Faith Alone

[Sean_Boyle]

Really? “Eastern Orthodox” or “Latin?” Both. and six more true Church traditions.

As am I. I’m a member of Christ’s church. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into it. Yes you are a member to the Church thru your baptism. Christianity comes to you by way of the Chruch. And just what “certain aspects” of theirs do you suppose I reject? You tell me. What is the Catholic Church teaching falsely in your opinion? Those are the things that you reject of the apostles. I don’t know your believe system, I’m just trying to learn as much about Christ’s Church as I can as should everyone should.

I certainly don’t reject salvation by grace, through faith, not as a result of works. Do you? "Nor do I. I do reject the context and traditions which you read into scripture.

 

[guanophore]

No. Faith is not a work according to God: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works.” If faith was a “work” that statement would be at odds with itself. But it’s you who are wrong, not Paul.

I agree with you that the verse would make no sense, but only in the manner by which you interpret it’s meaning, and not what Paul is actually saying. Faith is a work. Jesus tells the people repeatedly “your faith has saved you”. In each and every case, the person to whom He was speaking DID something. Faith is a characteristic that belongs to the human being. A human being must make an act of the human will that applies one’s faith so that grace can flow through it. In this passage, Paul is speaking of “works of the Law” and he is referring to the Levitical law. Rituals, in and of themselves, cannot save. However, we must participate in the act of salvation by making a choice to place our faith in Christ.

A humble faith is still faith, hence, still alone; “…not as a result of works, that no one should boast.” A humble faith boasts only in the Lord:1 Cor. 1:30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.

I agree with you about the characteristics of saving faith. Saving faith is humble, and it is a faith that works (is active). However, nowhere does scripture state that our faith is alone. On the contrary, it is constantly found alongside of works, specifically those that God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. To separate the two is to skew the gospel message.

Which corresponds to the second half of 2 Cor. 5:21:

"*…that **we might ***become the righteousness of God in Him" (i.e., Christ resurrected).That’s “justification,” I am forever forgiven because of the crucified Christ, I am presently and forever justified in the resurrected Christ.
​

I am relieved to hear that you do not believe you are saved by an empty cross, because that is sure how it came across. Notice the passage you cite says “that we might”, not that we will. The notion of all sins of the future being forgiven and a person that goes on sinning being justified in the sight of God are foreign to Apostolic Teaching. This concept is a very modern invention.

My sins having been imputed to Him, His righteousness imputed to me. I died with Him; I now, and forever, live with Him.Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."These revealed truths speak to faith. They’re not experiential, nonetheless, they’re actual.When it comes to presenting the “doctrines of grace,” pertaining to the cross of Christ, no other N.T. writer has as much content in his writings than Paul. In that respect, yes, his writings are, by default, more important. But ALL are God-breathed.

At least you are honest and admit that you are a Paulist. This represents more integrity than most Reformists demonstrate. The Apostles taught us to take all the of the scripture together, and that is why Catholics do not consider certain writings “by default, more important”. It is not proper to select out certain portions to develop doctrine, and ignore other passages that are relevant.

Peter warned that it’s the untaught and unstable distort Paul’s writings.

I agree. And I would say that most children of the Reformation fit that description, through no fault of their own. They have been taught wrongly from the beginning.​

 

[guanophore]

It’s not my work. I don’t bury myself.

RIGHT! God is working in you to will and to do His good pleasure. This is the difference between works for the flesh/law and sacred works. However, it is still something that YOU DO. THe HS doesn’t come and sweep you up as He did Phillip and transate you into the baptismal font. You choose to get in. You choose to participate in an act of faith.

It’s the saved who confess Christ with their mouths and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead.

Rom 10:9-10 “…that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

They believe and confess what God accomplished for them through the substitutionary death and bodily resurrection of Christ. Not simply that it occurred in history.
​

Yes, it is something that people of faith DO. It is an act. It is faith in action, faith working. It is not a work of the flesh/law, but one of the works of righteousness that God has prepared before hand, that we should walk in them. You see that it is not separated from saving faith, as you seem to be asserting. It is clear that the saved person participates and cooperates with the saving grace.

You need to keep Paul in context.

I agree! Since Paul was a Catholic, writing for Catholics, let’s keep him in context. Let’s try understanding Paul along with the rest of the NT, where it clearly states “your faith has saved you”.​

 

[guanophore]

The point is, guanophore, you have no more than anyone else, you must rely on the Scriptures. Nor did the early church writers - even they had to quote from the Scriptures.

This is not true. Members of the Apostolic Succession have a great deal more than those who have rejected it. Of course we rely on the Scriptures. We were taught never to separate them from the Sacred Tradition from whence they were produced. The ECF were pleased to quote from the scriptures, and never stated that Sacred Tradition “dissappeared” once they were penned.

Then you agree with me that your so-called “sacred works” don’t save you. Those works Paul refers to in verse 10 are prepared for those who are now “created in Christ Jesus.” Those described in verses 8 and 9 as having been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works.Heb. 4:10 is about the believer entering "His rest."Heb 4:10 "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Catholics do not separate acts of faith from the saving grace that produces them. This separating spirit is part of the Reformation, and not part of Apostolic Teaching. It is part of a “divide and conquer” method. Catholics also do not assume that we have already attained, and consider that we do not enter into the final rest (cessation from work) in this lifetime.

