K
Kliska
Guest
I feel this is very well said.
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rcwitness
Guest
I do understand that is the more genuine interpretation of Sola Fide. What communions preach this is what varies.
The typical attack from the Sola Fide camp against Catholics is that Catholics say you need faith PLUS works to be saved. This can have truth or it can be falsely representing the Catholic faith. We are saved without works, yet we are bound to the Spirit whom works through us. First of all, conversion of heart.
In the end, Im not so concerned how “Protestantism” defines anything (though when fellowshipping, I do care) because I am not led, fed or Taught by Protestantism. I try my best to articulate and express the Catholic faith, but what the Catholic faith rejects I will not accept. There seems to be very little if anything at all in some genuine Protestant’s definition of Sola Fide which denies the Catholic faith. But then, that makes it more like the Catholic Teaching of Faith and Works.
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spiderweb
Guest
Honestly I haven’t studied it all that much. Most of my own understanding of it comes from various people and they may not understand it well enough to explain it to me. And it’s also possible that I simply misunderstand what I have read and heard and various faith alone Christian denominations have different understandings of that. That’s why I’m trying to get a better understanding of it from people that can hopefully clarify things for me.
What I laid out in my previous post was my perception of Luther’s position and you quickly disabused me of that. Great, that’s what I want. I’m going to open myself up for that again.
Previously you said
I would agree with all of that, but that is after someone is already a “Christian”. Let’s just take an adult non-believer who then converts and becomes a believer. At what point in their conversion process is the grace necessary to get to heaven given/received? Is it when they first “have faith”? I would have to answer that with “No”.
The initial receiving of grace must be accompanied by a “work” of some sort on our part. Absolutely that work is a response to faith, but without some sort of work in response to the faith, can the person actually receive the grace? As you answered earlier, a person cannot enter heaven without their sins first being forgiven. Can sins be forgiven if first we don’t repent and then ask for the sin to be forgiven? Asking for forgiveness of sins is a good work, moved by faith to be sure, but an act of the will on our part. Thus faith alone for any denomination doesn’t make logical sense to me. I hope you can understand my problem with that.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Spider,
You will get lost in all the different meanings each denomination will give to a doctrine. There is no such thing as a single meaning.
However, in the scope of Catholic/Lutheran - the Faith Alone principle is looked at within the context of Justification.
Here you can read the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION. Keep in mind that not all Lutheran Synods are in agreement.
S
spiderweb
Guest
From the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:
Maybe I just need to let it go…
From the underlined, it seems the joint declaration says “yes, we are justified by faith, but it is applied to us through baptism by the work of the Holy Spirit.” Justification is not complete without baptism, which requires us to do something, namely allow the Holy Spirit to work within us. Thus faith and works, both from God and the individual also responds by faith through works. Not on ones own initiative or works, but by participation in God’s initiative and works. We are not justified until we cooperate with God. So I just don’t get the “Faith Alone”, to my mind this is logically inconsistent. Faith Alone= Faith and Works in union with God, which nullifies the Alone part.
Maybe I just need to let it go…
Ok, let’s be clear about what Lutheranism teaches about Baptism. For that, we always look first to the Augsburg Confession:
Offered. Received. Grace is a free gift from God. It is not something that comes to us through or by our own works or actions. Grace (remission of sin), the beginnings of faith, we receive through the work of the Holy Spirit in Baptism.
On the sacrament of Holy Absolution:
Note this does not say, whenever someone decides to convert. We are converted by the work of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism, along with the other means of grace, word and sacrament, are not works that we perform, but the ways we receive grace.
Forgiveness of sins is part and parcel of grace itself. Grace overcomes sin. Baptism, which is grace, washes away sin.
How does one receive faith? We receive it by grace. For the adult, faith comes by hearing, but hearing His word is, indeed, a means of grace! just as the Spirit moves parents to have their children baptized, so the Spirit moves the adult to saving faith and baptism. But don’t set scripture against itself.
