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emeraldisle
Guest
Thanks for posting the Bible references.
I make no apologies for being like a Berean in checking what you are posting with Gods revealed Truth in His written Word.
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- Status
I make no apologies for being like a Berean in checking what you are posting with Gods revealed Truth in His written Word.
.
K
kaycee
Guest
They were never truly believers.
1 John 2:19-20: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.” In this passage John discusses certain persons who at one time had professed apostolic doctrine and were members of the church.
Note the Spirit-inspired analysis of the apostle John regarding this all too common situation. John says, “they were not of us.” That is, they were never genuine members of the church. While it is true that they were baptized and professed the true religion, they were never united to Christ or saved. They were chaff on the same floor as wheat (Mt. 3:12), or tares among the wheat (Mt. 13:24-25). They were members of the visible church but never of the invisible church. In this context John uses the term “us” (emon) in the sense of true Christians.
The apostle makes two observations …First, he says that true Christians or members of the invisible church cannot apostatize: "for if they were of us , they would have continued with us." The fact that these professing Christians departed from the church is empirical proof that they were never true Christians. “They went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” **“The meaning here is that secession proves a want of fundamental union from the rest.”**9] Second, John says that true believers have received the Holy Spirit from Christ which secures them against apostasy or desertion: “But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.” True believers or members of the invisible church cannot fall away because they are baptized with the Holy Spirit and thus permanently abide in Christ (see 1 Jn. 2:27; 5:4). Our Lord concurs: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand” (Jn. 10:27-28).
1 Jn. 2:19-20 teaches: (1) the church is composed of true and false believers; and (2) the doctrine of perseverance. True Christians are united to Christ by the Holy Spirit and can never apostatize while those who are not baptized in the Spirit and not united to the Savior can. “Their presence in the visible church was temporary, for they failed in their perseverance. If they had been members of the invisible church, they would have remained with the body of believers.”
reformationtheology.com/2006/05/the_visible_vs_the_invisible_c.php
, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; **and from among your own selves **will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
Please take note…these are “believers” that the Holy Spirit had made “overseers”[bishops] and even some of these will fall into error.
Non-Catholic Christians should be very circumspect in reading the passage because it speaks to those that leave the Church and teach different doctrines than the Church. This applies to the leaders of the Reformation. They did both. They left the Church and they introduced novel doctrines that differed from those of the Church and they drew many after them.The wolves are always wolves
Paul is talking to leaders of the church who were first made Christians by the Holy Spirit, THEN made overseers. The ‘wolves’ had not arrived yet and would not until after Paul went home to be with the Lord. Since the wolves were not there, they cannot be part of the group of overseers Paul says WERE made such by the Holy Spirit. The “wolves” are always “wolves” (not believers), who then “come in among you” and even become leaders, “from among your own selves”. **The Holy Spirit did not indwell in them, **they are always wolves ****who can speak the Christian language even assenting to water baptism that did not make them Christians. That wolves can become leaders in the church should not be a shock. The Holy Spirit does not make wolves overseers in the Church.
S
sandusky
Guest
Explain.
Implicit to who?
The imputation of righteous deals with both imputation and *** reality.***
God declares one to be righteous for the following two reasons: 1) He gave us the righteousness (Rom 3:22; Php 3:9). That righteousness was imputed to us (Rom 4:1-4, 20-24). It was judicially credited to us in the place of our sins. And, 2) God has made us righteous in Christ (2 Cor 5:21; cf. Rom 5:19; 1 Cor 1:30). That essential righteousness is now a quality of the believer’s divinely renewed person, and of his inner human nature (Eph 4:24; cf 1 Pet 1:22; Acts 15:9).
The Father gives His people Jesus’ perfect righteousness which consists of His perfect obedience to the Father even unto death (Rom 5:19; Php 2:8; Jn 8:29); that righteousness is also the Father’s (Rom 3:22).
So then, justification is not only a divine declaration that the believer is righteous, but also the divine imputation of this righteousness which makes them to be righteous, and able to do righteousness by the power of Christ through the Spirit (Php 1:11; 4:13; Rom 14:17).
Yes it is (2 Cor 3:18 etc).
