Faith or work can save us?

[jcrichton]

Hi, P!

…well, Protestantism relies on reinvention of the wheel–something about the original Designer being wrong.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

continuation:

In regards to my comments on how Roman Catholics believe that the sin debt is not quite settled at conversion is accurate whether you like it or not…Therefore my statement was right on the money.

Regardless of whether your statement is on the money or not,

1. You don’t get to teach Catholicism, because you don’t understand Catholicism.
2. You’re trying to change the subject matter discussed because you can’t defend the idea of salvation by faith alone.
3. If you want to start another debate about what happened on the Cross, we can debate that any time.

You went on to say, “Notice that Jesus didn’t say, it is finished therefore you don’t have to do anything. He simply said, “it is finished.” What is finished? The part He had to play in our salvation. I agree.

Wonderful! Then the debate is over and you have acknowledged your original error.

We DO! have to do something once we hear and realize who Jesus Christ is. Once the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to the divine revelation that Jesus is the Christ, we are to BELIEVE IT.
Jn. 3:15, “ whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Jn. 3:16 “For God so loved the world …. That whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jn. 3:36 says, “He who BELIEVES in the Son has everlasting life…”
Jn. 6:47, says, “Most assuredly, I say to you he who BELIEVES in Me has everlasting life.”

That’s great. Then you agree that believing is a work which is expressed in works of love and righteousness.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Mara you went on the quote from the famous “falling away” passage in Hebrews 10. This passage is debated in Protestant circles too. Many of my brothers have bought- in to the Catholic line using this passage along with Hebrews 6.
I agree believers can and do fall away. In this Hebrews 10 case, though the writer was not giving a real example, he was using a hypothetical one. The new Hebrew converts were under great persecution and tempted to leave their new faith behind to seek shelter under the legal religion of Judaism. They were tempted to return to the type and shadow kind of rituals and customs they left, rather than enjoy the realities of their new and higher spiritual journey. How could they go back to practice the Passover, for instance, when their own savior became the final Passover? It would be a huge insult! …

On the contrary, St. Paul says:

1 Corinthians 5:7… For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, …

Therefore, since Christ has become our Passover, it is a great insult if we don’t keep the Feast. And this is confirmed in Heb 10:25-31

 

[De_Maria]

continuation
This is why the writer of Hebrews made such a big stink out of it when he said, “Heb 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he (the back-slider) be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Two things to notice in verses 29-31f. This potential Jewish back-slider,

The potential CHRISTIAN backslider. He is speaking to Christians of Hebrew descent.

insulted His savior by counting the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, a common thing …. He was not just any person, but one who was in covenant with His savior.

Correct. Thus, a Christian, saved by the Blood of Christ, who refuses to even attend the weekly Mass, is insulting God.

The passage goes on to say, “The Lord will JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” Who’s people? … His people! …

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

God’s judgment will be a terror to those who insult the Spirit of grace which He has poured out on His People.

What kind of judgment will that be?

That depends on whether you have been good and obedient or wicked and disobedient:

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

… we have only 4 to choose in the New Testament, as I’ve mentioned in other post. 1. The judgment of the saved. 2. The judgment of the lost. 3. The judgment of Nations. 4. The judgment over sin (the cross.)
This potential back-sliding Hebrew, has covenant with Christ and Christ will judge him at the Judgment seat of Christ, a judgment of the saved.
Moving on… I said…

On the contrary, those whose body is the Temple of God, have a Covenant with Christ. But if they destroy that Temple through sin, they will be destroyed:

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[tgGodsway]

My response is short because I’m on my I phone. You are right, salvation isn’t just a one time thing and then you passively wait for heaven. But now you have moved beyond the act of justification to the journey of sanctification, the saving of the soul.

 

[tgGodsway]

This is the call to become a student of God. The path is narrow and difficult and only few make it

 

[po18guy]

Tell them that Catholics hear, read and attempt to practice the entire bible. Each and every passage relating to our judgment before God relates to what we have _done_in faith and love. Every single one. Not a peep about faith or anything else “alone” as the European and American innovators preach.

Do not be derailed by the red herring argument of “either faith or works” as many will try to trick you. It is faith working through love which is judged. “Either this or that” arguments are specious and not valid. It is “Both this and that” which leads to approval by God.

 

[De_Maria]

continuation

Sacraments?..

That’s right.

really, please give me chapter and verse to that in the context of Romans 3.

That’s the problem with Protestants, they don’t realize that you must read the entire Scriptures in order to understand Scripture. They take one verse and make it a Doctrine, regardless of the fact that there are a dozen which contradict their interpretation of that Scripture.

But that is not the Catholic way. We understand all of Scripture because, brace yourself, Catholic Doctrine is the basis of Scripture.

Please show me directly that it says what you are saying in the above statement.

Sure. Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Note that only those who do the will of God, those who keep the Law, will be justified. Non-doers of the law are not even considered for justification and salvation. See also Matt 25:31-46. The Sheep did the deeds of righteousness, they were saved. The Goats did not, they were condemned. See also Titus 3:5 Which says, “We are not saved by the righteous deeds which we have done.” St. Paul’s assumption here is that only those who have done righteous deeds will be saved by God. Those who have not done righteous deeds are not even considered.

De_Maria, You impose ideas into the debate using scriptures that do not say what you are saying.