The “great commission” in Matthew 28, He says,
** Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” **
Here He tells us how to make disciples of all nations, and His order is to Baptize followed by teaching.
Of course, but it is also grace that moves the unbeliever to believe.
Jon
K
Koineman
Guest
Glad to hear it. You should read the Book of Concord: bookofconcord.org/. It’s long, but you could select the parts that you most want to learn about and just read those, e.g., the topic we’re discussing now.
Back when I was seriously considering Catholicism, I didn’t consult material written by the opponents of the RCC; instead, I went straight to the source: Trent, the CCC, Catholic books, and even a graduate course on Mariology at a Catholic college. I recommend you do the same regarding this subject.
It’s before they have faith, and the Catholic Church teaches that, too–assuming they adhere to the Council of Orange.Of course, it’s also happening as they have faith and even as they continue in the Christian journey.
I’m not sure. The baptism is God’s work, not ours. We simply receive it by faith.
I’m not sure what you mean by a work being a response to faith, unless you mean the work is a result of faith. If that’s what you meant, I agree: good works result from true faith–necessarily.
Faith alone doesn’t mean that the will is not involved or that asking for forgiveness is not involved. You seem to be repeating the supposition that sola fide rules out good works of all kinds. It doesn’t; it simply says our works have no merit to justify us before God.
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spiderweb
Guest
Of course the CC adheres to the Council of Orange. God makes the first move as an act of grace. Just like causing it to rain during a draught would be an act of grace on God’s part. This Actual Grace is used to convert the person in order to have faith, be baptized, or whatever may be the individual case, but this is not Sanctifying Grace. If at that moment of grace on God’s part was Sanctifying Grace, then the grace received at baptism (article IX), Eucharist (article X), and confession/repentance (Article XI-XII) would be meaningless. They would not be necessary for salvation which would make Jesus a liar when he says they are necessary for salvation. The council of Orange in this instance is talking about Actual Grace, not Sanctifying Grace which is received at baptism, confirmation, eucharist, and restored through confession.
The grace received at baptism is God’s work. Yes we have faith that it does forgive sins and give grace, because we believe in Jesus. We have Faith that he is God and keeps his promises and cannot deceive. So on that ground I would accept Faith Alone. However, having faith in Jesus and in baptism does me no good if I don’t actually get baptized. My faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist will not save me, if I don’t physically act and receive him in the Eucharist. For many years I had faith that God could forgive my sins, but I couldn’t receive that grace until I actually repented and asked for forgiveness. Just because the grace is available (and by faith I know that it is), it also requires a work on my part in order to receive that grace.
I know we agree on this, but just to be clear on my part… The grace for any man to enter the kingdom of God is entirely merited by Jesus Christ. Grace is only available through and because of what Jesus Christ did for me and all mankind, period.
It is precisely for the underlined statement why I reject faith alone. In particular the works commanded by Jesus for us to participate in which are necessary for salvation (baptism, eucharist, confession), that it cannot be faith alone. The grace is merited by Jesus, but it can only be applied to us by our cooperation in faith by doing those works united with Christ and commanded by God. My faith in Jesus and the grace promised through those actions does nothing if I don’t participate in them. Thus James “we are not justified by faith alone.”
Also to say that our works cannot justify us before God, the same could be said that our faith cannot justify us before God. Our faith alone without cooperating in God’s works set before us would not save us either. As I stated earlier, I had faith that God could and would forgive my sins, but that grace of forgiveness was dependent upon my work of repentance and asking for forgiveness. Granted I was given Actual grace that led me towards repentance and confession, but it wasn’t until the confession that the Sanctifying Grace was restored.
Maybe the main problem for me on the Lutheran Confession at this point is that it doesn’t go far enough. I don’t completely disagree with it, but It seems incomplete unless I am still just not grasping the concept.