"It’s so simple only unbelief denies it.The point is, guanophore, what was left for subsequent generations were the God-breathed Scriptures. As I said, even the early church writers quoted from them. NONE quoted directly from an Apostle.Knock, knock. Hello??? The early church writers could only quote SCRIPTURE. None quoted the Apostles outside of Scripture. What was preserved for subsequent generations was HOLY WRIT.

Indeed, the Scriptures are an essential part of Catholic faith and Teaching. They are not alone, however, and come with the Teaching of the Apostles on how they are to be understood.

But you veer off from the ancient gospel message by incorporating “good works” as contributing to one’s salvation. The Scriptures are VERY clear:"For by grace you have been saved…the gift of God, not as a result of works

Try looking at the Gk. It is very clear that these are works of the law, not sacred works. The passage is clear that saving faith is not separated from walking in a manner of life befit of the salvation produced within that life. What is the need to separate how God works in you to will and to do His good pleasure from your decision to walk in it? It just does not make sense. God did not save you just to save you, He did so in order to work His righteousness in your life. It is not that Catholics “contribute” this to the concept of salvation. It is that the Reformers tried to subtract it! Just like some of the books of the Bible, the sign of the cross, the Sacraments, and other things that just seemed too “Catholic”.

"You appeal to your “tradition,” but you tradition conflicts with God-breathed Scripture.Peter says to “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” But nowhere do the Scriptures tell us to “become more righteous day by day.”

No, there are no contradictions between the Sacred Writings and the Sacred Teachings of the Apostles. If it seems that way to you, it is so because you don’t understand one or the other, or both. It is in beholding the glory of the Lord that we are being changed day by day: " And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18

Do you imagine that we can be changed into His likeness without becoming, in actuality, righteous?

The true believer has been imputed divine righteousness, the very righteousness of Christ (2 Pet. 5:21). This is perfect righteousness. It can neither increase nor decrease.

You are trying to apply a legal definition to a characterological state, and it is not working. Yes, we are declared righteous at baptism. All of our sins are washed away. But, we still have in us the tendency to sin, and must be, in actuality, transformed into the righteousness of God in which we have been declared. This requires a process of sanctification, whereby we are day by day moving from one degree of glory to another. If we persist until the end, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is.

Legally, a person can be acquitted of a crime, or have charges dismissed, as happens to us in baptism. However, that person (and believe me, as one who works with criminals daily I know) that same justified person can go out and commit the same (or worse) crime. He is not charged again with the crime that was dismissed, but his original acquittal is of no benefit to him,because he has taken himself back to the same state (guilt).

The believer does abide in faith, hope and love, but he is saved only by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Yes. Saving grace expresses itself in faith, hope, and love. They are not separated, but abide together.

 

[mikeledes]

No. Faith is not a work according to God: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works.” If faith was a “work” that statement would be at odds with itself.

Tell that to a Calvinist.

God Bless,
Nichael

 

[Good_Fella]

I think you misunderstand. Work on my part will NEVER provide assurance of salvation for me. Only a vacant cross and an empty tomb.

This is what Paul has to say about your “vacant cross” and “empty tomb”:

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now ‘the deeds of the flesh’ are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry…jealousy, disputes, outbursts of anger…envyings, drunkenness, carousings, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who ‘practice’ such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the ‘fruit’ of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control; against such things there is no Law. NOW THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST JESUS HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH with its passions and desires. {Galatians 5, 15-26}

Paul is exhorting us to ‘walk’ by the Spirit and to ‘renounce’ the desires of the flesh. This is how ‘we’ crucify the flesh and free ourselves by the help of God’s grace to live in the freedom of love of God and neighbour, which is essential to our justification and salvation. We must choose to become righteous as our Lord would have us be righteous before God in order to be saved. We are not saved by merely being declared righteous, as if we were incapable of genuinely being loving, peaceful, faithful, gentle, patient, kind, good, and temperate. A radical transformation of our internal disposition is necessary for our heavenly reward to be realized. As Christians, we are expected by our Lord to undergo a genuine change of heart, through the help of God’s grace, and reject the vices of our wounded sinful nature by striving to become truly virtuous as exemplified by Jesus. The Spirit is the agent of this freedom from the flesh in our lives, and the manifestation of this freedom of love is a life that is characterized by the fruits of the Spirit. Once the Law has led us to Christ, the Spirit replaces and fulfills the Law. The Spirit permeates both what we are and what we do. Unless we choose to crucify the flesh and die to our passionate sinful nature, we cannot hope to be saved by Christ. This means, that in order to be saved, we must perform good works out of a genuine love of God and neighbour in imitation of Christ, sacrificing our misplaced selfish desires. Good works [ergois agathois] must proceed from the heart in order to be truly good and pleasing to God.

