Faith Alone

[banjo]

Do/Done in the context of salvation

Do = people vainly seeking to earn their salvation

Done = Christ Jesus’ finished work on the cross provides salvation

Faith/Works in the context of salvation

Faith = accepting Christ Jesus’ finished work on the cross for your salvation

Works = a thankful life of service unto the God who has saved you

.

Jesus has given us the law of love. Commanded us, actually, to love one another as He has loved us (Jn 15:12-14). If you love someone you must do something for that person. This is the reason why Catholics ‘do good works’. This, I believe, is the point being made in Jas 2:14-17. Love must be manifested. Jas 2:14-17 corresponds exactly with Lk 10 (the Good Samaritan) and Lk 16 (the rich man and Lazarus). The Scripture does not tell us that the rich man was a great sinner, only that while he lived in plenty he neglected the poor. If he possessed love he did not manifest it.
As for merit, the Catholic position for this is clearly stated in the Catechism sections 2006 – 2011. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#2008] There is scriptural basis for this teaching in the words of Jesus in Mk 4:24 and Lk 6:38 (“the measure you measure with will be measured back to you”). These words are reiterated by St. Paul in 2 Cor 9:6, “he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly.” The Catechism of the Council of Trent even makes a case for it from Jn 14:2, “In my Father’s house are many rooms.”

 

[moondweller]

News flash…

Protestants, ists, isms are a break off branch, a splinter group, separated brethen of the Catholic Church. Christianity comes to you thru the Catholic Church. Why do you think it is called “protestant”, they were literially protesting Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church.

Biblical fact:

The ancient faith through which God justifies the believer, apart from works, was demonstrated over 2000 years before Catholicism ever began to develop and take hold in the West in the Middle Ages.Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned (credited) it (Abram’s faith) to him as righteousness."This ancient principle of justification through faith alone did not change since the days of Abraham as demonstrated by Paul, an Apostle, on whose teachings the church is still being built (Eph. 2:20-21):Rom 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (i.e., grace), but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is credited as righteousness,"Those “ists” and “isms” that incorporate works into their doctrine of salvation and justification are those that have “splintered” “broken off,” “separated” themselves from the ancient faith - that faith through which God justifies the ungodly.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Biblical fact:

The ancient faith through which God justifies the believer, apart from works, was demonstrated over 2000 years before Catholicism ever began to develop and take hold in the West in the Middle Ages.

Catholicism is the continuation of the chosen people from the O.T. Some say that Catholicism began with the birth of Christ, and some say it began at the crufixion of Christ. I really doesn’t matter when Catholicism started, it ,biblically speaking, is of Christ. Your free not to believe that, but that fact can’t be disproven.Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned (credited) it (Abram’s faith) to him as righteousness."This ancient principle of justification through faith alone did not change since the days of Abraham as demonstrated by Paul, an Apostle, on whose teachings the church is still being built. No one knowledgable about the Jewish faith will ever agree with you that they are a faith alone faith. If faith alone was all that was important in the old testament, then why burnt offerings, why passover?

Rom 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (i.e., grace), but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is credited as righteousness,"Those “ists” and “isms” that incorporate works into their doctrine of salvation and justification are those that have “splintered” “broken off,” “separated” themselves from the ancient faith - that faith through which God justifies the ungodly.

Your understanding of Christ and his Church is misguided.

 

[Thing]

Biblical fact:

The ancient faith through which God justifies the believer, apart from works, was demonstrated over 2000 years before Catholicism ever began to develop and take hold in the West in the Middle Ages.Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned (credited) it (Abram’s faith) to him as righteousness."This ancient principle of justification through faith alone did not change since the days of Abraham as demonstrated by Paul, an Apostle, on whose teachings the church is still being built (Eph. 2:20-21):Rom 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (i.e., grace), but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is credited as righteousness,"Those “ists” and “isms” that incorporate works into their doctrine of salvation and justification are those that have “splintered” “broken off,” “separated” themselves from the ancient faith - that faith through which God justifies the ungodly.

Another fact?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

It seems that none other than an Apostle may disagree with your view.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

You can know the message that Christ died for our sins, once for all (1 Pet. 3:18), and now forgiveness of sins is proclaimed (Acts 13:38) - but you don’t believe it. You can know that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6) - but you don’t believe it. You can know that upon belief, and apart from works, God justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) - but you don’t believe it. Are you God? How can you know anyone faith.

