Faith alone? Really?

[JonNC]

P.S. As a more general response to your creed-post, here’s something that everyone on this thread should like.

“…saying pretty sounding words that don’t mean a thing, holding a floppy bible in the air, and making a face like you just passed a kidney stone.”

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I was kind of hoping you would ask that.

I was wondering if you know that that’s an addition to the creed that was made with the Pope’s approval, but without an ecumenical council (the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed said “who proceeds from the Father”)?

Any yet, protestants seem to have no problem recalling the revised version The Creed. Interesting, isn’t it?

(Not trying to start a conversation about the filioque here. We’ve had a bunch already.)

Peter,
This is one Lutheran that this has bothered. Then again, we are western Christians, and…

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Peter,
This is one Lutheran that this has bothered.

Yeah, always bothered me too. Well, I did think of one possible explanation (but I’m not sure if it makes any sense): that the spirit of the Carolingians somehow morphed into protestantism. After all, the Carolingians originally inserted the filioque against the objections of not only the East but of Rome as well.

 

[Peter_J]

Re: Faith alone? Really?

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpesce
…
By way I am NOT PROTESTANT.
…

My apologies - are you Catholic? Orthodox? No need to be ashamed of your beliefs…

---

fpesce - FUNNY

?? That again?? I though we cleared that up? Ok, for you I’ll spell it out again. Read my lips…“Yes, I am Catholic”. Maybe you can’t grasp it? I guess.

Follow-up question: are you in communion with Rome? (I don’t mean that sarcastically, just in case anyone’s thinking that I do.)

 

[flipmode]

I don’t think you are quite familiar with Cornelius in the Scriptures, flip. He is mentioned in the Book of Acts, after Christ’s atoning death on the cross.

Sorry you’r right. I always get the centurion who had great faith confused with Cornelius…haha.

That sounds like a work to me.

And is Jesus at the cross of Calvary eternally? What you are proposing sounds a lot like the Catholic view of there being One Sacrifice, but the Mass being a participation in this Eternal Sacrifice.

It’s not a work, it’s faith; Jesus did the work. Jesus died and rose, one time, and once for all. By accepting His work, in faith, His grace is conveyed. Communion is a tradition to do in remembrance of that event.

Ok. This is a non-sequitur, but ok.

What I meant was that even though a person goes to church, that doesn’t mean that the person knows the Lord. What matters is the heart. Does the Lord own that heart or not. The Pharisees did all the works of the Law but their heart did now belong to the Lord.

It as important a distinction as if a Muslim said, “You Christians proclaim that Jesus is merely a man.” That “merely” is where everything rises or falls, does it not?

But that is what I’m saying. That the works done are “merely” or only a fruit of justification already obtained. Works **cannot **be **both **a fruit(evidence) and an increase of justification. Its only one or the other.

Hi, flipmode. Could you please address the above post?

Sorry, I got lost with all the posts. The only paradigm I’m arguing for is the entire Bible, Old testament and New. We know that it’s inspired because of several factors. It’s prophecies have all or not yet been fulfilled in exquisite detail. It’s also historically correct with all the mentions of historical locations and dates. It cannot have any contradictions, because if it’s God’s Word, it shouldn’t. Otherwise, it would’ve been inspired by man and not God. Ultimately, it’s God who put it all together. If He wanted anything else in His Word, it would have been.

What is being anathemized here? Saying that good works are not a cause of the increase.

But that is what I am saying, good works are not the increase of justification. You cannot add to the justification already given as a giftat the cross.

See Justification is not a once and you are done deal. It goes hand in hand with sanctification.

I kindly disagree. A person is justified once when he accepts God’s gift of grace, and then sanctification happens over a person’s life through works. If justification and sanctification together were to increase with our works, then how much justification do we need to be in Heaven? Is there a certain amount or limit to reach? How did the thief next to Christ enter heaven? How much justification did he have? Is the amount needed different for everyone? If there are two sincere believers, is one more deserving to go to heaven than the other because one has worked more?

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry you’r right. I always get the centurion who had great faith confused with Cornelius…haha.

It’s not a work, it’s faith; Jesus did the work. Jesus died and rose, one time, and once for all. By accepting His work, in faith, His grace is conveyed. Communion is a tradition to do in remembrance of that event.

What I meant was that even though a person goes to church, that doesn’t mean that the person knows the Lord. What matters is the heart. Does the Lord own that heart or not. The Pharisees did all the works of the Law but their heart did now belong to the Lord.

But that is what I’m saying. That the works done are “merely” or only a fruit of justification already obtained. Works **cannot **be **both **a fruit(evidence) and an increase of justification. Its only one or the other.