And you, who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, IN ORDER TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND BLAMELESS AND IRREPROACHABLE BEFORE HIM, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, STABLE AND STEADFAST, NOT SHIFTING FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL WHICH YOU HEARD…Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, AND IN MY FLESH I COMPLETE WHAT IS LACKING IN CHRIST’S AFFLICTIONS for the sake of his body, that is the Church.
{Colossians 1, 21-24}

Paul makes it absolutely clear that the grounds of righteousness, that makes us blameless and irreproachable before God, is not the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account. Christ will present us as righteous provided that we continue to persevere to the end. Our salvation is conditional and not guaranteed in this life. We are not assuredly saved upon initially professing our faith in Christ. In verse 24, Paul tells us that Christ’s suffering is not enough. Although it is efficacious, the principal cause of our salvation, what we do for Christ out of love has salvific value as the instrumental or secondary cause of our salvation. In our acts of self-sacrifice, and in our suffering which we offer to Christ, we complete or bring to fruition the salvation offered us through the merits of Christ’s Passion. Thus what we do for Christ and others out of love can itself be salvifically efficacious. Both the principal cause of our justification (faith) and its instrumental cause (good works) are necessary for our salvation. If this were not the case, Paul would have no reason to exhort us to remain steadfast in hope once we have accepted the Gospel. Obviously Paul understood that we have a role to play in our salvation. The Protestant concept ‘sola Christu’ is unbiblical and it was not espoused by the Church Fathers.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. {Romans 6, 5-8}

“For He was made man that we might be made God.”
St. Ambrose (A.D. 318)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Philthy]

moondweller:

applies only to those who believe. Do all men on this planet believe? Elementary, my dear Watson.

Very good, my friend. Now, how do we distinguish a belief consonant with salvation faith and all other belief? This remains the question which you seem to avoid at all costs.

No. You fail to understand the quote. The quote simply divides the two respectively. We are saved by faith alone, but what that faith produces in works, does not save us. Again, very elementary.

No, that isnt quite what the quote said - you are now twisting it to fit your theology. The quote said that salvation faith is never alone: it is always accompanied by charitable works. There was never a mention of a division of what accomplishes what. The simple fact of the statement is that salvation faith is never faith “alone” it is always accompanied by works. Now, you may argue - against James IMHO - that those works do not save us, but what you continue to fail to grasp is that whether or not they do, the alleged “assurance” of salvation cannot exist apart from the knowledge that those works exist in our lives.

A man can know he has saving faith not by what works it may produce, but in Whom he has put his faith,

Please tell us all what it means to “put your faith into” someone or something, won’t you? Is it an intellectual process? Which areas of your life does it encompass and which areas of one’s life are exclude from this placement of faith? Does it have any relationship to sin? The commandments? How, exactly, do you determine that you have “placed” your faith into Christ rather than merely intellectually acknowledge who He is. And please, stop dancing.

The true believer concurs with Paul in that he knows in whom he has believed (2 Tim. 1:12).

I dont doubt that Paul knew in whom he believed, but that has no relevance to the topic.

Works are never an assurance of salvation faith (Matt. 7:21-23).

I never said works alone are an assurance of salvation faith. I say that faith apart from works is dead, just as the body without a spirit is dead.

Men are easily self-deceived. For this reason salvation must be based totally on the work of Another. And only He was qualified to perform the work necessary.

Agreed. It is based upon the finished work of Christ. That does not preclude some action on our part otherwise everyone would be saved.

Catholics believe that works contribute to their salvation yet, ironically, no Catholic can know for certain that he is saved or has eternal life.

You dont really understand Catholicism or you wouldnt make such claims.

That would not be the case if Catholics would look to Christ alone. All doubt would diminish and they would enter His rest./

Well, I’d love to discuss the absurdity of these claims, but for now I’d like to know how the believer has assurance that he has “placed” his faith in Christ; and I’d also like to know how doing so can fail to bear the fruit of good works. Until you can produce a cogent response to this simple question you are simply a clanging cymbal.

 

[Good_Fella]

In that passage Christ separated them according to who/what they were: sheep vs. goats / believers vs. unbelievers. They weren’t separated by what they did. What they did was based on who/what they were. :tiphat:

Is that so? :coffeeread:

The sheep and the goats are distinguished on the basis of their deeds or misdeeds. Who and what they are is based on what they did or failed to do. And if what they did or failed to do determines who they are, the saved or the damned, then obviously Christ’s righteousness isn’t imputed to their account, and nor are they saved by Christ alone. They must participate in their salvation by completing “what is lacking in Christ’s afflicitions” in order to become righteous before God and inherit the kingdom of heaven. Those who “hunger for righteousness” will be satisfied (Mt 5, 6). Jesus never says anything about the faithful being “declared righteous” to be justified. Our Lord does not cover up our sins externally by imputing his righteousness to our account. A change of heart is necessary, if we hope to be saved. Our transformed inner-self is relfected or expressed by our deeds, for which we shall be judged. Jesus will repay every man for what he has done, not for who or what he is (Mt 16, 27). Jesus does not reward us for being saved. He saves us by rewarding us. Good works are a cause of salvation - not its effect or demonstration.

