Faith alone? Really?

[Peter_J]

This touches on the heart of the issue as I understand it, in that between Lutherans and Catholics we seem to have different understandings on what Faith means.

As I understand it, when Catholic say ‘faith’ they tend to mean an intellectual assent - so if they hear ‘Faith Alone’, it really drives them up the wall. If Lutherans had this definition of Faith - we would never say ‘Faith Alone’ for that understanding would be contrary to scripture. As scripture tells us, even evil creatures know that God exists.

Lutherans understand a ‘saving faith’ to be a profound change - much more than and intellectual assent. So to us ‘Faith Alone’ makes perfect sense.

Oddly enough, this Lutheran faith is hard to ‘measure’: so while Catholics have the issue of wondering if their responsive grace-filled works through faith are enough, Lutherans have the problem of wondering if their responsive faith is enough for God’s grace.

The answer my pastor gave was that if we are wondering if we have enough faith, then we have enough faith.

Everything you were saying made sense to me, until I got to the last sentence.

 

[Peter_J]

Oh, thats easy!
I can cut and paste that too.

**I believe **in one God, the Father almighty,

maker of heaven and earth, 

of all things visible and invisible.

**I believe **in one Lord Jesus Christ,

    the Only Begotten Son of God, 

    born of the Father before all ages. 

God from God, Light from Light, 

    true God from true God, 

begotten, not made, consubstantial 

   with the Father; 

    Through him all things were made. 

For us men and for our salvation 

    he came down from heaven, 

    and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate 

    of the Virgin Mary, 

    and became man.



For our sake he was crucified 

  under Pontius Pilate,

    he suffered death and was buried, 

    and rose again on the third day 

    in accordance with the Scriptures. 

He ascended into heaven 

    and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 

He will come again in glory 

    to judge the living and the dead 

    and his kingdom will have no end.

**
I believe **in the Holy Spirit,

    the Lord, the giver of life, 

who proceeds from the Father and the Son,

Oh?

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by fpesce
Yes, that is true. But didn’t St. Anthony lock himself up in a room for a year. All he had with him was the Holy Bible.

Way back then? It has to have been the King James.

 

[PRmerger]

Same way all the believers in the Old Testament were justified, by God’s grace through faith.

Why is Cornelius bound by OT law? He is not mentioned in the OT but rather in the New.

Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. It was Abraham’s faith in God and His promise that God would make him a great nation. So when God tested Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham still trusted God and His promise even though God just told him a seemingly contradictory command in sacrificing Isaac. His actions resulted from his faith(trust). Throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, it is God’s grace through faith. Now that we’re in the New Testament, that figure of perfect faith and sacrifice is Jesus Christ. Everything in the Old Testament, New Testament, history points to what Jesus did at Calvary. That’s the central corner stone

Yes. Very Catholic.

So Cornelius was righteous before he ever met Jesus.

So if the infant perishes without being baptized, does that infant go to hell? If so, so it’s a work then that conveys grace?

No. We don’t proclaim that the infant goes to hell. We say that it’s above our pay grade to know where unbaptized souls go.

It’s no more a work that conveys grace than an altar call is a work that conveys grace.

If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained(cross at calvary), but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. (Trent, session 6, chapter 16 and canon 24).

Amen. I think you are not focusing on the “merely”. That’s important.

Please note this, from the Joint Declaration on Justification: “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification”

Since babies are not aware of their own actions, it is God’s mercy that is given upon them by God himself.

Of course. Not sure what your point is here? Were you under the misapprehension that Catholicism proclaims that it’s not God’s mercy or that it is given to them by someone other than God?

Do you know how many babies/infants/toddlers die daily globally without being water baptized?

No. How many? Please cite your source.

If you believe in canon 24 as stated above, it says you have to preserve and increase grace by works. Therefore, you are earning grace. Grace is no longer grace if it’s earned.

No. It does not say that we preserve and increase grace by works.

 

[PRmerger]

If you believe in canon 24 as stated above, it says you have to preserve and increase grace by works. Therefore, you are earning grace. Grace is no longer grace if it’s earned.

