Faith and Works

[Duane1966]

That is not how English works. The two sentences – “John alone drank beer” (note the lack of a comma) and “John drank beer alone” – do not express the same meaning.

Agreed. Which is exactly why I said:

Change the order of the sentence to “John drank beer alone” and you get that there is no one else with John.

My sentence didn’t say that John was alone, it merely said that he alone was drinking beer. Perfectly traditional English, although perhaps a bit archaic. Written in a more modern way, which requires more words, the sentence would be “John was the only one who drank beer.”

I understood that the very first time you wrote it, and nothing I wrote contradicted about John, alone, and beer. Read what I wrote carefully.

Because the word in question is not ‘saved,’ but ‘justified.’ Neither Lutherans nor Roman Catholics hold that our initial justification comes by works.

We are saved by a faith that works through love. But our initial justification comes to us by faith alone (but not a faith that is alone), as also Trent teaches.

In your view is justification a process, or a one time event?

 

[fhansen]

And Luther mirrors Augustine when he says:

Jon

But it’s obvious here that Augustine separates faith from love wheras Luther simply refuses to, so insistent-or obsessed?- is he on the importance of faith alone. Augustine wouldn’t distinguish between true faith and any other kind, at least to the extent of maintaining that faith must of necessity include love. He wouldn’t say, “If faith lacks love, it is not true faith”. He would say, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing”.

I really think there’s a difference here worth exploring-and considering the reason why that might be.

 

[KjetilK]

In your view is justification a process, or a one time event?

That depends on what you mean by ‘justification.’ Our initial justification is not a process, and you cannot do anything to obtain it. But you can increase and live as a justified person, or forfeit your salvation.

 

[Duane1966]

That depends on what you mean by ‘justification.’ Our initial justification is not a process, and you cannot do anything to obtain it. But you can increase and live as a justified person, or forfeit your salvation.

And could you lose salvation by having dead faith, thereby in the end, not being justified? The answer to this question is extremely important.

 

[rcwitness]

But it’s obvious here that Augustine separates faith from love wheras Luther simply refuses to, so insistent-or obsessed?- is he on the importance of faith alone. Augustine wouldn’t distinguish between true faith and any other kind, at least to the extent of maintaining that faith must of necessity include love. He wouldn’t say, “If faith lacks love, it is not true faith”. He would say, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing”.

I really think there’s a difference here worth exploring-and considering the reason why that might be.

Here’s a thread with just this question…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=778190

 

[fhansen]

Here’s a thread with just this question…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=778190

Thank you. I see I participated in that thread. Doesn’t surprise me for some reason.

 

[rcwitness]

Thank you. I see I participated in that thread. Doesn’t surprise me for some reason.

You are funny!

 

[JMM1957]

Actually he is saying John is alone. John, alone, is drinking beer. Father K is drinking wine.
It is a common English usage.

Why do you get to change the sentence around, or in this case, change the meaning around. Simply because we say that faith alone justifies does not mean that charity is absent.

Except that while charity must accompany faith, it is not the charity that justifies. It is the faith that justifies. The charity is there. It must be there. But we are justified by grace alone, through faith.

We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, a faith the works through love.

Jon

James doesn’t say that works “must be there”, because he states that “faith without works is dead”. You can’t just presuppose that faith and works go hand in hand, because they clearly do not according to James, otherwise why would he have said what he did? You can make the claim that you are justified by grace through faith “alone” **apart **from works, but its simply not biblical.

 

[rcwitness]

James doesn’t say that works “must be there”, because he states that “faith without works is dead”. You can’t just presuppose that faith and works go hand in hand, because they clearly do not according to James, otherwise why would he have said what he did? You can make the claim that you are justified by grace through faith “alone” **apart **from works, but its simply not biblical.

But we are justified “initially” before we can do any good work. Justification has been freely given to us through Jesus.

The problem comes after we are freely justified, whether we endure in faith through the testing of our world. If we only have faith without works, His love is not in us. If we only have works, which we think earns us the grace of His justification, we are not thankfully and so receiving Him worthily. Once we believe and call on His name, we must follow His will. But we only can know Him and love Him because He first knew and loved us.

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. But we cannot go on sinning if we are to be judged faithful by Christ on the Day. Though we may sin much, we must turn just as many times.

 

[JMM1957]

But we are justified “initially” before we can do any good work. Justification has been freely given to us through Jesus.

The problem comes after we are freely justified, whether we endure in faith through the testing of our world. If we only have faith without works, His love is not in us. If we only have works, which we think earns us the grace of His justification, we are not thankfully and so receiving Him worthily. Once we believe and call on His name, we must follow His will. But we only can know Him and love Him because He first knew and loved us.