Sorry, I got lost with all the posts. The only paradigm I’m arguing for is the entire Bible, Old testament and New. We know that it’s inspired because of several factors. It’s prophecies have all or not yet been fulfilled in exquisite detail. It’s also historically correct with all the mentions of historical locations and dates. It cannot have any contradictions, because if it’s God’s Word, it shouldn’t. Otherwise, it would’ve been inspired by man and not God. Ultimately, it’s God who put it all together. If He wanted anything else in His Word, it would have been.

But that is what I am saying, good works are not the increase of justification. You cannot add to the justification already given as a giftat the cross.

I kindly disagree. A person is justified once when he accepts God’s gift of grace, and then sanctification happens over a person’s life through works. If justification and sanctification together were to increase with our works, then how much justification do we need to be in Heaven? Is there a certain amount or limit to reach? How did the thief next to Christ enter heaven? How much justification did he have? Is the amount needed different for everyone? If there are two sincere believers, is one more deserving to go to heaven than the other because one has worked more?

Firstly, flipmode, could you please keep the members’ names on the posts so we know to whom you are addressing?

Also, you seem to have mixed and matched members’ posts, making it appear as if one person wrote all the posts to which you are responding.

There are numerous threads that detail how to post correctly…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…=quote+feature
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…=quote+feature

but a simple way is to just hit the “quote” icon at the bottom right. That way, the member’s name shows up, plus a link to that original post so one can see the context.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry you’r right.

My favorite words. Ask my husband how much I love to hear that!

I always get the centurion who had great faith confused with Cornelius…haha.

Ok. So I ask again: At what point did Cornelius accept God’s gift of grace through faith in what Jesus did at Calvary?

It’s not a work, it’s faith; Jesus did the work. Jesus died and rose, one time, and once for all.

An altar call is a work, flip. You have to do something in order to be saved.

By accepting His work, in faith, His grace is conveyed.

Where is this in Scripture?

What I meant was that even though a person goes to church, that doesn’t mean that the person knows the Lord. What matters is the heart. Does the Lord own that heart or not. The Pharisees did all the works of the Law but their heart did now belong to the Lord.

With the exception of “what matters is the heart”, the above is very Catholic.

As far as “what matters is the heart”, well, that is contrary to Scripture. It’s a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, for the Scriptures say we are to love God with our entire minds, souls and strength, not just “what matters is the heart”.

But that is what I’m saying. That the works done are “merely” or only a fruit of justification already obtained. Works **cannot **be **both **a fruit(evidence) and an increase of justification. Its only one or the other.

This is also a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing.

 

[PRmerger]

The only paradigm I’m arguing for is the entire Bible, Old testament and New. We know that it’s inspired because of several factors. It’s prophecies have all or not yet been fulfilled in exquisite detail. It’s also historically correct with all the mentions of historical locations and dates. It cannot have any contradictions, because if it’s God’s Word, it shouldn’t. Otherwise, it would’ve been inspired by man and not God. Ultimately, it’s God who put it all together. If He wanted anything else in His Word, it would have been.

Could you please explain how 3 John,* which does not even mention Jesus*, fits into the above set of “factors” you’ve ascribed to inspiration? And Philemon? And Hebrews?

And how the above “factors” exclude the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, Paul’s letter to the Laodiceans, 1 and 2 Clement?

 

[PRmerger]

If justification and sanctification together were to increase with our works, then how much justification do we need to be in Heaven?

There is no need to quantify “how much” justification is needed. We simply answer with the words of Jesus: strive to enter.

How did the thief next to Christ enter heaven?

By saying Yes to Christ.

Is the amount needed different for everyone?

I don’t know. That’s above our pay grade.

If there are two sincere believers, is one more deserving to go to heaven than the other because one has worked more?

No. The Catholic Church rejected Pelagianism thousands of years ago.

 

[rfournier103]

So… I can murder, rape, pillage, steal, blaspheme, destroy the property of others, live a scandallous life, never go to Mass/service, be un-repentant, and STILL go to heaven as long as BELIEVE in Jesus? After all… He DID die for our sins.

(I am sorry, Lord. I only said this to make a point)

How in the world does FAITH ALONE make ANY sense??? We don’t have to do ANYTHING but BELIEVE?

Do the Sola Fide believers also believe that we do not need the Bible or Baptism? We just need faith, right?

It never ceases to amaze me that so many otherwise brilliant people believe this.

 

[EIF5A]

So… I can murder, rape, pillage, steal, blaspheme, destroy the property of others, live a scandallous life, never go to Mass/service, be un-repentant, and STILL go to heaven as long as BELIEVE in Jesus? After all… He DID die for our sins.

(I am sorry, Lord. I only said this to make a point)

How in the world does FAITH ALONE make ANY sense??? We don’t have to do ANYTHING but BELIEVE?