So you, in your unbelief, add to the Gospel message and argue for works in your defense. You can claim Christ as Lord and do all sorts of works in His name (Matt. 7:21-23) - but yet you never believed, and Christ knows it. Again, are you God?

There’s only one faith through which God saves and justifies, and that’s a humble faith. The faith of those who come to Him bearing nothing to offer and willing to receive everything in return according to His grace, believing what Christ has done, "once for all."

You are passing judgements over another human beings belief here. Do you have that power in your faith, only God has that power. The rest of christianity sees your response as a violation of the first commandment?

You seem to want to ascribe to me a faith created in your own mind that bears no resemblance to Catholicism with Christ at the head of the Church.

Prove to me that Catholicism is a works based faith from scripture, the C.C or any doctor of the Chruch, any Church father.

I’ll save you the trouble. You can’t!

The Catholicism that exists in your head isn’t scriptural. The Catholicism started by Christ is responsible for giving you the scriptures and that’s biblical.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Such faith is not consigned to Catholics, Protestants, “ists,” or “isms.” God saves and justifies individual men and women through faith - not religions.

False!

God didn’t justify just persons in the O.T.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Does intellectual faith save?

What else is required for a “humble” faith that saves,outside of an intellectual faith?

A profession of faith, living your faith, anything else required to be saved?

That question may have been to difficult to answer.

More than faith must be required. Now your try to add to what we understand a pure faith to add stuff to the meaning of faith to have your beliefs validated in your mind somehow.

Now you say we are saved by “A Humble Faith Alone” and another person here that speaks from your position states that we are saved by God’s grace and repentance well. That’s no longer “faith alone”.

Coming to Faith requires you to do something, doesn’t it. Your trying to merit your salvation. It is something that you do, it forces God to save you in your mind.

 

[moondweller]

No they don’t, Pax. They link the two, just not as closely as the CC does in which the two become, essentially, one.

AMEN! Sanctification meaning “set apart” (in Christ) while justification meaning “made righteous” (in Christ).

Not identifying the fundamental difference between justification and sanctification in the Bible is a seminal error in Catholic theology.

The justification that one receives is on the basis of the righteousness of Christ; therefore, it’s God’s righteousness “in Christ” that the believer obtains (2 Cor 5:17), thus his position before God is one of perfect justification, perfect righteousness; therefore, he is no longer guilty before God, he has peace with God, and he is no longer subject to any condemnation (Col 2:13ff; Rom 5:1ff; Rom 8:1ff; cf 5:24).

Also, that means that no one is more righteous than another one—justification “levels the field” in that respect. However, one may be more “sanctified” than another.

Absolutely. Well stated. However, It should be clearly pointed out that there is a positional sanctification revealed in the Scriptures, as well. That of every believer already being perfectly “sanctified in Christ.”

The Apostle Paul addresses and identifies the believers in Corinth in such a manner:1 Cor 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:"This is significant what with the many problems Paul had to address within that spiritually immature body of believers. He goes on to teach:1 Cor 1:30 "But by His doing (not our’s) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."The fact that “one may be more sanctified than anther” only pertains to the believer’s faith walk while here on earth in these yet unredeemed bodies. But this experiential (practical) sanctification (e.g., Rom. 12:1-2, and all the exhortations to holy living while on earth) does not effect a change in the believer’s positional sanctification, being now “in Christ.” Hence, positional sanctification also “levels the field,” having been “bought with a price” (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23 - the shed blood of Christ, i.e., redeemed).

And because of his sanctified position in Christ the believer is guaranteed glorification with Christ (1 Jn. 3:1-3; Col. 3:4). Bodily resurrection or translation being the believer’s ultimate sanctification.

Positional sanctification is directly related to what Paul goes on to teach the Corinthian believers in 2 Cor. 5:17:“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (cf. Eph. 2:10).

 

[sandusky]

Absolutely. Well stated. However, It should be clearly pointed out that there is a positional sanctification revealed in the Scriptures, as well. That of every believer already being perfectly “sanctified in Christ.”