“I, the Lord, have spoken: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not pass by, nor spare, nor be pacified; I will judge you according to your ways, and according to your doings, says the Lord.” {Ezekiel 24, 14}

“He from the essence of the Father, nor is the Son again Son according to essence, but in consequence of virtue, as we who are called sons by grace.”
St. Athanasius (A.D. 351)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Pax]

…
…

Catholics believe that works contribute to their salvation yet, ironically, no Catholic can know for certain that he is saved or has eternal life. That would not be the case if Catholics would look to Christ alone. All doubt would diminish and they would enter His rest.

Catholics believe scripture.

Catholics believe that we are saved by Jesus redemptive work on the cross.[Titus 3:5]

Catholics believe that “faith is completed by works” per James 2:22.

Catholics believe that we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared beforehand(i.e. prior to our justification) that we should walk in them” per Eph 2:10.

Catholics believe that we are saved by grace [Eph 2:5]

Catholics believe that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.”[Gal 5:6]

Catholics believe that “that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”[James 2:24]

Catholics believe that just “…as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”[James 2:26]

Now all of these things are straight out of scripture and are absolutely congruent with Catholic teaching.

Please tell me…do you believe these things?

Please tell me…what is it about these things that are not Christ centered? Afterall, Catholics believe that all of these things are by way of God’s grace and the merits of Jesus Christ redemptive work in his passion, death, and resurrection.

Catholics have no doubts, but we do not, however, engage in false assurances either. The apostle Paul says this about himself:

1 Cor 4:4-5
“I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.”

Catholics share Paul’s view. We have confidence and a moral assurance of salvation, but we do not have a metaphysical or absolute assurance of salvation. Neither should you.

 

[moondweller]

I agree with you that the verse would make no sense, but only in the manner by which you interpret it’s meaning, and not what Paul is actually saying.

I don’t think Paul could get any clearer than “not as a result of works.” It’s not that Paul is being misunderstood here, guan, but there are those who refuse to believe his teaching.

Faith is a work. Jesus tells the people repeatedly “your faith has saved you”.

Paul says “by grace through faith…not as a result of works;” Jesus says “Your faith has saved you,” yet you continue to insist on works, contending even that faith itself is a work.

In each and every case, the person to whom He was speaking DID something. Faith is a characteristic that belongs to the human being. A human being must make an act of the human will that applies one’s faith so that grace can flow through it.

See what I mean? Grace can flow through the act of the human will? What is this theology, guan? Some sort of new age mumbo-jumbo?

In this passage, Paul is speaking of “works of the Law” and he is referring to the Levitical law. Rituals, in and of themselves, cannot save.

No he’s not. The Ephesians were Gentiles and were never under the Law, had nothing to do with the Law of Moses. Nor is there any such thing as the Levitical Law. In Eph. 2:11-12 Paul describes Gentiles as excluded from the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise, but he concludes:Eph 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near (how?) by the blood of Christ."By works, guan? By doing something to make grace flow (whatever that means). No, but by the blood of Christ.Eph 3:11-12 "{This was} in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him."Not in accordance with our works, guan, but in Christ Jesus, in whom believers (even Gentile believers like the Ephesians), have boldness and confident access (how?) through faith in Him.

I agree with you about the characteristics of saving faith. Saving faith is humble, and it is a faith that works (is active).

No. The faith through which God Himself saves by grace (unmerited favor) must be inactive passive) in respect to salvation. It believes God concerning the redemptive work of His Son alone. The good works Paul mentions are prepared for those who have believed and are now “created in Christ Jesus” for them.

However, nowhere does scripture state that our faith is alone.

Eph. 2:8-9; cf. Rom. 11:6.

On the contrary, it is constantly found alongside of works, specifically those that God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. To separate the two is to skew the gospel message.

To the contrary, to mingle the two is apostasy and presents a “different gospel” other than grace. As Paul states it: “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

I am relieved to hear that you do not believe you are saved by an empty cross, because that is sure how it came across.

Then you do have a reading comprehension problem. Here’s what I said:

I think you misunderstand. Work on my part will NEVER provide assurance of salvation for me. Only a vacant cross and an empty tomb. My assurance rests in an historical event recorded in God-breathed Scriptures.

How do you get saved by an empty cross out of that?

Notice the passage you cite says “that we might”, not that we will.

You’re referring to 2 Cor. 5:21. “Might” means that something is done with a certain goal in mind. For instance, “I unlocked the door that I might explore the interior.” In 2 Cor. 5:21 Paul essentially states that our sins were imputed to Christ with the goal in mind that the believer would then become “the righteousness of God in Him.” Our sins imputed to Christ (on the cross), the resurrected Christ’s righteousness imputed to the believer.

The notion of all sins of the future being forgiven and a person that goes on sinning being justified in the sight of God are foreign to Apostolic Teaching.