I think they say precisely what God is saying.

You went on to say…
True. But eternal salvation is something in which we must persist, or it can be lost: REALLY? BASED ON HEBREWS 6?
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO WHAT?.. REPENTANC OR ETERNAL SALVATION? … seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
You should read verse 7 and 8. It’s a little parable that gives a little clue. Here, I will quote it for you. Heb 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hm? I don’t see anything there which contradicts what I said. In fact, it confirms the Catholic Teaching and disproves your claims.

 

[Wesrock]

We would refer to it as initial justification and increasing or restoring justification, depending on the situation. Catholics do not distinguish sanctification in the way many Protestants do.

 

[tgGodsway]

I realize you come from a knee jerk theology where you see the word destroy and you impose the idea of eternal damnation, a thought not found in this context.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes I realize this Wesrock and it has caused great fear and uncertainty. The justification act is treated as a journey. This is a huge blunder.

 

[Wesrock]

It’s only been the consistent teaching of the Church for 2,000 years. shrugs Rather, this distinction between justification and sanctification is at the root of false doctrines such as OSAS or assurance of salvation.

 

[tgGodsway]

How so De_Maria?

 

[De_Maria]

Burning a farm field is actually a farming technique that will save the soil. Many times a farmer will deliberately set his field on fire to allow the soil to replenish itself with anticipation of a future harvest.
A believer who “bears fruit” is useful and receives a blessing from his God.
But a believer who does not bear fruit is NOT useful to his master and no blessing will come from his God. He is rather thrown into the fire of refinement, (Jn. 10) so that all of the briars and thorns can be burned off, leaving a changed person for a future harvest.

That’s not the metaphor which Jesus Christ uses. Let’s look at John 15:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Notice how the Father cuts off the branches which have no fruit. Their ultimate fate is not yet shown.

and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

But the Father only prunes the ones which have some fruit in order to make them more abundant. This second part fits the model you tried to provide above. But you did not provide anything for the first part.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jesus says that the Apostles have produced fruit and have been pruned. So, they are doing ok, so far.

4 Abide in me, and I in you.

But He still admonishes them to remain with Him.

As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Because even His Apostles are not saved if they abandon Him.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

He repeats the Teaching. Unless one remains in Him, one can bear no fruit and will be cut away and perish.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Because God will cut away all who bear no fruit, whether they be Christ’s Apostles or whether they claim to be saved by faith alone. If they bear no fruit, meaning, if they don’t do God’s will, they will be cut away and burned.

I will have to stop here. It’s time to go to work…
De_Maria, may God’s rich and abundant Life meet you in your midnight hour.

Ok, God bless you, as well.

 

[po18guy]

No Christian on the face of this earth believed what you have typed until 16th century Germany. Did Christ really teach that His Church would be radically reformed 1,500 years after His ascension? That sin had no debt? That sin did not affect one’s justification before God?

Nonsense!

A very mentally and psychologically disturbed Martin Luther invented those ideas, based on his psychological obsession with justification. May the Lord have mercy upon his tortured soul!

Still, someone has not taught you truthfully. Please try to forget the single verse proof texting. The scriptures are a seamless whole. To rip a piece out and claim to represent Christ is disingenuous at the best.

I do not question your faith or love. I question the false, man-made theology that someone else has taught you.

 

[SuperLuigi]

This post should be framed.

 

[Wesrock]

Burning a farm field is actually a farming technique that will save the soil. Many times a farmer will deliberately set his field on fire to allow the soil to replenish itself with anticipation of a future harvest.
A believer who “bears fruit” is useful and receives a blessing from his God.
But a believer who does not bear fruit is NOT useful to his master and no blessing will come from his God. He is rather thrown into the fire of refinement, (Jn. 10) so that all of the briars and thorns can be burned off, leaving a changed person for a future harvest.
I will have to stop here. It’s time to go to work…
De_Maria, may God’s rich and abundant Life meet you in your midnight hour.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 According to the commission of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

If you intend that this burning happens exclusively at the point of conversion, that is incorrect. “Each man’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it.” The day is the day of judgment, and a burning comes on that day in which the man’s work will be manifest.

 

[tgGodsway]

Correction Wesrock. It has only been the consistent message in the Roman Catholic view. This issue has come up before. If someone can give me a clear teaching from the Apostles on progressive justification, in light of the many examples from scripture where it is treated as an act, I may consider it. Last time all I got was spin and re-direct.

 

[De_Maria]

I realize you come from a knee jerk theology where you see the word destroy and you impose the idea of eternal damnation, a thought not found in this context.

Hm? So, if a man destroys the Temple of the Holy Spirit which he receives when he is justified, he is not condemned to hell?

Have you ever read in Scripture:

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

…for someone who purports to be obedient to Scriptures you do have a colorful vocabulary; do you not realize that your construct is flawed?

Either the whole world is Justified by Jesus Crucifixion or God’s Word is Wrong. Salvation on the other hand is gained only by the Believers:

3:16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 3:17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. (St. John)

The whole world finds Justification in Christ; Salvation, on the other hand, is found only by those who Believe; but not all who claim to belong to Christ genuinely belong to Christ: ‘Obey My Commandments.’

Claiming a “piece of it” saves no one!

Maran atha!

Angel