The Apostle Paul addresses and identifies the believers in Corinth in such a manner:1 Cor 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:"This is significant what with the many problems Paul had to address within that spiritually immature body of believers. He goes on to teach:1 Cor 1:30 "But by His doing (not our’s) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."The fact that “one may be more sanctified than anther” only pertains to the believer’s faith walk while here on earth in these yet unredeemed bodies. But this experiential (practical) sanctification (e.g., Rom. 12:1-2, and all the exhortations to holy living while on earth) does not effect a change in the believer’s positional sanctification, being now “in Christ.” Hence, positional sanctification also “levels the field,” having been “bought with a price” (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23 - the shed blood of Christ, i.e., redeemed).

And because of his sanctified position in Christ the believer is guaranteed glorification with Christ (1 Jn. 3:1-3; Col. 3:4). Bodily resurrection or translation being the believer’s ultimate sanctification.

Positional sanctification is directly related to what Paul goes on to teach the Corinthian believers in 2 Cor. 5:17:“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (cf. Eph. 2:10).

Thank you for pointing that out, moondweller; sanctification is both positional, and practical.

 

[guanophore]

Catholicism ever began to develop and take hold in the West in the Middle Ages.

I am afraid you have been misinformed about your family history, moondweller. The Catholic Faith was taught by the Apostles, it did not “develop an take hold in the West in the Middle Ages”, either. On the contrary, the Eastern Catholic Churches formed first, before Catholicism spread to Rome, and to Europe. However, this faith, referred to in the book of Acts as “The Way”, was taught all over the Roman Empire before the canon of your scripture was closed by that Church in the fourth century.

This ancient principle of justification through faith alone did not change since the days of Abraham as demonstrated by Paul, an Apostle, on whose teachings the church is still being built (Eph. 2:20-21):Rom 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (i.e., grace), but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is credited as righteousness,"Those “ists” and “isms” that incorporate works into their doctrine of salvation and justification are those that have “splintered” “broken off,” “separated” themselves from the ancient faith - that faith through which God justifies the ungodly.

I agree with you about justification by faith, however, this justification has always expressed itself in the holy acts of the redeemed. It appears that you have not understood the difference between sacred works, and works of the flesh.

 

[guanophore]

AMEN! Sanctification meaning “set apart” (in Christ) while justification meaning “made righteous” (in Christ).

It seems that you are in for more learning than just your family history! It is true that part of sanctification is to be set apart, but it is also about being “made holy”. Sanctification is the process of purification in which we participate on this earth where we are being made into the image of God. It is not only set apart, but being “made” apart - holy. We become the righteousness of God in Christ that He has declared us to be when we are justified.

Not identifying the fundamental difference between justification and sanctification in the Bible is a seminal error in Catholic theology.

It seems to me that you are in no position to speak about this point, since you don’t appear to understand either one!

However, It should be clearly pointed out that there is a positional sanctification revealed in the Scriptures, as well. That of every believer already being perfectly “sanctified in Christ.”

Baptism perfectly sanctifies. Then there is life after that…

The Apostle Paul addresses and identifies the believers in Corinth in such a manner:1 Cor 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:"This is significant what with the many problems Paul had to address within that spiritually immature body of believers. He goes on to teach:1 Cor 1:30 "But by His doing (not our’s) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."The fact that “one may be more sanctified than anther” only pertains to the believer’s faith walk while here on earth in these yet unredeemed bodies. But this experiential (practical) sanctification (e.g., Rom. 12:1-2, and all the exhortations to holy living while on earth) does not effect a change in the believer’s positional sanctification, being now “in Christ.” Hence, positional sanctification also “levels the field,” having been “bought with a price” (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23 - the shed blood of Christ, i.e., redeemed).

It is very possible for a person to fail to live according to the sanctification that was imparted to them when they were baptized. In such cases, the last state is actually worse than the first. It is also not a matter of being trapped in a “physical fallen body” that is the whole problem. Jesus is clear that the fallenness comes from the heart, soul, and mind, none of which are necessarily fallen due to the body.

And because of his sanctified position in Christ the believer is guaranteed glorification with Christ (1 Jn. 3:1-3; Col. 3:4). Bodily resurrection or translation being the believer’s ultimate sanctification.

It appears that you have misunderstood the Apostolic Teaching on glorification.

Positional sanctification is directly related to what Paul goes on to teach the Corinthian believers in 2 Cor. 5:17:“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (cf. Eph. 2:10).

And many who were made new failed to live according to that new position, and Paul was equally clear that such persons would not enter the Kingdom of heaven.