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. But we cannot go on sinning if we are to be judged faithful by Christ on the Day. Though we may sin much, we must turn just as many times.

Yes, I agree with that. I should have made that more clear.

 

[KjetilK]

And could you lose salvation by having dead faith, thereby in the end, not being justified? The answer to this question is extremely important.

Yes, of course.

 

[JonNC]

James doesn’t say that works “must be there”, because he states that “faith without works is dead”. You can’t just presuppose that faith and works go hand in hand, because they clearly do not according to James, otherwise why would he have said what he did? You can make the claim that you are justified by grace through faith “alone” **apart **from works, but its simply not biblical.

It is exactly scriptural to say that one is justified by grace through faith apart from works. Even the Catholic church teaches that we access faith in such a way. Michael, (rcwitness) in the post following yours, says precisely that.
He then goes on to say,

The problem comes after we are freely justified, whether we endure in faith through the testing of our world. If we only have faith without works, His love is not in us. If we only have works, which we think earns us the grace of His justification, we are not thankfully and so receiving Him worthily. Once we believe and call on His name, we must follow His will. But we only can know Him and love Him because He first knew and loved us.

I couldn’t agree more.

Jon

 

[fhansen]

You are funny!

Just old. Hey, that was 2 years ago! Guess my theology hasn’t changed much FWIW.

 

[JonNC]

No, that is the opposite of what I meant. No comma. “John alone is drinking beer” means that “John is the only one who drinks beer” (though others can be with him, drinking wine), just as “faith alone [initially] justifies” means that “faith is the only thing through which initial justification is brought about” (though works ans love can accompany it). And the love is not our own, but the Love of God which has “been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us” (Rom 5:5).

I stand corrected. And I agree.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

But the charity is not needed for justification in your view, so it could be absent correct? if you say no it can’t be absent, then it must be essential to justification.

James 2:24 You see that a man is** justified by works and not by faith alone.**

Of course it can, and often is, at least to start with. But if we are to grow in grace, charity is the fruit of that growth. Today, in my early 60’s, works of love should be a regular part of my life, more so than it was when I was confirmed at 15. I still falter, still lapse, which is why there is the constant need to hear His word, and receive forgiveness through the sacraments.

Jon

 

[JMM1957]

It is exactly scriptural to say that one is justified by grace through faith apart from works. Even the Catholic church teaches that we access faith in such a way. Michael, (rcwitness) in the post following yours, says precisely that.
He then goes on to say,

I couldn’t agree more.

Jon

I agreed with rc in post #128. My fault for not specifying initial justification from permanent (or ongoing) justification, I assumed we were talking about the latter.

 

[Duane1966]

Yes, of course.

Another question for you, and maybe one more after this . Could I go from being justified in God’s sight, to not being justified in God’s sight, because I choose to not do the works He has prepared for me?

 

[rcwitness]

Really, I’m happy to see as much common ground as we have with Lutherans.

I think the Catholic Church has Taught (interpreted) that “initial” justification has no part in any good work, since faith is necessary for all good work, and because justification is a grace which is earned by neither faith or the works which complete faith. Yet justification is made for us by the person Jesus! Jesus comes to us and we are confronted with a choice. We either believe or we doubt and call Him a liar. If we believe, we accept His justification already (which may have already been given us personally in Infant Baptism!). What follows is the new life in Him. This takes faith and trust in Him, and how He guides us (Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium). This takes personal faith to assent to the Holy Spirit’s guidance. This faith is attacked by the Devil, the World, and the Flesh. These are the believers enemies. They do not want us to live by the faith which realized our justification. But our enduring justification depends on us completing the faith which made us aware of the grace God gave us in Jesus.

We believe that the genuine works done in the life of a believer are not separate from faith, but it’s completion. Therefore, they (works of faith) can never be opposed to His grace, or they wouldn’t have been done out of faith, but from sin.

 

[KjetilK]

Another question for you, and maybe one more after this . Could I go from being justified in God’s sight, to not being justified in God’s sight, because I choose to not do the works He has prepared for me?

Yes, but you cannot go from having been initially justified to never having been initially justified by not doing the works He has prepared for you.

And that initial justification stays. Or else you would have to be rebaptised if you apostatised and came back.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but you cannot go from having been initially justified to never having been initially justified by not doing the works He has prepared for you.

And that initial justification stays. Or else you would have to be rebaptised if you apostatised and came back.

And yet we can lose our state of justice in any case.