Do the Sola Fide believers also believe that we do not need the Bible or Baptism? We just need faith, right?

It never ceases to amaze me that so many otherwise brilliant people believe this.

If one believes in Jesus, one would not do that. Or, one would not presume salvation. I suppose such a person who had knowledge of Jesus and committed those acts might have internal guilt, but I doubt they thought to themselves, “Oh boy, I’m going to heaven!”

I think a better analogy is having faith, but not helping a needy neighbor or something – omission, not commission.

Faith is necessary, and perhaps if one repents at the end and renounces sin with true contrition, sufficient. Works are not sufficient for salvation, but necessary to bear the fruits of faith.

 

[rfournier103]

If one believes in Jesus, one would not do that. Or, one would not presume salvation. I suppose such a person who had knowledge of Jesus and committed those acts might have internal guilt, but I doubt they thought to themselves, “Oh boy, I’m going to heaven!”

I think a better analogy is having faith, but not helping a needy neighbor or something – omission, not commission.

Faith is necessary, and perhaps if one repents at the end and renounces sin with true contrition, sufficient. Works are not sufficient for salvation, but necessary to bear the fruits of faith.

I agree that any true believer/serious follower of Jesus would never act that way. I also agree that works without faith would never get you to heaven. And thirdly, if works are necessary to bear the fruits of faith, then it is not faith ALONE, is it? Maybe our non-Catholic friends could try calling it something else? Because faith ‘alone’ seems to me a mis-nomer.

 

[EIF5A]

I agree that any true believer/serious follower of Jesus would never act that way. I also agree that works without faith would never get you to heaven. And thirdly, if works are necessary to bear the fruits of faith, then it is not faith ALONE, is it? Maybe our non-Catholic friends could try calling it something else? Because faith ‘alone’ seems to me a mis-nomer.

I think it’s like asking which side constitutes the coin: heads or tails?

I don’t think you can have faith without works, perhaps not the monumental works of the saints, but works nonetheless. Volunteering somewhere. Donating to the poor.

It’s just not possible for someone who is a true follower of Jesus to not do any work.

 

[rfournier103]

I think it’s like asking which side constitutes the coin: heads or tails?

I don’t think you can have faith without works, perhaps not the monumental works of the saints, but works nonetheless. Volunteering somewhere. Donating to the poor.

It’s just not possible for someone who is a true follower of Jesus to not do any work.

Agreed 100%.

 

[flipmode]

Also, you seem to have mixed and matched members’ posts, making it appear as if one person wrote all the posts to which you are responding.

My apologies, it was not my intention. I’m new to forum posting and just wanted to answer the questions addressed to me in one post.

Ok. So I ask again: At what point did Cornelius accept God’s gift of grace through faith in what Jesus did at Calvary?

Cornelius already had faith in God before he heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Christ was still being newly proclaimed. And when Peter was in Cornelius’s house, he stated “All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

An altar call is a work, flip. You have to do something in order to be saved.

An altar call is a work, but it’s the grace through faith behind it that saves. A person who does not believe wouldn’t even get up. A person believes first, and then he gets up. There are always intentions before actions. Otherwise, the action would not make sense if there wasn’t any intention. Also, a person does not have to go to an altar call to be saved. It is just a public declaration that a person has accepted God’s gift of grace.

Where is this in Scripture?

Romans 3:21-22, Romans 3:28, Romans 5 1:2, Galations 2:16, Galations 3:24, Ephesians 2: 8-9. These are just a few. It is mentioned time and time again that it is grace through faith.

With the exception of “what matters is the heart”, the above is very Catholic.

As far as “what matters is the heart”, well, that is contrary to Scripture. It’s a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, for the Scriptures say we are to love God with our entire minds, souls and strength, not just “what matters is the heart”.

What I meant was that whatever a person does or works, his heart should be in the right place. That is, it should belong to the Lord. I didn’t mean to say that everything about the Lord is the heart. Empty actions are meaningless before Him.

1 Samuel 16:7
“For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.”

Colossians 3:23
“Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters”

This is also a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing.

So what do you exactly believe in concerning justification and works? Justification can be increased by our good works or that good works are a fruit or evidence of justification? Or do you believe in both?

By saying Yes to Christ.

The thief had to believe first before he said “Yes” to Christ. Otherwise, it would be empty words and Jesus would not have welcomed him to paradise.

I don’t know. That’s above our pay grade.

Justification is the same for everyone.

Romans 1: 16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Could you please explain how 3 John, which does not even mention Jesus, fits into the above set of “factors” you’ve ascribed to inspiration? And Philemon? And Hebrews?