 

[Pax]

Thank you for pointing that out, moondweller; sanctification is both positional, and practical.

Let’s take a look at some these things. Please show me in scripture where sanctification is defined as “positional” vs. “practical.” This is nonsense. Sanctification is a state of holiness and is one of degrees. It is not, however, two different things or types.

moondweller also claims that the Church is wrong in not dividing justification and sanctification to his liking. Let’s see if scripture supports moondweller or the Catholic Church.

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Are we not justified by the blood of Christ, and did he not suffer for our justification?

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

If you are a participant in the heavenly inheritance are you not also justified?

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Are we not justified by faith in Jesus?

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Are not those that are justified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints?

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Is not the end of justification to be eternal life?

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

Does the one who justifies and those that are justified have but one Father? Is Jesus ashamed to call the justified brothers and sisters?

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Is it not by God’s will that we have been justified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all?

Heb 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Are we not justified by the blood of the covenant?

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

Are we not justified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood?

2 Thess 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Are we not to be saved through justification by the Spirit and belief in the truth?

I think the Catholic Church has it right moondweller.

 

[Pax]

moondweller,

Galatians 5:24 says,

“And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”

Scripture says elsewhere that “…our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.”

This sounds pretty much like the passage from Galatians 5:24. So my question to you is as follows:

Does crucifying the flesh and thereby dying to sin which thus frees us from sin, pertain to sanctification, justification, or both?

 

[Good_Fella]

Biblical fact:

The ancient faith through which God justifies the believer, apart from works, was demonstrated over 2000 years before Catholicism ever began to develop and take hold in the West in the Middle Ages.

Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned (credited) it (Abram’s faith) to him as righteousness."This ancient principle of justification through faith alone did not change since the days of Abraham as demonstrated by Paul, an Apostle, on whose teachings the church is still being built (Eph. 2:20-21):Rom 4:4 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (i.e., grace), but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is credited as righteousness,”

Catholicism did not begin to emerge and develop in the Middle Ages. I believe you are unfamiliar with the writings of the Church Fathers of the first eight centuries - the patristic period. Irenaeus (A.D. 180) is the first Church Father to have traditionally taught that justification brings about an infused - as opposed to an imputed - righteousness. This righteousness cannot be complete apart from our virtuous deeds and spiritual disposition: “so likewise men, if they do truly progress in faith towards better things, and receive the Spirit of God, and bring forth the fruit thereof, shall be spiritual, as being planted in the paradise of God.” Our Lord does tell us that we are known by our fruit and that a tree which bears bad fruit should be cut down and cast into the fire (cf. Mt 7, 16-20). Faith is not something as instant and permanent as an intellectual apprehension. It is something initially planted by the grace of God and must be nurtured and tended to by ourselves with God’s gracious assistance. We can ruin what is originally planted by the Spirit by wilfully resisting or rejecting God’s infused grace. And so Ireneaus adds we are justified by grace through faith and works: “Wherefore also the Lord promised to send the Comforter, who should join us to God. For as a compacted lump of dough cannot be formed of dry wheat without fluid matter, nor can a loaf possess unity, so, in like manner neither could we, being many, be made one in Christ Jesus without the water from heaven. And as dry earth does not bring forth unless it receive moisture, in like manner we also, being originally a dry tree, could never have brought forth fruit unto life without the voluntary rain from above. For our bodies have received unity among themselves by means of that layer which leads to incorruption; but our souls, by means of the Spirit. Wherefore both (Faith and Works) are necessary, since both contribute towards the life of God.” I suggest you see ‘Against Heresies’, 5:10, 1; 3:17. As the Church is still being built until the end of time, so are we as individual spiritual temples. It would appear that the Catholic Church was the early Church.

Concerning Genesis 15, 6, Abraham is further justified here in an on-going process of justification. It is true that Abraham is justified by his faith in God, but his justification does not initially occur in Genesis 15. Hebrews 11, 8-10 confirms that his justification initially occurred in Genesis 12, 1-4 - twenty-five years earlier. Thus it is obvious that our justification is not a single and complete event in our lives but a continual movement of growth in holiness. We may lose our justification through faith if we aren’t careful with the plant or dry earth that originally constitute our earthly being and must be watered by grace. Our righteousness before God is finally determined at the end of our earthly existence and will be brought to light on the Day of Judgment. Shall we be judged as a tree that has borne good fruit or bad fruit? The responsibilty ultimately lies with us who are free to accept or reject God’s saving grace.