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rtconstant
Guest
Except that Christians are quiet obviously not righteous many times in their lives and I’m talking about the good ones. In order for us to be instantaneously and permantly made righteous in reality then God would have to consider sin righteous. Christian’s sin.
Instantaneous and eternal imputation can only function if we are cloaked in righteousness and God doesn’t see what we do. Which is not possible.
Eternal Instantaneous Imputed Grace implies that God either calls sin good or that He submits to self inflicted self deception.
Instantaneous and eternal imputation can only function if we are cloaked in righteousness and God doesn’t see what we do. Which is not possible.
Eternal Instantaneous Imputed Grace implies that God either calls sin good or that He submits to self inflicted self deception.
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rtconstant
Guest
Nor would I ask you to. Just make sure it is truly in the Berean’s path that you are walking. They had the advantage Apostalic guidance in their studies. Viewing the Bible without proper doctrine and formation typically leads to confusion.
C
ChrisWRIT
Guest
You may be right – I don’t quite understand how one can rationally argue that we are not saved by the law, but then argue that we are saved by a requirement of the law.
Lev 17 is all about the (legal) prohibition on the drinking of blood, & because the blood was to come from sacrifices that provided temporary atonement. Romans 3:25 says that God “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”.
Besides, if all sin must be atoned for by the shedding of blood, how does one explain the way God forgave people repeatedly throughout the Bible without bloody sacrifices?
Wow, that implied “unbeliever” dig was remarkably subtle! Nice!
Anyway, I agree entirely with these verses, but they don’t say the same thing you claim they do.
I love Romans 6:23 - I remember how one of the priest at the Catholic school I attended loved to repeat this verse.
Yes, both Eze. 18:11 & Rom. 6:23 say that the sinner will die, but if one reads the verses around them, it is apparent that they both say that the unrepentant sinner will suffer eternal death.
Ezekiel is talking about whether the son of one who dies in his iniquity will also bear this guilt. Verse 20 states that only the father (“the soul that sinneth”, as made apparent by the preceding verses) will “in his iniquity” die.
Verse 21 goes on to say:
“But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”
I note that this points out that one can repent & NOT die.
In Romans, Paul says the same thing, but goes on to reinforce and explain verse 21, by pointing out that we may receive eternal life in Jesus.
Neither of these say that God must be satiated with blood as a condition for his mercy & forgiveness.
Yes, all of those verses (including 2 Cor. 5:21) say that Jesus died for us, but none state that he was punished, or that punishment is a requirement for the (repentant) sinner to receive forgiveness.
Well, the Bible would seem to disagree with you.
Rom. 3:25
NIV – “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”
KJV – ”Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”
Even the verses you quoted disagree:
1 John 2:2
NIV - ”He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.”
KJV - ”And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 4:10
NIV – “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.”
KJV – “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
Matt 3:7 again notes God’s wrath for sins, but it clearly implies that there is punishment for unforgiven sin. Jesus words to the Pharisees show very clearly that our sins are forgiven in baptism – which the Pharisees were coming to receive so as to “avoid God’s coming wrath”.
H.E. Guillebaud’s answer begs the question.
He doesn’t answer it, but just repeats the assertion that God cannot forgive without meting out punishment first, which is contradictory to Jesus point just noted in Matt. 3.
Regards,
Chris
C
ChrisWRIT
Guest
I think we may be more in agreement than is obvious, although it is worth noting that “imputation” is not an antonym of “reality”.
To “impute” is to attribute, or reckon, or credit a property to someone. This reckoning may reflect a real status, or it may not.
When the Bible uses the term “imputed”, about half of the time, the imputed status corresponds with the actual status, while about 11% of the time it does not, in which case it nearly always is due to a mistake of the person doing the “imputing”, as when Judah mistakenly “reckoned” that his daughter Shelah was a prostitute.
Abrahams faith was a gift from God. Being from God, this faith was righteous, in & of itself. God wasn’t attributing righteousness to Abraham that didn’t exist, but that God gave him.
Catholics agree that all righteousness is given to us by God.
The disagreement lies in the belief of whether we actually receive these gifts of righteousness, or whether God just says we do - the “infused” vs “imputed” argument.
“Imputed” means to attribute, or credit a property or status to someone, while ‘infused” means actually giving or imbuing that status or property to someone.
