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angel18
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very nice your comments moondweller, I really agree with what you say. hopefully God will always protect you and all your family. Amenhttp://freeimagestocks.com/content/11/dot.png
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AmbroseSJ
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First of all Paul didn’t speak English, nor did he use the word “practice” upon which you build an entire doctrine.
Second of all, my Bible says “do” not “practice”. “those who do such things.”
Thirdly, it’s all so much sophistry anyway whether someone “does” something or someone “practices” something. To make a big distinction, and then build a doctrine because of that negligible distinction is just unreal.
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david_friol_1
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Moondweller when you say this “The difference between the true believer who might walk in the flesh and DO an immoral act, and the unbeliever who practices such things, is that the believer’s sin is forgiven (via the cross of Christ), but the unbeliever’s is not”,
Do you mean that the believers sin is automatically forgiven without repenting of it?
Do you mean that the believers sin is automatically forgiven without repenting of it?
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moondweller
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The Greek word “repent” is metanoia, and it means to change one’s mind or change one’s direction. Peter told his Jewish brethren to “repent,” be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. IOW, to change their minds about Jesus Christ whom they’d just crucified, turning from unbelief to belief in Him for the forgiveness of their sins. The forgiveness of all of them (past, present, future) since Christ bore them all (past, present, future). A believer’s sins (all of them) are forgiven at the time (moment) of personal belief in Christ who bore them (all) in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24).
The message that the Apostle’s were sent out with after Christ’s ascension into heaven was:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Col 1:14 "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."God dealt with our sins (all of them), judicially, 2000 years ago through the sacrificial, blood sacrifice of His Son (Heb. 2:9:26; Jn. 1:29). The issue regarding forgiveness now is one of belief, that is, believing the message concerning the One who bore them. The, once for all, forgiveness of sins is a part of salvation “by grace through faith.” Through faith in Christ a saved sinner becomes a forgiven saint.
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moondweller
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Thank you, angel. And may God do the same, always, for you and your family. In this world we have tribulation, but we can be of good cheer because Christ has overcome the world (Jn. 16:33; cf. 1 Jn. 5:4-5).
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brb3
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You know Moondweller, you may ‘briefly’ sound convincing to those like Angel18, who hear you for the first time. But, when you start quoting scripture ‘outside’ your truncated, minimized Bible … you expose your ‘private interpretation’ errancy.
What is Rebirth … Moondweller ?
Does it extend, w/o exception til your/our final day/moment on earth ? If you say yes … then why did Christ ask Martha if she still believed ? Why would that matter be at issue for us, and covered in scripture … if Martha was OSAS, based on her FIRST BELIEF, and w/o need to PERSEVERE in LIFELONG FAITH ?
Why did Christ concern her [and us] with her PRESENT tense, ACTIVE belief ?
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brb3
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Did I not say Titus 3:5 applies to the NEW CONVERT REBIRTH situation ? Go back, re-read what I said.
You have cataracts (scales) in those eyes ? You consistently twist anothers Post to make your untenable case. You do not practice ‘ethical’ apologetics, and have been rebuked on this matter many times in past. You were caught plagiarizing another author’s work several years back, … and you never publicly confessed.
Until you bring ethical Apologetics to this Forum … we will continue to remind you of such offenses. Pleading OSAS, will not be a valid excuse in Catholic venues.
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PJM
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My Computer LOCKED up and I can’t find the post I want to respond too.
The Challange was issued to show where in the bible :love is a requirement"
1John.2: 10 “He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.” 1John.3: 10 “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother. v. 17] But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him”
1John.4: 20-21 “If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.”
**Matt.22: 37 "**And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
**John.14: 23-24 **"Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.”
The Challange was issued to show where in the bible :love is a requirement"
1John.2: 10 “He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.” 1John.3: 10 “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother. v. 17] But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him”
1John.4: 20-21 “If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.”
**Matt.22: 37 "**And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
**John.14: 23-24 **"Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.”
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moondweller
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Of course it does.
The spiritual is even greater than the physical. Can you be physically unborn, BRB?
When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden did God un-create them? Of course not. When one is born again through personal faith in Christ he/she cannot be "un-born again." Those spiritually “born again” through faith in Christ Jesus, it is revealed, are now “created in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10; cf. 2:Cor. 5:17). If God did not un-create Adam and Eve when they sinned, how much more will He not un-create us who through faith in Christ are now new new creatures in Him.