In Romans 4, 4, Paul is not necessarily telling us that our good works play no part in our justification and salvation and that only faith or belief in the merits of Christ’s Passion is required of us. He is suggesting that there are other things that could be added to faith that are not considered works. He has ulterior motives in mind. One can do a good deed, but not necessarily out of love, without which faith would be dead. Paul condemned only one kind of work, which are works of debt (Rom 3, 28; 4:4). Let us not isolate scriptural passages and remove them from the entire picture: the Protestant fallacy. Like Paul, Catholics condemn the notion that man can put God in his debt to save him by his own works. God will eventually judge us by reading our hearts. Works alone does not save just as faith alone doesn’t save.

In Phil. 4, 17 Paul exhorts us to seek the fruit which increases our credit. In other words, good works increase our justification and grant us merit in the eyes of God. And what we merit by our good deeds opens the door for more abundant grace. However, our good works and merits originate with a merciful God who has undeservedly saved us by the blood of Christ. Our good works, however sincere, are meaningless and futile apart from Christ’s Passion, for originally we are nothing but dry earth in need of God’s saving grace. God rewards good works done in his grace with more grace (Eph 6, 8) on our path of increased justification towards salvation. Our justification is not something static. :nope: And our justification increases along with our faith which is completed by doing good works, whose merits ultimately rest on Christ’s death on the Cross. Faith is increased as a result of our obedience to the will of God. Our obedience amounts to the act of good works ( 2 Cor 10, 15). Disobedience is a sign of the absence of faith. Nor did God ever command us to believe in him. On the contrary, he has commanded us to love Him and our neighbour: the two greatest commandments, according to Jesus, upon which the other eight rest. And for Paul, love is an act of faith, essentially a good work on our voluntary part, an act of the human will in correspondence with the Divine will ( Rom 12, 10; 1 Cor 13, 2). Indeed, Paul tells us that the doers of the Law, not the hearers, will be justified in the end ( Rom 2, 13). But what we do is worthless apart from faith (Rom 4, 4-6), for God is not in our debt, we are in his debt and undeservedly in need of his mercy.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Pax]

No they don’t, Pax. Show me where either of your sources says ”we deny the connection of regeneration at justification…?”

No they don’t, Pax. Show me where either of your sources says ”we deny that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared beforehand…?”

Okay, I’ll quote them again and I will highlight the areas that I am referring to.

James Buchanan states that “justification by faith is** a legal or forensic term** used in scripture to denote the acceptance of anyone as righteous in the sight of God.” Nowhere does Buchanan say anything about regeneration. He believes that justification is merely an imputation…a legal or forensic term.

The Westminster statement on justification says:
“Justification is altogether **a legal declarative act **on God’s part as the supreme judge. We deny that justification is any sense a moral transformation or inner renewal. In justification, God legally declares **the sinner who in himself is still guilty and polluted **to be righteous in Christ. Justification involves **only the legal imputation or legal account **of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner. We deny that justification is by a grace at conversion that enables sinners to do the law unto their justification.”

What I have highlighted is exactly what I said and what I am talking about. This view of justification denies regeneration in that it is merely an imputed righteousness. This denies what scripture says about God’s word, intent, and the power of His grace. I will demonstrate this with the following:

God tells us the following in Isaiah 55:10-11

“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.”

In Ezk 36:25-28 God says:

“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.”

ACTS 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

An examination of the passage in Isaiah reveals that God’s grace goes out in power and that it accomplishes his purpose and that it prospers in the thing which he sends it. What is God’s purpose in giving us his grace and the gift of faith? God’s purpose is to reconcile us to himself and to make us a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works.[Eph 21:8-10]

It can further be said that God’s purpose is to make us “…conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”[Romans 8:29] Jesus is the first born and we are born anew among many brethren. It is God’s grace that accomplishes the purpose of conforming us to the image of his son Jesus.

An examination of the passage from Ezekiel reveals that it is a solid prefiguring of baptism and Christian initiation as outlined in the passage from the book of Acts. In baptism we born are anew.[John 3:7] Both Ezekiel and Acts tell us something about what it means to be a new creation.

–Ezekiel says, “…you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”
–The Book of Acts says, “so that your sins may be forgiven.”