If I understand your last paragraph, it sounds as if you agree with the Catholic belief in infused grace – that we actually receive, from God, the righteous gifts of faith, hope & charity, by His grace. As with Abraham, when God credits us with righteousness, it is specifically due to these righteous qualities that God has actually given us rather than falsely calling us so because of Jesus.
God gives us these qualities by His complete mercy & grace, showing His forgiveness by transforming us. Forgiveness that was obtained by Jesus perfect, atoning sacrifice – which made satisfaction for our sins. Christ was perfectly loving & obedient to the Father even through His suffering & death at “the hands of sinful men” (Luke 24:7.)
Through Christ’s act of atonement, God displays His grace & mercy by infusing us with His grace, giving us supernatural faith. We actually become righteous by way of God’s gifts. Only by receiving these gifts of God can He credit us as righteous without deception.
However, while we are transformed & made completely perfect, as scripture states, this does not occur instantly, nor does the Bible claim that it does.
God Bless,
Chris
P
Pax
Guest
P
Pax
Guest
cont. from prior post
Heb 2:1 says,
“Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest **we **drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.” This collective “we” includes the author of the book, and it makes it abundantly clear that these are believing Christian converts from Judaism.
The author over and over uses the word “we” and continues to do so in the letter. While there are many things to quote in Hebrews, we can get to the heart of the matter by focusing on some things in Chapter five that clearly establish that the author is addressing believing Christians. Hebrews 5:12-14 says, “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.”
Now please notice that the author tells those receiving his letter that by now they ought to be teachers, but that they are immature. He does not say that they are non-believers or that they are not “true believers.” Instead, the criticism of immaturity is explained by the fact that they are “unskilled in the word of righteousness.” They still need practice to distinguish good from evil, even though they should already be passed that. It is then that chapter six begins and the author warns these same people of apostasy. Right after the warning the author returns to exhorting them saying, “And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”[Hebrews 6:11-12]
And just what is the warning given to these “believing” Hebrew converts? It quite directly says the following:
Hebrews 6:4-8
" For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once** been enlightened**, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned."
John makes none of the claims about apostasy that you have made. John does not contradict the rest of scripture and neither does Paul. You view is not consistent with what the passages clearly say. You added an enormous amount of your doctrine as if that were part of the text when it clearly is not.
Heb 2:1 says,
“Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest **we **drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.” This collective “we” includes the author of the book, and it makes it abundantly clear that these are believing Christian converts from Judaism.
The author over and over uses the word “we” and continues to do so in the letter. While there are many things to quote in Hebrews, we can get to the heart of the matter by focusing on some things in Chapter five that clearly establish that the author is addressing believing Christians. Hebrews 5:12-14 says, “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.”
Now please notice that the author tells those receiving his letter that by now they ought to be teachers, but that they are immature. He does not say that they are non-believers or that they are not “true believers.” Instead, the criticism of immaturity is explained by the fact that they are “unskilled in the word of righteousness.” They still need practice to distinguish good from evil, even though they should already be passed that. It is then that chapter six begins and the author warns these same people of apostasy. Right after the warning the author returns to exhorting them saying, “And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”[Hebrews 6:11-12]
And just what is the warning given to these “believing” Hebrew converts? It quite directly says the following:
Hebrews 6:4-8
" For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once** been enlightened**, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned."
John makes none of the claims about apostasy that you have made. John does not contradict the rest of scripture and neither does Paul. You view is not consistent with what the passages clearly say. You added an enormous amount of your doctrine as if that were part of the text when it clearly is not.
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Pax
Guest
I get your point, but I do not agree with it for the reasons and understandings that I presented. I agree that Peter denied the Lord and was forgiven and restored. I pointed that out myself. It is important to remember that I also pointed out others that Jesus prayed for that fell away. Your logic would demand that they also would have followed suit with Peter and would have been forgiven and restored. Unfortunately, not everyone “repents.”
Peter repented and scripture even says that Judas repented but there is a difference between the two and their respective repentance. Scripture says this about Judas:
Matthew 27:3-5
“When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.”
This all seems okay until we read the last verse where Judas throws down the money, departs, and hanged himself. This final act says a great deal about the repentance of Judas. Paul speaks of repentance and has this to say which I think is most applicable to Peter and Judas and their respective repentance:
2 Corinthians 7:10
“For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.”