What’s a foreign concept to Apostolic teaching, guan, is the notion that justification is based on the lack of, and the avoidance of, sin. The ancient Apostolic teaching is that a man is justified (1) as a gift, (2) by His grace, (3) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). The Apostolic teaching on justification is summed up in these words:“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justified the ungodly, his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).What is foreign to the ancient, Apostolic teaching is the doctrine of “infused” righteousness upon the act of ritual baptism. liking it to putting new wine into old wine skins. Which Christ Himself depicted inevitable ruin (Matt. 9:17; Mk. 2:22; Lk. 5:37-38; cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10). That’s why there can be no assurance of salvation with that kind of theology.

At least you are honest and admit that you are a Paulist.

Can you show me where I called myself by such a name? I merely said the doctrines of grace are found primarily in Paul’s Epistles. By default they draw greater importance.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I don’t think Paul could get any clearer than “not as a result of works.” It’s not that Paul is being misunderstood here, guan, but there are those who refuse to believe his teaching.Paul says “by grace through faith…not as a result of works;” Jesus says “Your faith has saved you,” yet you continue to insist on works, contending even that faith itself is a work.See what I mean? Grace can flow through the act of the human will? What is this theology, guan? Some sort of new age mumbo-jumbo?No he’s not. The Ephesians were Gentiles and were never under the Law, had nothing to do with the Law of Moses. Nor is there any such thing as the Levitical Law. In Eph. 2:11-12 Paul describes Gentiles as excluded from the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise, but he concludes:Eph 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near (how?) by the blood of Christ."By works, guan? By doing something to make grace flow (whatever that means). No, but by the blood of Christ.Eph 3:11-12 "{This was} in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him."Not in accordance with our works, guan, but in Christ Jesus, in whom believers (even Gentile believers like the Ephesians), have boldness and confident access (how?) through faith in Him.No. The faith through which God Himself saves by grace (unmerited favor) must be inactive passive) in respect to salvation. It believes God concerning the redemptive work of His Son alone. The good works Paul mentions are prepared for those who have believed and are now “created in Christ Jesus” for them.Eph. 2:8-9; cf. Rom. 11:6.To the contrary, to mingle the two is apostasy and presents a “different gospel” other than grace. As Paul states it: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Then you do have a reading comprehension problem. Here’s what I said:How do you get saved by an empty cross out of that?You’re referring to 2 Cor. 5:21. “Might” means that something is done with a certain goal in mind. For instance, “I unlocked the door that I might explore the interior.” In 2 Cor. 5:21 Paul essentially states that our sins were imputed to Christ with the goal in mind that the believer would then become “the righteousness of God in Him.” Our sins imputed to Christ (on the cross), the resurrected Christ’s righteousness imputed to the believer. What’s a foreign concept to Apostolic teaching, guan, is the notion that justification is based on the lack of, and the avoidance of, sin. The ancient Apostolic teaching is that a man is justified (1) as a gift, (2) by His grace, (3) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). The Apostolic teaching on justification is summed up in these words:“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justified the ungodly, his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).What is foreign to the ancient, Apostolic teaching is the doctrine of “infused” righteousness upon the act of ritual baptism. liking it to putting new wine into old wine skins. Which Christ Himself depicted inevitable ruin (Matt. 9:17; Mk. 2:22; Lk. 5:37-38; cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10). That’s why there can be no assurance of salvation with that kind of theology.Can you show me where I called myself by such a name? I merely said the doctrines of grace are found primarily in Paul’s Epistles. By default they draw greater importance.

So about this Ephesians 2:8-9

Usually, those who use this verse (especially Protestants) like to say the works Paul is speaking of are good works. If that were true, it would in no way conflict with Catholic theology. Note that the passage speaks of salvation as a past event - “you have been saved.” This passage thus refers to the salvation one received at the beginning of the Christian life.

Paul speaks of salvation as past, present, and future events. The kind of salvation he is discussing in Ephesians 2:8-9 is initial salvation (salvation as a past event).

Ephesians 2:8-9 does the contradict the Catholic way of thinking, even if the “works” Paul mentions are good works. This is because the Catholic Church does not teach we receive initial justification by good works. We do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified; as the Council of Trent says, "we are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification.

We as Christians are the result of God’s work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works, for God intended us ahead of time for us to do them.

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Ephesians 2:6-10

6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[moondweller]

RIGHT! God is working in you to will and to do His good pleasure

True. But He has, upon faith in Christ, GIFTED me salvation, justification and eternal life (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 3:24; 6:23).

This is the difference between works for the flesh/law and sacred works.

Try as you will, you’ll never get passed, nor change, the Apostolic teaching of “…not as a result of works” You try to qualify works by assigning some to be “sacred,” but the Apostolic principle still stands in the sacred writings: Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

I agree! Since Paul was a Catholic, writing for Catholics, let’s keep him in context. Let’s try understanding Paul along with the rest of the NT, where it clearly states “your faith has saved you”.

Paul was an Apostle, period. And his teachings remain consistent with that of Christ’s: “Your FAITH has saved you.”

Catholics do not separate acts of faith from the saving grace that produces them.

Which is why the Catholic “gospel” differs from that of the Apostles: “…not as a result of works.”

This separating spirit is part of the Reformation, and not part of Apostolic Teaching.

