recording sin” as a debit. Paul’s repeated use of accountants’ terminology in this and other passages can be traced both to the Old Testament texts he quotes and to his business activity as a tentmaker. The commercial term in Genesis 15:6, “credited it to him,” reminds Paul in Romans 4:7-8 of Psalm 32:2, in which the same term is used and applied to forgiveness of sins. Thus Paul is able to argue that Abraham’s faith involved receipt of forgiveness of sins and that all believers benefit as he did through faith.”

Refer to the following limited references of the ECFs I spoke of previously and notice the dates;

Continued next post…
 
continued from previous post:

Clement of Rome -
Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).

Theophilus of Antioch
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria
When we hear, ‘Your faith has saved you,’ we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen
Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian
You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

Aphracrtes
Great is the gift which he that is good has given to us. While not forcing us, and in spite of our sins he wants us to be justified. While he is in no way aided by our good works, he heals us that we may be pleasing in his sight. When we do not wish to ask of him, he is angry with us. He calls out to all of us constantly; “Ask and receive, and when you seek, you shall find” (*Treatises *23:48 A.D. 336-345]).

Gregory of Nyssa
Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

John Chrysostom
He that believes in the Son has everlasting life." Is it enough, then, to believe in the Son,’ someone will say, ‘in order to have everlasting life?’ By no means! Listen to Christ declare this himself when he says, ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord! Lord!” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven’; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a part of our teaching? For if a man believe rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not live rightly, his faith will avail him nothing toward salvation (Homilies on the Gospel of John 31:1[circa A.D. 391]).

Jerome
But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.’ It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the ‘just’ man lives by faith. He implies thereby that whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

I ask you again to consider do you honestly believe you know better and understand better the intended teachings and interpretations of Scripture over and above the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers (some taught most personally by the preachings of the apostles, not the writings) and the Catholic Church of which they served within and from which the written Inspired Word of God know as the Gospels were taken?
 
If there is such a thing as a “mortal” sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.
1. The Bible (1 John 5:16): “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.”
Note: deadly sin = mortal sin. The Bible says there is such a thing …
2. The Catholic Catechism (Paragraph 1857): “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
3. Answers.com: “Mortal sin is sin such as murder or blasphemy, that is so heinous it deprives the soul of sanctifying grace and causes damnation”.
It seems – once again – it is Catholicism that agrees with the Bible and Moondweller who (as always) opposes the Bible.

placido
 
After watching yet another sola something thread run it’s course, I think I’ve come to the conclusion that this particular “Sola” may represent Satan’s biggest success.

I can’t imagine a more damnable heresy than the separation of Love from Faith that insistence on the use of this non-scriptural non-Apostolic language of “Faith Alone” leads many to embrace.

Could someone please explain to me how this “doctrine” actually, in the real world, helps anyone to be a better Christian? What are the practical benefits that this teaching brings to its adherents?

Other than differentiating your beliefs from Catholic teaching, what are the benefits?

As I see it, best case scenario, one ends up couching doctrine that is from a practical stand point identical to the historic Christian faith in the Orwellian doublespeak language of “Faith Alone”

We are saved by faith alone. Of course, true faith is faith working in love, and faith without love is dead, and someone who doesn’t exhibit faith working in love never really had true faith and isn’t saved, anyone who is saved has real faith will keep Christ’s commandments, but works of love are completely unnecessary, it is Faith Alone that saves….really, I swear……:hypno:

We can clearly find plenty of examples of those that take the highly theologically nuanced “Solas” and turn them into “Solos” to the detriment of themselves and those around them.

So what’s the upside? You “prevent” someone with Faith in Christ from Loving “too much”?

Can anyone show me an actual example of someone who devotes themselves to works of Christian charity that does so to spite Faith in Christ? Isn’t that what this doctrine would seek to prevent? Does this hypothetical person even exist?

How does this doctrine help one to grow in Faith or Virtue?

It seems to me that the “reformers” created in this doctrine a wonderful tool set for the vehement defense of acedias without adding anything of value.

Unfortunately, it seems that this is nothing new; Christ’s church has been fighting the battle for Christian virtue from the beginning;

**1 John 3:11-23 “**11 For this is the message you have heard from the beginning: we should love one another,…19 (Now) this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth…because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 **And his commandment is this:****we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,**and love one another just as he commanded us.”