Perhaps you should read more of Trent: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema” (Session 6; can. 1).

 

[fpesce]

Oh?

Oh what??

 

[fpesce]

No, fpesce.

Originally, you proclaimed this, and I quote:

You have, it appears, rescinded this comment. I applaud you on this.

You realize that there is much, much more than “ONLY” believing and being baptized that brings about salvation.

I said that on my third post. And I have not rescinded this comment. I have tried to explain to you that “believing” is all encompassing. Believing has all the attributes to be saved. That is why He keeps saying “those who believe will be saved”. Jesus didn’t say, oh and by the way that is just the first step. Then here is a list of everything you must do.

But go ahead and don’t listen to anything else I have to say and keep harping on that single quote.

 

[PRmerger]

I said that on my third post. And I have not rescinded this comment. I have tried to explain to you that “believing” is all encompassing. Believing has all the attributes to be saved. That is why He keeps saying “those who believe will be saved”. Jesus didn’t say, oh and by the way that is just the first step. Then here is a list of everything you must do.

But go ahead and don’t listen to anything else I have to say and keep harping on that single quote.

Well, then what you have proclaimed is very Catholic.

Now, can you please answer the question, based on your claim that Scripture speaks for itself, if you would allow a preacher to preach in your church who told you that he “preaches from the Bible”. Would that be all the qualifications you need?

Ad why do you have bible studies?

 

[flipmode]

Perhaps you should read more of Trent: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema” (Session 6; can. 1).

That is still basically saying **our **work

with

divine grace through Jesus Christ, justifies us before God. That means we are still adding our own work to what Jesus did at Calvary. It should be Jesus did

all

the work for justification.

Why is Cornelius bound by OT law? He is not mentioned in the OT but rather in the New.

Jesus had not fulfilled the Law yet until He completed God’s work at Calvary. I’m sure after that, Cornelius was justified through Christ.

So Cornelius was righteous before he ever met Jesus.

Yes he was, but not through his own works, but through God’s grace through faith.

No. We don’t proclaim that the infant goes to hell. We say that it’s above our pay grade to know where unbaptized souls go.

It’s no more a work that conveys grace than an altar call is a work that conveys grace.

So what happens to an infant if he does get baptized but passes away? It’s not the altar call that justifies, it’s when a person meets Jesus at the foot of the cross. Not all people that go to an altar call meet Jesus, just as not all people that go to Sunday church meet Jesus either.

Amen. I think you are not focusing on the “merely”. That’s important.

Please note this, from the Joint Declaration on Justification: “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification”

Anyway I read it, it still sounds the same to me. If you take “merely” out or keep it in, it still reads the same. Also, nothing merits the grace of justification, that’s why it’s called grace. But grace is delivered through the mechanism of faith.

 

[Peter_J]

Oh, thats easy!
I can cut and paste that too.

**I believe **in one God, the Father almighty,

maker of heaven and earth, 

of all things visible and invisible.

**I believe **in one Lord Jesus Christ,

    the Only Begotten Son of God, 

    born of the Father before all ages. 

God from God, Light from Light, 

    true God from true God, 

begotten, not made, consubstantial 

   with the Father; 

    Through him all things were made. 

For us men and for our salvation 

    he came down from heaven, 

    and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate 

    of the Virgin Mary, 

    and became man.



For our sake he was crucified 

  under Pontius Pilate,

    he suffered death and was buried, 

    and rose again on the third day 

    in accordance with the Scriptures. 

He ascended into heaven 

    and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 

He will come again in glory 

    to judge the living and the dead 

    and his kingdom will have no end.

**
I believe **in the Holy Spirit,

    the Lord, the giver of life, 

who proceeds from the Father and the Son,

…

Oh what??

I was kind of hoping you would ask that.

I was wondering if you know that that’s an addition to the creed that was made with the Pope’s approval, but without an ecumenical council (the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed said “who proceeds from the Father”)?