One might get away with this statement if we didn’t have the Scriptures. But God is wiser than men.

Catholics also do not assume that we have already attained, and consider that we do not enter into the final rest (cessation from work) in this lifetime

Yes. Meritorious works. This assumption is in compliance with your “works gospel” and the erroneous idea, with its disastrous result, that one can put new wine into old wine skins.

Indeed, the Scriptures are an essential part of Catholic faith and Teaching. They are not alone, however, and come with the Teaching of the Apostles on how they are to be understood.

Can you show me this official, Apostolic commentary on all the Scriptures? Is this something hidden in a vault in the Vatican? Did all twelve Apostles contribute to this writing or just some? Not even your magisterium has provided you with official commentary on all the Scriptures. But then they shouldn’t have to if this Apostolic Commentary on the Scriptures actually exists.

Try looking at the Gk. It is very clear that these are works of the law, not sacred works.

Show me. Where in the Greek does it say “For by faith through sacred works are you saved”?

The Greek in my Bible specifically states: “ouk ex umôn” (not of works) “theou to dôron” (gift of God). Paul states it unequivocally.

God did not save you just to save you, He did so in order to work His righteousness in your life.

That’s again your “new wine in old wine skins” doctrine. He saved me by grace, through faith, giftwise, for Christ’s sake and to His own glory.Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.We who belong to Him (His own possession) through Christ’s redemptive work are to live a godly manner of life, zealous for good works, but we are neither saved by our godly manner of life nor by our zeal for good works, but through faith in Christ alone.

It is not that Catholics “contribute” this to the concept of salvation.

The problem is that Catholics believe they contribute to salvation through their works. Thereby nullifying “promise” which is linked to faith.

It is that the Reformers tried to subtract it!

Works? Of course! To the exaltation of Christ and the purity of the ancient, Apostolic message.

Do you imagine that we can be changed into His likeness without becoming, in actuality, righteous?

2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10. The confomity of our yet unredeemed bodies follow.

You are trying to apply a legal definition to a characterological state, and it is not working.

I am believing what God has revealed, which is that my sins were imputed to Christ and the righteousness of God has been imputed to me. That I am now “…found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (a principle of works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of FAITH” (Phil. 3:9).

Yes, we are declared righteous at baptism.

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

All of our sins are washed away.

Righteousness is reckoned (credited) based on faith.

But, we still have in us the tendency to sin, and must be, in actuality, transformed into the righteousness of God in which we have been declared. This requires a process of sanctification, whereby we are day by day moving from one degree of glory to another. If we persist until the end, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is.

You cannot be transformed, experientially, into “the righteousness of God” while in these yet unredeemed bodies. Experiential sanctification is not justification.

 

[moondweller]

Our salvation is conditional and not guaranteed in this life. We are not assuredly saved upon initially professing our faith in Christ.

Yes. According to Catholic soteriology, which is a salvation based on works. But Biblical soteriology explicitly states that salvation is “not as a result of works.” Biblical salvation is unconditional because Christ’s redemptive work is its guarantee.

 

[moondweller]

Very good, my friend. Now, how do we distinguish a belief consonant with salvation faith and all other belief?

I answered you already. Its content. It’s Who one has believed in and what He accomplished on your behalf. If you don’t believe what He said He did, then it’s not salvation faith. If you still believe you must do in order to become, then you do not have true faith.

Now, you may argue - against James IMHO - that those works do not save us, but what you continue to fail to grasp is that whether or not they do, the alleged “assurance” of salvation cannot exist apart from the knowledge that those works exist in our lives.

I still argue, as does Scripture, that the assurance of salvation is based on the historical, finished work of Another: The cross is vacant, the tomb is empty (Rom. 4:25 - 5:2).

How, exactly, do you determine that you have “placed” your faith into Christ rather than merely intellectually acknowledge who He is.

When one believes what is said concerning Him. When one believes He did what is said He did. When one humbly admits that he has nothing to offer, but only to receive that which was accomplished for him. That’s faith in Christ. As long a you think you can offer something, you haven’t got it. It’s quite simple. That’s no dance.

I dont doubt that Paul knew in whom he believed, but that has no relevance to the topic.

It’s totally relevant!! Jesus made Himself the object of salvation faith. True believers, like Paul, know in whom they’ve believed.

I never said works alone are an assurance of salvation faith

Of course not. Catholicism offers no assurance of salvation. “Assurance” is not a part of its soteriology. Why that’s the case has been discussed often.

Agreed. It is based upon the finished work of Christ. That does not preclude some action on our part otherwise everyone would be saved.

Poor, unbiblical logic. It doesn’t say, “For by grace everyone is saved.” But, “For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…” It precludes all who have not believed. And those who have not believed would include those who add works to their soteriology.

moondweller:

Catholics believe that works contribute to their salvation yet, ironically, no Catholic can know for certain that he is saved or has eternal life.

Philthy:

You dont really understand Catholicism or you wouldnt make such claims.

What part am I not understanding? The works part? The uncertainty of salvation? The uncertainty of “eternal” life (an oxymoron)?