Chuck
 
Where in Gen. 22 is it recorded: “…and God saw that Abraham was willing to offer up Isaac so He (God) *reckoned it *(Abraham’s willingness) to him as righteousness.”

Sorry, Pax, but that just doesn’t exist. I know you wish it did, but it just doesn’t. What he reckoned to Abraham as righteousness was his faith in him alone.
MD in Christ,

The witness is not found in Gen 22 itself, but is instead found in two other places in scripture. Once in the OT and once in the NT. Here are the quotes:

James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was tested and was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar(Gen 22:1-12) and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.”

1 Mac. 2:52 also addresses Gen 22 and it says: “Was not Abraham found faithful when tested [Gn 22:1ff], and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?”

Since both of these reference the instance of Abraham sacrificing Isaac and since both say that " it was reckoned to him as righteousness" it is necessary to accept the explanation of Genesis 22 in the way I presented it. I cannot go against the inspired word of God and accept your view.

God bless.
 
MD in Christ,

Would you agree that Paul uses “circumcision” as his principle example of works righteousness of the law against the Judaizers in his arguments for justification by faith?

God bless.
 
You guys always have to revert to hypotheticals, don’t you? Do you think God, “who knows the heart,” had to wait for Abraham to demonstrate his faith
What does Scripture say about this MD?

Genesis 22 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. Next he tied up his son Isaac, and put him on top of the wood on the altar. Then he reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son.But the LORD’S messenger called to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the messenger. “Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son.”
Abraham named the site Yahweh-yireh; hence people now say, “On the mountain** the LORD will see.”**
“I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly…”

Scripture says that when Abraham passed the test that God then knew “how devoted” Abraham was, and that as a result of that obedience he was “blessed”…
 
You guys always have to revert to hypotheticals, don’t you? Do you think God, “who knows the heart,” had to wait for Abraham to demonstrate his faith before God could justify Him? Gen. 15:6 states emphatically that Abraham believed in the Lord and He reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness. We see this glorious example in the N.T:

Peter testifies: "Acts 15:8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;” God knew Abraham’s heart (the seat of faith, Rom. 10:10) and justified him based on his faith (belief) in Him alone. So it was also with the Gentiles to whom Peter preached the gospel.
If God knew Abrahmas heart why did He let Abraham go as far as he did?
 
What does Scripture say about this MD?

Genesis 22 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. Next he tied up his son Isaac, and put him on top of the wood on the altar. Then he reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son.But the LORD’S messenger called to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the messenger. “Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son.”
Abraham named the site Yahweh-yireh; hence people now say, “On the mountain** the LORD will see.”**
“I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly…”

Scripture says that when Abraham passed the test that God then knew “how devoted” Abraham was, and that as a result of that obedience he was “blessed”…
Here is what I find interesting. The event you describe occurred on the third day. God let Abraham know that he must go and offer Isaac up 2 days previous. Was that not an admission of faith?

Why is that not pointed out by Moon as the “faith” moment, the beginning of the trip. As soon as he agreed to go on the trip knowing he must offer his own son, is that not the faith moment Moon clings to so dearly.

Abraham walked with the burden that he must offer his son for two whole days and nights. His walking is the walking in faith, we as Catholics describe.

If Abraham had not obeyed the previous two days … the events of the third day would not have passed.

Think about it.
 
Let’s see how the Catholic Douhay-Rheims Bible translates this passage.

For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
(Rom 3:28 DRB)
Hmmm, that’s weird because from what I can see the Douay-Rheims translation of that particular passage doesn’t have any bolding at all.

Have you been adding to the bible? This may sound nitpicky to you, but I am serious here. Are we supposed to add to the bible?

This reminds me of the addition of the word “alone” after the word “faith.” :tsktsk:
 
Where in Gen. 22 is it recorded: “…and God saw that Abraham was willing to offer up Isaac so He (God) *reckoned it *(Abraham’s willingness) to him as righteousness.”

Sorry, Pax, but that just doesn’t exist. I know you wish it did, but it just doesn’t. What he reckoned to Abraham as righteousness was his faith in him alone.
What doesnt exist, IMHO, is the statement that Abraham’s “credit of righteousness” was a permanent credit or that it, alone, guaranteed that he would be going to Heaven.
All we will repeatedly hear is the pleading of what those statements “mean” when interpreted through the lens of an individuals soteriology. I remain unimpressed with those pleadings.
 
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