Q
QNDNNDQDCE
Guest
I don’t think it has to be that Paul uses any particular word to mean only one thing throughout his whole corpus of writinngs. I hope I didn’t give the impression that I thought that “law” can only mean the Jewish ceremonial law anywhere the word law appears in his letters. Rather, I meant that in Roman’s 3:28 when he says, “without the works of the law,” he means circumcision chiefly, and the rest of the law.
I think there is a distinction to be made in regard to the moral law. One is the moral law that all people have always been under, the commandment to do good. Then there is also the moral law as it was revealed to the Israelites through Moses. I will use the examples you brought up to show what I mean.
Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
St. Paul’s big point in this chapter is that is that it does not matter whether we belong to the Jewish people. What matters is what is in the heart. God has poured out his spirit on the gentiles as much as the Jews. If you are a Jew and do evil, simply belonging to your tribe does not put you in any higher standing then the gentiles. They had the law given to them by Moses. But having the Mosaic law does not make you better than the gentiles if you do not keep it. In fact, it makes you worse off, since it only increases your culpability for violating it.
St. Augustine–and I agree with him on this point–said that verse 14 refers to the Christian gentiles who fulfilled the moral law, moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit. Since Paul is speaking of those “Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts” (v. 15), it seems that he is referring to the prophet Jeremiah–“I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people” (Jer. 31:33)–who is of course speaking of the New Covenant. Even though the gentiles are not under the law of Moses, by the grace of the Spirit, they grasp the heart of the law (which is love), when the Jews themselves (apart from God’s grace) do not even keep the bare letter.
Rom. 7:7-9
7 “I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;”
Same thing here. The law here does pertain to morality, but not to morality in general, but the moral teachings of Moses. He is not saying that he was alive before the moral law, because the moral law was always there. But rather, the law was given by God to Israel in order to make sin manifest. But while Moses’ law brought their transgressions to light, it didn’t give them the ability to keep it. In contrast is the “law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus,” which he speaks of in the following chapter. “For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath freed me from the law of sin, and of death” (Rom. 8:2).
Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man circumcising himself, that he is a debtor to the whole law.
Here he has in mind the Mosaic law. Basically he is saying that being circumcised will not profit us if we do not keep the moral commands of the law. The same though is expressed by James, “And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all” (James 2:10). I guess the equivalent today would be if a Christian were baptized, received the sacraments, yet they lived a life of unrepentant sin. Going through the mere motions of ceremonies is not what God calls us to.
Anyhow, I take your statement that my “explanation resolves the tension between James and Paul only if…” to mean that at least we are on the right trail.
Q
QNDNNDQDCE
Guest
I think what you and Luther say here is true in so far as it goes. For the sake of clarity, could you please answer a couple questions? I want to be sure we are on the same page.
(1) In what respect is judgment on the basis of works? What does St. Paul mean when he says, “[God] will render to every man according to his works,” along with other similar formulations throughout the New Testament?
(2) Are works intrinsic to justification itself, or merely coincidental to justification (even if necessarily coinciding)?
L
ltwin
Guest
From the Pentecostal perspective:
No. Forgiveness of sins is part of salvation. Salvation can be said to be comprised of the following elements: election, faith, repentance, justification, regeneration, adoption, sanctification and assurance.
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). Faith is the assurance (or substance) and the conviction (or evidence) that God is real and that His promises are true. God promises us that if we confess our sins He will forgive us and reconcile us to Himself through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
For there to be forgiveness of sins, there must also be confession and repentance.
When the new convert repents. “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).
Baptism does save if one dies to sin, is buried with Christ, and rises with Him in victory over sin and death through faith. The problem is that people like to think of baptism as a ritual rather than as a lived experience that we apprehend by faith and obedience to God’s Word.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
sounds good to me!
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spedteacherita
Guest
Question in the realm of Faith Alone.
I became a Christian as an Adult - although my mom really was the instrument God used to plan the seed of faith within me all through my childhood. While I was taking membership classes in order to be baptized and be a communicant member I had a very strong faith. In any of your doctrines (Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox and any other faith tradition had the Holy Spirit already begin His work within me?