He didn’t ask her if she “still” believed. He asked her if she believed the words He’d just spoken to her. That is, He Himself being the resurrection and the life, and everyone who believes in Him will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Him will NEVER die (Matt. 11:25-26).
This was new revelation, BRB. Being a Jew, the only thing Martha knew about the resurrection of the body was what was revealed in Dan. 12:1-3. But now Jesus pointed to Himself as the power behind resurrection life - and that through faith alone in Him alone. And everyone who believes in Him will never die. Why? Because the life that God gifts the believer in Christ is “ETERNAL.” Hence: “will never die” (even if he/she dies physically, see Rom. 6:23).
Do you believe Christ’s words, BRB?
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ignatius777
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Oh course you cant be unborn but you can end the result of being born cant you?
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moondweller
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What does that mean? You can’t stop being human. You can’t enter into nonexistence.
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brb3
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Christ’s words … YES !! :extrahappy:
Your interpretation of them … NO !
Recall … we must ‘rightly divide the word of truth’. The Catholic Church does this. I could never fully understand scripture … w/o the instruction of the Church on the Bible.
You aren’t the ‘exception’ to the rule either. Until you accept the Catholic understandings … you will remain in your error.
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AmbroseSJ
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Nowhere in the Bible does it say “FUTURE sins are forgiven at the moment of personal belief.” That is a man-made doctrine wrested out of the Bible using preconceived erroneous notions. We ALL know that the Atonement of Jesus was for ALL sins, past present and future, so don’t try to cite verses saying that. No. I want a verse clearly saying what you say above which I have highlighted and italicized.
Prove your proposition with a clear Bible verse, not one you can falsely interpret that way because of preconceived notions or erroneous doctrines.
Every citation that you have offered is saying “all sins” which if they are indeed sins, then they have already been committed. You can’t be held liable for future sins, nor can you be forgiven NOW of future sins, as that is all a twisted man-made doctrine, which has no foundation in the Bible.
If I say all of your parking offenses have been forgiven, I suppose you would understand that to mean you can now park illegally anytime you want, since “all” ALWAYS means past/present/and future in your world.
Yes, it’s true that future sins, AFTER THEY ARE COMMITTED, can be forgiven too, but not until AFTER they have been committed, and ONLY with proper repentance. That is what the Bible really says.
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ignatius777
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I cant??? Really??? I have no ability to stop my own existence?
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brb3
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Re: the Adam/Eve circumstance.
Gen 2:17 “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, FOR IN THAT DAY that you eat of it YOU SHALL [surely] DIE.”
Adam / Eve, born ETERNAL children of God ---- did what Md ? They DIED !!!
Gen 3:19 “… till you RETURN TO THE GROUND, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, AND TO DUST YOU SHALL RETURN.”
So YES … those Born Again [Reborn into Christ] … can likewise Die ‘Spiritually’. If they [draw back, if they let their First Love grow cold, if their lamps run dry, if they fall from grace and refuse to repent, if they deny the Holy Spirit they once knew ]
Exihibit A … Judas the Apostate, -------- " better if he had never been born."
Your Create / Uncreate dichotomy … is not the operative reality. Birth and Death … is the Reality of the matter. Learn to ‘rightly divide’ the word of truth my friend.
2 Timothy 2:15 … Paul’s advice to you & all.
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PJM
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I suspect it depends on ones meaning and understanding of “being born again.”.
If one holds the blief that “Once born Again” one can no-longer sin [even Mortally]; then such a view is without biblical support. No one pasage can contradict another.
If one is only saying “once Blessed; always Blessed;” that is true. BUT again, our human natue is always strugling againt sin. Aceptance of Grace is an OFFER; not a demand, and we can always refuse it. Once grace is offered, accepted and used; additional grace is necessary to aid us avoid furture sin.
Judas was once Blessed and lost his soul anyway. Such can happen to anyone of us; thus we must be vigliant, prayerful, Obedient, humble and with God’s help; avoid Serious Mortal sin.