–Ezekiel says, “A new heart I will give you.”
–The Book of Acts says, “they were cut to the heart.”

–Ezekiel says, “and a new spirit I will put within you;”
–The book of Acts says, “and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

It is clear then that being born anew or being a new creation involves several things. God will change our hearts, cleanse us from original sin as well as all personal sins we have committed, and he will give us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Scripture elaborates on all of this in many places in the NT. All of this is accomplished at the point of justification and we are made holy. Paul says it this way, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”[1 Cor 6:9-11]

Paul also addresses the issue of what it means to be a new creation in the following:

Romans 6:1-6
WHAT SHALL we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 7:4-6
Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

2 Cor 5:14-17
For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

Gal 6:7-15
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh that would compel you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For even those who receive circumcision do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may glory in your flesh. But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Gal 5:5-6
For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Gal 5:1-26
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.

1 Cor 9:21
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law–not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ.

From these scriptures we can clearly see what it means to be a new creation in Christ Jesus. Much more can be said about this in terms of how this is related to “adoption.” For example we see the power of God’s grace as previously described in Ezekiel being made manifest in the spirit of adoption in John 3:1-2 which says:

“SEE WHAT love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
Beloved, we are God’s children now” Just like in Ezekiel, God’s word goes out in power. When God declares us children we actually become his children, and his grace will fulfill his purpose and his grace will prosper within us.

Peter says, “His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

All of this sheds light on what it means to be a new creation. Eph 2:8-10 speaks of justification in the juridical sense as well as the transformational sense. We are not simply declared righteous but we are made righteous because God’s word goes out in power and does not return to him empty. We are made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. God’s word and grace accomplish that which is his purpose and they prosper within us unto salvation.

What is loftier, holier, and godlier…a declared righteousness by imputation of Christ’s merits, or to actually be made righteous by his merits and to be a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works? Which is more scriptural? Which is more consistent with God’s power? Which is more consistent with his purpose? Which view reflects not only God’s purpose but also shows how God’s grace prospers in the thing for which he sent it? Scripture indicates that it is the Catholic view which includes a renewal and rebirth of the inner man as opposed to only the legal imputation or legal account of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner.

I hope this helps.

 

[Good_Fella]

It’s stated that elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world…and that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ at that time… How do you account for that?

That’s not what the scripture says; scripture says that Adam wasn’t deceived (1 Tim 2:14); Adam’s sin was putting his desire above God’s command.

Because of that, man now has an autonomous “streak” running through him, and he considers himself an authority unto himself; therefore, he rejects the authority of his Creator.

Ones understanding of the effects of the fall upon the creature determines his understand of the fall’s corrective.

Adam was responsible for the fall, and the effect of Adam’s fall has rendered the creature unable to correct its effects; were the creature able to correct the effect of the fall, then God needn’t have come in the flesh and take upon Himself the punishment that man deserved.

Correct; God’s predestination in eternity past understands the fall as an eternal fact. There are no surprises for God.

Why not?

Men are not robots, neither are men completely free. Men are utterly dependent upon God for all things.

God didn’t make Adam sin; he freely chose to do so.

First of all, pardon the confusion by my careless expression which was meant to be used figuratively. It was Eve whom the serpent tempted, but as a result Eve approached her husband with the forbidden fruit. Adam listened to Eve instead of God, who commanded him not to touch the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Nontheless, he also transgressed by having disobeyed God and committing a bad act. He rejected the truth of what God had said about the fatal consequence of eating the forbidden fruit. So he put faith in himself instead of God, seeking his own satisfaction apart from God which is not true happiness. He fell for his own lie. But the point is Adam freely chose to disobey God and place himself above him: a free act of transgression which God could not be responsible for. The notion of a predetermined elected few presupposes that God predetermined the fall of Adam in order to arrange this predetermined election.

Paul tells the Ephesians that God has predestined us out of love to be his adopted sons in Christ Jesus (1, 5). But “predestination” means that God knows what we will freely do before we do it, whether we will accept or reject his saving grace. If God has “predetermined” our actions with regard to our response to his grace, then there is no room for human free will. The Greek word for “predestination” means to know or declare in advance by (divine) foreknowledge. And we cannot possibly know in advance whether we will be saved. We will know for sure after this life pending Judgment Day. We are not omniscient, so we can only hope that we have been saved. Your Protestant understanding of the word “predestination” is a misinterpretation of the word, which explains why you believe your personal salvation is eternally guaranteed. Keep in mind that Peter, too, writes about the elect with regard to God’s foreknowledge only. Knowing something will happen does not determine its happening. And we cannot possibly know what God knows about our individual eternal destiny.