It would appear that Peter had the former and Judas had the latter type of repentance. Now the question, once again, boils down to “How is it that God desires that all be saved, and that Jesus prays for all of the apostles and all of us, yet not all of the apostles were saved and not all of us will be saved, and not all men will be saved?”
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Faith is such a wonderful thing given by God–why would anyone want it to be left alone?
C
ChrisWRIT
Guest
On reflection, it seems possible that God may require blood in atonement, although not necessarily for punishment.
While there seem to be exceptions where God forgave someone without blood, there is likely something about them I am missing (and with Scripture, who can claim to understand everything, right?) !
That isn’t to say that God punished Jesus, as again, that would lead to God being either unjust or a liar.
Jesus said, "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord…" (John 10:17-18)
Jesus atonement included both his love & obedience as well as His death. Jesus, as our high priest offered a sacrifice that was sufficient once and for all. His obedience was not necessary simply to fulfill the scripture, but to make complete atonement.
Anyway, thanks for the food for thought! I think I’ve managed to drift quite off the primary topic of faith alone, so I’ll sign off for now.
God bless,
Chris
While there seem to be exceptions where God forgave someone without blood, there is likely something about them I am missing (and with Scripture, who can claim to understand everything, right?) !
That isn’t to say that God punished Jesus, as again, that would lead to God being either unjust or a liar.
Jesus said, "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord…" (John 10:17-18)
Jesus atonement included both his love & obedience as well as His death. Jesus, as our high priest offered a sacrifice that was sufficient once and for all. His obedience was not necessary simply to fulfill the scripture, but to make complete atonement.
Anyway, thanks for the food for thought! I think I’ve managed to drift quite off the primary topic of faith alone, so I’ll sign off for now.
God bless,
Chris
K
kaycee
Guest
I am somewhat suprised that you did not deal with the text directly. The truth of John leaves no doubt as to what he meant.
1 John 2:19-20: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;
The meaning is clear and logical. If they were of us, (true believers), they would have continuted with us.
In other words if they were truly redeemed, regenerated, they would have remained with us.
2 Tim 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Rom 11:29** for the gifts and the calling** of God are irrevocable
I would not call them true believers.
enjoyinggodministries.com/article/hebrews-64-6-and-the-possibility-of-apostasy
S
sandusky
Guest
You’re misunderstanding, Chris. I was agreeing with you that a blood sacrifice for a sin offering was waived under the law if one was poor and couldn’t afford it (Lev 5:11).
I cited Lev 17:11 which states that blood is given to the people for atonement; however, that OT blood sacrifice for sin saved no one (Heb 10:4), but pointed to Christ.
Yes, God did forebear His punishment for sin, but that means neither indifference to, nor remission of sin; nevertheless, with Christ, God publicly displayed His wrath toward sinners, when He poured out His wrath on Christ upon the Cross (Rom 3:25ff); that is the wisdom, and the power of God perceived by the unbeliever as foolishness (1 Cor 1:18ff).
**Leviticus 17:11
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’
Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:22
…without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.**
ISTM that the gist of what you are saying is that God was so pleased with Christ’s perfectly obedient life that He rewarded Christ with crucifixion; is that correct?
Why did God crucify Jesus?
The verses I cited state that Christ was a propitiation for sin; what did Christ, as
propitiator, propitiate?
Does God punish sin, Chris?
G
guanophore
Guest
The fact that people perceived HIm as punished does not make it so. Jesus was righteous, and therefore immune to punishment. He carried ours,not His.
I agree with you that Peter ultimately was preserved in faith due to the prayer of Christ. But if you look carefully at the language in this passage, it is clear that satan demanded to sift all of them. However, Jesus only prayed for Peter. Therefore, all those who hope to be preserved in faith better get included with Peter. Jesus never promises that individuals will not fall into sin, only the church.
Acts 17:10-11
11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessaloni’ca, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
No need for an apology on that point. The problem that most Sola Scripturists make with the Berean reference is not looking into Scripture, but that they are deemed “more noble” because they “received the word with all eagerness”. This is where many fail today, not receiving the Word from the Apostolic Source, as the Bereans did. Instead of trusting in what is brought by the Apostles, they spurn the source,and make themselves the source.