Well, I’d love to discuss the absurdity of these claims, but for now I’d like to know how the believer has assurance that he has “placed” his faith in Christ; and I’d also like to know how doing so can fail to bear the fruit of good works. Until you can produce a cogent response to this simple question you are simply a clanging cymbal.

I explained above how you can know if you’ve truly put your faith in Christ. True faith bears fruit by the fact of regeneration and a new creation.

Upon belief the believer is regenerated by the Holy Spirit that he might understand the things of God (1 Cor. 1:10-16), and “created in Christ Jesus” FOR good works (Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor. 5:17). But the believer in no way, shape, or form is saved BY those works, but rather “by grace, through faith” in Christ alone.

 

[moondweller]

Catholics believe scripture.

Not necessarily.

Catholics believe that we are saved by Jesus redemptive work on the cross.[Titus 3:5]

But not exclusively.

Catholics believe that “faith is completed by works” per James 2:22.

Yes. And they believe works complete their salvation.

Catholics believe that we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared beforehand(i.e. prior to our justification) that we should walk in them” per Eph 2:10.

You mean that you should walk in them FOR completing your salvation. Hence, you do not believe you are yet “fully” saved nor yet “fully” created in Christ Jesus. Because you do not believe the previous two verses which state “For by grace you have been saved through faith…a gift of God…not as a result of works.”

Catholics believe that we are saved by grace [Eph 2:5]

But not apart from works, hence grace is not grace (Rom. 11:6).

Catholics believe that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.”[Gal 5:6]

Yes, God will save you based on faith plus love.

Catholics believe that “that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”[James 2:24]

I know. This one verse in James is the foundation of Catholic soteriology.

Catholics believe that just “…as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”[James 2:26]

Yes. One cannot overtly demonstrate (“show me your faith” vss. 17-18) his faith to others without works. Nevertheless, God saves by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9; Jn. 3:14-18).

Please tell me…do you believe these things?

I believe they’re, as you say, “all out of Scripture.” But I do not believe the context in which you present them.

Catholics share Paul’s view. We have confidence and a moral assurance of salvation, but we do not have a metaphysical or absolute assurance of salvation. Neither should you.

That’s because you have not put your faith in Christ alone, His redemptive work alone, or the surpassing greatness of God’s power toward us who believe, the hope of His calling, the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, which are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly (Eph. 1:19-20).

If you understood the power of God through Christ then you too would have absolute assurance of salvation. As John said, 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life".So you see, Pax, God desires that all who truly believe have absolute assurance. If one does not, there’s something drastically wrong with their faith. Most likely it’s focused on their own works, rather than exclusively on Christ’s (which floods the heart with assurance).

 

[Pax]

You fail to appreciate what is given to you…you seem to prefer to twist it into something that it is not. Why is that?

 

[Philthy]

I answered you already. Its content. It’s Who one has believed in and what He accomplished on your behalf. If you don’t believe what He said He did, then it’s not salvation faith.

I believe in Who he is and what He accomplished on my behalf. I believe what He said He did. I simply believe some of what He said differently than you do. So how do we distinguish between who has salvation faith and who does not? You continue to run in circles.

If you still believe you must do in order to become, then you do not have true faith.

But “faith without works is dead” and does not justify us. Works are something I must do. Dead faith is not salvation faith. If my faith does not have works it is a dead faith. Based on Scripture alone, you must admit - at the very least - that there can be honest disagreement over this. This destroys your entire argument.
In addition, faith is - technically - a work that we do (John 6:29)

I still argue, as does Scripture, that the assurance of salvation is based on the historical, finished work of Another: The cross is vacant, the tomb is empty (Rom. 4:25 - 5:2).When one believes what is said concerning Him. When one believes He did what is said He did. When one humbly admits that he has nothing to offer, but only to receive that which was accomplished for him. That’s faith in Christ.

It makes much more biblical sense to believe that we must both recognize our complete dependence on God and acknowledge that He has empowered us to accomplish his will by His Grace. We must stand up to sin in our lives. He has freed us from sin and will provide the grace we need to act accordingly.(1Cor10:13)
If this were not true, then why is there so much NT material - both in the gospels and epistles regarding Christian conduct? How is it better - if faith alone were true - that such admonitions remain in Scripture?

As long a you think you can offer something, you haven’t got it. It’s quite simple.

“I urge you brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God.” Anyone with an open mind can see that such verses destroy your “simple” arguments. I can offer something holy to God when - by His grace - I deny myself and love Him and neighbor instead. It is holy in his sight. I can also choose to love myself instead - that is unholy in his sight.

It doesn’t say, “For by grace everyone is saved.” But, “For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…” It precludes all who have not believed. And those who have not believed would include those who add works to their soteriology.

Uhhh, I dont remember that part of the verse! I could just as easily have added that “And those who have not believed would include those who deny works in their soteriology” and judged you as the “non-believer”. All you are doing is saying,“Believe what I believe the bible means and you will have salvation faith” That’s no assurance in anything other than you. You just dont realize it

But the believer in no way, shape, or form is saved BY those works, but rather “by grace, through faith” in Christ alone.