Any yet, protestants seem to have no problem recalling the revised version The Creed. Interesting, isn’t it?

(Not trying to start a conversation about the filioque here. We’ve had a bunch already.)

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. As a more general response to your creed-post, here’s something that everyone on this thread should like.

 

[PRmerger]

That is still basically saying **our **work divine grace through Jesus Christ, justifies us before God.

That means we are still adding our own work to what Jesus did at Calvary.

Yep. Exactly. You are almost quoting St. Paul verbatim.

[BIBLEDRB]Colossians 1:24[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

I’m sure after that, Cornelius was justified through Christ.

I don’t think you are quite familiar with Cornelius in the Scriptures, flip. He is mentioned in the Book of Acts, after Christ’s atoning death on the cross.

Yes he was, but not through his own works, but through God’s grace through faith

Right. The Catholic way. :yup:

So what happens to an infant if he does get baptized but passes away?

He goes to heaven, as far as we know.

It’s not the altar call that justifies, it’s when a person meets Jesus at the foot of the cross.

That sounds like a work to me.

And is Jesus at the cross of Calvary eternally? What you are proposing sounds a lot like the Catholic view of there being One Sacrifice, but the Mass being a participation in this Eternal Sacrifice.

Not all people that go to an altar call meet Jesus, just as not all people that go to Sunday church meet Jesus either.

Ok. This is a non-sequitur, but ok.

Anyway I read it, it still sounds the same to me. If you take “merely” out or keep it in, it still reads the same.

It as important a distinction as if a Muslim said, “You Christians proclaim that Jesus is merely a man.” That “merely” is where everything rises or falls, does it not?

Also, nothing merits the grace of justification, that’s why it’s called grace. But grace is delivered through the mechanism of faith.

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

Fair enough.

So you are arguing, then, for a Sola Old Testament, plus Pauline epistles paradigm?

Where does that leave the Letter to the Hebrews? As its authorship is unknown, how do we know that it’s inspired? And how do we know that Paul was referring to it as being “Scripture”?

And how do we know that St. Paul was referring to the letters the apostles were writing? What letters did St. Matthias write? Or St. Andrew?

Hi, flipmode. Could you please address the above post?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

If you believe in canon 24 as stated above, it says you have to preserve and increase grace by works. Therefore, you are earning grace. Grace is no longer grace if it’s earned.

Have you read the entire Council? I suspect that if you did, you don’t remember some very important parts of it.

For example:

Of this Justification the causes are these:
the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instru-[Page 35]mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which [Page 36] Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

(Emphasis mine).

Now go back and read
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

What is being anathemized here? Saying that good works are not a cause of the increase.

Go back to Chapter VII again:

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity.

(Emphasis mine)

Slinging bits and pieces of documents and readings are of no benefit when taken out of context.

Now let’s read Chapter X:

On the increase of Justification received.
Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day (2Cor. 4:16); that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh (Col. 3:5), and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification (Rom. 6:13, 19), they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

(Bible references mine).

See Justification is not a once and you are done deal. It goes hand in hand with sanctification.

To be continued.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Continued from post 235:

Further, the initial justification does not take away our responsibility to keep God’s commandments. Which was covered in Chapter XI at Trent:
CHAPTER XI.

On keeping the Commandments, and on the necessity and possibility thereof.
But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. And for this cause, the just themselves ought to feel themselves the more obligated to walk in the way of justice, in that, being already freed from sins, but made servants of God, they are able, living soberly, justly, and godly, to proceed onwards through Jesus Christ, by whom they have had access unto this grace. For God forsakes not those who have been once justified by His grace, unless he be first forsaken by them. Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself up with faith alone, fancying that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glori-[Page 39]fied with him. For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, Whereas he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. For which cause the same Apostle admonishes the justified, saying; Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection; lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a cast-away. So also the prince of the apostles, Peter; Labour the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing those things, you shall not sin at any time. From which it is plain, that those are opposed to the orthodox doctrine of religion, who assert that the just man sins, venially at least, in every good work; or, which is yet more insupportable, that he merits eternal punishments; as also those who state, that the just sin in all their works, if, in those works, they, together with this aim principally that God may be gloried, have in view also the eternal reward, in order to excite their sloth, and to encourage themselves to run in the course: whereas it is written, I have inclined my heart to do all thy justifications for the reward: and, concerning Moses, the Apostle saith, that he looked unto the reward.