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Pax
Guest
Of course you wouldn’t call those that apostasize true believers. You have set up this category of “true” believers against what scripture says. Scripture does not make your distinction. Scripture simply says that people believe, they do not believe, or they believe then fall away. Your category is an artificial one established against scripture to support your doctrines.
You have some very interesting viewpoints that are contrary to scripture
You believe that only a juridical form of justification is necessary for salvation although scripture says otherwise. I asked you to render proof that scripture excludes everything else for salvation and you did not do it. I then showed that sanctification is necessary for salvation yet you remain unphased.
I will again list a few verses of scripture showing that sanctification is necessary for salvation.
Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified. (our heavenly inheritance is tied to our sanctification. You do not inherit eternal life without first being sanctified.)
Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.
(another very direct connection…sanctification’s end is eternal life.)
Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, (those that are sanctified are adopted sons and daughters…they have the inheritance of eternal life.)
2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (salvation through sanctification by the spirit)
It should now be obvious that we are not saved without being fully sanctified. That means that we are not saved by faith alone. Likewise, scripture says another thing or two that proves that we are not saved by faith alone. Here’s another one:
Romans 8:24 (KJV)
“For we are saved by hope”
You have also said that we are justified/saved by faith alone and that no one can lose their salvation if they have faith and have been justified. I then gave the examples of people that scripture clearly indicates as having faith, been believers, and then lost their salvation. Once again you remained unphased.
Now we have just discussed the topic of apostasy and you have once again refused to accept what scripture says about it. The Book of Hebews is explicit, yet you say you wouldn’t call them “true believers” Please explain this without some website. Please explain how someone is not a true believer and does not have justifying faith if they have “been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come.” [per Hebrews 6:4-5]
The apostle Peter also talks about the saved and warns those reading his letter about what can happen to them. He says:
“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”[see 2 Peter 2:20-22]
Explain to me how someone cannot be a believer/jjustified if they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Can you think of anyone who has escaped the defilements of the world that was not justified?
Explain to me how falling back into the life they had before could actually be worse for them if they had not actually come to faith and been justified.
Explain to me how anyone can know the way of righteousness and be “washed” if they had not justified.
You are rejecting the clear words of scripture.
By the way, I said everything needed about 1 John 2:18-29 prior to your comments. There is nothing more that needs to be added.
I went to the web link that you posted concerning apostasy. I will place my analysis from my prior posts and this one against that presentation and let everyone else decide which seems to be true. I noticed that the author fails to refute the problem of the collective “we” as well as the elements I listed in this post concerning being “enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come.” Sorry, but they were justified believers, and the author is giving them a warning not to fall into apostasy. Any other explanation makes the comments on apostasy totally meaningless. It should also be noted that a person cannot apostatize unless they believed it in the first place. Take the time to read the definition of apostasy.
G
guanophore
Guest
I realize it is very difficult to dispense of Hebrews otherwise, but the text clearly indicates that they are “partakers”. That is a reference to the initiated only.
Pax pretty much covered it all before I got a chance.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
A good question, which is actually addressed by our Lord in his parable of the talents in Matthew’s gospel. We know what happens to the lazy servant for having buried the talent he received from his master. Jesus tells us in the same gospel not everyone who says “Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who “do” the will of our heavenly Father shall enter it. “A tree is known by its fruit.” It would appear that Matthew’s church held the Catholic doctrine of faith and works.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
S
sandusky
Guest
**Romans 8:30-33
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?
God is the one who justifies;**Pax, according to v30, what does God also do to each and every person He justifies?
G
guanophore
Guest
This passage is speaking of the saints who have gone on before us. They are those that fill the great “cloud of witnesses”. Some of their names are in Heb. 11. We who have also been called and justified may also be glorified, but this does not occur in this life (except if you are Enoch, or Elijah, I suppose.)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed.
Apostacy means to fall away. One cannot fall from someplace they are not, or fall a way from something they never grasped hold of in the first place.
Sometimes, it seems to me that Calvin forgot to read Revelation when making his soterological speculations.
Rev 2:2-7
2 "‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have, you hate the works of the Nicola’itans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
What do you suppose it means, to have one’s lampstand removed? Without the light of Christ, can anyone be saved? I think not!
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