Is a man condemned for evil works? Is failing to follow in Christ’s footsteps an evil work? Is there a degree to which one can oppose God through his choice of actions?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

In addition, faith is - technically - a work that we do (John 6:29)

“I urge you brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God.” Anyone with an open mind can see that such verses destroy your “simple” arguments. I can offer something holy to God when - by His grace - I deny myself and love Him and neighbor instead. It is holy in his sight. I can also choose to love myself instead - that is unholy in his sight.

Many excellent points here. All are backed up by scripture, Apop, I mean moondweller. It has to be difficult for someone to ignore this evidence, especially with all of this scriptural evidence.

Faith is a work. Now according to your argument “a work” can’t save you. Your argument should stop there, to re-evaluate the direction your going in arguing this point. Your in checkmate now.

The topic of this thread is “faith alone”. What is the purpose of the word “alone” now? Is it just a bias against the Church that is maintained out of some since of allegiance to the reformed tradition?

The phase “faith alone” has been proven to be unbiblical here. List the passage with “faith alone” in it used in the context that you believe it should be used for all to see or accept that it is not there. The bible is your sole authority on faith is it not? Why are you adding to the perfect scripture the phase “faith alone” when it’s not there? What is the purpose?

 

[moondweller]

But “faith without works is dead” and does not justify us.

But James does not at all say works save or justify you. You miss his point completely. On the other hand:Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified (how?) as a gift (by what means?) by His grace (how? Works? No!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (the cross);

Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Dead faith is not salvation faith. If my faith does not have works it is a dead faith.

You’re equating works with faith. That’s not what James was expressing. It’s actually a distortion of his words.

In addition, faith is - technically - a work that we do (John 6:29)

They asked Jesus what works they should do that they may work the works of God. Jesus instead told what the “work of God” was. And that was that they BELIEVE in Him whom He sent. IOW, what God required of them was not works but faith in Him.

It makes much more biblical sense to believe that we must both recognize our complete dependence on God and acknowledge that He has empowered us to accomplish his will by His Grace.

God sent the Son into this world to accomplish His will on man’s behalf. And the Son came into this world to do the will of the Father, which was to accomplish the work of redemption, once for all." “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” God doesn’t “empower us” to accomplish His will by grace. But He accomplished His will through the obedient work of Christ - even death on a cross. And that infinitely, perfect work of Christ allows God to save “by grace” (unmerited favor) all who believe in Him.

We must stand up to sin in our lives.

Agreed. But standing up to sin doesn’t save you from the penalty of sin. From this you must be redeemed, and that through precious, sacrificial blood, the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

He has freed us from sin and will provide the grace we need to act accordingly.(1Cor10:13)

Actually Paul says that “he who has died is freed from sin” (Rom. 6:7).

Paul is stating here, in context, the divinely revealed truth that the believer was “crucified with Christ.” Our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross, and as a substitutionary, sin sacrifice, He died “to” (or, “unto”) those sins, once for all" (Rom. 6:10). He was then raised (bodily resurrected) to new life.

In that chapter Paul reveals that the believer also was crucified with Christ (i.e., all who he was in Adam), and he who has died is “freed” (or, acquitted) from sin (Rom. 6:7). As Christ died “to” sin, “once for all,” so did the believer with Him. As Christ was then raised to new life, so the believer was raised to new life with Him. That’s what it means to be “created in Christ Jesus.” That is, the resurrected Christ.

Paul states this positional truth again to the Colossian believers:Col 3:14 "Therefore if (or, since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."It is in this glorious, revealed truth regarding the believer’s new position in the resurrected, glorified Christ that the believer is to walk by faith, and his behavior is to reflect it during his stay on earth:Col 3:5-10 "Therefore consider (reckon) the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience (not the believer now “in Christ”), and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them (in unbelief). But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, {and} abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self (i.e., crucified with Christ) with its {evil} practices, and have put on the new self (raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly) who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him– (a reference to our a new creation “in Christ”; see 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

If this were not true, then why is there so much NT material - both in the gospels and epistles regarding Christian conduct? How is it better - if faith alone were true - that such admonitions remain in Scripture?

(1) Because while in this yet unredeemed body the regenerated believer is to walk in a way that his present condition reflects his now glorious position in the resurrected Christ. (2) The believer is exhorted to walk in a manner that honors his Father:Gal 3:26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."Even the Law of Moses instructed the Israelite to honor his father, how much more the believer his Heavenly Father? And do not fathers instruct their children on good behavior to prepare him for adulthood? A son isn’t on probation and officially becomes a son only if he behaves correctly. He is a son by birth. The believer is a son by (1) rebirth (1 Pet. 1:3; (2) adoption (Rom. 8:15; Eph. 1:5; and (3) a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

 

[Odell]

.Yes, God will save you based on faith plus love.

Hello faith plus love how can faith plus something be a faith that is alone?

And according to moondwellers formula what is faith plus love is that love put to action or is it just the love feeling?

If you understood the power of God through Christ then you too would have absolute assurance of salvation.

If you knew the power of Christ you would know that it does not simply impute you are infused with righteousness