I guess I have always thought He was there working within me and bringing me along to the faith that I loved very dearly.
If you all think this should be a new thread, let me know and I will move it- otherwise I thought this would continue the discussion of faith .
In Christ’s love,
Rita
I became a Christian as an Adult - although my mom really was the instrument God used to plan the seed of faith within me all through my childhood. While I was taking membership classes in order to be baptized and be a communicant member I had a very strong faith. In any of your doctrines (Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox and any other faith tradition had the Holy Spirit already begin His work within me?
I guess I have always thought He was there working within me and bringing me along to the faith that I loved very dearly.
If you all think this should be a new thread, let me know and I will move it- otherwise I thought this would continue the discussion of faith .
In Christ’s love,
Rita
O
onenow1
Guest
Jesus Christ did in fact redeem all men by his sacrifice on the cross. He paid for the sins of all mankind, past, present, and future with His blood. He did His part, but He did not buy each of us a guaranteed foolproof, irrevocable ‘ticket’ to Heaven as some churches teach. He redeemed us and opened the gates of Heaven and gave us free will to decide for ourselves where we will spend eternity. He fulfilled ‘Objective Salvation’. Now we all have to do our part which is called ‘Subjective Salvation’. We must DO the will of GOD, and that is called ‘Works’. This is spelled out so clearly in Scripture.
Phil 2:12, “…Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” How can anyone respond to that one except subjectively? Did Jesus Christ really work it out for you? Rom 11:22, “See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity toward those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD toward you if you ABIDE in His goodness, otherwise you also will be cut off.” That says keep His commandments or you will not make it to Heaven, and will be cut off. 1Cor 9:27, “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected.” Paul himself, teaching that even he, with all of his faith, could still be rejected.
Look at Lk 6:46, "But why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say? Doing the things which Jesus Christ says to do is ‘works’.
My Opinion : Jesus gave us the opportunity to expunge original sin and other sins with baptism, faith alone would mean anything goes as along as you believe in Jesus, in the garden disobedience to God’s word a work toward evil thoughts when they hid from God.
God Bless
Hi Q,
With regard to question number 1, may I recommend the Hope of Eternal Life, the Lutheran Catholic dialogue statement, which covers the topic of Particular and General judgement, beginning at par. 62.
As for #2, depending on what one means by "intrinsic, but let me just say that the idea of saving faith necessarily includes good works. The Formula of Concord says the following:
Jon
I would agree with everything you said, until the last paragraph. Faith alone is not carte blanche for anything goes. All faith alone means is that the only way we access justification is by grace alone through faith. The alone only applies in terms of specifically recognizing the way we access justification, at least in the Lutheran understanding.Jesus Christ did in fact redeem all men by his sacrifice on the cross. He paid for the sins of all mankind, past, present, and future with His blood. He did His part, but He did not buy each of us a guaranteed foolproof, irrevocable ‘ticket’ to Heaven as some churches teach. He redeemed us and opened the gates of Heaven and gave us free will to decide for ourselves where we will spend eternity. He fulfilled ‘Objective Salvation’. Now we all have to do our part which is called ‘Subjective Salvation’. We must DO the will of GOD, and that is called ‘Works’. This is spelled out so clearly in Scripture.
Phil 2:12, “…Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” How can anyone respond to that one except subjectively? Did Jesus Christ really work it out for you? Rom 11:22, “See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity toward those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD toward you if you ABIDE in His goodness, otherwise you also will be cut off.” That says keep His commandments or you will not make it to Heaven, and will be cut off. 1Cor 9:27, “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected.” Paul himself, teaching that even he, with all of his faith, could still be rejected.
Look at Lk 6:46, "But why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say? Doing the things which Jesus Christ says to do is ‘works’.
My Opinion : Jesus gave us the opportunity to expunge original sin and other sins with baptism, faith alone would mean anything goes as along as you believe in Jesus, in the garden disobedience to God’s word a work toward evil thoughts when they hid from God.