And how the above “factors” exclude the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, Paul’s letter to the Laodiceans, 1 and 2 Clement?

I don’t know all the specific details off hand in what they used to determine what should be in the bible. In the end, it is God ultimately determining what should be in there. And if it truly is God’s Word, it should have qualities that separate it from other "good’ books. If it had errors or mistakes in it, can it truly be “God’s Word”?

 

[rfournier103]

Revalation 22:12-13… “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

???

 

[EIF5A]

I think salvation is different from heavenly reward.

salvation: faith plus the works that come from faith
reward: amount of works stemming from love/charity

 

[josh987654321]

I think salvation is different from heavenly reward.

salvation: faith plus the works that come from faith
reward: amount of works stemming from love/charity

I don’t mean to intrude, I just wish to add something small.

People who think that religion is to be practiced seeking only an eternal reward, are mistaken with regards to God. Do you think of God as a banker who only looks at the numbers? the only valid law for God is love.

He who truly loves will always consider himself in debt, and the last thing in his mind will be that his love be rewarded. This is why Jesus taught us to give alms, trying that our left hand not know what our right hand does because receiving alms is almost always a humiliation, only alleviated by the love with which it is given.

The only kind of alms that does not hurt, comes from the one whom fully identifies with the person in need, and shares with him from the much or the little that he has. In this way there is no room for vanity in the one who gives, or humiliation in the one who receives.

Do you expect your loved ones to give you some kind of a reward for loving them? thats a form of trying to buy love.

If there was a reward in heaven for the amount of works stemming from love/charity, than there would have to be some kind of shanty town in heaven. there would be rich and poor in heaven if that were the case and obviously that is not the case.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[PRmerger]

My apologies, it was not my intention. I’m new to forum posting and just wanted to answer the questions addressed to me in one post.

Not a problem. But it would help, as I said, if you visited those threads and learned how to post more efficiently.

Cornelius already had faith in God before he heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Christ was still being newly proclaimed. And when Peter was in Cornelius’s house, he stated "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

Indeed. And he was a doer of good deeds. He was “regenerated” before he was born again.

An altar call is a work, but it’s the grace through faith behind it that saves. A person who does not believe wouldn’t even get up. A person believes first, and then he gets up. There are always intentions before actions. Otherwise, the action would not make sense if there wasn’t any intention. Also, a person does not have to go to an altar call to be saved. It is just a public declaration that a person has accepted God’s gift of grace.

Very Catholic this is!
(says Yoda)

Romans 3:21-22, Romans 3:28, Romans 5 1:2, Galations 2:16, Galations 3:24, Ephesians 2: 8-9. These are just a few. It is mentioned time and time again that it is grace through faith.

Again, very Catholic this is.

What I meant was that whatever a person does or works, his heart should be in the right place. That is, it should belong to the Lord. I didn’t mean to say that everything about the Lord is the heart. Empty actions are meaningless before Him

So very Catholic!

So what do you exactly believe in concerning justification and works? Justification can be increased by our good works or that good works are a fruit or evidence of justification? Or do you believe in both?

I believe that justification can be increased by our good works and that good works are not merely a fruit of justification.

The thief had to believe first before he said “Yes” to Christ. Otherwise, it would be empty words and Jesus would not have welcomed him to paradise.

Yep. Catholic teaching this is.

Justification is the same for everyone

Yes. We receive our justification through baptism, in union with the atoning death of Christ of course

However, the Scriptures do not teach that our justification is “once for all”–while there are certain aspects that are, indeed, permanent (such as the indelible mark placed on our soul when we are baptized), our justification is an ongoing process of being in and out of the state of grace. Sometimes we are in right relationship with God and justified, other times we fail and need the Sacrament to return.

Romans 1: 16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know all the specific details off hand in what they used to determine what should be in the bible.

Yes–this is something I don’t think you’ve ever considered…and it is a question of great import to those who deny the authority of the Catholic Church.

If you do consider the “specific details” of how the canon of the NT came to be, you would have no choice but to acknowledge that it was men, Catholic men, Catholic bishops to be exact, who discerned this canon of the NT for you.

And to say that, say, 3 John is inspired is to say that you know this only because the Catholic Church told you.

This is HUGE, flip. Absolutely HUGE.

You would not know it any other way except by deferring to an authority that is not the Bible.

In the end, it is God ultimately determining what should be in there. And if it truly is God’s Word, it should have qualities that separate it from other "good’ books. If it had errors or mistakes in it, can it truly be “God’s Word”?

Indeed. God used men, assisting them through the Holy Spirit, to discern the canon of the NT That they did this without erring means that you acknowledge that the charism of infalliblity has been given to men. Catholic men.

That, too, is HUGE, flip.

Please consider the truth in what has been posted here.