God Bless,
Pat
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Philthy
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Can I not leave you kids alone for a few days without you getting MD banned?! Wait until Pax finds out…then you’ll be in BIG trouble. Now what are we supposed to do? I guess I will comment on the utter absurdity of this response of his, though I regret his not being here to defend himself…
If you do, practice, perform, engage in, or act in a manner consistent with the behaviors listed by Paul then you jeopardize your inheritance in the KOG. Plain and simple. MD invents this idea that there is a “key word” in order to create an argument to support his preconceived notion that those who are saved cannot jeopardize their inheritance in the KOG.
“I warn you, the unsaved - but not you guys - don’t inherit the KOG”. That’s what’s known as a contextually useless comment and a waste of ink on Paul’s part.
Of course they have a choice - that’s the whole point: choose wisely because your choices can have eternal consequences. But MD misses this obvious fact (our choices matter) because his first priority is to preserve the notion that salvation (and our inheritance in the KOG) is instantaneous, complete and permanent at the moment one comes to faith. Therefore (in his mind) our choices CANT matter because the “permanent” nature of salvation would contradict them mattering.
Furthermore, every believer was once an unbeliever - that’s what the KOG is filled with: former unbelievers. You cannot say that unbelievers “will not inherit the KOG” - you can only say that they have not yet inherited it. That is why we…preach…the…gospel: so that unbelievers will become believers. It is mind boggling to me how far from reason and truth one will go when they have a preconceived notion through which they interpret even the most straightforward Scripture.
Blessings!
I submit that there is no “key word” here - there is only a key “idea”. And it is this:
If you do, practice, perform, engage in, or act in a manner consistent with the behaviors listed by Paul then you jeopardize your inheritance in the KOG. Plain and simple. MD invents this idea that there is a “key word” in order to create an argument to support his preconceived notion that those who are saved cannot jeopardize their inheritance in the KOG.
Notice how the term “unbeliever”( which Paul is so quick to use when discussing being saved (ie born again, initial salvation))is COMPLETELY ABSENT from the discussion?" MD has to continually reinsert it in order to frame the discussion according to his preconceived notions. From Paul, however, in the context of this discussion, there is no mention of belief or unbelief and the reason is obvious: He’s writing to believers! They are all saved believers in the church in the sense that they have “accepted Jesus as Lord” and have been baptized into the family of God. The several chapters preceding this chapter confirm this without question.
How uselessly preposterous!! First of all, the comment is described as a “warning” to the believers of the church. If true believers didnt practice such things and those in the church couldn’t fall into temptation to actually practice those behaviors to their eternal detriment, then why would he warn them??? It makes no sense at all. Again, MD’s interpretation reduces the comment to a senseless statement:
“I warn you, the unsaved - but not you guys - don’t inherit the KOG”. That’s what’s known as a contextually useless comment and a waste of ink on Paul’s part.
I do see, and I reiterate: what???
Of course they have a choice - that’s the whole point: choose wisely because your choices can have eternal consequences. But MD misses this obvious fact (our choices matter) because his first priority is to preserve the notion that salvation (and our inheritance in the KOG) is instantaneous, complete and permanent at the moment one comes to faith. Therefore (in his mind) our choices CANT matter because the “permanent” nature of salvation would contradict them mattering.Furthermore, every believer was once an unbeliever - that’s what the KOG is filled with: former unbelievers. You cannot say that unbelievers “will not inherit the KOG” - you can only say that they have not yet inherited it. That is why we…preach…the…gospel: so that unbelievers will become believers. It is mind boggling to me how far from reason and truth one will go when they have a preconceived notion through which they interpret even the most straightforward Scripture.
Please note how NONE of this is addressed by Paul - it’s not the topic at all.
Again note: I say nothing re: salvation (or baptism). What I have maintained throughout the thread is that Paul treats “being saved” and “inheriting the KOG”(1Cor 3, Gal 5, Eph 5, Acts 14) differently because they are different (although obviously related). That is my premise, and one that MD cannot handle! Instead, MD needs to create a straw man to attack because deep inside he knows his arguments thus far against what I have actually said are, to be polite, very weak.
Blessings!
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brb3
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Pax
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Moon in Christ,
That is all baloney, and a pretty feeble excuse for dodging a teaching tool used by Jesus himself.
God bless.
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Pax
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