The effects of the fall can be corrected by God’s grace if we freely choose to accept His gift and thereby lead responsible Christian lives. And we cannot hope to be saved unless we do good works in a state of sanctifying grace. There is no merit for us by giving alms to the poor while in a state of unrepented mortal sin. Anyway, by the grace of God we attain the salvation He desires for “all” of us through perseverance in faith and good works.

If we mean by “predestination” God has predetermined whom he will save and damn for all time, He could not have predestined an elected few to be saved, for God is not the author of our disobedience to Him. In order to be saved, one has to be disobedient to begin with. You agree with us that God did not deliberately fashion Adam to sin, although he created him knowing that he would fall from grace. Our free will is that stone only God can create in order to be too heavy for him to lift. God does not impose himself on us. He desires that we freely come to him. If our individual and personal salvation has been predetermined, then we must be preprogrammed by his irresistible grace in like manner of robots.

If man is not completely free in his human will, then how is it he can be autonomous at the same time. Adam was created in God’s image, therefore he was autonomous before he fell from God’s grace by freely disobeying him. Without autonomy we cannot decide for ourselves what course we should take. And Adam was no automaton. But Adam (Man) did diminish and impair his freedom by enslaving himself to sin. Now its up to him to pull himself out of the mud puddle by reaching out to God’s extended helping hand. We are all invited to. To continue…

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

moondweller also claims that the Church is wrong in not dividing justification and sanctification to his liking. Let’s see if scripture supports moondweller or the Catholic Church.

Pax, the point you want to make is that justification and sanctification are not divided, and yet, none of the verses you post mention justification; why is that?

Pax:

Let’s take a look at some these things. Please show me in scripture where sanctification is defined as “positional” vs. “practical.” This is nonsense. Sanctification is a state of holiness and is one of degrees. It is not, however, two different things or types.

Positional sanctification concerns the believer’s having been set apart to God in Christ (1 Cor 1:2). It is related to our position, or standing in the Lord (1:30; 6:11).

It occurs at salvation, resulting in the believer’s permanent state of sanctification (1 Cor 6:11), with Christ as his sanctification (1 Cor 1:30).

It’s an instaneous work of the Father (Eph 2:10), based on Christs’ death (Heb 13:12), wrought by the HS (1 Pet 1:2, 1 Cor 6:11; cf Gal 3:27), in response to salvational faith (Acts 26:18).

It belongs to every saved person, regardless of his or her condition of daily life (1 Cor 6:11).

Being perfect and complete for every gospel believer, positional sanctification will continue forever (Heb 10:10).

Practical sanctification concerns the spiritual condition of the believer’s everyday life (1 Pet 1:5). God is holy, and He wants His people to increasingly express holiness (moral perfection, or sinlessness) in their daily lives (Mt 5:48; 1 Jn 2;1). The believer expresses that holiness when he separates himself from that which is morally unlike God (Col 3:8; 2 Cor 6:14-7:1), when he yields himself to Christ (Rom 6:11-13), and do His will (Eph 6:6; Rom 6:19-22; 12:1-2).

Practical sanctification takes place throughout the gospel believer’s lifetime; he never reaches the place, in this life, where he has no further need of greater holiness and separation from sin.

Final sanctification is experienced when the Lord returns for His Church. The believer’s body will then be delivered from inherent corruption and will be made like the Lord’s (Php 3:20-21). At that time, the believer will be brought into complete conformity to His character and humanity
(1 Jn 3:2). From then on, the believer shall be as holy in his condition as he is in his position
(1 Cor 1:8; Eph 1:4; 5:26-27; 1 Thess 5:23; Jude 24).

 

[Pax]

Pax, the point you want to make is that justification and sanctification are not divided, and yet, none of the verses you post mention justification; why is that?

Positional sanctification concerns the believer’s having been set apart to God in Christ (1 Cor 1:2). It is related to our position, or standing in the Lord (1:30; 6:11).