God Bless
Lutherans would agree regarding Baptism:
Augsburg Confession.
Jon
Hi Rita,
You’ve actually hit it in the bolded. The Spirit works through hearing the word, etc., to bring people to faith. This is not something one can choose to do on their own.
Jon
O
onenow1
Guest
I agree Jon ! However the term itself can lead many souls to destruction.Tidbits : Matt 25:31:46. It is all about doing good works in this life. Then there is Rev 14:13, "And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, ‘Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them.’ Rev 22:12, “Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his works.”
God Bless
onenow1
Satin comes as an angel of light, and brings much darkness in words.
K
Koineman
Guest
This is kind of a tangent, but there is a major problem here. While it’s true that we are to live out our baptism, it’s also true that baptism is more than just a symbolic ritual. I say this because of the boldfaced part of your quote above, in which you make baptism’s saving effect conditional on being buried with Christ, which of course says that being buried with Christ happens before baptism. However, Paul says in Rom. 6:4 that we are buried with Christ ***through ***baptism, not before baptism. In the Greek, the grammatical construction is instrumental, indicating that baptism is the means by which someone is buried with Christ. That means the two things are happening simultaneously.
Q
QNDNNDQDCE
Guest
I see that my post you were responding to had an exclamation icon at the top. That was purely accidental. I did not mean to suggest any special alarm or anything of that sort.
I read through the relevant sections of “Hope of Eternal Life.” However, I note that the Lutheran party in the composition of this document is of the Lutheran World Federation, to which your denomination does not belonging. I imagine the LCMS would respond (if they have not actually done so) to this document in the same manner in which they responded to the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (to which appeal is made in “Hope of Eternal Life”), which they said was a capitulation on the part of the Luthern signatories. I am not so much concerned with what the LWF teaches (not that I didn’t appreciate the document) or what the LCMS teaches, but what you (JonNC) think. Do you agree entirely with the explanations laid out in the document you linked to?
Your answer to (2) avoids the question entirely. Saying that justification necessarily includes good works could either mean that they coincide with justification, but have no part in justification, or it could mean that they are included in the article of justification.
22] But here we must be well on our guard lest works are drawn and mingled into the article of justification and salvation. Therefore the propositions are justly rejected, that to believers good works are necessary for salvation, so that it is impossible to be saved without good works. For they are directly contrary to the doctrine de particulis exclusivis in articulo iustificationis et salvationis (concerning the exclusive particles in the article of justification and salvation), that is, they conflict with the words by which St. Paul has entirely excluded our works and merits from the article of justification and salvation, and ascribed everything to the grace of God and the merit of Christ alone, as explained in the preceding article. 23] Again, they [these propositions concerning the necessity of good works for salvation] take from afflicted, troubled consciences the comfort of the Gospel, give occasion for doubt, are in many ways dangerous, strengthen presumption in one’s own righteousness and confidence in one’s own works; besides, they are accepted by the Papists, and in their interest adduced against the pure doctrine of the alone-saving faith. 24] Moreover, they are contrary to the form of sound words, as it is written that blessedness is only of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom. 4:6. Likewise, in the Sixth Article of the Augsburg Confession it is written that we are saved without works, by faith alone.
The preceding part (on “The Righteousness of Faith”) is very clear that the authors intend to exclude everything from justification apart from faith alone. Let me ask a few new questions with the context of the Formula of Concord?
(1) Do you personally accept the Formula of Concord’s teaching without exception?
(2) Do you agree with the Formula of Concord when it says, “it is false and incorrect to say… [that] faith cannot justify without works; or that faith justifies or makes righteous, inasmuch as it has love with it, for the sake of which love this is ascribed to faith [it has love with it, by which it is formed]?”
(3) When James says that man is “justified by works and not only by faith,” does this suggest that works can be rightly said to play some role in the biblical doctrine of justification, or is he saying that works merely demonstrate that one has true faith, which alone saves, and not the false faith of an “Epicurean delusion.”
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