To be continued.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Continued from Post 236.

The Council closes with CHAPTER XVI:

On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.
Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto [Page 43] the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works, that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all [Page 44] men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works. After this Catholic doctrine on Justification, which whoso receiveth not faithfully and firmly cannot be justified, it hath seemed good to the holy Synod to subjoin these canons, that all may know not only what they ought to hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.

It is after this Chapter that the Canons are entered.

Jimmy Akin has a great explanation on this subject here:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM

I truly suggest you read it in its entirety.

 

[fpesce]

Well, then what you have proclaimed is very Catholic.

Now, can you please answer the question, based on your claim that Scripture speaks for itself, if you would allow a preacher to preach in your church who told you that he “preaches from the Bible”. Would that be all the qualifications you need?

Ad why do you have bible studies?

I would like (for once) that you answer some of my previous questions I posted to you. Seems like I am in an interrogation. Please answer my questions. Look at my posts.

Thx

 

[PRmerger]

I would like (for once) that you answer some of my previous questions I posted to you. Seems like I am in an interrogation. Please answer my questions. Look at my posts.

Thx

Ohhh! Sorry! I have never seen you pose a question to me! I don’t see any in the posts that I’ve reviewed of yours.

Could you please re-ask me?

Also, sorry about the interrogation that you’re feeling. It’s simply follow-up questions to what you pose. If you say, “I believe A}” then the natural consequence of that may be a question that will be posed to you such as, “Well, then how does that work if B} happens?”

 

[rinnie]

I have been trying to understand the difference between the catholic (faith plus works) and the Protestant (faith alone) ideas for some time. While they sounds completely different when put that way, when you actually get down to it, it seem that they are basically saying the same thing.

Practically speaking, when it comes down to how we should live our lives, you need to have faith and do good works from both perspectives. I have tried reading multiple sources and listened to several debates and it seems to me they are basically saying the same thing when it comes to how we should be living our lives. Maybe I am not smart enough or found someone to explain the actual difference yet, but this debate it so much harder for me to understand than sola scripture for example.

For example, in the Methodist church that I have been attending they teach that we have a conversion, then must live our lives to do our best to become holy and that we can lose our salvation if we turn away from God, this seems the same as the Catholic Church. But the Book of Discipline it states that they follow Luther’s faith alone formula. I cannot differentiate.

However, the subject of authority is what has me looking into the Catholic church. And the communion of saints is such a beautiful doctrine, along with the view of the Eucharist that has me feeling like I’m really missing out on something by not being in the Catholic Church.

I have to say I don’t truly agree with what you are saying at all. I have spoken to more protestants that say as long as you have faith you are saved. Period.

Too many tell me they don’t have to go to Church to enter heaven, Do they? I believe that you do indeed have to go to Church every Sunday and honor and worship the Lord.

Now are there exceptions to the rule. Of course, IF you are sick, must work, etc. But as a rule we must follow the commandments. Not just have faith and believe.

Faith is only the beginning of it, First comes grace, then from that faith, then works, etc. Its all a part of Gods saving grace. We can accept it or reject it.

While I agree no one can ever say who will or won’t enter heaven, thats the call of the Almighty, I believe we know we have to obey his words and commands here on earth.

As a RC I know I must attend Church every Sunday. Unless its not possible. Would knowing this and still rrefusing to obey it keep from heaven. I think yes. But could I rely on the mercy of God, yes again I could. But I think a part of getting into eternal life with Christ is on our part also.

God gave us the means by his grace making it possible. but we must obey.

On the same token does going to Church every Sunday make me a shoe in, to enter heaven, Of course not. But its a start. Its the body and blood of Christ that enters our soul that make it possible to do good works that week in my eyes.