It occurs at salvation, resulting in the believer’s permanent state of sanctification (1 Cor 6:11), with Christ as his sanctification (1 Cor 1:30).

It’s an instaneous work of the Father (Eph 2:10), based on Christs’ death (Heb 13:12), wrought by the HS (1 Pet 1:2, 1 Cor 6:11; cf Gal 3:27), in response to salvational faith (Acts 26:18).

It belongs to every saved person, regardless of his or her condition of daily life (1 Cor 6:11).

Being perfect and complete for every gospel believer, positional sanctification will continue forever (Heb 10:10).

Practical sanctification concerns the spiritual condition of the believer’s everyday life (1 Pet 1:5). God is holy, and He wants His people to increasingly express holiness (moral perfection, or sinlessness) in their daily lives (Mt 5:48; 1 Jn 2;1). The believer expresses that holiness when he separates himself from that which is morally unlike God (Col 3:8; 2 Cor 6:14-7:1), when he yields himself to Christ (Rom 6:11-13), and do His will (Eph 6:6; Rom 6:19-22; 12:1-2).

Practical sanctification takes place throughout the gospel believer’s lifetime; he never reaches the place, in this life, where he has no further need of greater holiness and separation from sin.

Final sanctification is experienced when the Lord returns for His Church. The believer’s body will then be delivered from inherent corruption and will be made like the Lord’s (Php 3:20-21). At that time, the believer will be brought into complete conformity to His character and humanity
(1 Jn 3:2). From then on, the believer shall be as holy in his condition as he is in his position
(1 Cor 1:8; Eph 1:4; 5:26-27; 1 Thess 5:23; Jude 24).

Sorry, but you are playing scriptural word games. You are either in a state of sanctification or you are not. It is as simple as that. Scripture never says positional vs. practical.

 

[sandusky]

Sorry, but you are playing scriptural word games. You are either in a state of sanctification or you are not. It is as simple as that. Scripture never says positional vs. practical.

You’ve not answered my question, Pax.

The point you want to make is that justification and sanctification are not divided, and yet, none of the verses you post mention justification; why is that?

 

[guanophore]

Positional sanctification concerns the believer’s having been set apart to God in Christ (1 Cor 1:2). It is related to our position, or standing in the Lord (1:30; 6:11).

It occurs at salvation, resulting in the believer’s permanent state of sanctification (1 Cor 6:11), with Christ as his sanctification (1 Cor 1:30).

It’s an instaneous work of the Father (Eph 2:10), based on Christs’ death (Heb 13:12), wrought by the HS (1 Pet 1:2, 1 Cor 6:11; cf Gal 3:27), in response to salvational faith (Acts 26:18).

It belongs to every saved person, regardless of his or her condition of daily life (1 Cor 6:11).

Being perfect and complete for every gospel believer, positional sanctification will continue forever (Heb 10:10).

I think your are missing something in this verse:

Heb 10:10
" And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

It is Jesus body that was offered once for all. This is no guarantee that those who have been cleansed will remain clean.

“For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.” 2 Peter 1:8-9

Forgetting that one was cleansed is one of the conditions that precipitates a fall from grace.

Practical sanctification concerns the spiritual condition of the believer’s everyday life (1 Pet 1:5). God is holy, and He wants His people to increasingly express holiness (moral perfection, or sinlessness) in their daily lives (Mt 5:48; 1 Jn 2;1). The belever expresses that holiness when he separates himself from that which is morally unlike God (Col 3:8; 2 Cor 6:14-7:1), when he yields himself to Christ (Rom 6:11-13), and do His will (Eph 6:6; Rom 6:19-22; 12:1-2).

This is very Catholic of you to say.

It is possible, though I agree, not common. For instance, Enoch walked with God, and was taken up to heaven. Since we know that nothing unclean can enter heaven, we must surmise that Enoch was perfected in holiness. The same is true for Elijah.

Final sanctification[/I]

is experienced when the Lord returns for His Church. The believer’s body will then be delivered from inherent corruption and will be made like the Lord’s (Php 3:20-21). At that time, the believer will be brought into complete conformity to His character and humanity
(1 Jn 3:2). From then on, the believer shall be as holy in his condition as he is in his position
(1 Cor 1:8; Eph 1:4; 5:26-27; 1 Thess 5:23; Jude 24).

In this last part I do see OSAS. Those who are thus sanctified will be so forever.